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Title pretty much says it all. Couldn't think where to put this, so I thought of putting here.
I should really do more blogs, but writing lately has been pretty stale and so are the subjects. I'm thinking of buying a camera for pictures; that would help me want to write and describe the image, but that's for another time
This past weekend, I flip and flopped between games I wanted to play. I wanted to play Civilization V, but didn't want to get into it. I wanted to play Dota 2 and CSGO, but solo-queuing is so harsh (since moving from NA to EU, finding new people to play with is a bit difficult).
So I considered going back to a MMO. I used to play Guild Wars 2 and before that, a shitload of Ragnarok Online (like back in 2004 and shit). I missed the feeling of progression, being a part of a large group of people all striving for common goals.
I like MMOs because you never feel as much pressure to succeed as you do in competitive games like CSGO, Dota 2 or SC2 and yet; I couldn't bring myself to play Guild Wars 2. Even with the new update and despite the fact that there is no arena mode (like wtf?). I just couldn't do it.
I almost installed EVE Online or Archeage just to see if I would feel comfortable and I couldn't. The thing, for me, with MMOs, is that I can't get into it unless I am there at the very beginning. I hate how competitive and frustrated I get with the feeling with being among the best, but it is also a strong motivator for me to keep playing certain games (or in life, in general).
So when it came to installing Guild Wars 2, I justified not playing it with a bunch of excuses: I don't have any friends who play anymore, the game population looks dead or I didn't want to pay 20 freakin' Euros to server transfer (all my characters are on North America).
But the truth of the matter is is that I was gone for a long time and now I feel behind from everyone else.
Ultimately, it leads to the rationale that, if I am so far behind from everyone else, it is pretty futile for me to progress because I assume, stupidly, that everyone is progressing at a similar if not, faster speed that me and thus I will always be outclassed.
So what justifies people to play MMOs? Is it the social experience or the feeling of accomplishment, regardless if compared to others who are farther and thus, potentially, better? Comparison is my biggest weakness and hindrance to enjoying some things.
Subscriptions are in the same vein of obligation or justification. I have never played for a single subscription-based thing: Not Netflix, not World of WarCraft, nada. I only recently started buying things in Free-to-Play games. The way people explain subscriptions to me is that instead of going to the movies or having a beer is that they spend it on this instead.
But I never do any of those things and when I do, I don't feel obligated to further enjoy it throughout the month. 12$ + Popcorn is about the equivalent of a movie for me. For me, paying subscription so I can continue playing a product makes no sense to me. Some people equate it to time enjoyed = value earned, but I feel that's just getting down to the rut of things. If we're using movies/beer as a comparison to justifying paying a subscription, how is playing a variety of other games for equal time enjoyed not better than paying a continuous amount for one game?
Anyways, that's my two reasonings that I want to play a MMO, but just can't get into it. I like how with EVE Online, you can pay for your subscription through Isk, that's really smart and if the game didn't feel so overwhelming or if someone held my hand for 6 months (rofl), I could probably see how that fairs.
Early morning here in Germany, nice weather. Learning how to play Go (Baduk) thanks to some TL members who are really cool.
Thanks
  
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On May 05 2014 16:45 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 16:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
So what justifies people to play MMOs? fun usually
Can you elaborate on the fun part?
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social experience + merchanting. something about selling stuff or buying stuff at low price and selling is fun. With new patch or event or something market could shift drastically. I think for some of the more "competitive" MMOs with like PvP aspects, people usually wanna get that end game stuff and kill each other lol
but #1 is social experience I think. any game is more fun with friends and MMOs (which can be gruesomely boring/grindy) can be pretty fun with some buddies.
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Ah rats! I clicked on this blog hoping to find an answer 
or i guess i was hoping for some trashtalk on MMOs, because I dont think they're fun.. I guess its justified by the fact that people have different taste in games.. I dont like them, never did...
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MMOs probably have the highest variance in demographics: You have some of the most hardcore gamers ever made playing alongside people who would never play another kind of game (other than farmville/candy crush), especially in WoW. The reasons for playing are as diverse as the people. Some people enjoy the non stressful atmosphere of leveling, questing and exploring. Others go straight for PVP or raiding and ignore the rest. I quit WoW several times and my rule was, as soon as I wasn't 100% having fun, I would quit.
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The social experience. Its that simple. Probably no other game type encourages you to get together in groups of people and work together. If you dont find that group of people you enjoy playing with, you probably wont play MMOs for long. I probably wouldnt have at least. But if you do, it can keep you playing forever. I still have my WoW subscription active since forever. The game itself is definitely not the reason I keep logging in from time to time (very little now, more at new patches with new raids etc) but playing something with numerous people you've got to know throughout the years is more than enough reason for me. Paying those 13 euro (or whatever it is, not keeping track anymore lol) each month to keep friendships going seems like a good deal to me.
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I'm with you here Torte.
I want to be there at the start, be one of the highest levels, be in one of the best guilds. Starting late significantly reduces the fun.
Shoutout to Delirium in Hero Online, those were the days 
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Torte, play dota with me. solo q sucks!
On the topic of fun in MMORPGs, I find WoW to be the only MMO besides Aion (for some reason) that can keep my interest. Playing the game for fun is a great experience, especially with friends. I go 3v3 arenas with my 2 RL mates, do LFR , complete achievements, level up new characters, socialize, raid, do old content which I did when it was new, play the auction house etc.
If you wanna play WoW, try joining a guild you like quickly (or the TL guild lol) and have fun.
MMORPGs are what you want them to be. Being in a hardcore guild requires a lot of time, being in a casual one takes one/a few hour(s) a week at best.
