• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 01:57
CET 07:57
KST 15:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win
Tourneys
StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
Let's talk about Metropolis [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Foreign Brood War
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
YouTube Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
Physical Exertion During Gam…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1875 users

SC2 Notes: PvT Solution Using Geometry

Blogs > SC2John
Post a Reply
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
August 23 2013 17:26 GMT
#1
_

If you're a protoss player, does this look familiar?

[image loading]

Yes, the bullshit "SCV pull before you have storm" strategy. It seems to be the thing now that we see in almost every pro TvP. If it's not that, it's just a really powerful maxout with mass barracks units before the 3rd is fully established and storm is plentiful. So, as a protoss player, how do we deal with this? A few weeks ago, Day9 did a daily on First vs. FantaSy in the OSL Ro16. In said game, First demolished FantaSy's attempts at mine drops, hellbat drops, and easily deflected most of FantaSy's deadly attacks. While I won't focus on the mine drops now (see older blog post here), I will focus on how First managed to parry FantaSy's really strong direct pushes. And I will do so using geometry.

[image loading]

In my crude drawing, I've created 2 examples using blue for the protoss army and red for the terran army. In the top drawing, we see what happens when a protoss player engages a terran player directly in an open field or at a ramp. If we take a minute and ignore viking positioning and stalker positioning and all that, we see that generally both groups engage each other in straight lines. In this situation, the protoss player has templar trailing in the back of the army, meaning that terran can easily spot templar and (with good micro) snipe/EMP the templar. The terran also has plenty of room to spread and kite against zealots/storms/colossus, and this means that terran can also get a good arc (as shown).

HOWEVER, the second example shows a protoss player who pulls VERY far back, keeping zealots/templars on flanks. You can see this in action in the Day9 daily, P2. In this example, the protoss naturally surrounds the terran army and leaves them no place to run. The protoss player also naturally chokes the terran player with how their army moves and how the surround works. In an actual terrain choke, this is even stronger. This particular tactic is SUPER strong and works very very well against these horrible maxed out attacks that feel so impossible. Here is another drawing to further illustrate my point:

[image loading]

As you can see, there's a natural pincer movement you get from moving your main army back. If you were to have your main army at the ramp, you would have a straight line of engagement with all of your templar behind your army. Yes, they would come at slightly different angles, but they would still all come from the same general direction. By pulling back your main army, you're essentially setting up a huge concave.

Anyways, just been thinking about this, especially after seeing bullshit push after bullshit push in professional games and noticing protoss players trying to engage in a direct line. I want to try to focus on this in my play more, and I hope this helps others as well!

:D

_

**
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Ktk
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)753 Posts
August 24 2013 08:09 GMT
#2
Also known as: how zerg players win?
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
August 24 2013 10:52 GMT
#3
On August 24 2013 17:09 Ktk wrote:
Also known as: how zerg players win?


Except against 4M, because that's actually impossible ;p.

But seriously, ZvT geometry looks a little bit different just because of how mines/tanks are placed. Generally the terran army looks like a straight line from their base to yours, where the weakest points are simply an interruption of that line. It's probably closer to this triangle geometry in ZvP and ZvZ though.

But yeah, it's definitely something Protoss players can learn from...I think we're so used to having the deathball that can walk over everything that we're not AS used to positioning as the other races. Either way, I'm learning that some simple positional play goes a really long way when playing protoss (example: again, in that First vs. FantaSy game, First ALWAYS does warpins in multiple locations whenever FantaSy moves out).
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Otolia
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
France5805 Posts
August 24 2013 11:00 GMT
#4
No. Protoss players should all suffer miserable losses. It's even a joke that the only way to win against a Protoss early game is to pull SCVs.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
August 24 2013 11:11 GMT
#5
On August 24 2013 20:00 Otolia wrote:
No. Protoss players should all suffer miserable losses. It's even a joke that the only way to win against a Protoss early game is to pull SCVs.


Don't hate on us because Blizzard refuses to notice that this matchup is extraordinarily imbalanced. I have no idea why Blizzard has chosen to turn a blind eye to this matchup when it has arguably all the same problems as classic PvZ.

That being said, terran doesn't HAVE to pull SCVs. It's just ungodly powerful and nearly impossible to stop if you do.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-24 15:43:49
August 24 2013 14:01 GMT
#6
And might I point out G4 and G5 of First vs. aLive, where First did THE SAME THING over and over again. Protoss players: look to this, this is how you stay alive against maxed out terran pushes.

EDIT: you can even see that First uses THE SAME positioning I outlined in my graphic on Akilon
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10h 3m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft548
SteadfastSC 174
SortOf 124
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 849
Movie 117
sorry 103
yabsab 52
Sacsri 24
ZergMaN 19
Noble 17
League of Legends
JimRising 643
C9.Mang0338
Other Games
summit1g11425
XaKoH 218
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick616
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1570
Upcoming Events
StarCraft2.fi
10h 3m
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
17h 3m
The PondCast
1d 3h
WardiTV 2025
1d 5h
StarCraft2.fi
1d 10h
WardiTV 2025
2 days
StarCraft2.fi
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
IPSL
3 days
Sziky vs JDConan
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
[ Show More ]
WardiTV 2025
4 days
IPSL
4 days
Tarson vs DragOn
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.