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The answer to me at the moment is no, but this is a difficult question that cannot be answered in one sitting. It's one we all struggle with our whole lives. It's a question everyone has struggled with likely since the dawn of civilization, when man started working together to form tribes. If I give a part of myself for the good of my community, it will most certainly benefit them, or so it is has been taught for a long time.
But my answer to that question is the opposite - Simply because I give a part of myself to a community doesn't mean that I have benefitted the community, nor does it mean I have benefitted myself in turn. It is not that I believe all acts of altruism are inherently bad, but I feel we as a society need to take a look around and analyzing the effects of all altruism. I do not deny that in various circumstances, it is beneficial. But the claim that every altruistic act is inherently good means you have acquired the knowledge and understanding of the effect your act will have on anyone it may come across. This sort of knowledge however is impossible to have.
The past few years I have been studying a lot about liberty. You could say I'm a libertarian, but I do not associate myself with the libertarian political party. I am a libertarian in philosophy which may play to my understanding politics, but does not lead me to align my self with a political party sharing the same name. Throughout this study, I've come across the idea that in order to fully understand the magnitude of one's decisions given to you through free will, you have to be able to know how that decision affects another by knowing every one of their thoughts attached to the idea. Seeing how this impossible to achieve if we're talking about every thought, it seems impossible that one should be able to understand completely the effect which their decision has.
This idea sparks a different discussion about free will, but in this discussion, I want to relate it back to altruism. If we're to consider the idea that altruism is in fact inherently good in all circumstances, then we must also admit that we have a complete understanding of the knowledge and memories of everyone it affects, or at least the knowledge and memories related to this thought. Again, we are able to obtain some thoughts, but to obtain all thoughts would require us to be in their brains which we cannot do. This leads me to believe that altruism cannot be inherently good, or at least any argument suggesting so should review or explain how we can obtain the complete set of thoughts of each person.
If we split altruism's effects on the Actor and Receiver of the act, it is still generous to say that it benefits at least one in either situation. If the Actor is to give a part of themselves for the Receivers of the act, but in turn sacrifices a part that may have a better long term benefit both for the Actor and Receivers, than any altruistic act though it be for the good of the Receivers, would be less good than the selfish the Actor may pursue instead. However, that also requires the knowledge and understanding of the effect of the act, which as argued above, cannot be determined with 100% certainty. Therefore discussing the idea that it has a positive effect for either Actor or Receiver no matter what is as foolish as assuming that it has an inherently goodness to it.
While I am pretty selfish when it comes to people, I understand the sentiment and ideas behind altruistic acts, and even agree with some. However, I feel it is dangerous to suggest that altruism itself is inherently good, and that each person should consider if they understand the effect their altruistic act has on another person. Simply because you believe it's better for them does not mean it will be received as such which in turn defeats the purpose of an altruistic act. To do something good for another in sacrifice for self, but only when the good of another is understood with enough certainty that the act is wanted.
What are your thoughts on altruism?
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What's a self and how did it get there?
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It seems to me that by inherently you mean empirically. You're right that we cannot determine the outcome of our every action, but I think more important is intent, because it lies in our control. Is the intent to act altruistically always good? I would say most of the time it is, because true altruistic intent means putting another's needs before your own, recognizing others as important as you view yourself. Knowledge and science can help guide altruistic impulses into being actually helpful, but I don't think we should devalue that original impulse, which can so easily be argued as a loss to oneself, in time, material, or whatever is being given.
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It's tempting to just draw a shark with a shield battery on its back and call it a Sharchon.
I don't think there is any civilization on Earth that is in fact altruistic. The altruism problem seems to be fundamentally hierarchical, or fundamentally one of hierarchy. Most (all) successful hierarchies are headed by hyper-aggressive predators who succeed by employing the enormous power available to them in the most efficient way possible. In practice what this means is that people with a lot of power gravitate to structures where the type of power they have is self-perpetuating. This is good for the agent in question and if not "good" then at least, optimal, for the civilization or hierarchy of which he is the chief.
Generally speaking people are cynical toward altruism because it's a self-defense mechanism for the weak -- at least this is the closest we usually get to legitimate "altruism". In crudest possible terms, altruism is a "don't rape me" device employed to afford predators a reason to select other potential prey. At a sociological level it seems like what we have is a massive shield battery proletariat (of varying complexity and freedom) and an aggressive "hostile" bourgeoisie channeling, at various levels, hostility either inward toward its own proletariat or outward toward other civilizations. Theoretically there's no reason that civilizations and hierarchies have to be divided by these oil-and-water type frictions, there's no reason that there can't be a sort of utopia of blended, varying compositions. Theoretically each civilization could be a sort of unity within itself and with respect to its neighbors, in the same sense that we can obtain 1 = 1 * 1 and 1 = 1 / 1; unfortunately it seems that in practice achieving this kind of internal unity is nearly impossible and then generalizing to a case of interacting hierarchies is even less probable.
