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LotV: First Impression

Blogs > midnight999
Post a Reply
midnight999
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States257 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-12 16:42:07
November 12 2014 03:31 GMT
#1
Overall, it looks pretty good, although a few changes to the currently listed features and game changes might not be so bad.

More info about it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/470781-legacy-of-the-void-announced

Campaign

It looks pretty damn awesome. I'm pretty excited to play it. The Terran campaign was mediocre, Zerg was better, and I hope this one follows the trend. The storyline is intriguing and the level design looks pretty good. I can't wait.

General Gameplay

Starting Workers: 12

Not sure how I feel about this. I feel like it's going to kill off/modify a lot of openings and strategies and I don't know if it will be for the better or for worse. Personally, there's no need to touch the amount of starting workers. Six was plenty.

Minerals per patch: It was 1500 before now it's 1000

I wish there were more minerals per patch because of how fast-paced the games are and how quickly the battles end. "Longer" economy (not sure how to phrase this) allows more room for interesting plays and come-backs, which will certainly make the game more interesting. I think lower mineral count is a step in the wrong direction.

Automated tournaments

This is ok, in my opinion. I'm not sure how this is going to interact with laddering, and the questions I have are the incentive for participating, region effect, and protection from maphacks, stream-sniping, etc. I can't really comment much without more info.

Archon mode (2 players control 1 base)

This is really good idea to get more people to play. Most people aren't good at Starcraft because it's pretty hard and playing with someone else who is bad as them or better can be fun or motivating to get into Starcraft more. I wouldn't be surprised to a ranked multiplayer from this. Nice job, Blizzard.

Allied Commanders

Reminds me of Spec-Ops from CoD, which was ok in my opinion. I'm not sure how dynamic it is and what you have to do, but it looks promising and can be good.


Terran changes

Cyclone: Locks onto targets, then deals high damage to the single target, has built in moving shot (moves about the speed of a stalker). "Very mobile and can lock on to deal more damage and move while shooting. Big range. Good early game"

This is basically the Diamondback from the WoL campaign, combined with the Warhound in HoTS beta (which was then removed for obvious reasons). I saw it in action in Blizzcon and it looks super-OP. It needs major nerfs and if that's still not good enough, it is not going to stay. I really don't like it and Blizzard should have brought back the Goliath instead.

Herc: Built from the barracks, can grapple onto target to get quickly into close range. Currently can one shot banelings and deal splash damage with an upgrade. Cannot attack air, does not deal well with armored units. Has high health and light armor type (useful vs Immortals)

Very interesting unit. That grappling mechanic can potentially lead to new and interesting strategies. In terms of attack, it's kind of like the Firebat from BW, which was a good enough unit. I like it.

Tanks: Can pick up seige tanks in seige mode with medivacs (has a unit animation)

Now, a tank drop is equivalent to a reaver drop in BW. There's nothing wrong with it, but Terran already has a good harass option with bio and it should have been Protoss who should have gotten the Reaver or something similar. It's good, but it seems misplaced.

Thors: Capable of self-repair (called emergency repair). Cannot move/attack while repairing.

I'm not sure how useful this is going to be. I don't think this is good enough to make them more popular in the meta and I haven't seen much Thor usage anywhere (I might be wrong here, I don't play or watch much SC2 nowadays).

Banshees: now range increased. Cloak comes default. Upgrade (available once fusion core is built) to make it move faster than any detection possible

Individually, the changes are ok. Combining all of them makes the Banshee pretty OP, which I saw it at Blizzcon. I highly doubt all changes are going to stick.

Battle cruisers: warp to anywhere you have vision (video suggests without vision, will need people on the floor to confirm). Teleport has a massive energy cost.

This is SORT OF similar to Arbiter's recall, and I like it because this give BCs mobility and make them more effective. I imagine there are going to be balance tweaks in the beta.

Overall Comments

I think Terran has received a lot of good changes and units. Maybe too good. Some changes will stick and some won't. Time will tell.I'm surprised there are no removal from the current line-up with the new units. Current Terran bio could have used a small nerf, and the MULE is still a stupid unit. I really would not have minded the science vessel or the goliath added back into the mix. Blizzard did it with the Lurker, so why not? Overall, Terran looks really fun to play, especially the Herc.

Zerg changes

Lurkers: Deals massive splash damage, as you would expect. Out ranges Photon Cannons, same Lurker model as hots campaign. Outranges all base defense structure (probably not Photon Overcharge). Spines move relatively slowly, so reactive micro possible (including the famous 3 marines killing 1 lurker trick!).