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Yup, social experience, if i can't find a good group of people to play an MMO with, i'll get bored, fast. I mean i enjoy playing it, the levelling, progression, raiding, pvp but its just not enough without people to enjoy it with.
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You can't get into competitive games when you feel behind... but you take up 囲碁?
That's an odd choice to make.
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On May 05 2014 16:50 JohnChoi wrote:
social experience + merchanting. something about selling stuff or buying stuff at low price and selling is fun. With new patch or event or something market could shift drastically. I think for some of the more "competitive" MMOs with like PvP aspects, people usually wanna get that end game stuff and kill each other lol
but #1 is social experience I think. any game is more fun with friends and MMOs (which can be gruesomely boring/grindy) can be pretty fun with some buddies.
I like that too! I love playing the economy, but I find it can be either hit or miss. Either you do very well or you completely miss the mark and small gains are not worth the dedication and watch. It also takes a lot of tutelage if you're coming in brand new and the market has long been established. But that's my insecurity speaking.
On May 05 2014 17:24 MagnuMizer wrote:Ah rats! I clicked on this blog hoping to find an answer or i guess i was hoping for some trashtalk on MMOs, because I dont think they're fun.. I guess its justified by the fact that people have different taste in games.. I dont like them, never did...
I used to do MMOs because I had no achievement or goals in life, now it's not true, but once in awhile I get the urge. I think it is also because I don't have a sense of community of friends yet. I tried looking for some recently, but no luck.
On May 05 2014 17:39 Jerubaal wrote:
MMOs probably have the highest variance in demographics: You have some of the most hardcore gamers ever made playing alongside people who would never play another kind of game (other than farmville/candy crush), especially in WoW. The reasons for playing are as diverse as the people. Some people enjoy the non stressful atmosphere of leveling, questing and exploring. Others go straight for PVP or raiding and ignore the rest. I quit WoW several times and my rule was, as soon as I wasn't 100% having fun, I would quit.
Oh for sure, I agree! I like to conisder myself with a lot of effort and determination; average ability to excel or achieve rofl! I love PVP in MMOs, it is the first thing I look for a MMO.
Good rule, I should follow it. My co-workers currently play FF14, but it has a subscription model.
On May 05 2014 17:43 Kreb wrote:
The social experience. Its that simple. Probably no other game type encourages you to get together in groups of people and work together. If you dont find that group of people you enjoy playing with, you probably wont play MMOs for long. I probably wouldnt have at least. But if you do, it can keep you playing forever. I still have my WoW subscription active since forever. The game itself is definitely not the reason I keep logging in from time to time (very little now, more at new patches with new raids etc) but playing something with numerous people you've got to know throughout the years is more than enough reason for me. Paying those 13 euro (or whatever it is, not keeping track anymore lol) each month to keep friendships going seems like a good deal to me.
100% true, you're right. I suppose the answer is really just that simple.
On May 05 2014 18:12 Laurens wrote:I'm with you here Torte. I want to be there at the start, be one of the highest levels, be in one of the best guilds. Starting late significantly reduces the fun. Shoutout to Delirium in Hero Online, those were the days
Yeah, you know what I mean! I hate starting late; because I feel like I can never get past a certain point than others who started at the very beginning, sometimes I'm the same with electronics where I feel I won't be able to fully utilize my money's worth of an object until the next upgrade comes out or something.
On May 05 2014 18:15 Wintex wrote:
Torte, play dota with me. solo q sucks!
On the topic of fun in MMORPGs, I find WoW to be the only MMO besides Aion (for some reason) that can keep my interest. Playing the game for fun is a great experience, especially with friends. I go 3v3 arenas with my 2 RL mates, do LFR , complete achievements, level up new characters, socialize, raid, do old content which I did when it was new, play the auction house etc.
If you wanna play WoW, try joining a guild you like quickly (or the TL guild lol) and have fun.
MMORPGs are what you want them to be. Being in a hardcore guild requires a lot of time, being in a casual one takes one/a few hour(s) a week at best.
How are you at Dota 2? :D I don't play ranked, but I play a lot of unranked. I haven't in awhile though given I always solo-q. I don't mind playing alone, I just like communicating and playing with friends too though.
I did a lot of PVP awhile back for a bunch of games and it really is the most enjoyable. I don't find PVE that appealing unless the people I am playing with hilarious and fun. I take it serious, but sometimes it feels like an endless grind.
Nah. I definitely won't be playing WoW ): But thanks for the invite!
On May 05 2014 18:38 Dagobert wrote:
You can't get into competitive games when you feel behind... but you take up 囲碁?
That's an odd choice to make.
I don't take the same approach with board games. It really relaxes me and this is going to sound both ironic and contradictory, but being at the very bottom of something, where everything is new and I can be naive and innocence is a comforting feeling.
A lot of helpful people want to review and play teaching games with me too, so that's really endearing and makes me happy.
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I think it is also varies to some extent on the MMORPG. EVE players tend to be a different demographic and have different motivations from WoW or (sigh) Runescape players. Heck, even maplestory. It's interesting to see the various subsets of users on TL who partake in each of these games.
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i have no experience with subcription MMOs but ive played a lot of F2P MMORPGs and I can tell you most of them have streamlined their game into making it super beginner friendly and as easy as possible for you to get into it. Just get a couple of friends to play with you and jump into one if you wanna burn some time
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I started playing Planet Side 2 less than a week ago, and I absolutely love the game even though I'm constantly dying. It's one of the few games where I've actually had fun while still getting owned.
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Can't ever get into mmorpg no matter how good they are supposed to be.
Takes way too long to walk to places, huge grinding and just very time consuming to do frustrating yet necessary quest.