Anyway, I say the problem is hierarchical because from an emergence perspective, looking at genetics and memetics, altruism evolves as a defensive mechanism for the weak against the powerful because the world seems to be unfortunately structured with an abyssal sort of economics in mind. What I mean is that as long as it's possible to develop faster in a structure of predator-prey relationships, nature tends to favor efficiency over elegance. Maybe this is coming to an end as it seems that there's a ceiling on predator-prey relationships -- today it seems we've exhausted the predatory potential of our resource set because any meaningful conflict between top predators leads to mutual extinction instead of individual extinction. Now that this is an environmentally assured phenomenon it seems that a continued race to secure additional, or relatively greater quantities of capital will eventually become a race toward altruism.
So maybe varying degrees of altruism at the heads of hierarchies rather than their feet will become the wave of the future. Of course the level of success humans have cultivating their own species as livestock is always an interesting question. It seems that throughout evolutionary history the potential for healthy humans to be the slaves of other humans has been limited. But with the advent of silicon-based computers and wireless technology....
Well I'm just winding around now. Frankly the only point in time when altruism will be truly good is when it's truly altruism. That means that the Warren Buffets, Carlos Slims, and Bill Gates of the world would have to elect an altruistic path perhaps for aesthetic reasons rather than practical ones (however likely this seems). The only realistic practical scenario in which I can see altruism emerging as a dominant ideology is one where the expected returns of predatory behavior are (perhaps substantially) less than the expected returns of benevolence. Unfortunately I don't have enough information about technology to think that things will end any way other than badly, but perhaps being human and being pressured by potentially superhuman forces will curb the enthusiasm of the leaders of humanity. I'm not an optimist, though.
Personally I think it's a shame that until now the only legitimate way to motivate human behavior is through appeals to "rational self-interest". Humans have no fucking clue what's in their self-interest, and from my perspective the generous applications of logic and rationality that tend to support this theme are almost always myopic and delimit themselves arbitrarily. My personal viewpoint is its all the concealed "game logic" of the extremely primitive survival instinct seeping through a reproductive consciousness that developed much later but accounts for most conscious processes and higher thought. In other words from a reproductive, rational, self-interested perspective you'd expect people to reason a lot more altruistically, but it seems there's a second insidious force that goes unidentified that taints reasoning and leads to the primitive, unconscious survival instinct repatterning thought processes. Instead of altruistic, reproductive equilibria we get more primal survival-oriented equilibria because survival patterns are in fact so much more deeply ingrained and fundamental.
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Cascadia1753 Posts
Mostly have issue with paragraph 5. First it seems to imply only that only the 2 directly involved parties are affected; this is not true. Society is social, and humans can be driven by emotions, therefore any act can spur future acts, even by those just observing.
You also seem to imply that because that because in some hypothetical where immediate selfishness might be better than immediate altruism, that the immediate altruism is "less good" and therefore possibly bad. For any situation there will obviously be a wide scope of good or bad actions, just because one is better than another, doesn't means its bad. And in the big picture, you are still saying altruism is good.
I would love an example of some altruistic action that you would definitely define as 'overall' being bad, or if you have one, bad to all parties.
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On July 13 2015 03:07 YokoKano wrote: It's tempting to just draw a shark with a shield battery on its back and call it a Sharchon.
You're right, it is.
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Well, I know for a fact that Hitler's life was saved by a priest when Hitler was a kid. He was drowning, the priest saw him and saved him. So there is an altruistic deed that seems beneficial but in fact is a complete horror because if that kid had died, around 60 million people would have lived. I think it just depends on the circumstances and the consequences of the deed,
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On July 13 2015 03:42 Tephus wrote: Mostly have issue with paragraph 5. First it seems to imply only that only the 2 directly involved parties are affected; this is not true. Society is social, and humans can be driven by emotions, therefore any act can spur future acts, even by those just observing.
You also seem to imply that because that because in some hypothetical where immediate selfishness might be better than immediate altruism, that the immediate altruism is "less good" and therefore possibly bad. For any situation there will obviously be a wide scope of good or bad actions, just because one is better than another, doesn't means its bad. And in the big picture, you are still saying altruism is good.
I would love an example of some altruistic action that you would definitely define as 'overall' being bad, or if you have one, bad to all parties. codependent relationships come to my mind.
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^Was the priest racist and anti-Semitic by any chance? Maybe Hitler wanted to do something in return. >_<
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This smells a lot like Hume and Gibbons.