They brought the Lurker back. Good. Enough said.

Ravager: Morphs out of the roach, comes with a new ability 'corrosive bile' which launches a large artillery shot to a target location (see below). Small delay before the shot hits so allows for reactive micro. Corrosive Bile also destroys forcefields and damages air units.

Interesting unit and I'm really to see how it pans out. Breaking forcefields is fine, but there are no posted changes to the Gateway line-up to counter this. I'm not sure. It would be cool to see another "real" artillery unit.

Nydus worm: Now invisible while burrowing and invulnerable while emerging. Not even detectable by cannons. Allows for aggressive Nydus Worm sieges.

I assume Hive is going to be required for it since this is pretty powerful, like the teleporting BCs. I like it because it keeps players on their toes regarding their bases and maybe comebacks.

Swarm Hosts: No longer need to burrow to launch locusts, can upgrade locusts to be flying. Blizzard made a point of saying that mass Swarm Host will no longer be a viable strategy due to lower spawn timers for the locusts. Locusts must be spawned manually.

I hope this is true, especially the massing part, because the Swarm Host is one of the worst units in the game and mass SH is really boring to see, to play with, and to play against. Flying locusts make me laugh.

Corruptors: have an ability ' caustic spray' to channel damage like a void ray. A few of them can kill a nexus in seconds

I'm not sure how this is going to work. It can be good, but it can also be bad. very 50/50.

Infestor: New ability: 'aggressive mutation' grants flat damage buff to friendly units (it is AOE)

Great support ability. I'm wondering if any of the current abilities will be removed/altered.

Overall Comments

Zerg received some good changes. Lurkers are going to be super-fun and maybe the Ravager. But I really like the most is the new Nydus and I'm itching to try it out. Other changes are ok. I also would've welcomed the Defiler, along with the Lurker. Overall, it looks pretty good.

Protoss changes

Disruptor: "moving land mine", builds from the Robotics Bay, can enter into an invulnerable energy state and after some time will detonate dealing massive AoE (disruptor does not die).

It's ok, I think. Looks really easy to counter in battle, but it can prove to be a great harass option. I still would have preferred the return of the Reaver though (because it's better, duh).

Immortal: Hardened Shield passive removed, changed to an active ability which absorbs damage over the duration of the ability.

Very good. Hardened Shield was THE leading cause on why mech in TvP is impossible to win with. I imagine balance tweaks like every other unit being changed.

Warp Prism: Now can pick up units from a distance.

Very interesting. More potent drops incoming. I like it. Might be a little OP though.

Tempest: Only attacks ground units and receives a speed buff, new long range ability 'Disintegration' that has deals damage over time (500dmg over 50sec)

Funny, I thought Tempests were introduced to counter Brood Lords. So Disintegration is a weaker version of Defiler's Plague. Whatever, this unit's been weird from the start anyway.

Carrier: Interceptors released to attacks in specific locations, moves quicker, 90sec build time. Can release interceptors all instantly and keep fighting even if carrier dies.

And why wasn't this introduced since the game's inception? With this, Carriers aren't garbage anymore and have indeed arrived.

Nexus: starts with 14 supply now.

Why (in terms of having 12 workers to begin with)?

Warping: takes 8 seconds now and warping units take 200% damage.

Ok? Replenishing the army is a little slower and players usually warp units in safely.

Oracle: Oracle also now has one revelation spell for revealing and detecting. Also new ability called Stasis ward, essentially a mine which when detonated by enemy units casts Stasis Field over them (i.e. unable to move, attack or take damage effectively taking the unit out of play).

Slap on Recall and call it the Arbiter, lol.

Photon Overcharge: Shoots Ground Only

Good, but then the Banshee changes may be too extreme.

Overall Comments

With Protoss, there's ups and downs. Disruptor can be good, but time will tell. I'm stoked to try out the new Warp Prism. Good changes, like the Immortal, Carrier, Planetary Nexus, are good, but they should've been introduced earlier. Other changes are useless. No Reaver? I'm offended, since the Lurker's given a shot. I'm surprised that the Gateway composition has zero changes, given the Warp changes. I would think that I would save the best for last, but sadly, it doesn't seem to be case here.


