And I am finishing an MA in Sociology and I greatly enjoy gender studies.
Its interesting really. Its almost like the false assumption that Gaming is a "male" space is leading to people being stupid on the internet. For some of these people its really just their male masculine space being invaded.
Wouldn't that be an intrinsical motivation and as thus not object of sociology?
First, the men that want to keep women out of gaming are fighting back, and fiercely. They are trying to keep the last vestige of male dominance. They are doing everything in their power to keep video games in the realm of the "old boy's club". They are fighting dirty, and are not afraid to fight dirtier.
I think you're getting a wrong idea about the male motivation here,
sure there's some of the "old boy's club" and misogynist's out there, but a large group is just average men that get upset when some SJW jumps in, condemns the game they play is moraly wrong and demand's change when they're more often than not not even involved in said game, and whenever said men complain they're suddenly misogynist's.
that's one good way to get people upset, and partly a contributor why this thing blew up so big.
I understand that, I never stated all men are motivated by misogyny. I stated "the men that want to keep women out of gaming". Not all men.
And I am finishing an MA in Sociology and I greatly enjoy gender studies.
Its interesting really. Its almost like the false assumption that Gaming is a "male" space is leading to people being stupid on the internet. For some of these people its really just their male masculine space being invaded.
Wouldn't that be an intrinsical motivation and as thus not object of sociology?
On October 17 2014 01:01 Silvana wrote: Excellent read, not like the weekly feminist crap article you can find on gaming sites. 5/5
Stay strong Riku!
I don't understand modern feminism either, but you don't have to say it in this blog thread, especially when this is a touchy issue for feminists as well. Whether or not the activists are going to do is irrelevant, putting down feminism in a blog like this is in poor taste.
Yeah my comment was really poor D: I didn't state what I think is crap or simply wrong (imo) in those articles; I should clarify but I'm lazy and not so skilled to put my thoughts into words (not even in Spanish!). So I hope I didn't offend anyone, and if I did... well you are right so I apologize ^.^ Lesson learned Silvana, don't jump into a discussion if you cannot contribute to it.
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Now that video games have been elevated to mainstream culture, we again see the battle of the sexes arise. Of course, prior to video games of today, the target audience for a large majority of games were males. I say 'of course' because well, men were the first to develop video games. It only stands to reason they would develop games tailored to their interests.
While I appreciate your reply, this section really bothered me. Females have been active in the video game industry for a LONG, LONG time. Just take a look at this game designer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Shaw_(video_game_designer) . She was designing games since before a majority of people on this site were born. It's not like women magically popped into gaming in the last decade. Of course, the history of women in computer science has been much, much longer. Grace Hopper is probably one of the most influential computer scientists in history, she invented the first compiler!
If you look back at the history of gaming advertisements, you'll find that generally include both genders, suggesting that the game industry initially believed the market to consist of both. Video games weren't initially just made by boys for boys. They were made by men AND women for both genders.
On October 16 2014 17:11 Meavis wrote:
...a large group is just average men that get upset when some SJW jumps in, condemns the game they play is moraly wrong and demand's change when they're more often than not not even involved in said game, and whenever said men complain they're suddenly misogynist's.
Perhaps I am not reading the right channels, but I rarely see this happen. In fact, the only times I can specifically recall something happening along these lines are women complaining that there are a billion race, etc, choices in one of their favorite games, but no gender choice, especially when gendered interaction aren't a main part of the storyline or gameplay. And, yeah, hey, sometimes it is too troublesome. I didn't complain when I couldn't play Fable 1 as a female, because I understood it would be a massive undertaking, but there have been a ton of games where having a female (or minority or whatever) choice isn't hard to add in.
Now, I'm not condemning those games and, in fact, I believe you'll find few people who outright condemn them for not having more diverse options, but I think that it is a worthwhile thing to bring up. Not all games will have female characters, not all games will have male characters, not all games will have walrus characters. It happens. However, it is important to discuss it when the huge lack of these options across the medium as a whole is leaving a vast number of gamers feeling like it is hard to find characters to relate to.
Maybe they aren't really enough of the consumer base (though many studies say otherwise), but talking about it isn't going to hurt anyone and, hopefully, will bring enlightenment on both sides of the issue.
On October 16 2014 19:47 Klonere wrote: When studying any sort of system like the games industry it is essential to look at it in terms of who holds power in relationships. In the gaming journalist paradigm the people who hold the power are mostly the publishers and their PR teams. They undoubtedly have the largest say in what appears on the frontpage of IGN/Gamespot etc, for better or worse (I don't mean that in the "pay for coverage/scores" sense more of the "they decide which questions get answered/who gets access" sense) The same publishers have a large say in what goes into games as well. It certainly isn't small indie devs/journalists with paetrons who are the holders of power and yet seem to have raised an incredulous amount of ire among certain sectors of the gaming community.
