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On September 28 2013 08:23 sam!zdat wrote:
don't be silly, the OP is about how you don't have to take tradeoffs seriously and how magic capitalist innovation will allow you to have infinite growth with finite resources and it doesn't matter because innovation. There are no real problems in the world because, you know, shades of gray, man. It's all kinda complicated so, like, damn the torpedos brah.
bah. Anyway, for realsies imma unsubscribe, have fun feeling sophisticated because you're not some silly environmentalist who doesn't understand about economics 101. Supply and demand! Rational actors! The market knows best! It's the hidden hand! Like, DUH!!!
You are coming off the hinges buddy. Relax, go meditate. 
Besides, us liberals are a shrinking minority. We have already lost the war. It's a war between the socialists and the corporatists now, but I'm starting to realize more and more they are just two sides of the same coin, different representations of the clamoring for state power.
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On September 28 2013 09:34 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 08:23 sam!zdat wrote:
don't be silly, the OP is about how you don't have to take tradeoffs seriously and how magic capitalist innovation will allow you to have infinite growth with finite resources and it doesn't matter because innovation. There are no real problems in the world because, you know, shades of gray, man. It's all kinda complicated so, like, damn the torpedos brah.
bah. Anyway, for realsies imma unsubscribe, have fun feeling sophisticated because you're not some silly environmentalist who doesn't understand about economics 101. Supply and demand! Rational actors! The market knows best! It's the hidden hand! Like, DUH!!! You are coming off the hinges buddy. Relax, go meditate. Besides, us liberals are a shrinking minority. We have already lost the war. It's a war between the socialists and the corporatists now, but I'm starting to realize more and more they are just two sides of the same coin, different representations of the clamoring for state power.
I'm too tired to respond to samisdat, but him being a liberal is quite a stretch. he himself said he's an environmentalist. The environment won't be saved by less rules but by more. at least that is my experience with them.
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On September 28 2013 10:02 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 09:34 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:On September 28 2013 08:23 sam!zdat wrote:
don't be silly, the OP is about how you don't have to take tradeoffs seriously and how magic capitalist innovation will allow you to have infinite growth with finite resources and it doesn't matter because innovation. There are no real problems in the world because, you know, shades of gray, man. It's all kinda complicated so, like, damn the torpedos brah.
bah. Anyway, for realsies imma unsubscribe, have fun feeling sophisticated because you're not some silly environmentalist who doesn't understand about economics 101. Supply and demand! Rational actors! The market knows best! It's the hidden hand! Like, DUH!!! You are coming off the hinges buddy. Relax, go meditate. Besides, us liberals are a shrinking minority. We have already lost the war. It's a war between the socialists and the corporatists now, but I'm starting to realize more and more they are just two sides of the same coin, different representations of the clamoring for state power. I'm too tired to respond to samisdat, but him being a liberal is quite a stretch. he himself said he's an environmentalist. The environment won't be saved by less rules but by more. at least that is my experience with them.
Wasn't calling him a liberal. It's pretty clear by now that he can't stand liberals.
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On September 29 2013 01:28 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 10:02 Hryul wrote:On September 28 2013 09:34 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:On September 28 2013 08:23 sam!zdat wrote:
don't be silly, the OP is about how you don't have to take tradeoffs seriously and how magic capitalist innovation will allow you to have infinite growth with finite resources and it doesn't matter because innovation. There are no real problems in the world because, you know, shades of gray, man. It's all kinda complicated so, like, damn the torpedos brah.
bah. Anyway, for realsies imma unsubscribe, have fun feeling sophisticated because you're not some silly environmentalist who doesn't understand about economics 101. Supply and demand! Rational actors! The market knows best! It's the hidden hand! Like, DUH!!! You are coming off the hinges buddy. Relax, go meditate. Besides, us liberals are a shrinking minority. We have already lost the war. It's a war between the socialists and the corporatists now, but I'm starting to realize more and more they are just two sides of the same coin, different representations of the clamoring for state power. I'm too tired to respond to samisdat, but him being a liberal is quite a stretch. he himself said he's an environmentalist. The environment won't be saved by less rules but by more. at least that is my experience with them. Wasn't calling him a liberal. It's pretty clear by now that he can't stand liberals.
I'm sorry, I misread that. It was the combination of addressing him and then following it with "us" in the next paragraph.
Edit: This WE was quite a ride for me. But to briefly add something about what Samisdat said about waste: There are ofc 2 different kind of waste: toxic and non toxic. The toxic one needs to be adressed before being released "into nature".
Non toxic waste is a resource, which is reflected by the recycling done in all western worlds. So we are not "drowning" in waste b/c we can reuse some and bury the other. The only thing "gone" is nuclear fuel. Even Oil can be "reextracted from air".
And one man's waste is another man's treasure: When people first encountered wolfram/tungsten, they thought it was waste, an unwanted byproduct of mining. Nowadays we need it for jet engines. And when we first realized it's use, we went right after all the "waste".