Final Comments

Legacy of the Void looks really promising, with the campaign and new game modes. However, there are changes that seem to be in the wrong direction, such as the economy. Race changes range from very good to satisfactory. On a more pessimistic note, this is the last chance Blizzard has to make SC2 good. Otherwise, it is going to fall off the face of the earth (very slowly, but surely). WoL got bad at the end of 2012, HoTS has gotten a bit better after that, and balance changes they made are overall, mediocre at best. In terms of tournaments, the new WCS system they introduced a year ago was sloppy and rushed. However, given what they said they are going to do, I feel more optimistic about it. I just hope they pull through with it. Also, they are going to enforce region-lock on WCS, which I hope will motivate other pros to play, particularly NA. I also how LotV is going to be stand-alone, which is a big plus.

The game looks promising. I just hope Blizzard pulls through with it.

****
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
November 12 2014 04:49 GMT
#2
Yeah they need to modify the economy that forces expansion. But the 1000 minerals is a good step, they need to prevent turtling on 3 bases for 20 minutes, which this does. There is a better way to do it so that expanding is more beneficial as well then just replacing a base.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
November 12 2014 05:11 GMT
#3
I like that they are really throwing the kitchen sink at it and giving lots of opportunities for micro, but I feel like there may be a few too many active abilities.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-12 12:56:19
November 12 2014 12:50 GMT
#4

Nexus: starts with 14 supply now.

Why?


Well, 0.1 seconds into the game you have 12 workers out and a third queued so you're at 13/14 supply. If they didn't increase the supply on the nexus it'd be super awkward because you'd be at supply cap when the game started

Warping: takes 8 seconds now and warping units take 200% damage.

Ok? Replenishing the army is a little slower and players usually warp units in safely.


That mostly affects warping into peoples faces, as a protoss doing crazy all in's i used to have lots of reasons to warp units within attacking range of enemy units (especially when they can't stop you from doing that because they are preoccupied and would die if they stood there getting shot at by the other units already there)

one example that comes to mind is years old 2 nexus FFE into ~36 probe 8gate zealot with total of 200 gas mined (if i recall correctly) which would be way less annoying for zerg if units took 60% longer to warp and took double damage for that whole time, considering you're moving out with like two units and trying to warp your army from scratch literally in his natural if at all possible
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-12 13:43:51
November 12 2014 13:42 GMT
#5
On November 12 2014 13:49 blade55555 wrote:
Yeah they need to modify the economy that forces expansion. But the 1000 minerals is a good step, they need to prevent turtling on 3 bases for 20 minutes, which this does. There is a better way to do it so that expanding is more beneficial as well then just replacing a base.

I think this is the wrong approach though. This limits how LONG you can be on X bases - not your income RATE while on 3 base (i.e. how quickly you can build your 200/200 army).

I think things like limiting how many patches and diminishing returns on worker count would do better to encourage taking more bases. Think about specifically why zergs need to be ahead in bases. Not because of how much gas each geyser holds, but because of how quickly you're able to mine (income rate). Maybe having more expansions that are only 4 - 6 mineral patches (or something funky with combinations of gold patches...).
Now, I'm not saying the reduction in minerals is bad - it might really make games exciting (as well as punish mule heavy play).

(edit, I'd also like to see some extra chronoboost function... like using CB on the forward pylon decreases the warp in time)
willoc
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1530 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-12 16:26:44
November 12 2014 16:26 GMT
#6
CC/Nexus having 14 supply is due to having 12 workers at the start of the match.
Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid!
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
November 12 2014 16:27 GMT
#7
On November 12 2014 22:42 y0su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2014 13:49 blade55555 wrote:
Yeah they need to modify the economy that forces expansion. But the 1000 minerals is a good step, they need to prevent turtling on 3 bases for 20 minutes, which this does. There is a better way to do it so that expanding is more beneficial as well then just replacing a base.

I think this is the wrong approach though. This limits how LONG you can be on X bases - not your income RATE while on 3 base (i.e. how quickly you can build your 200/200 army).

I think things like limiting how many patches and diminishing returns on worker count would do better to encourage taking more bases. Think about specifically why zergs need to be ahead in bases. Not because of how much gas each geyser holds, but because of how quickly you're able to mine (income rate). Maybe having more expansions that are only 4 - 6 mineral patches (or something funky with combinations of gold patches...).
Now, I'm not saying the reduction in minerals is bad - it might really make games exciting (as well as punish mule heavy play).

