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I came into college 90% sure that I was going the pre-med -> doctor route. Since then though its been dropping due to a variety of factors. Most of all is the worthlessness of so-called "resources" on those sides of the college-- people not at office hours, people giving me no/crap advice, people not answering emails, those kind of things. Next is how people "do things for med school".
Volunteering? For med school.
Research? For med school.
It's all lip service and it makes me feel incredibly cynical and jaded. Now don't get me wrong, there's some great people there as well. But still.
On the side though, I'm am also going the business route. It was kind of my side major, but since I got into the B-school I decided it was unfair to treat it that way. So I gave it a bit more effort. I've gotten a much warmer reception-- I continue to be shocked by what should be considered routine-- actually getting a response to my emails among other things. So my med school/ other (business) career probabilities dropped to maybe 70/30. You'll notice I frame this from the pre-med perspective.
First and foremost my motivation for being a doctor was to help people. It may sound a bit lame, but I wanted to do something good in the world. Being a doctor was the profession that aligned most closely with my moral compass. In case you're curious, yes, I do have a very old-fashioned set of values.
Recently though, I wondered how much good could I do there-- what could I truly accomplish as a doctor? The American healthcare system is broken, hemorrhaging talent, money and resources. What could I do as another cog in a broken machine? More than likely I'd be stuck in a hospital working long shifts, seeing mostly in-patients (unless I did Emergency Medicine). I might ease someone here, save a life over there, but that would be the limit of my powers.
Maybe it would be better to try and fix the broken machine that is the healthcare system. Maybe doing something in the business school to look at making the healthcare system more effective and efficient would be a better way to achieve my career and moral goals. If I could cut even one or two percent of inefficiency from a hospital, I could potentially help more people than I could in 20 years of being a doctor.
I still want the white coat. But I'd be okay trading it for a black suit jacket. I'll hold off saying I quit pre-med. I'm 50/50 now, or at least that's what I stubbornly tell myself. I'm more or less done with my pre-med requirements-- Bio, Chem, Orgo, with only the need for a letter on a transcript to confirm Physics, which essentially I'm taking for the third time. I'l finish my Bio major. I'm not quitting because its too hard. I'm not quitting at all. Yet.
 
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Ya, i just changed my major from pharmacy to chem E. Almost the same really, but i think Chem E would be much more enjoyable.
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The last thing anyone should be doing right now is going to Med School to become an M.D.
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Do you have any particular reason for saying that?
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On September 16 2013 09:46 TheWorldToCome wrote:
The last thing anyone should be doing right now is going to Med School to become an M.D.
With the way I see it, I think this is actually pretty sound. I thought I was gonna do pre-med, but now I see why it's not a great option in general, medicine is a changing field right now, and I don't know if I want to get locked up in the chaos.
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Good luck with the switch, don't build up too much debt! (Like switching to law school two years into business)
Nothing says a doctor lawyer mba wouldn't be successful though!
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So you complain about having to go through "lip service" for med, then immediately get taken in by the lip service the business school gives you?
The rest of your post is just rationalising your already chosen decision. One day when you're a public lobbyist or a corporate agent exploiting the system rather than fixing it, you'll look back on this day as when it all started to go wrong.
But hey, you'll be sitting on a mountain of cash, so what do you care?
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On September 16 2013 09:46 TheWorldToCome wrote:
The last thing anyone should be doing right now is going to Med School to become an M.D.
elaborate
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On September 16 2013 08:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
I came into college 90% sure that I was going the pre-med -> doctor route. Since then though its been dropping due to a variety of factors. Most of all is the worthlessness of so-called "resources" on those sides of the college-- people not at office hours, people giving me no/crap advice, people not answering emails, those kind of things. Next is how people "do things for med school".
Volunteering? For med school.
Research? For med school.
It's all lip service and it makes me feel incredibly cynical and jaded. Now don't get me wrong, there's some great people there as well. But still.