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On September 29 2013 03:39 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 01:28 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:On September 28 2013 10:02 Hryul wrote:On September 28 2013 09:34 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:On September 28 2013 08:23 sam!zdat wrote:
don't be silly, the OP is about how you don't have to take tradeoffs seriously and how magic capitalist innovation will allow you to have infinite growth with finite resources and it doesn't matter because innovation. There are no real problems in the world because, you know, shades of gray, man. It's all kinda complicated so, like, damn the torpedos brah.
bah. Anyway, for realsies imma unsubscribe, have fun feeling sophisticated because you're not some silly environmentalist who doesn't understand about economics 101. Supply and demand! Rational actors! The market knows best! It's the hidden hand! Like, DUH!!! You are coming off the hinges buddy. Relax, go meditate. Besides, us liberals are a shrinking minority. We have already lost the war. It's a war between the socialists and the corporatists now, but I'm starting to realize more and more they are just two sides of the same coin, different representations of the clamoring for state power. I'm too tired to respond to samisdat, but him being a liberal is quite a stretch. he himself said he's an environmentalist. The environment won't be saved by less rules but by more. at least that is my experience with them. Wasn't calling him a liberal. It's pretty clear by now that he can't stand liberals. I'm sorry, I misread that. It was the combination of addressing him and then following it with "us" in the next paragraph. Edit: This WE was quite a ride for me. But to briefly add something about what Samisdat said about waste: There are ofc 2 different kind of waste: toxic and non toxic. The toxic one needs to be adressed before being released "into nature". Non toxic waste is a resource, which is reflected by the recycling done in all western worlds. So we are not "drowning" in waste b/c we can reuse some and bury the other. The only thing "gone" is nuclear fuel. Even Oil can be "reextracted from air". And one man's waste is another man's treasure: When people first encountered wolfram/tungsten, they thought it was waste, an unwanted byproduct of mining. Nowadays we need it for jet engines. And when we first realized it's use, we went right after all the "waste".
That's preposterous. No one is concerned we are going to run out of material. The issue is energy and its associated cost.
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On October 09 2013 16:14 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 03:39 Hryul wrote:On September 29 2013 01:28 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:On September 28 2013 10:02 Hryul wrote:On September 28 2013 09:34 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:On September 28 2013 08:23 sam!zdat wrote:
don't be silly, the OP is about how you don't have to take tradeoffs seriously and how magic capitalist innovation will allow you to have infinite growth with finite resources and it doesn't matter because innovation. There are no real problems in the world because, you know, shades of gray, man. It's all kinda complicated so, like, damn the torpedos brah.
bah. Anyway, for realsies imma unsubscribe, have fun feeling sophisticated because you're not some silly environmentalist who doesn't understand about economics 101. Supply and demand! Rational actors! The market knows best! It's the hidden hand! Like, DUH!!! You are coming off the hinges buddy. Relax, go meditate. Besides, us liberals are a shrinking minority. We have already lost the war. It's a war between the socialists and the corporatists now, but I'm starting to realize more and more they are just two sides of the same coin, different representations of the clamoring for state power. I'm too tired to respond to samisdat, but him being a liberal is quite a stretch. he himself said he's an environmentalist. The environment won't be saved by less rules but by more. at least that is my experience with them. Wasn't calling him a liberal. It's pretty clear by now that he can't stand liberals. I'm sorry, I misread that. It was the combination of addressing him and then following it with "us" in the next paragraph. Edit: This WE was quite a ride for me. But to briefly add something about what Samisdat said about waste: There are ofc 2 different kind of waste: toxic and non toxic. The toxic one needs to be adressed before being released "into nature". Non toxic waste is a resource, which is reflected by the recycling done in all western worlds. So we are not "drowning" in waste b/c we can reuse some and bury the other. The only thing "gone" is nuclear fuel. Even Oil can be "reextracted from air". And one man's waste is another man's treasure: When people first encountered wolfram/tungsten, they thought it was waste, an unwanted byproduct of mining. Nowadays we need it for jet engines. And when we first realized it's use, we went right after all the "waste". That's preposterous. No one is concerned we are going to run out of material. The issue is energy and its associated cost.
that was not was sam said.
On September 28 2013 05:32 sam!zdat wrote:
You want to avoid this problem and place all your faith in a techno-messianic solution where we can all magically live wasteful suburban lives and not choke to death on our own excrement.
This sounds a lot like "material" is a problem for him.
And the "cost" for energy is energy and material.
But just to make it clear: I see that there are problems with energy supply, environmental pollution and living standards. I am simply questioning that the current proposed solutions like windmills or solar panels work w/o a suitable storage system. Also the "learning of abdication(? wording?)" sounds awful from a liberal standpoint because I'm giving up freedom for some unclear, mystical "protected" environment and it's not even clear if it has any positive effects.
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EPT
