• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:04
CEST 17:04
KST 00:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27
Community News
Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey. Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Best crypto recovery experts in the world Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 33043 users

SC2 Notes: Hellbat Nerf a Mistake

Blogs > SC2John
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-17 06:50:27
August 17 2013 06:50 GMT
#1
Been thinking about the hellbat recently and how much Blizzard screwed up by nerfing it. During the early parts of HotS, I offraced as terran playing exclusively mech. And while it was slow going, I found that hellbat drops were a really beautiful way to open into mech because it allowed you to be 1) mobile, and 2) to be create a beautiful setup for mech. But it also transitioned well into bio, which was neat...sort of like how hellion/banshee works.

Anyways, for those unfamiliar with the hellbat drop, it goes pretty much like this:
+ Show Spoiler +

Here's the BO!

10 depot
12 rax
14 refinery (rallied worker)
16 depot
@100% rax -> 3 marines
Factory @100gas (18/27, 3:30, OC finishes)
20 depot
20 2nd gas
21 reactor
@100% factory -> 1 hellion
26 starport (@100% factory)
@100% reactor -> 4 more marines
29 armory
29 depot
@100% starport -> viking (5:35)
35 depot
Switch factory & rax
@100% armory -> 2 hellbats/1 medivac (6:20)
Constant hellbat/medivac/depot production
First drop arrives at 7:30-7:50
CC after 2nd drop (~8:20)


To transition to mech:
Start +1 armor, keep dropping
Get natural geysers
When possible, add 2 factories + 2nd armory
Start +1/+2 and constant hellbat/tank production
Raven optional

To transition to bio:
Build ebay (if you didn't earlier), start +1 attack
Add 2 rax, techlab add-ons
Research stim/CS at the same time
Tanks/mines optional until 3rd base



Some notes:

1) The first 3 marines can hold off the initial reaper as long as you place them in an area where they're likely to intercept it. The followup hellion will help deal with any followup reaper shenanigans.
2) The hellion is included in this build mainly as a scouting mechanism (arrives ~5:45). I don't scout with this build and instead just rely on the read I get with my hellion scout. I don't think it's bad to suicide the hellion for information if he has marines on his natural ramp.
3) The viking out of the starport will help deal with drops. I generally just rally it in the airspace outside my main and keep my marines halfway between the ramp and my mineral line.
4) Keep a scan saved ~6:30 in case of cloaked banshee/mine drops. If you get a read on cloaked banshee or a mine drop, just build an emergency ebay and a turret in your mineral line, delaying your hellbat drops a bit.
5) If you get a read on your opponent doing hellbat drops too, add a bunker in the mineral line and do your own hellbat drops.
6) CC placement depends on what you scout. If your opponent has gone for an early expand, place your CC on the low ground and tear him apart with the hellbat drops. If they are defensive and going for some kind of tech play, place it on the high ground until you have held off the aggression.

REPLAY: http://drop.sc/346751 (with some macro slips at the end, whatever)

There's also another version of this with reactor starport + reactor factory. Drops hit a little bit later, but hit much much much harder.


With this particular pattern, mech began to resemble its BW counterpart (especially in TvT) with hellbat/tank/viking armies with ~5 medivacs for dropping as well as for defending drops. During this era, TvT was the coolest it's ever looked, in my opinion, once we got over the fact that hellbat drops were difficult to counter. We started having matches that looked like this (Mvp vs. INnoVation, WCS S1 Finals): http://www.twitch.tv/m/17807

In the end, we saw that most players were adapting to hellbat drops and finding ways to circumvent it with clever timings such as:
.
In this series, we saw LucifroN hard counter hellbat drops with his own thor drops/thor rushes as well as seeing ForGG come up with a clever mass hellion/viking strategy that would just outright destroy a hellbat player with DPS. Even in Mvp vs. INnoVation, we saw ways to deal with hellbat drops using only marine/tank; in G2 on Akilon Wastes, INnoVation just hits a marine/hellion timing JUST BEFORE hellbats get out, dealing severe, game-winning damage. INnoVation also trademarked a defense of a bunker in each mineral line + a tank to be completely safe against any kind of drops. Long story short, it was possible to defend hellbat drops and players came up with new and exciting strategies.

