EPTI was going to write this out but I had enough to say that it made more sense just to record an audioblog of it instead. This was inspired by recent discussions of casting in the aftermatch of HSC and in particularly Destinys "fake hype" highlight.
HypehypehypehypehypeHypehypehypehypehype
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
I was going to write this out but I had enough to say that it made more sense just to record an audioblog of it instead. This was inspired by recent discussions of casting in the aftermatch of HSC and in particularly Destinys "fake hype" highlight. | ||
The_Templar
your Country52798 Posts
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
oh god this masterpiece theatre thing. Good talk~! | ||
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Vultcher
United States17 Posts
As you said, there are some bad casters and in the past we've seen an even higher number of bad casters - this is what I feel was being picked up on at HSC. It's basically the stereotype for casters in the way that stereotypes are only ever crude and often untrue. From my experience, the general outlook on casters is a positive one. inControl himself said that HSC being casted by players should show people the need for Casters as not just anyone can do it. What can be done to increase viewership for WCS and these other smaller tournaments? Will putting more production money in help or does there need to be more advertising? Or is it another matter entirely? | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
I guess the point is most professional casters, in any sport know when to hype and when not to hype and that's what makes things so special. And I've made next to no sense, par for the course then. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Big whoop. As for the calling games early. I still hear the regular guys calling games early as well, lol. Anti-hype is bad but some of the regulars do it as well. Anyway, I don't see why we have to rip on players who don't plan on going into casting games. It comes down to their expertise and that's what most people are after anyway. Their insight can be invaluable as long as they know how to articulate it, which everyone seems to agree with. | ||
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jakethesnake
Canada4948 Posts
One thing I would add in: the hype that comes from a caster needs to be genuine to that person as well. I think one of the things that people hated about HD back in the day is that it got to the point where it appeared that he didn't care about the game, but would hype the crap out of his broadcasts. It was obviously fake and it is irritating. Not lethal, but annoying. Unfortunately, the reverse also happens where people don't hype something that is genuinely exciting. For me that was the end of HSC. Sure, the games were lacklustre. Yeah, MC did not play that well - but there was stuff to be excited about. Taeja - a guy who has been talking about possibly retiring, who has struggled with wrist issues, just won $10K by beating a barrage of very talented players. That deserves something more than a joke and a conversation about WC3. I get that maybe the casters didn't care and didn't want to fake it - but then you shouldn't cast the finals of a tournament. Find someone who does care and who has some energy and excitement about what is going to happen. I don't want fake hype, but I don't want stoic monotone casting either. I want to listen to people who are genuinely excited about the game. That is what made the last few games of the Sandisk Shoutcraft seem much better than they were. Flash disappointed a little bit in the last two games after such a great start to the series, but there was more to be excited about then just another failed SCV pull. We were watching two of the best players battle it out, blunders and all. The genuine excitement in that cast is what really sucked me in to watching the very last seconds of that game, because even when the games started to feel disappointing, I was reminded how amazing it was to be watching Flash play a best of seven against herO. Anyways, all that to say, I think this was pretty spot on. And if you think that you have to be putting on some facade of hype, then please stop, excuse yourself, and let someone who is actually excited convey it. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
In any case the casters don't really affect me anyway because I don't need to hear them to understand what's going on in either case and that's where TB's mention of the casual viewer comes in, which is fine and dandy but that doesn't necessarily mean they know who guys like Artosis, Apollo, Day[9], insert other names here are either. Different strokes for different folks. Also, you shouldn't need reminding of Flash in a best of seven series. If he were producing like he does in PL then he would have made it further in other tournaments but that isn't the case just like many other players. Go figure. End of story: if these players were legitimately trying to go into casting, I might be willing to give them feedback, but I don't think that is the case so what's the point? Getting back at obnoxious fans? What do you think this will change? The people who were already on side aren't going to change opinions man and vice versa. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
A big benefit most of the casters there have is that you don't hear them often and aren't tired of their voices. Also the constant change makes me "coming back". For example i never watch the english WCS EU stream because i don't like Kaleris and Apollo as a casting duo. It is nothing objective or rational it is just not hitting my personal taste but at HSC i can come back a hour later and have completely different caster. On the hype thing i think that the game itself is kinda a problem here. If you look at certain matchups there are some were 9 out of 10 games are the same like TvZ and PvZ. So if you cast all day games that aren't that different (at least in the early stages) you might feel the need to create some attention or "hype" just to not say the same over and over again. Imagine a football announcer who has to commentate the last 10 games of Newcastle vs ManU in a row. He would also have trouble after some time to not hype boring stuff because he runs out of smart things to say. | ||
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
