On July 29 2017 23:06 c3rberUs wrote:I myself don't like player comparisons across eras due to the differences in each players' eras like those you mentioned; number of games available, number of tournaments etc. Perhaps the reason NaDa's Proleague performance isn't celebrated as much in the recent era is probably because of the lack of the material; the hardware (I'm not too knowledgeable on NaDa's teamleague history though.) BoxeR would go on to be one of SKT T1's 1-2-3 punch and get them over the hump several times as the team's icon too but records of 2000-2002 teamleagues are scarce outside Korea so I can't really comment. I really do dislike the fact that people today don't regard non-OSL and non-MSL victories almost like null-void. I can't really base stuff on real Korean experience and Korean records like you but I've read ancient threads, from well before my time and I've gathered that the GhemTV SLs were regarded as major leagues back then. This is the reason why personally, I have YellOw as a champion (subsequently H.O.T-Forever.) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/48_GhemTV2003-2_SLI mostly did my 'research' during the dark days that was 2013 and while I've been able to unravel GhemTV, two other leagues were beyond my knowledge, the iTV Ranking League (this was the one in Incheon I think) and the older Game-Q Starleague where IntoTheRain and [z-zone]Byun made their marks. I don't know if they were 'major' enough during the days these two leagues ran.
My knowledge of team leagues before the creation of the ProLeague which aired on Ongamenet since early 2003, and Team League which aired on MBC Game since early 2003, is virtually non-existent also.
Most of the records are lost, but I have heard that even back in 2000, there were numerous team leagues such as KGL, KIGL, CNGL, and MPGL. Comprehensive databases such as TLPD does record a portion of what happened during those times, but I could find almost zero information on the prize pools, the major story-lines that went on during those times.
http://rumors.tistory.com/126
Enough, an all school player who later on ran a once famous Brood War site called Fighterforum, did try to do a comprehensive timeline of all the important tournaments that happened since 1999, but even he misses out on a lot of detail, and most of it is from memory, so I don't think it can be trusted entirely.
I don't think anyone can accurately portray exactly what went on when the professional Brood War scene was not yet fully developed, and was basically a collection of LAN tournaments, with no centralized body to record everything that went on at the time.
For example, APGL was supposed to be one of the biggest tournaments that happened in 2000, but there's literally zero information online on exactly what happened at that tournament. All I could find were little scraps of detail from the word of mouth, but I can't find a single historical piece that did justice to what St.Eagle, the eventual winner of that tournament, did in that competition with key details and the significance the tournament had.
So this should be how the timeline goes:
1999 ~ 2002: Something went on, but nobody has the full details on what happened. And I'm not going to make any assumptions based on a partial recollections.
2003 ~ 2004: Ongamenet airs the ProLeague, while MBC Game does their own thing with Team League.
2005 ~ : Both broadcasting studios share the airtime in a joint-hosted ProLeague.
MBC Game Team Leagues got closed down after early 2005, but these are the records of the best players (games played in the qualifying stages are not included):
1. XellOs: 23-7 (76.7%)
2. JJu: 23-12 (65.7%)
3. NaDa: 20-10 (66.7%)
4. iloveoov: 18-6 (75%)
This is the all time record for ProLeague one-versus-one games (NaDa's also boasted a very respectable two-versus-two record) before the start of Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 1, when the ProLeague schedule roughly doubled in number. Play-off games are included.
1. NaDa: 46-32 (59%)
2. Midas: 34-13 (72.3%)
3. iloveoov: 33-14 (70.2%)
4. JJu: 33-26 (55.9%)
So if we pretend that MBC Game Team Leagus are the Winners League of the past due to its similar all-kill format, and combine these two records, we get the following ranking:
1. NaDa: 66-42 (61.1%)
2. JJu: 56-38 (59.6%)
3. XellOs: 53-26 (64.6%)
4. iloveoov: 51-20 (71.8%)
Now, NaDa might have been past his absolute prime between 2003 and 2006, but there's no fucking way BoxeR, who had his prime way back in 2001, outperformed NaDa in any team league setting since 2003. Of course, BoxeR would pass up on huge personal sponsorship deals in order to attract sponsors for his team, which would eventually become one of the most successful e-Sports brand in history, SK Telecom T1 (previously went by the name of Orion/4U). Only a fool would argue against the fact that the creation of SK Telecom T1, one of the most recognizable franchises in the e-Sports industry, is basically BoxeR's doing.