I don't mind grinding games, I play disagea, monster hunter etc just for the grinding.
But mmo has a different definition of grind
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
i always just feel guilty
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Just addressing some of your concerns regarding Guild Wars 2 and EVE:
Guild Wars 2 is probably one of the least 'oh I started late, I'm behind everyone now' games. There is definitely more of a gear grind in GW2 than there was in GW1, but the different is small, relatively insignificant, and people aren't going to scream at you about catching up. You still do the exact same content as everyone else. You might be out of the loop with some of the living story (since it updates every couple weeks, and 'old' living story content is removed), but that's simply lore related stuff, and doesn't actually impact how you play the game.
EVE: yes, in many ways you start 'behind' everyone else in EVE because of the time-based skill system. However you can easily leapfrog it all by purchasing characters on the official character bazaar. What that means is that your limitations in EVE are how to make isk, and your knowledge of how the game works. The TL community in EVE is still somewhat active (albeit nowhere near as much as it used to be) and hanging around with them for a month or two will make you already better than 90% of the EVE population out there.
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You start about 3000 years behind in Go though, its a pretty long grind to catch up
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I don't touch MMOs anymore. Used to play WoW, Runescape, and MapleStory as a kid. After the initial excitement, most of the players don't really enjoy playing, its just a time-sucking addiction and endless grind for online status. If I were to grind like that, I'd rather do it in the real world where at least I can get some real cash out of it.
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I played WoW cause I had friends on it, liked the game, and played pretty competitively (PvE DPS/guild rankings and a bit of decent PvP) which was fun and involved quite a lot of research/theorycrafting. I liked being able to spend time on the game doing relaxing stuff, and also having a competitive side to it and special rewards for it. I never liked farming or achievements hunting though, but the cool thing with MMOs (at least good ones) is that you can play the game a lot of different ways.
It's kind of subjective anyway, you can play for a lot of different reasons and like some things and hate others. I really liked playing in a guild with friends and still being able to get good rankings and stuff though. It still felt really good to be the 2nd world's best warrior on a boss, or be the 4th guild to kill another in your country. The fun I got from the game plus the people I got to know thanks to it were way worth the subscription
Also, the game is an interesting sample of humanity. I'll never forget some of the people I've talked with..
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On May 05 2014 16:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Ultimately, it leads to the rationale that, if I am so far behind from everyone else, it is pretty futile for me to progress because I assume, stupidly, that everyone is progressing at a similar if not, faster speed that me and thus I will always be outclassed.
This is your problem.
Why bother doing anything if you don't believe you can catch up to anyone and that's all you care about?
If anything mmo gear is way easier to catch up to than skill.
MMOs are like any other game, if you find them fun play it, if you don't, don't play it. MMOs might be addicting or whatever but its mostly because theres always people to talk to.
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On May 05 2014 22:30 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 16:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Ultimately, it leads to the rationale that, if I am so far behind from everyone else, it is pretty futile for me to progress because I assume, stupidly, that everyone is progressing at a similar if not, faster speed that me and thus I will always be outclassed.
This is your problem. Why bother doing anything if you don't believe you can catch up to anyone and that's all you care about? If anything mmo gear is way easier to catch up to than skill. MMOs are like any other game, if you find them fun play it, if you don't, don't play it. MMOs might be addicting or whatever but its mostly because theres always people to talk to.
I think it's the stupid view that I am giving up before even trying, but with a game that demands a lot of commitment (if I want to catch up); it sounds a bit sane.
I'm not fearful of addiction; I just want to feel like I'm dog-paddling in a deep sea of a game.
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It sounds like you're doing one of those destination before journey things. There's no point playing just to reach the very endgame, if the climb there isnt fun you probably wasted most of your time.
Especially for something like EVE you have to be happy playing your own smaller role because that really is a game where if you want to catch up you have to put in tonnes of time. That game is definitely an exceptional case though.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
On May 05 2014 22:49 Slayer91 wrote:
Especially for something like EVE you have to be happy playing your own smaller role because that really is a game where if you want to catch up you have to put in tonnes of time. That game is definitely an exceptional case though.
Partially disagree. If you want to become some bigshot alliance leader who plays a large role in the metagame, sure that will take quite a lot of time. But if you simply want to learn how to play the game, it doesn't really take 'tonnes of time'.
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thats whyI said "smaller role" and not "learn how to play the game"
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On May 05 2014 22:49 Slayer91 wrote:
It sounds like you're doing one of those destination before journey things. There's no point playing just to reach the very endgame, if the climb there isnt fun you probably wasted most of your time.
Especially for something like EVE you have to be happy playing your own smaller role because that really is a game where if you want to catch up you have to put in tonnes of time. That game is definitely an exceptional case though.
100000000000% this. Yeah, I am. For me, I want to know how far I can get before I dive in because otherwise I can just devote my time elsewhere. It is 100% a question of time-rationale, which I think is fair, but then I lose the point of playing games.
I'm fine with smaller roles, being at the bottom. Especially with EVE where there are literal kingpins and shit and a hierarchy that is actually used and valued (unlike some MMOs where its just a social effect).
But when I tried EVE, I always ask: what can I do for the corporation I'm in and it's always; do whatever you like. Well, I want to do things that help people and be a part of the main group; even if I'm just a fly on the wall.
I play for the interaction and be with people, something I'll need to build no matter what I do.
On May 05 2014 22:53 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 22:49 Slayer91 wrote:
Especially for something like EVE you have to be happy playing your own smaller role because that really is a game where if you want to catch up you have to put in tonnes of time. That game is definitely an exceptional case though. Partially disagree. If you want to become some bigshot alliance leader who plays a large role in the metagame, sure that will take quite a lot of time. But if you simply want to learn how to play the game, it doesn't really take 'tonnes of time'.