On the side though, I'm am also going the business route. It was kind of my side major, but since I got into the B-school I decided it was unfair to treat it that way. So I gave it a bit more effort. I've gotten a much warmer reception-- I continue to be shocked by what should be considered routine-- actually getting a response to my emails among other things. So my med school/ other (business) career probabilities dropped to maybe 70/30. You'll notice I frame this from the pre-med perspective.
First and foremost my motivation for being a doctor was to help people. It may sound a bit lame, but I wanted to do something good in the world. Being a doctor was the profession that aligned most closely with my moral compass. In case you're curious, yes, I do have a very old-fashioned set of values.
Recently though, I wondered how much good could I do there-- what could I truly accomplish as a doctor? The American healthcare system is broken, hemorrhaging talent, money and resources. What could I do as another cog in a broken machine? More than likely I'd be stuck in a hospital working long shifts, seeing mostly in-patients (unless I did Emergency Medicine). I might ease someone here, save a life over there, but that would be the limit of my powers.
Maybe it would be better to try and fix the broken machine that is the healthcare system. Maybe doing something in the business school to look at making the healthcare system more effective and efficient would be a better way to achieve my career and moral goals. If I could cut even one or two percent of inefficiency from a hospital, I could potentially help more people than I could in 20 years of being a doctor.
I still want the white coat. But I'd be okay trading it for a black suit jacket. I'll hold off saying I quit pre-med. I'm 50/50 now, or at least that's what I stubbornly tell myself. I'm more or less done with my pre-med requirements-- Bio, Chem, Orgo, with only the need for a letter on a transcript to confirm Physics, which essentially I'm taking for the third time. I'l finish my Bio major. I'm not quitting because its too hard. I'm not quitting at all. Yet.
You aren't ever going to help fix the broken machine that is the healthcare system by going into business. You are overwhelmingly likely to never work on policy for healthcare in any meaningful way. Saying that you would be helping more people by cutting 1% to 2% in "inefficiency" from a hospital than actual ministering to them as a caring and competent doctor is ridiculous on it's face.
Frankly, I find it dumbfounding that you are asking yourself the question, "what could I truly accomplish as a doctor?" and deciding that you could accomplish more as a business student turned businessman. Describing doctors as "cogs" in a broken system but not MBA's shows a serious blind spot. You seem to not really understand what the average MBA does everyday. You seem not to really understand what most jobs are comprised of.
On the other hand. I can't really advise that you continue into med school if you are taking physics for the third time and don't really want to be a doctor anyway. Just don't be fooled that business will help you accomplish any "moral" goals.
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On September 16 2013 15:19 Ianuus wrote:
So you complain about having to go through "lip service" for med, then immediately get taken in by the lip service the business school gives you?
The rest of your post is just rationalising your already chosen decision. One day when you're a public lobbyist or a corporate agent exploiting the system rather than fixing it, you'll look back on this day as when it all started to go wrong.
But hey, you'll be sitting on a mountain of cash, so what do you care?
I have to agree with this man.
The rationale presented behind not being able to contribute much help as a doctor is... less than satisfactory imo.
Doctors do a lot of helping on a case by case basis, but if your goal is to help the population at large medical science and research is where it is at.
Not everyone was meant to be a doctor and its much better realising that now rather than 10 years down the track, but blaming the general attitude of medical applicants (that is my understanding of what you mean by pre-med, sorry im not familiar with american terminology for that) as lip service would not be too fair imo, as they are doing it as it must be part of the requirement or needed to get into the course.
Edit: I also think, imo, business and medicine attract two very different type of people whom I'd say are usually two mostly exclusive groups so I find it interesting your weighing up the options between them two.
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On September 16 2013 15:19 Ianuus wrote:
So you complain about having to go through "lip service" for med, then immediately get taken in by the lip service the business school gives you?
The rest of your post is just rationalising your already chosen decision. One day when you're a public lobbyist or a corporate agent exploiting the system rather than fixing it, you'll look back on this day as when it all started to go wrong.
But hey, you'll be sitting on a mountain of cash, so what do you care?
