EPTIn terms of ability I think he is the greatest, but not in terms of achievements.
The Process of Creating the Top 15 Greatest List - Page 2
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2223 Posts
In terms of ability I think he is the greatest, but not in terms of achievements. | ||
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oGoZenob
France1503 Posts
On April 14 2015 13:11 Shellshock wrote: is stephano in the top 10? If not, we riot | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
everytime someone says that they will "riot", I read as if they are threatening that they switch to LoL | ||
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oGoZenob
France1503 Posts
On April 14 2015 23:21 opisska wrote: everytime someone says that they will "riot", I read as if they are threatening that they switch to LoL oh geez no, let's not go to such extremes ! I'm only talking about burning their houses and hunt and impale them with pitchforks. It's much more humane | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
Edit: On April 15 2015 07:44 Cricketer12 wrote: he lost to squirtle after beating life who won 4 games mc seed DRG | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
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hyuu
163 Posts
On April 15 2015 03:32 Ctone23 wrote: I would have Stephano top 5. His run at the top was beautiful and he was truly feared by all who faced him. I remember the Korea vs The World showmatch at IPL (maybe?) where all other foreigners got crushed until Stephano came up and ran through each Korean until finally falling in a zvz, narrowly losing the showmatch. It was a true pleasure to watch him in his prime, even if some think it was more about balance, doesn't matter to me. Thank you i had forgot that Korea vs Rest of the world match He almoooooooost reverse all kill korea composed of Life, MC, Squirtle, DRG, Seed I remember seeing those on tilt, too bad i couldn't found the vod that was so so sick | ||
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
On April 15 2015 04:59 hyuu wrote: Thank you i had forgot that Korea vs Rest of the world match He almoooooooost reverse all kill korea composed of Life, MC, Squirtle, DRG, Seed I remember seeing those on tilt, too bad i couldn't found the vod that was so so sick Ah thanks for that! Looks like I mis-remembered the match he lost but yeah that was some bad ass play regardless | ||
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s.a.y
Croatia3840 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On April 15 2015 03:32 Ctone23 wrote: I would have Stephano top 5. His run at the top was beautiful and he was truly feared by all who faced him. I remember the Korea vs The World showmatch at IPL (maybe?) where all other foreigners got crushed until Stephano came up and ran through each Korean until finally falling in a zvz, narrowly losing the showmatch. It was a true pleasure to watch him in his prime, even if some think it was more about balance, doesn't matter to me. he lost to squirtle after beating life who won 4 games mc seed DRG | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
 and congratz on the work and everything you've done on TL ! | ||
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
On April 14 2015 17:36 opisska wrote: The fact alone that you judge people based on "the meta", which is mostly a thing that exists only in the minds of TL posters and whiny foreigners makes your ranking irrelevant. It's almost sad how much work and passion you have invested into it only to become only an extremely sophisticated version of "I like those players the most". Your "tiering" process has the same flaw as almost everything ever done on TL - it includes players who are relevant only because of their success outside Korea and taking them into account increases the relevance of the foreign tourneys in a circular argument. But one should not be just negative. I am not willing to put in 20 hours, so the example will not be as refined, but let's see just the rough outlines how would I go about such list in simple bullet points: - open the list of 1st/2nd places in GSL (excludng "special tournaments" because they are weird), OSL, SSL - identify players that are on this list at least twice. These are people that show a minimal required level of consistence in the only tournaments that actually matter: Nestea, MC, Mvp, Life, Innovation, soO, Rain, Maru, MKP,DRG - sigh with a slight relief that the list has 10 names so can be used without pulling other names from ass - sigh with a slight disgust that I have crafted the criteria so stupidly that MKP is on the list and Parting isn't - stare into the liquipedia pages endlessly to find more people that would push MKP and DRG out from top 10 - contemplate including 2014 "GSL global champs" to gain Parting but have to endure including Zest and lose all credibility - contemplate how everyone is so crazy about sOs who did not reach the finals even once, appreciate that Stuchiu put him 16th - be happy that Taeja is not on the list, even though the method was chosen primarily with this goal in mind - still contemplate how badly I want Parting to be