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Well it is true from a certain angle, but I think its a question of finding the correct definition of altruism. If someone hypothetically thinks its good to help their kids (for example) by sheltering them, doing everything for them, padding them with styrofoam to ensure they don't get hurt on the playground, and hold their hand everywhere, no matter how old they get, then clearly altruism in that case is not good, it is actively harming the child's development as a free-thinking independent person.
But in theory you could say that that person is not *truly* being altruistic, because a "true" altruist would take the needs of the child's freedom into account instead of looking at things with one eye only. Thus I think that altruism must include a knowledge factor or it can degrade into truly absurd hypotheticals. To make it even clearer, you could imagine a person who believes God exists and that the afterlife is a place devoid of suffering, so he takes it upon himself to kill off the human race in order to end all suffering. Still altruism?
People need to do the most good based on knowledge of the situation and other people in order for it to be considered altruism. There is another problem in that, how do you argue what the "correct" interpretation of the data is, or what the correct path is? Probably you could involve a recursive element here; if you see long-term harm, eventually you will weed out what the problem is, what the correct interpretation is. In which case, true altruism is about persistence (and keeping track of results) in trying to apply knowledge about the situation to do the most good for all.
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the closest approximation to my views on altruism are discussed by Howard Roark in his climactic court room speech near the end of Ayn Rand's novel, The Fountainhead. The problem with the speech is that it is way over the top drama.. and of course it should be because its part of a novel.
for a less melo-dramatic and more scientifically regimented examination of altruism i suggest the book "Taking Responsibility" by Nathaniel Branden.
TL ; DR on those books : Self - responsibility, self-reliance, and individualism are essential to the well-being of society. Altruism can only exist once at least 1 human is able to produce more than they consume. wealth creation comes first...and Altruism is merely one of the many afterthoughts once that lofty position has been reached of producing a lot more than we consume. Altruism is a non-essential.
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This discussion puts me to shame. I'm amazed at how articulate people can be
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Now, before I'm investigated for having taken the un-American stand that sex is a minor department of morality, let me try to show what I think is morally important. Ayn Rand is a rhetorician who writes novels I have never been able to read. She has just published a book, For the New Intellectual, subtitled The Philosophy of Ayn Rand; it is a collection of pensées and arias from her novels and it must be read to be believed. Herewith, a few excerpts from the Rand collection.
• "It was the morality of altruism that undercut American and is now destroying her."
• "Capitalism and altruism are incompatible; they are philosophical opposites; they cannot co-exist in the same man or in the same society. Today, the conflict has reached its ultimate climax; the choice is clear-cut: either a new morality of rational self-interest, with its consequence of freedom…or the primordial morality of altruism with its consequences of slavery, etc."
Then from one of her arias for heldentenor: "I am done with the monster of 'we,' the word of serfdom, of plunder, of misery, falsehood and shame. And now I see the face of god, and I raise this god over the earth, this god whom men have sought since men came into being, this god who will grant them joy and peace and pride. This god, this one word: 'I.'"
• "The first right on earth is the right of the ego. Man's first duty is to himself."
• "To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men."
• "The creed of sacrifice is a morality for the immoral…."
This odd little woman is attempting to give a moral sanction to greed and self interest, and to pull it off she must at times indulge in purest Orwellian newspeak of the "freedom is slavery" sort. What interests me most about her is not the absurdity of her "philosophy," but the size of her audience (in my campaign for the House she was the one writer people knew and talked about). She has a great attraction for simple people who are puzzled by organized society, who object to paying taxes, who dislike the "welfare" state, who feel guilt at the thought of the suffering of others but who would like to harden their hearts. For them, she has an enticing prescription: altruism is the root of all evil, self-interest is the only good, and if you're dumb or incompetent that's your lookout.
She is fighting two battles: the first, against the idea of the State being anything more than a police force and a judiciary to restrain people from stealing each other's money openly. She is in legitimate company here. There is a reactionary position which has many valid attractions, among them lean, sinewy, regular-guy Barry Goldwater. But it is Miss Rand's second battle that is the moral one. She has declared war not only on Marx but on Christ. Now, although my own enthusiasm for the various systems evolved in the names of those two figures is limited, I doubt if even the most anti-Christian free-thinker would want to deny the ethical value of Christ in the Gospels. To reject that Christ is to embark on dangerous waters indeed. For to justify and extol human greed and egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil. For one thing, it is gratuitous to advise any human being to look out for himself. You can be sure that he will. It is far more difficult to persuade him to help his neighbor to build a dam or to defend a town or to give food he has accumulated to the victims of a famine. But since we must live together, dependent upon one another for many things and services, altruism is necessary to survival. To get people to do needed things is the perennial hard task of government, not to mention of religion and philosophy. That it is right to help someone less fortunate is an idea which ahs figured in most systems of conduct since the beginning of the race. We often fail. That predatory demon "I" is difficult to contain but until now we have all agreed that to help others is a right action. Now the dictionary definition of "moral" is: "concerned with the distinction between right and wrong" as in "moral law, the requirements to which right action must conform." Though Miss Rand's grasp of logic is uncertain, she does realize that to make even a modicum of sense she must change all the terms. Both Marx and Christ agree that in this life a right action is consideration for the welfare of others. In the one case, through a state which was to wither away, in the other through the private exercise of the moral sense. Miss Rand now tells us that what we have thought was right is really wrong. The lesson should have read: One for one and none for all.