In other matchups, hellbats were feeling overpowered for a time as well. In particular, a lot of protoss players were having difficulties holding hellbat drops into marauder/hellbat (again, a new and exciting strategy). However, we saw games where protoss players were starting to get a good hold on dealing with these strategies by going forge/robo and adding early cannons in the mineral lines (ex: First vs. FantaSy, best defense against hellbat/widow mine drops ever). Even zerg players were figuring out these drops, and some players like Life were still just using ling/queen to deflect them. It was difficult to control properly, yes, but definitely possible, as shown by many pros, to deflect these drops with ease. So was it hellbat drops that were really overpowered?

There are, perhaps, some rather odd displays of hellbat usage that can be pointed out as overpowered, for instance: Mvp's marauder/hellbat all-in vs. Stephano:
)

or Polt's rather odd triple reactor factory hellbat/marauder all-in:
).

Looking at these games, perhaps the idea is simply that hellbats are too strong right out of the box, for only 100 minerals.

So let's look at the situation AFTER the hellbat nerf. Perhaps the best examples of modern TvT are:
Maru vs. INnoVation: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2661528 and

Polt vs. Taeja:


You'll notice a huge lack of hellbats and mech in general. Why? Because, as it's always been in the past, mech is just bad in comparison to marine/tank now that you can't use hellbats to control the early game. In particular, the most common openings in TvT now seem to be marine/widow mine, marine/hellion pokes, or mine drops into banshees. And to me, this is a bit of a stale experience, simply an extension of WoL + widow mines. I mean, I think these games are incredible and really top notch, but to be honest, I'm rather tired of marine/tank and I was VERY excited to see TvT start to resemble BW TvT. And to be honest, I see no problem with players being forced into playing mech in TvT; this was the case in BW, and if anything, it's a welcome break from being forced into bio every game. If we look at other matchups, hellbat drops have also disappeared (because they're just not good enough anymore and most people have learned how to deal with them), and it seems that most terrans are either 1) proxying rax/fact/starport, 2) widow mine drops, or 3) heavy economic openers, but mostly heavy economic openers. TvP now is almost exclusively marine/mine drops or CC first. TvZ is starting to look dominated by 3CC biomine (might I add, no banshees). In a lot of ways, it feels like we're headed back into the later stages of WoL with how terran players are forced to play.

All of this basically goes to say: hellbat drops were a good thing for the game primarily because they were a completely different opening that basically revolutionized the meta. It brought other cool strategies into style as well as making mech viable for a short time. During this time, we saw several awesome strategies emerge and started to see a completely new game; however, since then we've fallen back to a lot of the stale, WoL-esque openings.

There is, perhaps, a question of whether or not the hellbat was too strong in a broad sense, and I think the answer is: probably. However, I know for certain that they WAY they nerfed the hellbat was overall bad for the game, and is forcing us into a WoL regression. This is perhaps the first huge mistake Blizzard has made in HotS, and ironically, it's the first thing to deviate from their "buff everything" policy. I don't know how others feel, but IMO the hellbat nerf was a pretty big deal and really should have been studied and played with a little more (and perhaps have waited for a month or two more).

Sidenote: Now that Blizzard is looking to "buff mech" by combining air and ground weapons, perhaps they need to look where the problem with mech originated.


_

**
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Kommatiazo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States579 Posts
August 17 2013 07:08 GMT
#2
I wasn't prepared to agree with you. But I do now. Successful argument, and might I say a very good write up of your point.