Yep, that's my belief. I didn't want to go into this subject in this blog, because it really is a whole different topic, but a certain movement has connected the two in a way that I find exasperating.
On October 16 2014 20:49 Kickboxer wrote: I wanted to dismiss your post at first because females usually don't realize just how obscene, vicious and sadistically creative the everyday abuse that goes on between males in the online environment has been since, like, forever (only in our case it's not called harassment but instead flaming, though there isn't really much difference between being called a slut or a cancerous faggot whose parents deserve to burn in a car crash after having contracted a variety of novel ebola strains)...
While I appreciate you sympathizing with me, why exactly would you dismiss my post due to my gender? My first game was Wolfenstein at the age of 5 or 6, I was trolling in internet chatrooms back at the turn of the century, and I've been playing online MMOs since I found Tibia could play on my parents' 56k.
Now, if Riku isn't a male or gender neutral screen name, I don't know what is. I HAVE been flamed up and down the internet and, yeah, I understand that's what it is like and used to participate in it myself.
So... why in the world would me being female make me somehow blind or immune to "the everyday abuse that goes on between males in the online environment has been since, like, forever"?
On October 16 2014 21:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: every software project i've worked on that was in trouble and required someone to pull an SC1 Bob Fitch rescue mission. it was a guy that locked himself in a room and only came out for food and water for 6 weeks that saved the project. i've never seen a female step forward to do it despite working with many dozens of female employees. its always a guy. and it is a voluntary position... no one wants to do it...
at the cutting edge of every new segment of the software engineering profession is the loner code warrior. the new entrepreunerial company does not exist without this animal in the employee ecosystem.
this is a reason men dominate the software engineeering aspect of the gaming industry. all important decisions about game design revolve around the core engine driving the game.
its not a simple matter of "men think women are incompetent" and trying to superimpose this template in the area of software engineering is an off base overgeneralized white-wash.
Wait... what? I mean, I am so freaking lost about what point you are trying to make. Are you claiming that females never work crazy hours and late nights, so that is why they don't "dominate the software engineering aspect of the game industry"?
That is just so massively absurd that I have no clue if you are just trolling or what. Perhaps that is your personal experience, but I've seen my peers, both male and female, be that person to put in those hours and work themselves to the brink of insanity. I really have no clue what you are trying to say, because I can tell you that it is much easier to note that women face way more bullshit in the technology industry from their peers and superiors than males do and it is a large part of why they leave the field.
That is a whole other can of worms, though.
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
On October 16 2014 22:45 iamho wrote: By the way, the video game industry isn't trying to "keep women out of gaming", so you can drop the victim complex. Companies just don't want to deal with people like you who want to turn everything into a war of the sexes, when none exists in reality.
Umm... "you" who? Because you clearly aren't talking about me, as at no point did I ever claim that the video game industry is trying to keep anyone out of gaming. Why would they? More people, more sales, more profit. It is silly to think otherwise.
The only thing I have been a "victim" of is direct harassment and death threats.
Thanks for keep a good discussion going, you all. I really appreciate such thoughtful comments on this, even if I may not agree with all of them! (Truthfully, it's why I haven't ever transitioned to a different site to write my personal musings, the community here is just so good for intelligent discussion and debate)
On October 17 2014 05:02 Riku wrote: While I appreciate your reply, this section really bothered me. Females have been active in the video game industry for a LONG, LONG time. Just take a look at this game designer
who hired Carol Shaw back in 1980? while Ms. Shaw deserves some credit for River Raid, the algorithm behind the map generation process that makes River Raid a great game is not hers. she still deserves credit for finding a really unusual application for it.
having a parent who is a software engineer provides a big advantage to a child who wishes to become a software engineer.
i had no such advantage. in fact, every guy on the floor of my residence came from a house with 2 parents. i was the only kid from a divorce who lived in an apartment. rather than worry about any of that i just buried myself in math and physics... which was hella fun...and here i am a professional engineer ... against all odds.
i went to a co-op school. the last thing i would ever do is mention any of these "environmental factors' while in interviews for co-op jobs. i just shut up. its a great strategy.
everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages as they plot their path through their career. the #1 determining factor is how hard you try to succeed at the given task at hand.
the sons of fathers who were software engineers often become software engineers themselves. and, yet the daughters of moms who were software engineers go on to become ...
in order to get hired as a software engineer in a cutting edge company like Activision you need a pretty high powered education.
the # of children a woman has is inversely proportional with the amount of education she has.
how many children did Carol Shaw have? i'm betting none.
i recommend shutting up and pressing forward. its a great strategy.
