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On April 17 2014 22:05 Animzor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 21:47 PRJ wrote:
i don't play dota because it's poorly designed
i'm sure the game is a blast once you've spent an enormous amount of time memorizing things and learning the arcane rules, but i get more fun out of games that don't have that ridiculous requirement That's odd. The game is actually fun from the very start and the fact that there are always new things to learn makes it rewarding in a way that most games nowadays do not even come close to. I would say most games are time-wasters, dota on the other hand is something that you'll get more out of the more time you put into it.
if you spent time on other games, you'd realize there's always something to learn in those, too, without all the nonsense that comes with the moba genre. The only real positive point to mobas is that tons of people play them.
as a longtime comp player of fps games, those types of games can get you the same experience as a moba with a fraction of the boring, obnoxious memorization and the rage and people ruining games and excessive time commitments per game.
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Pls no copino pasterino
User was warned for this post
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On April 18 2014 00:44 PRJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 22:05 Animzor wrote:On April 17 2014 21:47 PRJ wrote:
i don't play dota because it's poorly designed
i'm sure the game is a blast once you've spent an enormous amount of time memorizing things and learning the arcane rules, but i get more fun out of games that don't have that ridiculous requirement That's odd. The game is actually fun from the very start and the fact that there are always new things to learn makes it rewarding in a way that most games nowadays do not even come close to. I would say most games are time-wasters, dota on the other hand is something that you'll get more out of the more time you put into it. if you spent time on other games, you'd realize there's always something to learn in those, too, without all the nonsense that comes with the moba genre. The only real positive point to mobas is that tons of people play them. as a longtime comp player of fps games, those types of games can get you the same experience as a moba with a fraction of the boring, obnoxious memorization and the rage and people ruining games and excessive time commitments per game.
To each his own. I'm awful at FPS games, and probably always will be. MOBA's are much less about "memorization" than you seem to think, and much more about building your intuition and reflexes, just like FPS. I'm quite certain I would astound you with just how bad someone can be at FPS if you tried to coach me, and it's not a genre I choose to play, or spectate.
You're not who Pyrion is talking about though. He's talking about people that enjoy DotA from the outside, have maybe tried a few bot games, but won't try ranked/vs humans because it's too intimidating. Everyone is a scrub at one time or another, and if your game is easy enough that you're only a scrub for a week - that takes something out of the enjoyment for some people. If you're game is hard enough that you're still a scrub a month after picking it up, then you might as well try DotA!
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On April 18 2014 00:44 PRJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 22:05 Animzor wrote:On April 17 2014 21:47 PRJ wrote:
i don't play dota because it's poorly designed
i'm sure the game is a blast once you've spent an enormous amount of time memorizing things and learning the arcane rules, but i get more fun out of games that don't have that ridiculous requirement That's odd. The game is actually fun from the very start and the fact that there are always new things to learn makes it rewarding in a way that most games nowadays do not even come close to. I would say most games are time-wasters, dota on the other hand is something that you'll get more out of the more time you put into it. if you spent time on other games, you'd realize there's always something to learn in those, too, without all the nonsense that comes with the moba genre. The only real positive point to mobas is that tons of people play them. as a longtime comp player of fps games, those types of games can get you the same experience as a moba with a fraction of the boring, obnoxious memorization and the rage and people ruining games and excessive time commitments per game.
I find I enjoy DotA and its various clones more than I do FPS games. You are right in that FPS games requires you to learn new things to improve. Take CS:GO, the positioning can always improve, reading of opponent can always improve, aim can always improve. Same is true for most FPS and DotA clone games. You can move between different games in the genre and transfer a lot of the same skill set.
Then you get into the nitty gritty details and both rewards that. In CS:GO you might for example remember that aiming at a specific pixel makes a nade land in just that spot or that using the AK and hitting the left arm gives this damage score, with and without armour. These things wary game to game and is what makes one FPS different from another. Other examples include, specific weapon spreads, turn rates, chosen latency, travel time and movement speed by bunny hopping.