So you're Australian and probably don't know about the US healthcare system. In a nutshell, it sucks.
Healthcare costs per capita in the US are twice that of other nations. Despite that, we rank terribly in terms of infant mortality, expected lifespan, etc. We have a dozen different systems for a dozen different types of people-- military, Native American, elderly, poor, not to mention all the hundreds of different plans. It's a disaster. The industry is run for-profit as opposed to any other country, resulting in approximately 20 cents of every dollar going toward advertising, profit and other non-directly related purposes. Drugs and procedures (like textbooks) cost tenfold what they do in other countries.
Doctors in America are the best, but at what cost? It takes 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school and anywhere from 2 to 6 years of residency. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. The medical education system is broken too. In other countries if you want to be a doctor you start 'med school' right away, pay significantly less and come out significantly faster. You get paid less. I wish dearly America had that kind of system.
I've done close to 200 hours of shadowing. A couple of the doctors I've been with have been brilliant and wonderful, others not so much. However, all they do is see inpatients, aka those who can afford it. On that note, 20% of the US is uninsured. Medical bills are listed on significant number of personal bankruptcies.
Its bad. I'm sure I could be a good doctor, maybe even a great one. But I can't really be satisfied by treating one or two patients at a time when I've seen the waiting room at the ER. I go in to shadow at 6 AM, some people are still there at lunch around 12. Others are still there when I leave at 6PM.
I actually don't care how much I make. As long as its enough to afford the basics plus internet and dinner with friends now and then, I'm fine. It's fine if you don't believe it because you don't know me and I don't know you, but that's that. I'll condescend to condescend.
The fact of the matter is that all industries need people who care.
On the other hand. I can't really advise that you continue into med school if you are taking physics for the third time and don't really want to be a doctor anyway. Just don't be fooled that business will help you accomplish any "moral" goals.
Physics for third time because I took in high school and audited the class already (would have taken it over the summer, but I can't afford paying for summer classes), but I need to take it at my school to get it on the transcript. I'm miles from failing it- wasn't clear on that I guess. I have like a 3.7 on the science side and a 3.9 on the business side.
On September 16 2013 20:27 CHiPZ wrote:
I have to agree with this man.
The rationale presented behind not being able to contribute much help as a doctor is... less than satisfactory imo.
Doctors do a lot of helping on a case by case basis, but if your goal is to help the population at large medical science and research is where it is at.
Not everyone was meant to be a doctor and its much better realising that now rather than 10 years down the track, but blaming the general attitude of medical applicants (that is my understanding of what you mean by pre-med, sorry im not familiar with american terminology for that) as lip service would not be too fair imo, as they are doing it as it must be part of the requirement or needed to get into the course.
Edit: I also think, imo, business and medicine attract two very different type of people whom I'd say are usually two mostly exclusive groups so I find it interesting your weighing up the options between them two.
Again, American healthcare system sucks.
Yes. I know people who talk about what a huge coup it was that they found a position at some nonprofit answering phone calls, where in actuality they did nothing but can say was 200 hours of volunteer work. It's fucking sad. I volunteer at a homeless shelter sometimes, and a couple of those assholes are there. On the first day, one told me "this is going to look great on my resume, like I actually care about poor people!" (or something to that effect). I almost punched him in the face.
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it sounds a lot more to me like you're dropping the med thing because your teachers are a pain in the ass than out of social idealism. honestly that just sounds like retroactive justifying bullshit when you realized the profession just didn't seem that fun and that you hated your profs.
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I actually feel the opposite about Business School. I don't know how the culture is over in Med schools are but in some parts of my school, people seriously come off to me as sociopaths. I'm talking like kids coming to class dressed work when they don't work. Looking at yahoo finance when they don't have anything invested... But of course I believe many of these guys are just a bit immature, having dreams, talking the talk but never actually walking the walk.