I want to learn, but I want the feeling that I am going somewhere at least.
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For me, MMO's fit into my personality type. I'm an optimizer by nature. I take great pleasure in figuring out faster and more efficient ways to do things. That's essentially what an MMO is: repetitive tasks that you are rewarded for optimizing by getting more rewards in less time than other people.
Interesting, as I wrote that out I just realized that I should be more involved in the Speed Running community. WTF. That stuff should be right up my alley, but for some reason I haven't gotten into it other than to watch streams.
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On May 06 2014 00:20 Takkara wrote:
For me, MMO's fit into my personality type. I'm an optimizer by nature. I take great pleasure in figuring out faster and more efficient ways to do things. That's essentially what an MMO is: repetitive tasks that you are rewarded for optimizing by getting more rewards in less time than other people.
Interesting, as I wrote that out I just realized that I should be more involved in the Speed Running community. WTF. That stuff should be right up my alley, but for some reason I haven't gotten into it other than to watch streams.
that definitely sounds like speedrunning! Do Kirby All-Stars :D
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I use to play a lot of subscription mmos back in the day with wow being the longest i ever subbed to something(like 6 years with only missing a few months). Now i cant stand the thing if its not some hybrid freemium game. I understand the sub goes towards new content and server maintence but anymore i hate not being able to play the content ive already purchased just because i didnt give them 15$ this month. Thats why i like swtor currently. If you dont pay you can still play albeit with some restrictions. But even then you can purchase unlocks that make it less "painful" using ingame money or real life money.
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On May 06 2014 00:32 FromShouri wrote:
I use to play a lot of subscription mmos back in the day with wow being the longest i ever subbed to something(like 6 years with only missing a few months). Now i cant stand the thing if its not some hybrid freemium game. I understand the sub goes towards new content and server maintence but anymore i hate not being able to play the content ive already purchased just because i didnt give them 15$ this month. Thats why i like swtor currently. If you dont pay you can still play albeit with some restrictions. But even then you can purchase unlocks that make it less "painful" using ingame money or real life money.
That's why I like GW2, but to be honest; no PVP arena like in GW1 and how the end-game was just sorta cosmetics made the game kinda bland for me. But then again, I like the idea that I don't have to grind for better equipment.
I keep debating if I want to go back or not; 20 euros to server transfer. WvW sucked hard though.
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I've learned a nice word describing the experience when I used to play ACE Online: soothing (thanks Vilatan!).
Personally I hate MMOs since they are a huge time sink without a proper end goal. Considering I'm terrible at coming up with interesting challenges, I only pick up games that have strictly defined terms of victory. That being said, I know a lot of people just enjoy their time doing stuff for vague goals in them, even if it's repetitive.
On May 05 2014 16:46 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 16:45 Onekobold wrote:On May 05 2014 16:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
So what justifies people to play MMOs? fun usually Can you elaborate on the fun part?
I've seen this question many times before, usually in the form of "How is this fun?", and assuming you are looking for an actual answer to that question, I can only tell you this: if somebody else has to explain to you why something is fun, it probably isn't to you. On the other hand, asking "What is fun about it" will lead you to certain aspects of games that you might want to explore.
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The real cost of MMOs is not the money, it's the huge time investment to grind and keep up with everyone else. It's hard to have a satisfying experience if you just play a little here and there.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51452 Posts
I played WoW since 2005, always find myself going back to it. I guess the fun you can have with hours at a time doing PvE raids is second to none. I have made some of my best friends from WoW many of whom are not the average WoW player stereotypes. I like WoW for the team aspect and just trolling the fuck out of eachother on voice comms whilst progressing 2-3 hours in an evening. Or farming till 4am on weekends of silly things just because you can. Nothing has beaten them for me and only MMOs seem to bring that out.
I have played pretty much every MMO and i always go back to WoW. The big killer was supposed to be GW2 but i didn't even get to max level on that "/
How do you justify playing an MMO? If it entertains you for the value you think it is worth. Hell i go to the cinema when i can as i love watching stuff on the big screen, but the value in the Cinema is shocking, costs me £30 when me and someone go whether it be my dad or a friend due to the price of tickets and popcorn alone. Then i always need a piss halfway through and want to pause like i would on netflix or a DVD xD...anyway back the point. Things aren't justified in value outside of MMOs so i don't think you should try and justify an MMO subscription. If you play it 10+ hours a week and enjoy it then its justified. If you can AFFORD to do that it is also justified.
Thats the best way i can word why i do it.
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I feel bad for everyone who cannot enjoy a game unless they're "keeping up" with everyone else.
It's fun to play and progress at your own pace with a group of friends or a whole guild of your own. Even if you're not the premier raid guild on the server, you can still have all the same fun of progressing with your friends.
To a certain extent, I understand the desire to surpass others. However, in MMOs, it's really a factor of time. So do you really care to brag "I spent more time playing this game than you." It doesn't even have any connotation of "I am better than you." Just that you've been grinding longer and harder.
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An RPG-game is about playing a role (pretty obvious). In single player games you almost always play the hero part. But if you think about it, the strength of MMORPG is that you can be any part, even a not so significant one. The world goes on with or without you. So focus on your experience and don't compare yourself or strive to be the best.
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I am at a similar problem as you.
Especially since I have settled down a lot more with full time job+fiance.
Here's my beef with MMO's, they have basically become way to casual. MMO's are about a "everybody wins if they put time in!"