On October 17 2014 05:02 Riku wrote: While I appreciate your reply, this section really bothered me. Females have been active in the video game industry for a LONG, LONG time. Just take a look at this game designer
who hired Carol Shaw back in 1980? while Ms. Shaw deserves some credit for River Raid, the algorithm behind the map generation process that makes River Raid a great game is not hers. she still deserves credit for finding a really unusual application for it.
having a parent who is a software engineer provides a big advantage to a child who wishes to become a software engineer.
i had no such advantage. in fact, every guy on the floor of my residence came from a house with 2 parents. i was the only kid from a divorce who lived in an apartment. rather than worry about any of that i just buried myself in math and physics... which was hella fun...and here i am a professional engineer ... against all odds.
i went to a co-op school. the last thing i would ever do is mention any of these "environmental factors' while in interviews for co-op jobs. i just shut up. its a great strategy.
everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages as they plot their path through their career. the #1 determining factor is how hard you try to succeed at the given task at hand.
the sons of fathers who were software engineers often become software engineers themselves. and, yet the daughters of moms who were software engineers go on to become ...
in order to get hired as a software engineer in a cutting edge company like Activision you need a pretty high powered education.
the # of children a woman has is inversely proportional with the amount of education she has.
how many children did Carol Shaw have? i'm betting none.
i recommend shutting up and pressing forward. its a great strategy.
"BE: When you decided to go into engineering, being a woman, did your parents think that was odd in any way?
CS: No, I think they encouraged me. When I was in junior high and high school, I was good at math. I entered a bunch of math contests and won awards. Of course, people would say, "Gee, you're good at math — for a girl." That was kind of annoying. Why shouldn't girls be good at math?"
BE: Did they mention anything about you being a woman as being something different or unusual at the time?
Raymond E Kassar - President and CEO of Atari 1980-1983
CS: Not when I interviewed. It was later. One time when I was working in the lab, Ray Kassar, President of Atari, was touring the labs and he said, "Oh, at last! We have a female game designer. She can do cosmetics color matching and interior decorating cartridges!" Which are two subjects I had absolutely no interest in, so…
BE: Did that bother you, what he said?
CS: Later, the other guys said, "Don't pay any attention to him. Do whatever you want to do." It wasn't like there was discrimination among the other game designers or anything.
BE: Do you think there's something different about you as a woman that made you choose to be a programmer when a lot of women don't?
CS: I guess just not really caring what other people thought about what I did.
BE: What advice would you give to young women or girls who might want to choose a profession in computer science or game design?
CS: If that's something they like doing, they should go ahead and do it. And not let people tell them that they can't do it. The main thing is find something that you like doing and are interested in.
edit: I hope JimmyJ is trying to say that your background doesn't matter for whatever you want to do, you just have to work hard and ignore haters. So as an individual ignore hate, chase dreams.
Except it's poorly worded like a rant. And he has these unnecessary gender stereotypes and "facts" about women.
Raynor suffers from what a lot of the men on this site do..I am sorry to say..and that is MAS. It is such a horrible syndrome, but once you understand the disease, and are able to recognize the symptoms, it can be quite entertaining. Here is a documentary on the subject.
Just remember everyone, denial is a symptom and confirmation that indeed... you too suffer from MAS.
But I think this "Archie Bunker-esk" attitude is out of date! You think women don't lock themselves in rooms and toil away at a problem until its done? You forget that women for decades have held at least 2 full time jobs: Their day jobs and running a household, to include RAYNOR YOUR MOTHER! A single mother is locked in her house with little contact to the outside world programming your brain for the real world.
If you all could step outside of your little boxes and actually see the world thru non prejudice eyes, understand the value of time and sweat equity that goes on unnoticed by BOTH sides, these gender wars would cease to exist.
Oh and most females realize just how obscene men can be to each other, we're no stranger to obscenities with you or among ourselves. All this nonsense needs to stop.
Some of the comments in here are equally sexist as what you describe, just skewed towards the positive end.That's what I dislike about the debate. There's clearly a sexual drive behind the interaction between men and women and it overrides logical behaviour that occurs when the subconscious sexual agenda isn't in motion.