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On April 18 2014 00:44 PRJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 22:05 Animzor wrote:On April 17 2014 21:47 PRJ wrote:
i don't play dota because it's poorly designed
i'm sure the game is a blast once you've spent an enormous amount of time memorizing things and learning the arcane rules, but i get more fun out of games that don't have that ridiculous requirement That's odd. The game is actually fun from the very start and the fact that there are always new things to learn makes it rewarding in a way that most games nowadays do not even come close to. I would say most games are time-wasters, dota on the other hand is something that you'll get more out of the more time you put into it. if you spent time on other games, you'd realize there's always something to learn in those, too, without all the nonsense that comes with the moba genre. The only real positive point to mobas is that tons of people play them. as a longtime comp player of fps games, those types of games can get you the same experience as a moba with a fraction of the boring, obnoxious memorization and the rage and people ruining games and excessive time commitments per game.
Why do you even bother posting in a thread about DotA if you clearly hate the genre, rofl. How ridiculous.
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On April 18 2014 01:26 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 00:44 PRJ wrote:On April 17 2014 22:05 Animzor wrote:On April 17 2014 21:47 PRJ wrote:
i don't play dota because it's poorly designed
i'm sure the game is a blast once you've spent an enormous amount of time memorizing things and learning the arcane rules, but i get more fun out of games that don't have that ridiculous requirement That's odd. The game is actually fun from the very start and the fact that there are always new things to learn makes it rewarding in a way that most games nowadays do not even come close to. I would say most games are time-wasters, dota on the other hand is something that you'll get more out of the more time you put into it. if you spent time on other games, you'd realize there's always something to learn in those, too, without all the nonsense that comes with the moba genre. The only real positive point to mobas is that tons of people play them. as a longtime comp player of fps games, those types of games can get you the same experience as a moba with a fraction of the boring, obnoxious memorization and the rage and people ruining games and excessive time commitments per game. I find I enjoy DotA and its various clones more than I do FPS games. You are right in that FPS games requires you to learn new things to improve. Take CS:GO, the positioning can always improve, reading of opponent can always improve, aim can always improve. Same is true for most FPS and DotA clone games. You can move between different games in the genre and transfer a lot of the same skill set. Then you get into the nitty gritty details and both rewards that. In CS:GO you might for example remember that aiming at a specific pixel makes a nade land in just that spot or that using the AK and hitting the left arm gives this damage score, with and without armour. These things wary game to game and is what makes one FPS different from another. Other examples include, specific weapon spreads, turn rates, chosen latency, travel time and movement speed by bunny hopping.
It's funny to watch new players playing competitive games in CSGO because it makes no sense to experienced player for people, even not coordinated, could play like it. Then we remember that we started off like that - largely clueless, with no game sense whatsoever, no idea where to look or how to deal with dead angles and stuff... There's a surprising amount of stuff to know to play CSGO well.
And pro games definitely add a level of complexity to the game. Some of their strategies are really complex and require insane coordination.
I've seen some CSGO players grow in the last years and it's funny how they feel like they're doing terribly and all of a sudden, they get confident because they realize that they've got the basics. Once you figure out the basics and get comfortable with the mechanics, the game gets much more fun to play - even when you lose badly.
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I've never honestly played dota, but losing in starcraft makes me feel incredibly retarded and not want to play anymore.
That having said I rock the fucking planet in BF4. The funniest thing I realized, is that I basically always said the same thing to players who suck at it that the OP said.
Point is that it is easy to tell people to man the fuck up in a game (lets be honest though, if its a game you are not "manning" anything) if you are any good or average.
If you are shit it's a different story.
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I have a question for PFlax: How long were you playing before you got a group of friends to regularly play with? I think a lot of people just don't like playing by themselves.
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People are cunts
But rares are pretty
So play some Dota
Even though you're shitty
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On April 17 2014 21:47 PRJ wrote:
i don't play dota because it's poorly designed
i'm sure the game is a blast once you've spent an enormous amount of time memorizing things and learning the arcane rules, but i get more fun out of games that don't have that ridiculous requirement
I have over 2000 games played and I still don't know all of the mechanical nuances of Dota. Can't remember it ever getting in the way of me enjoying the game.