However, with that being said, the actual driving force responsible for making Orion/4U/SK Telecom T1 so successful in the team leagues was iloveoov. Saying that BoxeR was more successful than NaDa in the team leagues due to being part of the powerhouse that was Orion/4U/SK Telecom T1, is basically like saying BeSt was more successful than Jaedong in the ProLeague because he did his part for his vastly more powerful team.
I wouldn't mind if you said that iloveoov was superior to NaDa in team leagues (which shouldn't be a surprise since the period we're discussing coincides with iloveoov's peak years as a gamer), but to say NaDa was not that good in a team setting during those years is a fallacy at the highest level. NaDa's team was in the ProLeague Grand Finals (the stage for deciding the best team of the year for 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 before the ProLeague changed its format) in 2004 (1st place), and we was responsible for carrying his team (the only player with two-digit number of wins with a record of 10-3) to a second place finish in the last ever MBC Game Movies Team League. So it is not as if all of NaDa's efforts were in vain in terms of championship titles for his team.
iloveoov held the record for the most number one-verus-one victories in the ProLeague until 2004 (which is to be expected because he was probably the best player from 2003 to 2004), then he got suspended from the ProLeague (for the entire duration of SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 1) for his double contract scandal. NaDa took this opportunity to take the title of the player with the most number one-verus-one victories in the ProLeague until the very end of 2008. Stork briefly overtook NaDa, before giving over the title to Jaedong in early 2009.
iloveoov (2003~2005)-NaDa (2005~2008)-Jaedong (2009~ )
These three players have the honour of being the only players in history to have held the title of being the player with the most number one-verus-one victories in the ProLeague for an extended period of time. Now, without iloveoov's ban from the ProLeague, perhaps it would have been a different story, but considering how much faster iloveoov was declining as a top player compared to NaDa, I don't think the overall picture would have been that much different. It would have taken NaDa a little longer to overtake iloveoov's ProLeague numbers, but it basically was written in the stars anyhow, considering the insane numbers iloveoov put out initially were not being backed by solid performances during the tail end of his career.
As for the lesser known individual leagues, Game-Q StarLeagues, from what I gather, were tournaments with a niche following due to the famous internet site that ran the competition. I think this was when BoxeR started to make a name for himself as a top player. However, as far as I know, they weren't open tournaments with qualifiers, which must mean they were invitational tournaments. I could be wrong though. Seems more like GomTV Invitational in nature, than GomTV Classics, if you get my drift.
It is the same for the GhemTV tournament that YellOw won. Unlike the other three GhemTV StarLeagues (including the one H.O.T-Forever won), this particular tournament did not have a separate qualifying stage. YellOw happened to win that particular invitational tournament like he always did. I think the 5th iTV Ranking Tournament that he won would be a better argument for why YellOw is a legitimate champion.
iTV Ranking Tournaments were not invitational tournaments, and were an open tournaments with a separate qualifying stage (the details of which are not always present on TLPD), which makes it a legitimate "StarLeague" in my eyes, rather than being a one-off invitational tournaments like Shinhan Masters, or GomTV Invitational.
I specifically singled out OGN StarLeague, KPGA Tournaments, GhemTV StarLeagues, and iTV Ranking Tournaments for a reason. GhemTV and iTV may have died out, and had less available finances than either Ongamenet or Gembc (later became MBC Game), but they did host an open tournament that all players were free to compete in.