Delaying the patch would have been a great thing IMO. Like you said, many pros were about to or already beginning to figure out new timings and work arounds to the hell bat problem. I still think that a nerf was in order, or possibly some buffs to even everything out, but TIME is really what was needed in either case. The WoL regression is a scary thing IMO and your argument made me realize that the place that the strong hellbats would have taken us may not have been so bad in comparison, or even at all, and may have even turned into something really cool.
"You must enemy don't know, and very good micro" - Bosstoss #Wet4Ret
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12355 Posts
August 17 2013 07:11 GMT
#3
I am sure there are many more games where they rely solely on who has more hellbats or who does better hellbat drops in TvT.
in fact, hellbat drops set up beautifully into any kind of follow up because how much map control and defense needed to block the drop.
if anything, hellbats limit the amount of opening terran can do in TvT
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
August 17 2013 07:21 GMT
#4
The reason hellbats transitioned so well into mech was largely because of how ridiculously cost effective they were. They could transition into just about anything and there were a ton of mirror builds going on that made the matchup start to look like a two-way hellbat/scv micro tourney. It basically killed early-mid game TvT. Your choices of opening during the hbpm era was basically hellbat drop, anti-hellbat drop or cheese before hellbat drop. It was a great nerf imo. Hellbats had turned my favourite mirror into one of the worst mu's in the game.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
STChobo
Profile Joined January 2013
12 Posts
August 17 2013 08:04 GMT
#5
a noob who can t play bio try to defend a fucking unit good job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

User was temp banned for this post.
Entirety
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
1423 Posts
August 17 2013 08:10 GMT
#6
On August 17 2013 16:21 Scarecrow wrote:
The reason hellbats transitioned so well into mech was largely because of how ridiculously cost effective they were. They could transition into just about anything and there were a ton of mirror builds going on that made the matchup start to look like a two-way hellbat/scv micro tourney. It basically killed early-mid game TvT. Your choices of opening during the hbpm era was basically hellbat drop, anti-hellbat drop or cheese before hellbat drop. It was a great nerf imo. Hellbats had turned my favourite mirror into one of the worst mu's in the game.


The nerf was a mistake as in "the Hellbat needed a fix but it could have been handled better"

Still not as bad as the Snipe nerf... that DEFINITELY could have been handled better, hell it could have made TvZ both balanced and exciting for the last few months of WoL if Snipe was nerfed while still letting it be viable!
IMMvp (정종현) | Fan Club: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211431
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-17 08:24:13
August 17 2013 08:21 GMT
#7
On August 17 2013 16:11 ETisME wrote:
I am sure there are many more games where they rely solely on who has more hellbats or who does better hellbat drops in TvT.
in fact, hellbat drops set up beautifully into any kind of follow up because how much map control and defense needed to block the drop.
if anything, hellbats limit the amount of opening terran can do in TvT


You're missing the point, though. Players WERE starting to learn how to deflect hellbat drops; ForGG was 45-3 at one point with his trademark hellion/viking style. Hellbat drops were popular, but not unstoppable. For this reason, we definitely did see a lot of hellbat vs. hellbat games (which is a little unfortunate), but we also got to see a wealth of amazing new openings come out of people trying to counter the hellbats. Additionally, I see no reason to criticize hellbat drops for map control as they WERE a map control play, much like hellion/banshee. Invariably, we saw players who would, if they could defend the hellbat drops well, pull ahead in terms of economy and tech. Examples include pretty much every ForGG game and every later INnoVation game, as well as other players such as First and Life.

Refer below to limiting terran openings.

On August 17 2013 16:21 Scarecrow wrote:
The reason hellbats transitioned so well into mech was largely because of how ridiculously cost effective they were. They could transition into just about anything and there were a ton of mirror builds going on that made the matchup start to look like a two-way hellbat/scv micro tourney. It basically killed early-mid game TvT. Your choices of opening during the hbpm era was basically hellbat drop, anti-hellbat drop or cheese before hellbat drop. It was a great nerf imo. Hellbats had turned my favourite mirror into one of the worst mu's in the game.