What MMOs are missing now a days(minus eve) is that the best story/drama you can create in a video game is that which is created by the players themselves not the game designers.
Wonder what I am talking about? read this about EVE http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/88121-metagaming-in-eve
When I first read that my jaw dropped, the people that have played that game since it came out, are basically creating their own star wars. The politics, deceit, and greed in that game are so real its mind blowing. That's the kind of experience MMO's need to deliver. Something real, not some bullshit story line as I progress through my safe leveling zones killing stupid fuckin ai. If I wanted a good story I would read a book.
Think about a game like SWTOR. I lasted 1 month in that game, because it was the exact same garbage that has been coming out year after year. Now think about what SWTOR could of been had they adapted a style more like EVE. Imagine being a real bounty hunter capturing peoples characters from a guild and holding them ransom? Imagine actually controlling a planet with your guild and having to defend it.
This is the shit MMO needs, not a care bear shiny item game you got for killing AI bosses. People will say that it wont work because the design will frustrate people. "if my character gets captured I cant play him for a couple of days!" Well fuckin deal with it. Some guy a few months ago lost $200,000 of in game items in EVE, this kind of player interaction is exactly what MMO's need to become.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Technically speaking it was just one guy that lost $200,000 of stuff in EVE; it was a lot of guys who collectively lost that amount. Still absurd, but not quite as much as the way you put it.
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I have no problems paying a monthly subscription for a game that is maintained, updated and kept cheat/bug free with reasonable latency. I have been playing WoW since launch, with a couple of months taken off for breaks/staleness. As the game has been around for 10 years, it's really easy to find things to do, especially along the way to max level. Socially, I enjoy the fact that I can log on and play with RL friends and family, or longtime internet friends who still play.
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On May 06 2014 02:59 Firebolt145 wrote:Technically speaking it was just one guy that lost $200,000 of stuff in EVE; it was a lot of guys who collectively lost that amount. Still absurd, but not quite as much as the way you put it.
Yes,
But
Think about how different that is than your typical MMO, the consequences are about 000000000000000000000.11 % as bad as EVE, in fact I cant think of really any consequences. In games like SWTOR or GW2 when I played them.
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As far as mmo goes I only really have played maplestory casualy (back in the good old days <3) and nostale which was pretty cool. but after playing to learn the game for so long I kinda forgot that real casual playing for fun thing
anyway if you need somebody to play cs:go with you can always hit me up
steam: sabastiaan
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Wow, that EVE thread, what a read. I can see how other MMORPGs just aren't as good after playing that.
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On May 05 2014 20:09 ninazerg wrote:
I started playing Planet Side 2 less than a week ago, and I absolutely love the game even though I'm constantly dying. It's one of the few games where I've actually had fun while still getting owned.
I tried that game, was definitely not for me. I joined The Enclave after thinking I could be part of a community; such toxic people, terrible racists.
On May 05 2014 20:33 ETisME wrote:
Can't ever get into mmorpg no matter how good they are supposed to be.
Takes way too long to walk to places, huge grinding and just very time consuming to do frustrating yet necessary quest.
I don't mind grinding games, I play disagea, monster hunter etc just for the grinding.
But mmo has a different definition of grind
It depends for me. Sometimes the landscape and world is mesmerizing enough to make the whole thing a stroll :D
On May 05 2014 21:33 Firebolt145 wrote:
Just addressing some of your concerns regarding Guild Wars 2 and EVE:
Guild Wars 2 is probably one of the least 'oh I started late, I'm behind everyone now' games. There is definitely more of a gear grind in GW2 than there was in GW1, but the different is small, relatively insignificant, and people aren't going to scream at you about catching up. You still do the exact same content as everyone else. You might be out of the loop with some of the living story (since it updates every couple weeks, and 'old' living story content is removed), but that's simply lore related stuff, and doesn't actually impact how you play the game.
EVE: yes, in many ways you start 'behind' everyone else in EVE because of the time-based skill system. However you can easily leapfrog it all by purchasing characters on the official character bazaar. What that means is that your limitations in EVE are how to make isk, and your knowledge of how the game works. The TL community in EVE is still somewhat active (albeit nowhere near as much as it used to be) and hanging around with them for a month or two will make you already better than 90% of the EVE population out there.
I tried to hang out with TL EVE and I think Tofucake was really accomodating, but overall; everyone was too spread out and doing what they want to do to feel like I was part of a crew rather than tagging along.
they did answer all my dumb questions though; so that's comforting.
On May 05 2014 22:01 Kupon3ss wrote:
You start about 3000 years behind in Go though, its a pretty long grind to catch up
ha yes, but the mindset for board games and the small community who help me learn is really comforting and warming <3
On May 06 2014 01:54 Therapist. wrote:
I feel bad for everyone who cannot enjoy a game unless they're "keeping up" with everyone else.
It's fun to play and progress at your own pace with a group of friends or a whole guild of your own. Even if you're not the premier raid guild on the server, you can still have all the same fun of progressing with your friends.
To a certain extent, I understand the desire to surpass others. However, in MMOs, it's really a factor of time. So do you really care to brag "I spent more time playing this game than you." It doesn't even have any connotation of "I am better than you." Just that you've been grinding longer and harder.
The basis of it all is true, in the end; "I spent more time than you" makes this all so more irrelevant. But I guess I take pride in these sorts of things. It was really cool in Ragnarok Online when War of Emperium was on and you could take so many castles and people would know you were part of a force to be reckon'd with.
That sort of thing is really cool. To stand out among a mass of other dedicated people. Poor mindset, but it is exhilarating as well.