NaDa has won nine open tournaments during his career, without needing to list all his numerous invitational championships. Of those nine open tournaments, three were hosted by iTV and GhemTV, both broadcasting stations that went bankrupt. Just because they went out of business doesn't change the fact that they once hosted open tournaments.
The best example of open tournaments forgotten in the history books from a more recent era would be the three GomTV Classics that took place between 2008 and 2009. However, I don't think these are truly open tournaments since teams such as MBC Game HERO, OGN Sparkyz, and SK Telecom T1 (except for S2) boycotted their players from entering the tournament due to political reasons.
I'm not trying to come up with a list of everything people won throughout their careers. I couldn't care less that NaDa defeated sAviOr in that weird Shinhan Masters tournament that took place right after OGN StarLeague. That was a glorified showmatch with a couple of players invited in. YellOw would be considered a bonjwa if we started to account for these kind of tournaments.
What is noteworthy about NaDa's accomplishments is that he managed to win seven open tournaments after competing in 14 open tournaments (WCG Korea used to be an open tournament until 2007, when it changed into an invitational tournament for the top players in the KeSPA ranking) took place. Considering he had to forfeit one of those open tournaments due to conflicting schedule, this is a mind-boggling achievement.
Even if we count the large scale invitational tournaments such as GomTV Invitational or WCG Korea that took place after 2007, or imperfect open tournaments like GomTV Classics to make things a little easier for modern day players, no player in history boasts such a splendid success rate in open tournaments.
Flash during his prime managed to win six open tournaments after competing in 15 "open" tournaments during his absolute prime years. Jaedong during his prime won six open tournaments after competing in 17 "open" tournaments.
If we disqualify GomTV Classics because top teams like SK Telecom T1 boycotted the tournament when Jaedong and Flash won their respective GomTV Classics, or WCG Korea for being an invitational tournament, the comparison becomes mute because the only competitions that were truly open tournaments during Jaedong and Flash's era was OGN StarLeague and MSL, and Flash barely won six after needing the full course of his career to hit that number.
|
The reason why I rate the open nature of tournaments so highly is because of this:
1) It is harder to organize an open tournament, while it is more cost efficient to have a showmatch, or an invitational tournament with famous names. We had endless supply of these kind of tournaments throughout the years, with none of them having any long lasting legacy.
SuperFights used to have insane viewership, and Snickers All Stars gave out more prize money to the champion than what the champion of OGN StarLeague used to get. However, without a long lasting tradition, all of them were forgotten as the years went by.
Of course, these open leagues hosted by iTV and GhemTV also failed to create a long lasting legacy, but they were created with the vision of being a product that was like the OGN StarLeague. Invitational tournaments and showmatches were never intended to be such things in the first place.
2) No matter how large the prize pool is, and how large the number of invitations, an invitational tournament always has that doubt of whether someone else, even if it is unlikely, could have won.
The best example of this would be KT-KTF 2003/2004 Premier League, which was one of the largest tournaments in history terms of overall prize pool and viewership, and invited every highly regarded player at the time, running the tournament under a league format which meant the players were less influenced by the brackets.
It seemed to be the perfect tournament, until you realize this one thing. They didn't count on iloveoov transforming from a nobody to the absolute best player in the scene in a span of less than six months. NaDa dominated this incredibly hyped tournament, coming close to winning the entire tournament with a perfect record (16-1). People learned nothing new from this tournament apart from the fact that NaDa by far the best player amongst players with a known quantity. The top three players of this tournament (NaDa, BoxeR, and XellOs) did not accurately portray the absolute best players of the scene.
The organizers of KT-KTF Premiership probably noticed the flaw in the tournament, and decided to add a qualifying stage to move away from the invitational nature of the tournament. The end result was that it the final podiums were more indicative of the top performing players at the time (July, GoRush, and NaDa), but the viewership took a big hit (one of the major reasons why the previous tournament was such a commercial success was because BoxeR reached the finals), and the league was cancelled after its second installation.
So this is why I always rate open tournaments over invitational tournaments.
|
EPT