I agree that they may have been too cost-effective, but I don't think it was the hellbat drops necessarily that were the problem. Again, the mirror aspect of it was that seemed very powerful and was very popular, but that doesn't mean that it was the ONLY choice, and I've provided many examples of this.

For instance, in the Mvp vs. INnoVation series, Mvp does a marine/mine drop into cloaked banshee in G4. In G2, INnoVation does a fairly non-cheesy hellion/marine drop @7:00. ForGG created a hardcore counter-build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412904. INnoVation has shown time and time again that he can defend using only marine/tank, using BUNKERS instead of TURRETS (biggest mistake most people were making). Basically, the only limiting factor was that you couldn't go fast cloaked banshees or get away with certain marine/mine defenses, but everything else that's possible now was pretty much possible then with the right considerations. Again, I believe hellbat drops needed another month or two to fully mature. At the time, I didn't realize it and thought the BFH nerf was good, but now that it's happened, I can see the damage it's done.

On August 17 2013 17:10 Entirety wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 16:21 Scarecrow wrote:
The reason hellbats transitioned so well into mech was largely because of how ridiculously cost effective they were. They could transition into just about anything and there were a ton of mirror builds going on that made the matchup start to look like a two-way hellbat/scv micro tourney. It basically killed early-mid game TvT. Your choices of opening during the hbpm era was basically hellbat drop, anti-hellbat drop or cheese before hellbat drop. It was a great nerf imo. Hellbats had turned my favourite mirror into one of the worst mu's in the game.


The nerf was a mistake as in "the Hellbat needed a fix but it could have been handled better"

Still not as bad as the Snipe nerf... that DEFINITELY could have been handled better, hell it could have made TvZ both balanced and exciting for the last few months of WoL if Snipe was nerfed while still letting it be viable!


And omg, can I just say I agree wholly with you on that. Ever since the snipe nerf, I've defended my opinion that Blizzard broke the game then. It was a little crazy how good ghosts were back then, but when they nerfed snipe, they killed several strategies all across the board in several matchups. Much like nerfing the hellbat did. It wasn't just a "lessoning of power", it was a complete overhaul of the unit's utility and purpose :/
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Entirety
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
1423 Posts
August 17 2013 09:10 GMT
#8
Not only that, but when you see how terrifying lategame zerg was in WoL, the change looks premature in retrospect. In fact, Terrans NEEDED something to survive the Ultra/Brood tech switches... besides the fact that Brood Lord/Infestor was ridiculously hard to combat... I think Snipe was perfect for dealing with that!

Hell, PvZ was beginning to look "okay" with the use of Carriers... imagine this type of balance patch

- Snipe buff
- Carrier buff (enough to beat Brood Lords)

Imagine how the last months of WoL would have played out... It would have real potential!
IMMvp (정종현) | Fan Club: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211431
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12355 Posts
August 17 2013 09:46 GMT
#9
I can't understand you guys at all. Snipe wasn't just a bit crazy, it was completely broken. There was no way a zerg can break through a split map situation. Tech switch whatnot doesn't do anything when terran sitting behind with PFs, tanks and ghosts with bios. I will never forget that game between july zerg against Mvp because even if I am a Mvp fan, that game just looked damn stupid.

The mid game was in advantage for Terran at that time, hellions contain was extremely powerful, it lets terran grab a 3rd extremely safely with hellion banshee opening while zerg struggles to get a third up because of hellion runbys and banshee support.
The game was full of roach ling baneling all in, similar to what it is nowadays, you can see that in MMA vs DRG final, I think it was 3 or 4 games were won by that all in.
It wasn't until queen got range buff then zerg starts to have an "advantage" in mid game while in fact, it was still mainly 3 base vs 3 base and infestors were the only reason why zerg has a huge power over terran.

