• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:21
CEST 11:21
KST 18:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!14Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch
Brood War
General
Best Games Kespa era BW General Discussion StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II ASL22 General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60
Tourneys
Escore Tournament - Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-6
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4458 users

The importance of production value

Blogs > Julmust
Post a Reply
Julmust
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden4867 Posts
April 17 2019 10:40 GMT
#1
Or: How I stopped being an elitist and learned how to love all esports

This past weekend I got an opportunity to go the LEC (European LoL league) finals in Rotterdam, as the TL office is just about an hour away by train. At first I was hesitant. I've never been a big fan of LoL, I've always seen the gameplay as slow and the fact that there aren't as many kills as in Dota makes the laning stage a lot less interesting. After thinking it over I decided to go, mostly to get to see Rotterdam. While I'd like to say I just decided to ignore my Dota elitism, I was definitely worried I'd spend the day being bored out of my mind. Walking in to the venue I had already prepped a bad excuse about not feeling well, so I could leave after the first game. That didn't happen.

The first sign of me deciding to stay came as we took our seats. We had seats close to the stage and the setup was interesting. There was no sound-proof booths which made the players seem more accessible. While I can see the problem with that, it was also really cool. Booths transport the players to another place as they walk in and, even if they're completely see through, I have to say that this "open air" solution actually made it feel like I was closer to the players. But that's not what I wanted to talk about here. I want to talk about the intro to the show and how it completely blew me away. It made me realize how far behind Dota event organizers are. How much better it could be. I'm going to start off by linking you the video of the intro, so you can make up your own mind:



Before you start saying "cringe" about the "EU, EU, EU" chant, I also want you to check out this video as the stream didn't properly pick up the audio level. Cause holy shit, that was LOUD. Goosebumps were had.

Then it got real crazy. Everything was so well choreographed. From the small details, like the blonde caster turning around with a light in his back, to players literally sprinting across the stage as they had two locations where the intros were filmed. Oh, I forgot to tell you the craziest thing: none of this was pre-recorded! Take a moment to appriciate how crazy that is. They pulled off that entire intro where they had to adapt to the lighting, positions of the cameras, graphics, players turning around at the right time, running around the stage. All of that. Live. That shit would be hard to pull off in a studio and they did it live on stage in front of a huge crowd. And all they had was one small mistake where a player turned the wrong way. And then the finale. The curtains fell and the teams were facing eachother. Oh my lord, just brilliant visual storytelling. That alone had me SOLD.

At the same time, I felt a bit sad. I realized that we're never going to see this kind of production in Dota. A key part of why Riot could pull this off is because they have a different approach than Valve. The players are well taken care of but the understanding is that they are available for this kind of media production. Valve would never demand that of the players which, in turns, means that they won't do it for any TO in Dota. Don't get me wrong, the cards they used for TI8 were very well made and even a bit personal, with players smiling, but it wasn't anywhere near this. Imagine if they would've used this concept for the TI8 finals. Have Chalice line up next to Notail/Jerax/Ana. Or Topson face to face with Maybe. That builds a storyline. Instead of that we got the same intro Valve had been using the entire tournament and a new player would have no way of connecting who would face off with who in the lane. There was no visual storytelling because Valve are scared to ask this of the players. Instead we get the same old "stand in a V formation and fold your arms" in every single tournament. No one is taking risks. And while risks might not always pay off, they push you to your limits.

In the end this past Sunday didn't turn me into a fan of LoL. Or the LEC. But it made me interested in the LEC. And I'll definitely tune in a few times next season.
AdministratorI'm dancing in the moonlight
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3272 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-18 18:17:09
April 18 2019 18:04 GMT
#2
@EU chants: Made the experience on a metal festival that it doesn't matter how much cringe whatever you're chanting is, if you're chanting it with 10k people and in the crowd the blood starts boiling and the adrenaline starts pumping.

It's a little scary as a German, not gonna lie

That being said every organizer who isn't utilizing that is wasting a lot of potential, I'd be probably hyped as fuck if I was in that crowd. I don't really watch LoL, but if you look at trailers (holy shit) and pre-shows LoL is way ahead and really on top of their game. It's a shame LoL games look so bland.