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Bisutopia19193 Posts
I can't get into MMOs anymore because I don't have the friends to get into it again. It was hugely a social thing 6 years ago. Now I can't justify the time. Once you hit late 20s, relationships + work make it difficult to invest in an MMO when I spend all my free time catching up on SC. And I refuse to quit on SC after this many years.
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For me, I like to think that the time I put into a game of a certain genre is rewarded by the fact that I build up a skillset to suit that genre. IE: in StarCraft, I build up a skillset suited to master any other RTS game I play (given the same fundamentals). In CS:GO, I build up a skillset suited to master any other FPS game I play.
But in MMOs...I mean I'm sure the same paradigm is there but I just don't see it. I can switch from StarCraft to Age of Mythology or Age of Kings (or some other old RTS game) and annihilate people, it's unbelievable that all the skills can carry over like they do - but they do!
That is what is by far the most rewarding to me - that I gain a skillset which can be applied to any game of the same genre that I play. That I'm mastering a transcendental aspect of the genre, and that the components of this mastery are "interesting" to me.
See, in CS:GO - or other shooter games - incredible accuracy, situational awareness, twitch control...In SC? Well, I'm sure anyone on TL can rattle off a long list of RTS game skills which mastering SC will give you.
I mean, there HAS to be some skills which carry over in-between MMO games (I am incredibly ignorant of this) but it seems to me that the vast majority of knowledge is going to be game-specific and that the fundamentals themselves are of little interest to me.
I tried playing the free demo of WoW, ended up putting around 5 hours into it. Couldn't get past the grinding! I was looking for some skill based element, but either I couldn't see it or skill-based elements in MMO games don't reveal themselves until you've sunk a lot of time into them.
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I've played a LOT of Guild Wars PvP (inb4 "not really a mmo") when the game was still alive and a lot of the skills translated over to moba games. Not to or from either starcraft though.
Specifically team-fight positioning, kiting, map awareness, and generally how to play with or against other people (I mean reading their intention off their map movement etc, but obviously this also includes the generic "communication")
The rest (micro mechanics, team/build strategy) is probably game-specific, although I have no real PvP experience in other mmos.
It just has little overlap with the skillset from/needed for RTS's, because they don't really have a team aspect, positioning, while the same basic concept, is done completely differently so that doesn't help for shit.
The only thing that really transitioned over for me personally between rts's and gw was being aware of my minimap. Which, while important, is more of a minor habit.
That's only the PvP though, the only skill you could MAYBE learn from PvE is communicating with teammates. Maybe. Generally PvE is so easy that that's not even necessary so dunno.
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On May 06 2014 05:20 BisuDagger wrote:
I can't get into MMOs anymore because I don't have the friends to get into it again. It was hugely a social thing 6 years ago. Now I can't justify the time. Once you hit late 20s, relationships + work make it difficult to invest in an MMO when I spend all my free time catching up on SC. And I refuse to quit on SC after this many years.
This is really the killer for me. I've recently picked up BW again but that's literally the only game I play these days. I have some steam games but I might load up one of those once a month or so.
For some games, like Skyrim or Dark Souls, I justify playing them by telling myself I'm also creating memory palaces with them. Then later on when I have a bunch of stuff to memorize so I can learn it all faster, I can use the places in the game to place mnemonics.
I played FFXI with friends in high school, but I couldn't afford the subscription after a few months. I've also played 4-5 free MMOs, but those tend to get infested with hackers after the first 5-6 months so there's really no justification for me to enjoy them. I did enjoy "being on top," especially following the top 20 or so players for a while as we all started the game at the same time, we all reached the higher level areas first, etc, but without real life friends there with me it got really boring really fast.
Nowadays I'm more interested in real life progress. Learning a language, reading a bunch of books on a particular subject, etc. This type of stuff makes me happier now, where I feel like I am a more interesting person because of "the grind" and the time I put into becoming a better person.
Cheers.
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MMO's as a genre is relatively more relaxed, fun and i'd argue a little more involved in terms of the social aspect side of things. It's easier to make friends within the community given the nature of MMO's in general and if you're into a specific MMO, they can be a really good time sink.
I'm not playing any MMO's at the moment but when I did, my justification outside of fun is that I just like to swap around games in general. Dota and Starcraft are games where I really get burnt out playing marathon sessions of them, to the point where I'm just not even having fun playing either of them. So what I would do is just maybe play some free to play or renew my subscription of WoW for about a month, get into it until I get burnt out and go back to DotA or Starcraft becomes fun for me again.
It's harmless to try out new games in general and when you get bored of one game in particular chances are you'll have developed renewed appetite for a game you left behind. That's how I look at things at least.
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just play guildwars1, the best computer game to have ever existed
even ragnarok comes behind it 
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If you want to take another crack at eve, kwark is creating content and inviting all tl people out there. There are also clumps of us in a few different places. And I justify playing a mmo by deciding if I have the time and if I will enjoy it. And in eve you can make yourself relevant with out becoming a huge alliance leader. In most alliances the cream will rise to the top given time.
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On May 05 2014 16:50 JohnChoi wrote:
social experience + merchanting. something about selling stuff or buying stuff at low price and selling is fun. With new patch or event or something market could shift drastically. I think for some of the more "competitive" MMOs with like PvP aspects, people usually wanna get that end game stuff and kill each other lol
but #1 is social experience I think. any game is more fun with friends and MMOs (which can be gruesomely boring/grindy) can be pretty fun with some buddies.
According to my experience gw2 doesnt value social experience. The game is so easy/boring it's almost unplayable in a party below 80. I had to tell a friend of mine who really wanted to play in a party to get out of my party to enjoy it, which is the most unsocial thing i can imagine. You literally cant die in the game unless you do something totally foolish like pulling 3+ groups at the same time or fight ranged (melee arent a problem) champions solo. Having a second player with you takes away even that danger.