Snipe is actually buffed in TvP right now, it was pure EMP vs HT before.
As for why ghost disappeared in TvZ, it's because zerg gets better at dealing with cloak ghosts and ghosts are just too expensive to invest in.

learning how to deal with hellbat drop opening doesn't mean the strategy was any more balanced than it should be.
hellbat drops completely dominates other openings except those that are specific designed to deny hellbat drops, which is problematic because it becomes a complete poker style game play.
Those hellbat drops specific counter build are much inferior to standard openings.
The risk and reward for hellbat drops were way too uneven to call it a good strategy.
The forgg thingee was HUGELY over excited about, he was playing against EU terrans, hardly a lot of the better terrans in that record.

Not to mention if both players do hellbat drops, it just looks silly.

I don't mind it too too much in other matchups, it's TvT that it has ruined.
Even now we don't have any games that are on par with Flash vs Ryung game, with flanks over flanks over flanks and insane action everywhere.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
S1eth
Profile Joined November 2011
Austria221 Posts
August 17 2013 10:57 GMT
#10
[QUOTE]On August 17 2013 18:46 ETisME wrote:
I can't understand you guys at all. Snipe wasn't just a bit crazy, it was completely broken./QUOTE]

The community suggestion was to change snipe from 45 damage everything, to 45 vs non-massive and whatever it takes (let's say 25) vs. massive.

What Blizzard did is shoehorn Snipe into a anti caster role with miserable damage against anything else, often worse than normal attack DPS.
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-17 11:05:12
August 17 2013 11:02 GMT
#11
Nice write-up. At the time I thought the HB nerf was premature, but that was because it was more in line with my belief that Blizzard should be hands off as far as possible once the game is out of beta and released. That said, I despise the unit. To me, it is emblematic of the worst aspects of SC2 design (i.e. a hard counter unit that is also tanky and does a lot of damage). It's one drawback was meant to be its lack of range (and its slowness - but even then it is fast enough to be a part of unstimmed bio compositions) but that was swiftly circumvented by players' use of boosted medivacs. (I wonder if this was foreseen by the design team? They seem to have a history of not realising that players will get up to all kinds of unanticipated cool stuff.)

I disagree with regard to TvT as I thought that match-up was silly and even if players were figuring out a response to it, the whole match-up was dominated by one unit and how to respond to it. As for BW TvT I never watched it, and as I really don't give a shit about BW, just saying that the match-up resembled BW TvT means nothing to me. Secondly, if the HB nerf meant an end to early experimentation of TvP mech then I don't see the problem with this. I don't think I've seen a single SC2 TvP mech game which was not factory based turtle-esque play rather than the classic positional based mech style. Therefore, to me this is good riddance. If, however, real mech based play was arising from HB play in TvP then maybe I'm wrong about that.

Finally, I think the HB will return. It's too much of a strong unit to completely go missing. It's just that when Bliizzard brings out the nerf hammer units tend to get shelved as players return to more familiar and easier strategies (WOL-esque as you say). But then, over time, they return to these units, experiment and begin to incorporate them into their play and into new strategies. I think the same will occur with the Hellbat. it's just that it may be a little while before we see it return.
KT best KT ~ 2014
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
August 17 2013 11:07 GMT
#12
Maybe it´s just the usual patch dynamic:

1.) X gets abused to no end and is nerfed
2.) X does not get used anymore because it works differently
3.) X gets figured out again, when people start using it more

Hellbats are still very cost efficient (esp. for harass), when they get the blueflame upgrade, so I expect that people will come up with builds that include it later in the game.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-17 11:55:53
August 17 2013 11:55 GMT
#13
On August 17 2013 19:57 S1eth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 18:46 ETisME wrote:
I can't understand you guys at all. Snipe wasn't just a bit crazy, it was completely broken.


The community suggestion was to change snipe from 45 damage everything, to 45 vs non-massive and whatever it takes (let's say 25) vs. massive.

What Blizzard did is shoehorn Snipe into a anti caster role with miserable damage against anything else, often worse than normal attack DPS.


This is beautiful, exactly my thoughts on the matter.