I think the only thing that's important as far as "hidden rules" goes is what does and doesn't penetrate magic immunity
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Trial and error, trial and error. Without the trial there won't be an error but then again there's nothing else either.
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On April 18 2014 01:26 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 00:44 PRJ wrote:On April 17 2014 22:05 Animzor wrote:On April 17 2014 21:47 PRJ wrote:
i don't play dota because it's poorly designed
i'm sure the game is a blast once you've spent an enormous amount of time memorizing things and learning the arcane rules, but i get more fun out of games that don't have that ridiculous requirement That's odd. The game is actually fun from the very start and the fact that there are always new things to learn makes it rewarding in a way that most games nowadays do not even come close to. I would say most games are time-wasters, dota on the other hand is something that you'll get more out of the more time you put into it. if you spent time on other games, you'd realize there's always something to learn in those, too, without all the nonsense that comes with the moba genre. The only real positive point to mobas is that tons of people play them. as a longtime comp player of fps games, those types of games can get you the same experience as a moba with a fraction of the boring, obnoxious memorization and the rage and people ruining games and excessive time commitments per game. I find I enjoy DotA and its various clones more than I do FPS games. You are right in that FPS games requires you to learn new things to improve. Take CS:GO, the positioning can always improve, reading of opponent can always improve, aim can always improve. Same is true for most FPS and DotA clone games. You can move between different games in the genre and transfer a lot of the same skill set. Then you get into the nitty gritty details and both rewards that. In CS:GO you might for example remember that aiming at a specific pixel makes a nade land in just that spot or that using the AK and hitting the left arm gives this damage score, with and without armour. These things wary game to game and is what makes one FPS different from another. Other examples include, specific weapon spreads, turn rates, chosen latency, travel time and movement speed by bunny hopping.
This right here is a great post - completely agree!
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This is why I only play bot games in LoL and DotA. I dont play the games very often at all, but when Im bored Ill hop into a bot game as an ADC and tear it up.
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I think people take games way too seriously in general. Way back in the early days of DotA I don't think anyone ever had any anxiety when they joined a random -apem pros only game on Bnet, and personally I think it's because back then people had a healthy approach to it. The game was about having fun, and that was it. People didn't join those games to practice offlane or whatever. Dota wasn't treated as anything more than a game. But nowadays right off the bat new players are directed to guides that are literally called "welcome to dota, you suck" or a day9 daily telling you "how to be a better gamer". If I go play cs:go in complete shit tier gold nova games, and I try to make a play instead of taking it safe, I get flamed to hell and back. But often I'd like to ask these people, what the fuck does it matter if I don't play the game "properly" or by the book. I'm not trying to imitate the way NiP plays with a bunch of randoms, when I know that I suck and couldn't do it anyway, and also because I want to try new stuff and just have fun. But I guess that's just wrong nowadays. It's all about the Rank or MMR or whatever, and being the next esport hero.
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On April 17 2014 21:47 PRJ wrote:
i don't play dota because it's poorly designed
i'm sure the game is a blast once you've spent an enormous amount of time memorizing things and learning the arcane rules, but i get more fun out of games that don't have that ridiculous requirement
What is there to memorize? Everything is simple, people just over complicate it for themselves because they're scared of something that looks too intelligent for them.
It's just a game, learn it like any other.
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On April 18 2014 06:06 aeroblaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 00:44 PRJ wrote:
if you spent time on other games, you'd realize there's always something to learn in those, too, without all the nonsense that comes with the moba genre. The only real positive point to mobas is that tons of people play them.
as a longtime comp player of fps games, those types of games can get you the same experience as a moba with a fraction of the boring, obnoxious memorization and the rage and people ruining games and excessive time commitments per game. What is there to memorize? Everything is simple, people just over complicate it for themselves because they're scared of something that looks too intelligent for them. It's just a game, learn it like any other.
There is a shit tonne to memorize. But its your muscles doing most of the memorization. Which is something learned by doing, not reading. And that's the problem people have. They want to read a guide, and suddenly be the second coming of Na'Vi.
Its specific to Vgame industry because people believe that they are "smart enough" to know the strategy of a non-physical game. This is because they believe Jocks are Dumb and that they are smart to compensate for their lack of Jock-ness.