on the list, why doesn't the greedy bastard win a GSL instead of collecting easy money around the world? Now it is getting hard and random: - assign points for the placements - 2 points 1st place - 1 point 2nd place - 1 point for any extra year your greatness spans (have a point from 2014? get a point if you have a point from 2012, get four if you were so good in 2010) - it is supposed to be of all times, right? (i call this "the lifeline ") Nestea 7 MC 7 Mvp 8 (yay!) Life 7 Innovation 4 soO 5 Rain 4 Maru 6 MKP 3 DRG 3 - be honestly surprised that the out-of-the-ass point system at least puts MKP and DRG last and relieved that it indeed puts Mvp first (after being a little scared by the discovery that he has only two different years) - see the need to decide tie-breakers - as it is "all times", tie-breakers are decided by length between points (guess why) - assemble the final list in the correct order: Mvp Life Mc Nestea Maru soO Innovation Rain Parting DRG Like your way better in terms of awarding points. At least it's systematic and quantifiable. A much more reliable methodology than stuchiu's. It's less arbitrary and give irrefutable 'evidence' as opposed to trying to justify why 1 run is more impressive because so and so kick ass or puma's 1-1-1 makes his win over HerO less impressive. This way it becomes opiniated instead of a systematic and transparent grading. One other problem with stuchiu's methods is that it favours greatly players who attends more tournaments. As they have more 'lives' to get a good run. If you are going to reward victories, you should also punish defeat. When you got your ass handed to you by a low tier player during a tournament, it should be detrimental. The best way to rank the greatest sc2 players in a systematic and palatable way is this. Take the weekly ELO ranking of all the players for the duration that they are active and not retired. Then average it out. The player with the with the highest average ranking is the greatest of all time. | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
I'd have to say something like Sniper beating Ryung is of equivalent or greater impressiveness than DRG beating Innovation. I made multiple degrees that made sense to me. I'd ignore the metas (Which you can call arbitrary, but ignoring them is equally or even more arbitrary), the increased talent pool, pressure of lans, technical isues, bad formats (Lucifron was coin flipped out of DH after a third tiebreak) Yes, it favors players who attend more tournaments, but it also favors players who did well in Korea. Maru outdid mutlple players who had 4-5 years of international travel with almost only Korean lans. I also did keep losing to bad opponents in mind. (Parting's WCG victory was a detriment to him). There is a reason we think of Nada as one of the greatest of all time. Even if we used ELO and went with pure statistics you end up with Midas > Nada in 2007. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/57918-clutch-engage. Yet if you asked anyone, they'd almost certinaly put oov, Boxer, July Yellow over Midas in a greatest of all time list there. Like I said, I hate the hard numbers approach. It takes away everything I think is interesting about the history, the legacy, the stories and the games of the players. You can disagree with me, but that's how I see it. I actually think that approach is way more biased than mine because it ignores large tracts of relevant games for even more arbitrary reasons than mine (Not in Korea?). I took every criteria any fan would think of when thinking about what makes greatness and balanced them. | ||
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
Just an opinion on the methology. Because there is a system that you put in place makes it feels like a scientific venture. It can pass off as being a definitive list based on your system. As it attempts to cover as many facets as you can think of. But in the end it carries as much weight as saying MVP is the GOAT because he won 4 GSL. It in itself is still an opinion no matter how much justification you add. A point system or rather a quantifiable system is an exercise to determine the GOAT based on whatever is the predetermined scoring system. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97277 Posts
On April 15 2015 03:42 Paljas wrote: I think we should ban Shellshock if Parting doesnt make it into the top ten he's just a scrub world champion and multiple gsl finalist. no way he's even in the top 50 | ||
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Nirel
Israel1526 Posts
10. Life 9. MVP 8.Cool 7.Tester 6.IntoTheRainbow 5.TheBest 4.HongUn 3.BitByBit 2.InCa 1.Clide | ||
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Shellshock
United States97277 Posts
On April 17 2015 23:55 Nirel wrote: O.k I did the exact same process, only I looked at every player that ever played Starcraft and came up with this list, took me about 100 hours btw, I'd usually say I don't believe in perfection, but this list is. 10. Life 9. MVP 8.Cool 7.Tester 6.IntoTheRainbow 5.TheBest 4.HongUn 3.BitByBit 2.InCa 1.Clide Cool behind HopeTorture? | ||
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