I notice this in my own internet behaviour even though I'm totally aware of it. The fact that someone is a girl DOES matter. I feel I'm more inclined to have an opinion when a female is involved and that it skews more heavily into either a total positive or a total negative reaction. The problem is that people as a whole pretend to be more civilised than they really are, but as is obvious from male/female interaction in gaming communities, men are still evolutionarily programmed to try to stand out and make a lot of fuss when there's girls around (even when that behaviour is useless in an online environment).
I feel the real reason this is such a huge issue is that men have been taught in modern society to minimize this "loud" behaviour, instead investing in looks, knowledge and material possession as ways to impress females. But in reality there's still a loud monkey under the bonnet and it shows when anonimity is involved.
(Women have monkies under the bonnet as well btw, but they're more subtle)
TL:DR
Social evolution can't keep up with the rate of technological advances in communication, we're stuck with outdated subconscious drivers, crashes occur.
I'm fairly certain that this is a societal issue rather than a gaming issue, and is a woman who got disqualified from a cosplay costume for it being too risqué really the right person to (re) start this issue on tl? The way women are portrayed in video games is often sexist, but its no worse than in movies or television or music or any other form of popular entertainment.
On October 17 2014 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote: I'm fairly certain that this is a societal issue rather than a gaming issue, and is a woman who got disqualified from a cosplay costume for it being too risqué really the right person to (re) start this issue on tl? The way women are portrayed in video games is often sexist, but its no worse than in movies or television or music or any other form of popular entertainment.
Oh, it's definitely a societal issue, but that doesn't mean we can't address it within the medium that we are most familiar with.
Also, I've never been disqualified from any contest in the history of my life, so I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Regardless, why would my choice of costumes disqualify my opinion on the subject or make me not "the right person"?
On October 17 2014 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote: I'm fairly certain that this is a societal issue rather than a gaming issue, and is a woman who got disqualified from a cosplay costume for it being too risqué really the right person to (re) start this issue on tl? The way women are portrayed in video games is often sexist, but its no worse than in movies or television or music or any other form of popular entertainment.
Oh, it's definitely a societal issue, but that doesn't mean we can't address it within the medium that we are most familiar with.
Also, I've never been disqualified from any contest in the history of my life, so I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Regardless, why would my choice of costumes disqualify my opinion on the subject or make me not "the right person"?
Only because of how stupid this thread will probably get. Because I'm pretty sure one of your previous cos play blogs mentioned you getting dc'd because the nidalee cosplay was too risqué
On October 17 2014 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote: I'm fairly certain that this is a societal issue rather than a gaming issue, and is a woman who got disqualified from a cosplay costume for it being too risqué really the right person to (re) start this issue on tl? The way women are portrayed in video games is often sexist, but its no worse than in movies or television or music or any other form of popular entertainment.
Oh, it's definitely a societal issue, but that doesn't mean we can't address it within the medium that we are most familiar with.
Also, I've never been disqualified from any contest in the history of my life, so I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Regardless, why would my choice of costumes disqualify my opinion on the subject or make me not "the right person"?
Only because of how stupid this thread will probably get. Because I'm pretty sure one of your previous cos play blogs mentioned you getting dc'd because the nidalee cosplay was too risqué
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
Sorry but that is plain bullshit, the resources used for the links you posted are skewed and place anyone whos ever picked up an iPhone app for 20 minutes as a gamer, and that just isn't so, especially when we are discussing gaming culture with Console and PC games in mind, Men are the dominant audience for the games we are talking about, for you to use facebook games and those skewed statistics is a huge problem as to why people still dont get that companies like Blizzard or EA or Rockstar mainly cater towards Men, as much as you want to believe different, people who play Facebook games or iPhone apps are not gamers hell even if they play a ton of Angry Birds or Candy Crush, they still are not the gamers we are discussing when we are talking about games like Bayonetta or Zelda, they are 2 very disconnected groups, even the game developers are disconnected in these groups, the most Casual game blizzard has made is Hearthstone, and it is still male dominated at its core, it's aggravating when you try to call my mother a gamer based on those links and she will tell you are delusional...
play close attention the first half of what she says...
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
Sorry but that is plain bullshit, the resources used for the links you posted are skewed and place anyone whos ever picked up an iPhone app for 20 minutes as a gamer, and that just isn't so, especially when we are discussing gaming culture with Console and PC games in mind, Men are the dominant audience for the games we are talking about, for you to use facebook games and those skewed statistics is a huge problem as to why people still dont get that companies like Blizzard or EA or Rockstar mainly cater towards Men, as much as you want to believe different, people who play Facebook games or iPhone apps are not gamers hell even if they play a ton of Angry Birds or Candy Crush, they still are not the gamers we are discussing when we are talking about games like Bayonetta or Zelda, they are 2 very disconnected groups, even the game developers are disconnected in these groups, the most Casual game blizzard has made is Hearthstone, and it is still male dominated at its core, it's aggravating when you try to call my mother a gamer based on those links and she will tell you are delusional...