Then those who do walk the walk, these guys are either relatively down to Earth, or come off as complete sociopaths. Or maybe it has to do with something about me being the introvert, and them being extremely extroverted (networking DING DING). If I could go back in time I'd just go straight to Computer Science and really dig myself deep into it... because majoring in the business IT side of things exposes me to these guys so much it sickens me. Everyone seems fake and it's awful, I don't care if they make a lot of money, I couldn't be happy living like that.
What a rant.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On September 17 2013 02:42 Snuggles wrote:
I actually feel the opposite about Business School. I don't know how the culture is over in Med schools are but in some parts of my school, people seriously come off to me as sociopaths. I'm talking like kids coming to class dressed work when they don't work. Looking at yahoo finance when they don't have anything invested... But of course I believe many of these guys are just a bit immature, having dreams, talking the talk but never actually walking the walk.
Then those who do walk the walk, these guys are either relatively down to Earth, or come off as complete sociopaths. Or maybe it has to do with something about me being the introvert, and them being extremely extroverted (networking DING DING). If I could go back in time I'd just go straight to Computer Science and really dig myself deep into it... because majoring in the business IT side of things exposes me to these guys so much it sickens me. Everyone seems fake and it's awful, I don't care if they make a lot of money, I couldn't be happy living like that.
What a rant.
this is a pretty accurate description of business school =]
as someone who did both business (finance) and pre-med at a 'top" business undergrad:
there are scumbags and really shallow artificial annoying people in both of these paths. in fact i think its hard to find any two other paths that have more of these people, so if you want a major where you're gonna be surrounded by pleasant moral people who are advancing social good, neither of these are a good choice lol
if you actually enjoy one of these, and put in appropriate effort, im sure you can achieve a lot, but i'm not sure , based on your post, that this describes you
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On September 16 2013 08:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
I came into college 90% sure that I was going the pre-med -> doctor route. Since then though its been dropping due to a variety of factors. Most of all is the worthlessness of so-called "resources" on those sides of the college-- people not at office hours, people giving me no/crap advice, people not answering emails, those kind of things. Next is how people "do things for med school".
Volunteering? For med school.
Research? For med school.
It's all lip service and it makes me feel incredibly cynical and jaded. Now don't get me wrong, there's some great people there as well. But still.
On the side though, I'm am also going the business route. It was kind of my side major, but since I got into the B-school I decided it was unfair to treat it that way. So I gave it a bit more effort. I've gotten a much warmer reception-- I continue to be shocked by what should be considered routine-- actually getting a response to my emails among other things. So my med school/ other (business) career probabilities dropped to maybe 70/30. You'll notice I frame this from the pre-med perspective.
First and foremost my motivation for being a doctor was to help people. It may sound a bit lame, but I wanted to do something good in the world. Being a doctor was the profession that aligned most closely with my moral compass. In case you're curious, yes, I do have a very old-fashioned set of values.
Recently though, I wondered how much good could I do there-- what could I truly accomplish as a doctor? The American healthcare system is broken, hemorrhaging talent, money and resources. What could I do as another cog in a broken machine? More than likely I'd be stuck in a hospital working long shifts, seeing mostly in-patients (unless I did Emergency Medicine). I might ease someone here, save a life over there, but that would be the limit of my powers.
Maybe it would be better to try and fix the broken machine that is the healthcare system. Maybe doing something in the business school to look at making the healthcare system more effective and efficient would be a better way to achieve my career and moral goals. If I could cut even one or two percent of inefficiency from a hospital, I could potentially help more people than I could in 20 years of being a doctor.
I still want the white coat. But I'd be okay trading it for a black suit jacket. I'll hold off saying I quit pre-med. I'm 50/50 now, or at least that's what I stubbornly tell myself. I'm more or less done with my pre-med requirements-- Bio, Chem, Orgo, with only the need for a letter on a transcript to confirm Physics, which essentially I'm taking for the third time. I'l finish my Bio major. I'm not quitting because its too hard. I'm not quitting at all. Yet.
I'm pretty sure you would help far far more people as a doctor than a businessperson.