(edit, I'd also like to see some extra chronoboost function... like using CB on the forward pylon decreases the warp in time)


Well like I said imo it's a good step, but they could do better. I would rather have this change then nothing at all for example.
When I think of something else, something will go here
midnight999
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States257 Posts
November 12 2014 16:41 GMT
#8
On November 12 2014 21:50 Cyro wrote:
Well, 0.1 seconds into the game you have 12 workers out and a third queued so you're at 13/14 supply. If they didn't increase the supply on the nexus it'd be super awkward because you'd be at supply cap when the game started


On November 13 2014 01:26 willoc wrote:
CC/Nexus having 14 supply is due to having 12 workers at the start of the match.


What I really meant is why have 12 workers to begin with. 6 wasn't a problem.
midnight999
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States257 Posts
November 12 2014 17:00 GMT
#9
On November 12 2014 21:50 Cyro wrote:

That mostly affects warping into peoples faces, as a protoss doing crazy all in's i used to have lots of reasons to warp units within attacking range of enemy units (especially when they can't stop you from doing that because they are preoccupied and would die if they stood there getting shot at by the other units already there)

one example that comes to mind is years old 2 nexus FFE into ~36 probe 8gate zealot with total of 200 gas mined (if i recall correctly) which would be way less annoying for zerg if units took 60% longer to warp and took double damage for that whole time, considering you're moving out with like two units and trying to warp your army from scratch literally in his natural if at all possible


But I wouldn't consider warp-in at combat itself overpowered. I guess it's better in a way at you're discouraged to do what you've described, but to me, it's a bit weird.
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
November 13 2014 09:51 GMT
#10
On November 13 2014 02:00 midnight999 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2014 21:50 Cyro wrote:

That mostly affects warping into peoples faces, as a protoss doing crazy all in's i used to have lots of reasons to warp units within attacking range of enemy units (especially when they can't stop you from doing that because they are preoccupied and would die if they stood there getting shot at by the other units already there)

one example that comes to mind is years old 2 nexus FFE into ~36 probe 8gate zealot with total of 200 gas mined (if i recall correctly) which would be way less annoying for zerg if units took 60% longer to warp and took double damage for that whole time, considering you're moving out with like two units and trying to warp your army from scratch literally in his natural if at all possible


But I wouldn't consider warp-in at combat itself overpowered. I guess it's better in a way at you're discouraged to do what you've described, but to me, it's a bit weird.

it's been balanced around... now with warp prism harass and army re-max taking a bit longer I assume it frees up other balance possibilities.
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
November 13 2014 14:25 GMT
#11
Well that sounds rational and well thought of, couldnt really say anything to anything other than..

I just wish the ravager was a meleeunit more than anything else, it'd feel alot more zergy to me and it feels like it'd overlap with the roach a little too much.

Having it being able to walkover zlings like ultralisk or those aberrations from the campaign would really fit.

In the woods, there lurks..
LoneYoShi
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
France1348 Posts
November 14 2014 09:11 GMT
#12
On November 13 2014 02:00 midnight999 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2014 21:50 Cyro wrote:

That mostly affects warping into peoples faces, as a protoss doing crazy all in's i used to have lots of reasons to warp units within attacking range of enemy units (especially when they can't stop you from doing that because they are preoccupied and would die if they stood there getting shot at by the other units already there)

one example that comes to mind is years old 2 nexus FFE into ~36 probe 8gate zealot with total of 200 gas mined (if i recall correctly) which would be way less annoying for zerg if units took 60% longer to warp and took double damage for that whole time, considering you're moving out with like two units and trying to warp your army from scratch literally in his natural if at all possible


But I wouldn't consider warp-in at combat itself overpowered. I guess it's better in a way at you're discouraged to do what you've described, but to me, it's a bit weird.


I think the huge effect the warpin change will have - and that has not been mentioned by the OP - is how P players defend against drops from a terran. Right now, protoss players leave their bases almost empty, and defend drops with a PO and zealot-stalker warpins (at my level at least - diamond league).

This change will force P to adjust: either leave units permanently at home (taking away from the deathball), massing cannons to avoid a drop ever coming in (costing minerals, setting the P back and delaying the deathball), or warp units far from the drop to avoid them getting killed while warping in, but that will give so much more time to the terran player to snipe tech/pylons/nexuses/etc.

Or I might be completely wrong and it won't change anything. ^_^ Pretty early to theorycraft like crazy, but LotV is just so damn exciting !

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