When i watched WCS yesterday, Apollo is very much capable to call a lot of those decisions but usually it happens in retrospect. "Oh he scouted that piece of evidence so reacted by adjusting like this" AFTER it had happened. Then you're like "oh i didnt really notice" because you were talking about some random stats to fill some time where i was thinking nothing exciting was happening. You're presented with the accomplished fact instead of being inside of the decisionmaking of a player. Thats what pro players are so good at in my opinion. They can make fun small talk in the beginning but realize immediately when the game is shifting towards one thing and players make slight alterations to their builds because the one guy scouts this and then reacts accordingly. They dont have to finish their stats report first before they can tell us about the scouting process that already happened. I think that makes the games feel more alive and much less generic if you are able to identify all the scouting skirmishes and their impact on the game. I dont agree that Flash vs herO is a much more quality game than MC vs Taeja. I think the big difference is that Flash vs herO doesnt happen in a long boX format and thus has more the novelty factor than seeing MC and Taeja who you see at almost any major tournament. Qualitywise I wouldnt say that the Kespa players are that much better in a foreign tournament format. They very much play a different game in Proleague with bo1 all the time. Their builds are super crisp and defined and they have very strong allins, which makes them look super above all the usual meta in other formats because they prepare the shit out of every map and every opponent. Something you cant do in a Dreamhack/IEM/MLG style of tournament. You need to come up with that stuff on the fly so it really is another disciplin to play a long boX. Its as much the same as a 100m sprint and a relay in athletics. About WCS: Every region has at least 8 top koreans that were very successful in GSL too before they left. I wouldnt say the quality at the top is much worse, they can compete with each other at Blizzcon more or less on even footing. Just because Flash competes in Proleague and Code A he isnt like one of the top players in sc2. I would argue that its the other way around. Kespa players rarely play on the highest level apart from GSL and if they do, they often lose their magic and dont look that strong as they seem to be in proleague. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3137 Posts
People who find themselves within the job that aren't at an even semi-respectable level should take it upon themselves to learn the game as much as they can through playing it at as high a level as they can manage. Anything else is a shirking of responsibilities and unfair to the fans. | ||
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LeeJohnDong
Ireland58 Posts
Myself and a number of friends couldn't actually watch it. Not only was the commentary (based on the final) absolutely appalling, the camera work from destiny was shocking bad. He focused on 4 zealots in a mineral line rather than the fight that was going on top centre in the 3rd game. also, the Cartman impressions need work. Maybe they were just tired..  | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
anyone have a good tl;dr ? | ||
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baiesradu
Romania150 Posts
thank you for what you do for starcraft e sports. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On June 11 2014 19:07 puppykiller wrote: Can't we keep it simple and say people who don't play the game shouldn't commentate the game? There is no covering up noobiness and it is always really obvious. There is such an abundance of players at high masters levels I can't accept the idea that speculatively they are all too socially awkward to perform casts and cannot replace current ones. All this casting technique in "how to cast vaguely enough so as not to seem like you were wrong" is just embarrassing... it shouldn't even be part of the conversation. People who find themselves within the job that aren't at an even semi-respectable level should take it upon themselves to learn the game as much as they can through playing it at as high a level as they can manage. Anything else is a shirking of responsibilities and unfair to the fans. Oh it's this old thing again. Some of the most popular sports commentators in the world who are paid millions of dollars a year to do the job have never played the game and the vast majority of play-by-play certainly do not play it now. Shockingly enough, the ability to talk and present is actually a marketable skill and something people train for, which is why almost all play-by-play commentators in real sports were broadcast personalities prior to taking up their career as a play-by-play commentator. Knowing the game inside and out is the job of the colour and analyst expert commentators alongside a whole host of statisticians backing them up on the production team. Being "high masters" does not make you an expert in anything. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
It's just that they don't talk about the notions that high-masters think about during the game because the audience isn't high-master. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On June 11 2014 20:34 Incognoto wrote: I think most casters are high-masters anyway. It's just that they don't talk about the notions that high-masters think about during the game because the audience isn't high-master. I have a theory that the vast majority of people who complain about "lack of analysis" are mid-diamond, they think they're good so demand analysis and in comparison to the majority of SC2 players they are kinda good, but at the same time they're also terrible at the game in the grand scheme of things. | ||
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myxoma_strain
United Kingdom371 Posts
On June 11 2014 20:42 TotalBiscuit wrote: I have a theory that the vast majority of people who complain about "lack of analysis" are mid-diamond, they think they're good so demand analysis and in comparison to the majority of SC2 players they are kinda good, but at the same time they're also terrible at the game in the grand scheme of things. The one that gets me is when pro players complain that casters aren't analytical enough. Isn't it their job to know this stuff? Why do they need the casters telling them it? | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3486 Posts