Why would you object to being a cog in a machine, and then immediately go for an MBA? It sounds like you didn't really enjoy medicine, and are trying to rationalize your decision. Unless you're dead set on studying ACOs or something, I place the odds of you having any effect on the healthcare industry from a business standpoint at under 1%.
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On September 16 2013 23:21 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 15:19 Ianuus wrote:
So you complain about having to go through "lip service" for med, then immediately get taken in by the lip service the business school gives you?
The rest of your post is just rationalising your already chosen decision. One day when you're a public lobbyist or a corporate agent exploiting the system rather than fixing it, you'll look back on this day as when it all started to go wrong.
But hey, you'll be sitting on a mountain of cash, so what do you care? So you're Australian and probably don't know about the US healthcare system. In a nutshell, it sucks. Healthcare costs per capita in the US are twice that of other nations. Despite that, we rank terribly in terms of infant mortality, expected lifespan, etc. We have a dozen different systems for a dozen different types of people-- military, Native American, elderly, poor, not to mention all the hundreds of different plans. It's a disaster. The industry is run for-profit as opposed to any other country, resulting in approximately 20 cents of every dollar going toward advertising, profit and other non-directly related purposes. Drugs and procedures (like textbooks) cost tenfold what they do in other countries. Doctors in America are the best, but at what cost? It takes 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school and anywhere from 2 to 6 years of residency. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. The medical education system is broken too. In other countries if you want to be a doctor you start 'med school' right away, pay significantly less and come out significantly faster. You get paid less. I wish dearly America had that kind of system. I've done close to 200 hours of shadowing. A couple of the doctors I've been with have been brilliant and wonderful, others not so much. However, all they do is see inpatients, aka those who can afford it. On that note, 20% of the US is uninsured. Medical bills are listed on significant number of personal bankruptcies. Its bad. I'm sure I could be a good doctor, maybe even a great one. But I can't really be satisfied by treating one or two patients at a time when I've seen the waiting room at the ER. I go in to shadow at 6 AM, some people are still there at lunch around 12. Others are still there when I leave at 6PM. I actually don't care how much I make. As long as its enough to afford the basics plus internet and dinner with friends now and then, I'm fine. It's fine if you don't believe it because you don't know me and I don't know you, but that's that. I'll condescend to condescend. The fact of the matter is that all industries need people who care. Show nested quote +On the other hand. I can't really advise that you continue into med school if you are taking physics for the third time and don't really want to be a doctor anyway. Just don't be fooled that business will help you accomplish any "moral" goals.
Physics for third time because I took in high school and audited the class already (would have taken it over the summer, but I can't afford paying for summer classes), but I need to take it at my school to get it on the transcript. I'm miles from failing it- wasn't clear on that I guess. I have like a 3.7 on the science side and a 3.9 on the business side. Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 20:27 CHiPZ wrote:
I have to agree with this man.
The rationale presented behind not being able to contribute much help as a doctor is... less than satisfactory imo.
Doctors do a lot of helping on a case by case basis, but if your goal is to help the population at large medical science and research is where it is at.
Not everyone was meant to be a doctor and its much better realising that now rather than 10 years down the track, but blaming the general attitude of medical applicants (that is my understanding of what you mean by pre-med, sorry im not familiar with american terminology for that) as lip service would not be too fair imo, as they are doing it as it must be part of the requirement or needed to get into the course.
Edit: I also think, imo, business and medicine attract two very different type of people whom I'd say are usually two mostly exclusive groups so I find it interesting your weighing up the options between them two. Again, American healthcare system sucks. Yes. I know people who talk about what a huge coup it was that they found a position at some nonprofit answering phone calls, where in actuality they did nothing but can say was 200 hours of volunteer work. It's fucking sad. I volunteer at a homeless shelter sometimes, and a couple of those assholes are there. On the first day, one told me "this is going to look great on my resume, like I actually care about poor people!" (or something to that effect). I almost punched him in the face.
if you go to business school, you will learn that is how the real world operates. If you can't make a profit from what you do in order to sustain a certain standard of living, you will not be able to do it. Money drives 95% of things in this world
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I read this thread yesterday and I didn't say anything because if that's what you want to do, that's what you want to do... But I'll just drop this here.