I treat mmos as some kind of rpg-replacement because the rpg-market is mostly dead. So if i dont feel competitive or have lost 3 games in a row in dota i sometimes pick up gw2 atm. That being said the games arent good rpg-replacements, cause either I pay 12 € a month for a game i find mediocre or get advertisements all the time telling me that what i do is inefficient and all i need to do to be efficient is pay money.
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On May 06 2014 05:20 BisuDagger wrote:
I can't get into MMOs anymore because I don't have the friends to get into it again. It was hugely a social thing 6 years ago. Now I can't justify the time. Once you hit late 20s, relationships + work make it difficult to invest in an MMO when I spend all my free time catching up on SC. And I refuse to quit on SC after this many years.
This was sort of how it is now. Before eSports; I did MMOs and a bunch of competitive games and didn't know about eSports; then I made the switch and now I have a job with sometimes difficult hours, relationships, etc. So while I do want to dedicate time to a MMO; I can't compete with people who have free weekends (school or a 9-5 job) and can't balance the two fairly ):
Just yesterday, I played maybe 3 hours and had to cut off all my social ties I had usually (was worth it, but wow; didn't know I had to sacrifice a lot just to play)
On May 06 2014 05:39 Qwyn wrote:
For me, I like to think that the time I put into a game of a certain genre is rewarded by the fact that I build up a skillset to suit that genre. IE: in StarCraft, I build up a skillset suited to master any other RTS game I play (given the same fundamentals). In CS:GO, I build up a skillset suited to master any other FPS game I play.
But in MMOs...I mean I'm sure the same paradigm is there but I just don't see it. I can switch from StarCraft to Age of Mythology or Age of Kings (or some other old RTS game) and annihilate people, it's unbelievable that all the skills can carry over like they do - but they do!
That is what is by far the most rewarding to me - that I gain a skillset which can be applied to any game of the same genre that I play. That I'm mastering a transcendental aspect of the genre, and that the components of this mastery are "interesting" to me.
See, in CS:GO - or other shooter games - incredible accuracy, situational awareness, twitch control...In SC? Well, I'm sure anyone on TL can rattle off a long list of RTS game skills which mastering SC will give you.
I mean, there HAS to be some skills which carry over in-between MMO games (I am incredibly ignorant of this) but it seems to me that the vast majority of knowledge is going to be game-specific and that the fundamentals themselves are of little interest to me.
I tried playing the free demo of WoW, ended up putting around 5 hours into it. Couldn't get past the grinding! I was looking for some skill based element, but either I couldn't see it or skill-based elements in MMO games don't reveal themselves until you've sunk a lot of time into them.
For me, for MMOs, is like a Poker game with friends. I suck at Poker and will just lose my money; so but it is the the talks and enjoyment of being around others that will reel me back into continuing to play. That's sort of how I equate MMOs. If I were to play Poker alone, I'd quit immediately, but with friends; talking while clicking away on some enemies, well-worth my time.
On May 06 2014 08:02 Dandel Ion wrote:
I've played a LOT of Guild Wars PvP (inb4 "not really a mmo") when the game was still alive and a lot of the skills translated over to moba games. Not to or from either starcraft though.
Specifically team-fight positioning, kiting, map awareness, and generally how to play with or against other people (I mean reading their intention off their map movement etc, but obviously this also includes the generic "communication")
The rest (micro mechanics, team/build strategy) is probably game-specific, although I have no real PvP experience in other mmos.
It just has little overlap with the skillset from/needed for RTS's, because they don't really have a team aspect, positioning, while the same basic concept, is done completely differently so that doesn't help for shit.
The only thing that really transitioned over for me personally between rts's and gw was being aware of my minimap. Which, while important, is more of a minor habit.
That's only the PvP though, the only skill you could MAYBE learn from PvE is communicating with teammates. Maybe. Generally PvE is so easy that that's not even necessary so dunno.
YEAH! PVP GUILD WARS! That shit was intense and awesome! I sucked, but man it was worth it!
I dislike PVE because I don't feel I stand out among people; I am just a person with the available skillset to provide consistent damage; I could be replaced. You can say that anywhere, but with PVP and small teams; you' become a lot more essential as a being so to speak.
A bit why I hate WvW in GW2. Mindless masses of people rushing from base to base.
On May 06 2014 09:42 teddyoojo wrote:just play guildwars1, the best computer game to have ever existed even ragnarok comes behind it
dangerous words!
On May 06 2014 09:43 Jaaaaasper wrote:
If you want to take another crack at eve, kwark is creating content and inviting all tl people out there. There are also clumps of us in a few different places. And I justify playing a mmo by deciding if I have the time and if I will enjoy it. And in eve you can make yourself relevant with out becoming a huge alliance leader. In most alliances the cream will rise to the top given time.
Yeah I saw what KwarK was doing. But I really need to be a part of a group, Corporation. Even then, since I am so undecided, it's a risk for anyone to help me.
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Can sympathise. There are very few MMOs that have gripped me and I've tried a LOT. I keep meaning to play GW2 again though.
When it comes down to it though the only MMO I've played for any length of time is one that involved no skill system, no levels, nothing that is "traditional MMO" in any way. It had a handful of hard coded player run factions with rank systems which the upper ranks had full control overand a skill-based Third Person/First Person shooter combat system and the entire game was based on its RP, social interactions and politics in this dystopian future. It was all about the social experience and the stories that came out of it, a true role playing game.