On June 11 2014 20:42 TotalBiscuit wrote: I have a theory that the vast majority of people who complain about "lack of analysis" are mid-diamond, they think they're good so demand analysis and in comparison to the majority of SC2 players they are kinda good, but at the same time they're also terrible at the game in the grand scheme of things. I do agree. What is mostly irritating is when a caster keeps making ridiculous calls but it rarely happens (fortunately). The point of a cast (to me at least) is to be entertaining for the broadest possible audience. Ponf & Thud for the French scene, Vasacast in Italian (even though I dont understand a thing, it s great to listen to, so much passion) and you of course, that's good casting. For analysis I watch day9's daily | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On June 11 2014 21:58 myxoma_strain wrote: The one that gets me is when pro players complain that casters aren't analytical enough. Isn't it their job to know this stuff? Why do they need the casters telling them it? Most pros I've spoken to only get annoyed when the casters make calls that make them as players look bad. Most pros also prefer play-by-play because they want their play to be hyped and appreciated, not picked apart by someone who isn't as good as they are. Casters control a lot of the perception of players, in my view their job is to support the players as best as they can and translate their actions into something that can be understood by a wider audience. The backlash against "hype" that has been happening recently is ridiculous and pro-gamers should be making it clear why play-by-play casting is both necessary and appreciated. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On June 11 2014 23:56 TotalBiscuit wrote: Most pros I've spoken to only get annoyed when the casters make calls that make them as players look bad. Most pros also prefer play-by-play because they want their play to be hyped and appreciated, not picked apart by someone who isn't as good as they are. Casters control a lot of the perception of players, in my view their job is to support the players as best as they can and translate their actions into something that can be understood by a wider audience. The backlash against "hype" that has been happening recently is ridiculous and pro-gamers should be making it clear why play-by-play casting is both necessary and appreciated. I agree I think play by play casting is the best kind of commentary (I am a GM Terran level btw, not mid diamond). If I can have the stream open and listen ONLY to the commentators but know exactly what is going on because of their descriptions of the game and play by play of the engagements (who the decisive winner ends up being and who loses what in big army engagements), I am content. One example of where this does not occur is the proleague done in english. Wolf MOonglade and Brendan sound more like casual observers in the game rather then actually commentating what is going on, and I can never understand anything they are saying, there's no point to it so I always just mute the audio whenever I watch proleague | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Preferably talking in his mother tongue. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Why was that cast so good? | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
I really enjoyed listening to this. The Shoutcraft games 'imo' were 10x that of HSC games, in part, due to the lag issues, but mainly because those Shoutcraft games were the highest level I have personally seen. I live near the East Coast in the US so I rarely, if ever, get to watch GSL. I hope you are able to do more of these, TB, those games were superb. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3137 Posts
On June 11 2014 20:32 TotalBiscuit wrote: Oh it's this old thing again. Some of the most popular sports commentators in the world who are paid millions of dollars a year to do the job have never played the game and the vast majority of play-by-play certainly do not play it now. Shockingly enough, the ability to talk and present is actually a marketable skill and something people train for, which is why almost all play-by-play commentators in real sports were broadcast personalities prior to taking up their career as a play-by-play commentator. Knowing the game inside and out is the job of the colour and analyst expert commentators alongside a whole host of statisticians backing them up on the production team. Being "high masters" does not make you an expert in anything. Well personally I play BW these days and only played SC2 for a year but when I first was getting into SC five or so years ago I really did like casts. Barely into actually learning how to play the game though, it started becoming abundantly apparent how bullshitted most of the analysis the casters did was and it made the whole process seem extremely ingenious. I won't deny that shout crafting appeals to a larger audience of casuals and I don't think there is anything wrong with that but out of pure respect for the game and the players one should at least know a little about how to actually play it (high masters is an arbitrary level I proposed). I think play by play casting is too often used as a way to shroud ones lack of understanding of the action rather than anything else and an exclusive focus on it prevents a caster from picking up on many of the actually unique aspects of any particular game. This ultimately unfortunately leads to making all games sort of blend together when shoutcasted by someone purely play by play with bullshitted analysis (hype, hype, hype, hype, forcefields, hype). In truth a caster would do so much better if they were to have an analytic basic understanding of the game to work off of. I don't know if this idea is threatening to you because it wasn't your path into casting but there is clearly a demand for it in this particular sport and a short self justifying blurb of what casting should be does not change that fact. | ||
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ETisME
12721 Posts
I liked how destiny would try to understand why a pro does X in this situation. Even when he critize JD plays against Taeja, I do agree with his analysis | ||
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