On August 17 2013 20:07 Daswollvieh wrote:
Maybe it´s just the usual patch dynamic:

1.) X gets abused to no end and is nerfed
2.) X does not get used anymore because it works differently
3.) X gets figured out again, when people start using it more

Hellbats are still very cost efficient (esp. for harass), when they get the blueflame upgrade, so I expect that people will come up with builds that include it later in the game.


Well, perhaps. The thing is, what I'm arguing here is not that hellbats are no longer good, but rather because of the nerf, Blizzard destroyed a new and interesting way to open and thus killed a lot of interesting strategies INCLUDING MECH. It was a mistake in that regard.

In a way, it's a lot like the ghost nerf, which completely removed ghosts from lategame TvZ because vikings/marauders were just better; hellbats were completely removed from the early game because marine/mine drops and cloaked banshees are just better. And that's fine, but it's very WoL-esque...we're not moving forward.

On August 17 2013 20:02 aZealot wrote:
Nice write-up. At the time I thought the HB nerf was premature, but that was because it was more in line with my belief that Blizzard should be hands off as far as possible once the game is out of beta and released. That said, I despise the unit. To me, it is emblematic of the worst aspects of SC2 design (i.e. a hard counter unit that is also tanky and does a lot of damage). It's one drawback was meant to be its lack of range (and its slowness - but even then it is fast enough to be a part of unstimmed bio compositions) but that was swiftly circumvented by players' use of boosted medivacs. (I wonder if this was foreseen by the design team? They seem to have a history of not realising that players will get up to all kinds of unanticipated cool stuff.)

I disagree with regard to TvT as I thought that match-up was silly and even if players were figuring out a response to it, the whole match-up was dominated by one unit and how to respond to it. As for BW TvT I never watched it, and as I really don't give a shit about BW, just saying that the match-up resembled BW TvT means nothing to me. Secondly, if the HB nerf meant an end to early experimentation of TvP mech then I don't see the problem with this. I don't think I've seen a single SC2 TvP mech game which was not factory based turtle-esque play rather than the classic positional based mech style. Therefore, to me this is good riddance. If, however, real mech based play was arising from HB play in TvP then maybe I'm wrong about that.

Finally, I think the HB will return. It's too much of a strong unit to completely go missing. It's just that when Bliizzard brings out the nerf hammer units tend to get shelved as players return to more familiar and easier strategies (WOL-esque as you say). But then, over time, they return to these units, experiment and begin to incorporate them into their play and into new strategies. I think the same will occur with the Hellbat. it's just that it may be a little while before we see it return.


Aside from perhaps being too tanky, I think the hellbat drop mechanic is AWESOME, and I love that hellbats were so multi-purpose that they fit into any army composition. I personally love hellbats and hellbat drops. In my opinion, hellbat drops are much like (admittedly, less skillful) reaver drops; they're quite fun to pull off and it allows you that board control without having to leave your base exposed.

WATCH THISSSSS:


I honestly think that hellbat/tank/viking/medivac greatly resembles the goliath/tank/wraith/dropship armies in BW. It was exciting to see something so similar in SC2 for the first time. , I'm sad BW doesn't mean anything to you. I didn't get into SC until 2011 and I still love BW.

Closing statement: Again, I don't think the problem is with the hellbat itself now. The hellbat is still strong, of course, and still works well with mech. However, forcing players to have a techlab and spend money on blue flame completely destroys the place that they had before and the advancement of the meta. As it is, with the hellbat nerf, we've had a regression and are now playing "slightly more balanced WoL".
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
August 17 2013 12:06 GMT
#14
On August 17 2013 20:55 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 20:07 Daswollvieh wrote:
Maybe it´s just the usual patch dynamic:

1.) X gets abused to no end and is nerfed
2.) X does not get used anymore because it works differently
3.) X gets figured out again, when people start using it more

Hellbats are still very cost efficient (esp. for harass), when they get the blueflame upgrade, so I expect that people will come up with builds that include it later in the game.