Unfortunately they're currently in the process of trying to turn it into something its not; ripping out the guts of the lore and setting in the process, as well as adding arbitrary limits via a skillbook system a la EVE. Its a massive shame what they're doing to it. But I've been playing it on and off for eight years and the only reason I'm still there is because of the players and the setting.
I don't think traditional MMOs suit me, frankly. I'll just stick to playing DOTA2 for the most part.
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Pretty sure you just have to go into hatchery pub channel and ask for a kwark alt so you can get a invite. Also everyone is kwark until proven otherwise
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Awesome, Torte, so it seems like the whole "comparison" issue you have doesn't exactly equate to skill or competitive play, which is pretty darn good because the latter is a really tough nut to crack. In my case, the resistance to playing an MMO is similiar to "comparing" with others, but is different because I struggle blindly to latch onto some sort of skill element ^^.
I mean, who doesn't like playing with friends! That's a whole different kind of story. Hope you can find a good game (everyone's saying EVE...hehe) and dig in! I wouldn't really bother comparing your gear and shit with others since, as you said with the poker analogy, as long as you've got the bros, the good times will roll.
The reason I brought up the whole skill element is because I had sort of the same problem when I delved into MMOs (I also play a shit ton of Diablo)...ultimately if the only cost for this gear is time then it's sort of meaningless, whereas, if I search for some sort of skill element then I can master it and apply it to any game in the genre that I play. A lasting value, if you will.
Hope you find a good game to dig into and have a blast!
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If you follow your own guidelines to a T Torte you will have no social life. It's fun from time to time, but if the aim is to always be one of the best then I'd say you're playing those type of MMOS for the wrong reasons. I wouldn't worry what other people are doing but focus on yourself and layout realistic goals. You have a job and other things to attend to now. Set realistic goals and life including the games we play will be more rewarding.
On May 06 2014 09:12 Kuroeeah wrote:
MMO's as a genre is relatively more relaxed, fun and i'd argue a little more involved in terms of the social aspect side of things. It's easier to make friends within the community given the nature of MMO's in general and if you're into a specific MMO, they can be a really good time sink.
I'm not playing any MMO's at the moment but when I did, my justification outside of fun is that I just like to swap around games in general. Dota and Starcraft are games where I really get burnt out playing marathon sessions of them, to the point where I'm just not even having fun playing either of them. So what I would do is just maybe play some free to play or renew my subscription of WoW for about a month, get into it until I get burnt out and go back to DotA or Starcraft becomes fun for me again.
It's harmless to try out new games in general and when you get bored of one game in particular chances are you'll have developed renewed appetite for a game you left behind. That's how I look at things at least.
I'd say there are quite a few intense guys who are always trying to prove themselves in game because that's what their whole world revolves around. A lot of nutcases and weirdos who are full of shit.
As for the guy above, there are actually quite a few MMOs out there that rely more on skill than gear solely nowadays which is a nice change.
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Was going to say freedom, but that's not always the case. Maybe exploration. The scale and variety of environments in some MMO's are terrific.
In the long run, I think being part of a 'that' guild or group of friends (share further interests, look forward to continuing conversations, people actually stick around).
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On May 07 2014 14:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Check out Star Citizen.
It's not released, why bother?
On May 07 2014 14:47 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Pretty sure you just have to go into hatchery pub channel and ask for a kwark alt so you can get a invite. Also everyone is kwark until proven otherwise
I could, but I'm more looking for an instructional hand than a pick-me up
On May 08 2014 09:05 StarStruck wrote:If you follow your own guidelines to a T Torte you will have no social life. It's fun from time to time, but if the aim is to always be one of the best then I'd say you're playing those type of MMOS for the wrong reasons. I wouldn't worry what other people are doing but focus on yourself and layout realistic goals. You have a job and other things to attend to now. Set realistic goals and life including the games we play will be more rewarding. Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 09:12 Kuroeeah wrote:
MMO's as a genre is relatively more relaxed, fun and i'd argue a little more involved in terms of the social aspect side of things. It's easier to make friends within the community given the nature of MMO's in general and if you're into a specific MMO, they can be a really good time sink.
I'm not playing any MMO's at the moment but when I did, my justification outside of fun is that I just like to swap around games in general. Dota and Starcraft are games where I really get burnt out playing marathon sessions of them, to the point where I'm just not even having fun playing either of them. So what I would do is just maybe play some free to play or renew my subscription of WoW for about a month, get into it until I get burnt out and go back to DotA or Starcraft becomes fun for me again.
It's harmless to try out new games in general and when you get bored of one game in particular chances are you'll have developed renewed appetite for a game you left behind. That's how I look at things at least. I'd say there are quite a few intense guys who are always trying to prove themselves in game because that's what their whole world revolves around. A lot of nutcases and weirdos who are full of shit. As for the guy above, there are actually quite a few MMOs out there that rely more on skill than gear solely nowadays which is a nice change.
Yeah, I don't think MMOs fit my regiment or perception of games. It's so strange though, for GTA; I don't even play the story, I just fucking drive around and I have like 200 hours of time spent in that game.
Which MMOs rely on skill?
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WoW PvP does require a sense of timing and great teamwork. I remember so many 2v3s after my mate died because of me and my other buddy's intense teamwork. And that, even in MoP which is considered the most CC oriented expansion.
Beating people when you have inferior gear is also 100 % skill. Especially when you run around with gear that's 2 season old or shit.
WoW PvE requires an exceptional amount of prepwork and knowledge, and playing without all the easymode addons can make it quite a fun thing.
Dunno man, you should really check it out when WoD comes out. No game has the same amount of content. Achievements are there to be completed. You'll never be bored in an ok guild.
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EPT