Alright, so you're saying use of the game types that I specifically address in my original post don't qualify as games in your opinion.
That's fine.
Could you please define what qualifies someone as a game player, including what games are "valid" and what what frequency they have to play these games to be considered?
And please reread these two paragraphs from my original post:
On October 16 2014 11:29 Riku wrote: I do believe that many games are intended to be played by both genders equally, but there has previously been a lack of compelling games developed with women as the intended audience, at least in the US. This led to the development of two sets of games, one which appeals mainly to just men and one which appeals to both genders. While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile. These platforms are not always regarded well by those who have been invested longer as consumers of the game industry. In fact, the term "casual" is often used in reference to these games, platforms and even those who are deemed "unfit" to consider themselves "true gamers."
To those outside this strange community, it may seem confusing why the term "casual" would be considered derogatory in regards to what most would consider a casual activity. Gaming is, however, very often considered an enthusiast's activity within the community; PC builds are discussed as fervently as much as some talk about car modifications, varying opinions of game play and opposing faction alliances are debated just as passionately as politics and religion, and the knowledge, experience and time dedicated to be able to wear that "gamer" badge is held as a bragging right. Thus, the influx of games and game players who do not uphold these same values, but are being grouped in the same category as these "hardcore gamers", has caused some of these "gamers" to lash out and protect what they see as their community and their honor. The unfortunate side effects of this are criticism of games which do not fit in their mold, attacks on people who challenge these definitions of "gamers", and protecting the exclusivity of their group with harsh words, threats and challenges to those who try to join.
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
Sorry but that is plain bullshit, the resources used for the links you posted are skewed and place anyone whos ever picked up an iPhone app for 20 minutes as a gamer, and that just isn't so, especially when we are discussing gaming culture with Console and PC games in mind, Men are the dominant audience for the games we are talking about, for you to use facebook games and those skewed statistics is a huge problem as to why people still dont get that companies like Blizzard or EA or Rockstar mainly cater towards Men, as much as you want to believe different, people who play Facebook games or iPhone apps are not gamers hell even if they play a ton of Angry Birds or Candy Crush, they still are not the gamers we are discussing when we are talking about games like Bayonetta or Zelda, they are 2 very disconnected groups, even the game developers are disconnected in these groups, the most Casual game blizzard has made is Hearthstone, and it is still male dominated at its core, it's aggravating when you try to call my mother a gamer based on those links and she will tell you are delusional...
Alright, so you're saying use of the game types that I specifically address in my original post don't qualify as games in your opinion.
That's fine.
Could you please define what qualifies someone as a game player, including what games are "valid" and what what frequency they have to play these games to be considered?
And please reread these two paragraphs from my original post:
On October 16 2014 11:29 Riku wrote: I do believe that many games are intended to be played by both genders equally, but there has previously been a lack of compelling games developed with women as the intended audience, at least in the US. This led to the development of two sets of games, one which appeals mainly to just men and one which appeals to both genders. While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile. These platforms are not always regarded well by those who have been invested longer as consumers of the game industry. In fact, the term "casual" is often used in reference to these games, platforms and even those who are deemed "unfit" to consider themselves "true gamers."
To those outside this strange community, it may seem confusing why the term "casual" would be considered derogatory in regards to what most would consider a casual activity. Gaming is, however, very often considered an enthusiast's activity within the community; PC builds are discussed as fervently as much as some talk about car modifications, varying opinions of game play and opposing faction alliances are debated just as passionately as politics and religion, and the knowledge, experience and time dedicated to be able to wear that "gamer" badge is held as a bragging right. Thus, the influx of games and game players who do not uphold these same values, but are being grouped in the same category as these "hardcore gamers", has caused some of these "gamers" to lash out and protect what they see as their community and their honor. The unfortunate side effects of this are criticism of games which do not fit in their mold, attacks on people who challenge these definitions of "gamers", and protecting the exclusivity of their group with harsh words, threats and challenges to those who try to join.
It's not a matter of definition, this is where your debate loses validity to people who are traditional gamers, the problem is when you have these people saying the world largest gaming demographic is adult women, and then telling us because the worlds largest gaming demographic is adult women, we have to change the way we make out PC and Console games for these women, who dont own any of these games they want us to change, do you really not see the disconnection here?
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