Well, perhaps. The thing is, what I'm arguing here is not that hellbats are no longer good, but rather because of the nerf, Blizzard destroyed a new and interesting way to open and thus killed a lot of interesting strategies INCLUDING MECH. It was a mistake in that regard.


Well, most people agreed that it was an obnoxious opener that made a lot of strategies impossible/irrelevant, because the risk-reward was way too good for Hellbat drops. It made the game (esp. in TvT) revolve around the execution and defense of one strategy. I still think it would be too good as an opener and while it´s true that it made transitions to various styles possible, which otherwise wouldn´t be, that´s more a sign that certain styles (i.e. mech) were too weak in general, so they required an imba opener.

In a way, it's a lot like the ghost nerf, which completely removed ghosts from lategame TvZ because vikings/marauders were just better; hellbats were completely removed from the early game because marine/mine drops and cloaked banshees are just better. And that's fine, but it's very WoL-esque...we're not moving forward.


I disagree. The ghost nerf permanently changed the snipe ability, while the hellbat nerf simply delays their effectiveness. You cannot upgrade ghosts to be as good as they were pre-nerf. Of course delays are significant when a unit gets pushed to a stage of the game where it´s not relevant anymore. I just don´t think that´s the case with hellbats.
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-17 13:19:49
August 17 2013 13:04 GMT
#15
On August 17 2013 17:10 Entirety wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 16:21 Scarecrow wrote:
The reason hellbats transitioned so well into mech was largely because of how ridiculously cost effective they were. They could transition into just about anything and there were a ton of mirror builds going on that made the matchup start to look like a two-way hellbat/scv micro tourney. It basically killed early-mid game TvT. Your choices of opening during the hbpm era was basically hellbat drop, anti-hellbat drop or cheese before hellbat drop. It was a great nerf imo. Hellbats had turned my favourite mirror into one of the worst mu's in the game.


The nerf was a mistake as in "the Hellbat needed a fix but it could have been handled better"

Still not as bad as the Snipe nerf... that DEFINITELY could have been handled better, hell it could have made TvZ both balanced and exciting for the last few months of WoL if Snipe was nerfed while still letting it be viable!


Snipe deserved to be nerfed. It's nonsensical to claim that making TvZ lategame about accumulating energy on mass ghosts was a fair response to broodlord/infestor (and mass ghosts + Snipe arguably made ultralisk transitions useless too). Both were boring, tedious strategies that require almost no coherent thought to execute. Balancing the spell itself would've been a pain in the ass as 45 damage would still make ghosts a strong counter to all lair tech units.

The main mistake Blizzard makes in these decisions is assuming the unit itself is the cause of the problem instead of looking at the game as a whole. If they did that they would realize that these problems are systemic issues stemming from design flaws.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
August 17 2013 13:41 GMT
#16
As a terran amateur/semipro/best terran southern hemisphere I can confidently state that the hellbat nerf, at least in it's aims of changing up TvT openers, was completely warranted. Hellbat drops were bullshit. Hit too early for too much and gave the hellbat drop player immunity to most pushes early (at least marine/tank sort of thing. Mass hellion viking was good, and the thor drop was a fancy gimmick that no one else picked up since it's designed to counter a very specific player doing a specific build)

Also, Polt never plays mech even pre patch. Referring to his tvt as an example of no mech post hellbat nerf is a bit misleading.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19133 Posts
August 17 2013 13:42 GMT
#17
On August 17 2013 22:04 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 17:10 Entirety wrote:
On August 17 2013 16:21 Scarecrow wrote:
The reason hellbats transitioned so well into mech was largely because of how ridiculously cost effective they were. They could transition into just about anything and there were a ton of mirror builds going on that made the matchup start to look like a two-way hellbat/scv micro tourney. It basically killed early-mid game TvT. Your choices of opening during the hbpm era was basically hellbat drop, anti-hellbat drop or cheese before hellbat drop. It was a great nerf imo. Hellbats had turned my favourite mirror into one of the worst mu's in the game.