It's also a shame Valve barely invests any money at all here. Guess I'll have to continue watching LoL trailers and Dota games and hope tournament organizers in Dota continue to step up their game.
low gravity, yes-yes!
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
April 21 2019 01:06 GMT
#3
i believe tournament organizers in dota are in a weird limbo where investing any more into production bleeds them harder.
that's not to say they couldn't have done it before, but those were slightly different times.
they can't fill their stadiums and it's a self consuming cycle up until the point that it becomes relatively the same as starcraft 2.

simply, it's an entirely different ecosystem where the level of subsidizing makes it successful on some level.
i'm okay with dota being a game better played than watched, the only sad part being that more don't do it.

personally i'm not sold on dota having the same "visual storytelling", or the flash and business. the two don't work together the same because it's an extremely complicated game.
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-22 02:18:02
April 22 2019 02:14 GMT
#4
On April 21 2019 10:06 nanaoei wrote:
i believe tournament organizers in dota are in a weird limbo where investing any more into production bleeds them harder.
that's not to say they couldn't have done it before, but those were slightly different times.
they can't fill their stadiums and it's a self consuming cycle up until the point that it becomes relatively the same as starcraft 2.

simply, it's an entirely different ecosystem where the level of subsidizing makes it successful on some level.
i'm okay with dota being a game better played than watched, the only sad part being that more don't do it.

personally i'm not sold on dota having the same "visual storytelling", or the flash and business. the two don't work together the same because it's an extremely complicated game.

the amount of money riot and blizzard put into their esports production cant be understated. unfortunately this dota season really shows that.

about dota being better played than watched, valve has also stepped away from multiple compendiums a year thereby reducing the amount dota esports on front page and cosmetics, whereas lol and overwatch inject that esports stuff constantly into the client.

personally i think valve is being way too hands off this year, considering dota2 puts out way higher prize pools than csgo



and about open air games for dota2, it could never be done at a live event with casters, it takes too much away from the casting. its able to be done in league since its much more about the action than sly moves and strategies
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3272 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-23 12:33:44
April 23 2019 12:18 GMT
#5
agreed to open air casting, that shouldn't stop tournament organizers from involving their players and fanbase more in their pre-show.
Also I'm not sure I'd call it just hands off. There's a reason it's a common claim on reddit that Valve doesn't care, they aren't injecting money into the game barring the prize pools (which are huge, but get financed multiple times over by compendiums), whenever shit hits the fan Valve doesn't get involved until the shitstorm reaches epic proportions and they take the lion's share of everything the fanbase develops and monetizes.
I love dota, but the trailers are fairly simplistic in-engine trailers, the launcher etc could be in a much better state and patchnotes etc often leave the impression that the employees Valve has on Dota 2 count a dozen or less (not counting the staff for TI). Companies like Creative Assembly do more marketing for each of their 10$ DLCs than Valve does for Dota 2 over the entire year.

On April 21 2019 10:06 nanaoei wrote:
i believe tournament organizers in dota are in a weird limbo where investing any more into production bleeds them harder.
that's not to say they couldn't have done it before, but those were slightly different times.
they can't fill their stadiums and it's a self consuming cycle up until the point that it becomes relatively the same as starcraft 2.

simply, it's an entirely different ecosystem where the level of subsidizing makes it successful on some level.
i'm okay with dota being a game better played than watched, the only sad part being that more don't do it.

personally i'm not sold on dota having the same "visual storytelling", or the flash and business. the two don't work together the same because it's an extremely complicated game.

According to my experience that isn't true, I know multiple people that don't play dota at all anymore and still watch TI and occasionally a tourney or two. I'm in a similar boat myself, I watch roughly 5 times as much as I play.

Imo visual storytelling and flash and business are dependent on how much you invest into it and how continuously you provide content in that regard. Lol's visual storytelling has little to do with the actual gameplay, it's about establishing characters in media or lifting players up to icons.
Everybody after ti8 talked about how it was a beautiful storyline. The comics and the shortfilm contests are always fun. The stories are right there to capitalize, Valve just doesn't.

That shouldn't be everything casters talk about, but it's not like Tastosis can't talk about what a sick journey player xy had to this point and then give a decently deep analysis of the game. I can't see why this can't work in dota, especially since we have a bunch of casters like Tobi, Moxxi and Sheever who are shoutcasters and hype persons with fairly little ingame knowledge to begin with.
low gravity, yes-yes!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 39m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 110
BRAT_OK 60
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 611
Mini 407
Mong 213
Yoon 132
Sharp 62
ToSsGirL 52
Light 40
sorry 22
EffOrt 18
Larva 17
[ Show more ]
Noble 14
yabsab 14
NotJumperer 8
Sacsri 6
Dota 2
The International41374
Gorgc11853
Fuzer 298
KheZu47
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss1148
olofmeister1097
byalli718
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King151
Other Games
summit1g5337
ceh9459
crisheroes187
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 18
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1122
League of Legends
• Jankos1375
• Stunt612
• HappyZerGling94
Upcoming Events
Escore
39m
PiG Sty Festival
2h 39m
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs Zoun
Big Brain Bouts
6h 39m
Nicoract vs Neeb
TriGGeR vs ShoWTimE
CranKy Ducklings
1d
PiG Sty Festival
1d 2h
herO vs Krystianer
Solar vs Cure
IPSL
1d 6h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
2 days
Maru vs Shameless
Reynor vs TriGGeR
IPSL
2 days
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
The Patches Monday
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
KCM Race Survival
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-13
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
Escore Tournament S3: W7
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
META DYMY #4
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.