When they "study" they want to automatically already have the skillset to execute said strategy. When they realize that they still need the physicality/practice to be able to play even video games (a non-physical sport) then suddenly not only are jocks better than them, but they are not better than jocks.
So, instead of facing their insecurities, they simply run away from the game and say "If I had more _____ I would be a good player."
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On April 17 2014 19:42 []Phase[] wrote:
You are trying to apply a logic; proving that human life is insignificant, and therefore concluding that people shouldn't feel so bad the way they do. The problem here is a psychological one however, and I believe can't simply be 'outreasoned'.
Let's take a more serious psychological issue, like a childhood trauma. People who go to the psychiatrist want to get rid of their trauma. Some of them probably also think like you, and say to themselves it is silly to feel the way they do. No matter how much logic they apply, they still feel bad however. The feeling is caused by something more than just our conciousness.
What you are saying here is equivalent to telling a patient "GOH, JUST DONT FEEL SO BAD, SILLY"; which obviously solves nothing.
If every psychological problem could be solved with simple self-applied logic, we wouldn't need psychiatrists would we?
The issue at hand here is nothing as problematic, but I think my example shows that you can't just 'will all your feelings away'.
And I think it's silly to assume so. I think YOU are the silly one here.
The problem with your assessment is that you immediately inject unknown variables into the equation. Obviously, if someone was sexually abused as a child by a man in Pudge cosplay, it would be understandable for them to be anxious about playing DotA online where they will play with/against a Pudge virtually every game. But this is no where near the majority of players. And as someone who has dealt with/continues to deal with no small amount of "ladder anxiety", I'd be hesitant to associate the word "traumatic" with it.
It's also worthy to note that in these kinds of situations a large part of the healing process is often to face and conquer your fears, not run from them.
But we can examine this with a simple analogy. I don't know how old you are, but lets say you're a parent, and you have a child who loves baseball. He never misses a game, he's memorized all the stats, he loves playing catch with you in the backyard, and he's always working on his pop flies, his batting stance, ect. But when Saturday rolls around, he just sits in the stands and watches the other kids play. Maybe he's afraid his practice won't translate into a real game, or that he'll fail, or otherwise make a fool of himself in front of others. Whats the best course of action here? Do you encourage him to conquer his fears, and put all his hard work to use? Or do you placate him; telling him thats its okay to not want to play. That you'll play catch with him whenever he wants, and bring him to the batting cages on Saturdays instead of the ballpark.
Keep in mind I'm not ruling out the possibility that the latter might actually be conceivably better in certain situations. But I think most people would clearly see that helping your child overcome their anxiety and play a game of ball with their friends would be the preferable solution.
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Its not fear its stress. When people insult me for not contributing to the team at the level they expect why should I continue to play when I can play other games where I have more experience and co op is more fun and appreciative. People in competitive games like Starcraft and Dota are less welcoming and fun to play with than FPS communities or games like Dark Souls. When I play games like Dota and SC2 people spend most of their time communicating lobbing insults and puffing up their own ego, I don't tolerate people like that in real life among coworkers or family why would I tolerate in my free time with a complete stranger.
The other day I was watching Arteezy streaming and he repeatedly called out another player on his team playing void walker for doing a bad job by insulting him multiple times. The player eventually rage quit and obviously felt like crap for the way he was treated and since Arteezy is a pro the rest of the team felt comfortable piling on the criticism. That environment is not fun for new players and its not something I would waste time with.
Not wanting to subject myself to being treated that way has nothing to do with fear its about enjoying the game I'm playing. I play plenty of hard games and have long sessions of Dark Souls PvP and plenty of other games from racing games to CoD. When I spend my time playing games I do so to have fun and reduce stress in my life. I have nothing to prove to anyone I don't even know who PyrionFlax is much less care how he perceives me. I care about having fun and enjoying what I'm doing. In a game like Dota I don't get that experience so why would I spend my time playing it? I won't I spend my time on games that make my life better not games that gain me the approval of 13 year old boys.
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100% agree, ladder anxiety(sc2) is a funny thing.
Losing is how you get better !!!!!
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EPT