I understand that there are issues with the whole field of medicine but if you have the capacities to be there and any will to be there, it's such a great and noble thing to study and to practice. On the other hand, and forgive me for this, but business school is so fucking sad... It's so boring and a disgusting part of our society. Certainly it's a good and somewhat easy way to make a living but for the love of fuck, talk about doing nothing good with your life.
And I don't mean to insult anybody but if I had ever been on my way to perhaps saving lives sometime down the line and I demoted myself to this guy who'll count someone else's money and will look for ways to fuck other people and businesses out of their money for corporate gain, I wouldn't feel so great about it. And I don't judge anybody who chooses to go to business school, I would have done it myself if I had the slightest bit of affinity with the domain because I admittedly think of myself first... But let's just say there's quite a gap between an MBA and a MD.
MBA's help the corporations and actively do dirty work for them. Their purpose, when not purely administrative, is oftentimes to just find ways to fuck the little guy a little, through subtle maneuvering... Certainly, there are good things about capitalism, but the MBA's represent what's worse of it. They're not the ones who innovate, they're not the ones who help society move forward. They protect corporate interests. Leading a good life is cool and all but I'm thinking a MD is more likely to leave a legacy to be proud of.
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As someone who moved from Business school, to medicine, to business again, and to public health, and finally now back to medicine because of similar reasons, I can safely say that your logic is not really there. I'm not sure if you know what an MBA does, or really what working in a company is like. Or hell, what an MD does, and what working in a hospital is like.
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On September 17 2013 12:16 Chaggi wrote:
As someone who moved from Business school, to medicine, to business again, and to public health, and finally now back to medicine because of similar reasons, I can safely say that your logic is not really there. I'm not sure if you know what an MBA does, or really what working in a company is like. Or hell, what an MD does, and what working in a hospital is like.
If you're talking to me, I have a bunch of friends with MBAs with various jobs. None of them are proud of what they do, they just accumulate money and they think their job is a means to an end.
I don't know many doctors, but a good acquaintance of mine (friend of a friend) is in the middle of his residency and while he's very overworked, he's very proud of what he does. He has this story about that one time when someone had some sort of "malaise" in an airplane and he was one of them. And I know that most of the work is not glamorous at all, which in my eyes makes MD's that much more impressive. If you can perform an enema in the morning and make a diagnosis that'll save a person's life or make their life better.
I don't need to know exactly what happens in hospitals to know what doctors do. My grandpa almost died a bunch of times in the last year, we nearly lost him. I was devastated that I couldn't say goodbye. And this doctor, a cardiothoracic surgeon, who's family name was Nguyen, saved his life, or at least extended it. As did a bunch of oncologists, and the nurses, and all those people.
Meanwhile my buddy with his MBA works for a big corp that makes various hardware and he makes large orders of indeterminate part numbers to restock a warehouse. And he makes good money, too.
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please don't go to busyness school
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here comes sam!zdat with the anti-corporatism
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On September 16 2013 08:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
I came into college 90% sure that I was going the pre-med -> doctor route. Since then though its been dropping due to a variety of factors. Most of all is the worthlessness of so-called "resources" on those sides of the college-- people not at office hours, people giving me no/crap advice, people not answering emails, those kind of things. Next is how people "do things for med school".
Volunteering? For med school.
Research? For med school.
It's all lip service and it makes me feel incredibly cynical and jaded. Now don't get me wrong, there's some great people there as well. But still.
This happens at every major where people want to get ahead in their lives. I'd argue that business school is even worse than you think it would be, since you have to pay lip service to everyone and network in order to get into a big firm to start (There's a reason why most people of power started at famous business companies). If you're not well-connected, you'll be spending time sucking up to recruiters and polishing your resume by volunteering, interning, and/or researching on why they should pick you over some kid who's family is already in the business and/or top-tier school.
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EPT