Ayn Rand's "philosophy" is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a curious new phase in our society. Moral values are in flux. The muddy depths are being stirred by new monsters and witches from the deep. Trolls walk the American night. Caesars are stirring in the Forum. There are storm warnings ahead. But to counter trolls and Caesars, we have such men as Lewis Mumford whose new book, The City in History, inspires. He traces the growth of communities from Neolithic to present times. He is wise. He is moral: that is, he favors right action and he believes it possible for us to make things better for us (not "me"!). He belongs to the currently unfashionable line of makers who believe that if something is wrong it can be made right, whether a faulty water main or a faulty idea. May he flourish!
Comment, July 1961: Gore Vidal may not like New York Times' critic Orville Prescott, but he dislikes Ayn Rand's "philosophy" even more.
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leviticus 25:35, and if thy soulbrother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.
uh... yeah... get tucked rand.
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-I wouldn't take Gore Vidal's opinion on philosophy anymore than he would take Prescott's opinion on writing. -Vidal might have a point about Prescott letting his morals get in the way of his critiques, but it's a larger problem that too often artists abandon morality for the sake of art.
-People love to rag on Rand for being vacuous but Marx gets a free pass?
-"Capitalism and altruism are incompatible"- You would have to get very specific about what exactly is meant by this (in terms of who or what is Capitalistic or altruistic), but, if we assume that America is "very Capitalistic", and Europe is less so, then at some levels you can dispute this because individual giving is greater in the U.S..
-"I doubt if even the most anti-Christian free-thinker would want to deny the ethical value of Christ in the Gospels. To reject that Christ is to embark on dangerous waters indeed." - An important insight. Every anti-Christian movement, from Hume and Gibbons to the New Atheists, have had to work around the obviousness of Christian ethics. This is difficult, of course, so they usually try to show that Christian selflessness is impractical, inefficient and gauche (as Hume did) or subtract the idea of ethics entirely, as the New Atheists do. (This also explains the pervasiveness of the bizarre phrase "I like Christ, but Christians aren't Christ-like enough". When have you ever heard someone say "I like Marx but the Marxists aren't Marxy enough" ? No. You are against Christ, you just don't want to say it.)
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highly vacuous materialism: pessoa, alberto cairos poetry. beautiful too. what's vacuous about marx? are you reading him through a camera obscura?
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On July 13 2015 07:37 Jerubaal wrote: -"I doubt if even the most anti-Christian free-thinker would want to deny the ethical value of Christ in the Gospels. To reject that Christ is to embark on dangerous waters indeed." - An important insight. Every anti-Christian movement, from Hume and Gibbons to the New Atheists, have had to work around the obviousness of Christian ethics. This is difficult, of course, so they usually try to show that Christian selflessness is impractical, inefficient and gauche (as Hume did) or subtract the idea of ethics entirely, as the New Atheists do. (This also explains the pervasiveness of the bizarre phrase "I like Christ, but Christians aren't Christ-like enough". When have you ever heard someone say "I like Marx but the Marxists aren't Marxy enough" ? No. You are against Christ, you just don't want to say it.)
Aren't the ethics that Christ taught mostly found in other philosophies too though? Things like forgiveness, altruism, compassion etc, seem to be taught in ancient Chinese, Indian, and Greek philosophies... and I'd bet many other cultures that did not have writing. I don't see why rejecting Christianity means rejecting those ethical values which are not exclusive to Christianity.
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On July 13 2015 07:37 Jerubaal wrote: When have you ever heard someone say "I like Marx but the Marxists aren't Marx[ist] enough" ? Spend more time with Marxists, and you'll hear this quite often, actually.
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On July 13 2015 08:26 zf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 07:37 Jerubaal wrote: When have you ever heard someone say "I like Marx but the Marxists aren't Marx[ist] enough" ? Spend more time with Marxists, and you'll hear this quite often, actually.
LOL
It's how we greet one another in fact. Sort of like dogs sniffing rear ends
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