The nerf was a mistake as in "the Hellbat needed a fix but it could have been handled better"

Still not as bad as the Snipe nerf... that DEFINITELY could have been handled better, hell it could have made TvZ both balanced and exciting for the last few months of WoL if Snipe was nerfed while still letting it be viable!


The main mistake Blizzard makes in these decisions is assuming the unit itself is the cause of the problem instead of looking at the game as a whole. If they did that they would realize that these problems are systemic issues stemming from design flaws.

Finally, someone with a functioning brain. <3
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Entirety
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
1423 Posts
August 17 2013 19:07 GMT
#18
Wow, I did not know Snipe was so controversial!

The fact is that Snipe had real potential. Imagine someone with amazing mechanics sniping down all banelings, making Tankless Mineless TvZ possible (Ghost/MMM). Or imagine leaving behind two ghosts in every mineral mine as anti-muta defense. Imagine ghosts being built instead of tanks when defending a roach bane ling all-in... you just have to control properly. Imagine ghost drops where Snipe is used to kill workers.

All that tactical depth? Gone completely. Ghosts are now utterly useless except for casters. It was such a cool unit and now it's just another hard counter like the immortal.

Now I am sure Snipe was too powerful, but there must be a better way which allows ghosts to be effective but not broken... for example, what if Snipe had a cooldown but bigger damage (like an actual sniper rifle)?

How can you know it was impossible to balance without even trying? In my opinion, Blizzard chose a lazy solution.
IMMvp (정종현) | Fan Club: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211431
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-17 20:16:12
August 17 2013 19:46 GMT
#19
On August 17 2013 20:55 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 19:57 S1eth wrote:
On August 17 2013 18:46 ETisME wrote:
I can't understand you guys at all. Snipe wasn't just a bit crazy, it was completely broken.


The community suggestion was to change snipe from 45 damage everything, to 45 vs non-massive and whatever it takes (let's say 25) vs. massive.

What Blizzard did is shoehorn Snipe into a anti caster role with miserable damage against anything else, often worse than normal attack DPS.


This is beautiful, exactly my thoughts on the matter.

Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 20:07 Daswollvieh wrote:
Maybe it´s just the usual patch dynamic:

1.) X gets abused to no end and is nerfed
2.) X does not get used anymore because it works differently
3.) X gets figured out again, when people start using it more

Hellbats are still very cost efficient (esp. for harass), when they get the blueflame upgrade, so I expect that people will come up with builds that include it later in the game.


Well, perhaps. The thing is, what I'm arguing here is not that hellbats are no longer good, but rather because of the nerf, Blizzard destroyed a new and interesting way to open and thus killed a lot of interesting strategies INCLUDING MECH. It was a mistake in that regard.

In a way, it's a lot like the ghost nerf, which completely removed ghosts from lategame TvZ because vikings/marauders were just better; hellbats were completely removed from the early game because marine/mine drops and cloaked banshees are just better. And that's fine, but it's very WoL-esque...we're not moving forward.

Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 20:02 aZealot wrote:
Nice write-up. At the time I thought the HB nerf was premature, but that was because it was more in line with my belief that Blizzard should be hands off as far as possible once the game is out of beta and released. That said, I despise the unit. To me, it is emblematic of the worst aspects of SC2 design (i.e. a hard counter unit that is also tanky and does a lot of damage). It's one drawback was meant to be its lack of range (and its slowness - but even then it is fast enough to be a part of unstimmed bio compositions) but that was swiftly circumvented by players' use of boosted medivacs. (I wonder if this was foreseen by the design team? They seem to have a history of not realising that players will get up to all kinds of unanticipated cool stuff.)

I disagree with regard to TvT as I thought that match-up was silly and even if players were figuring out a response to it, the whole match-up was dominated by one unit and how to respond to it. As for BW TvT I never watched it, and as I really don't give a shit about BW, just saying that the match-up resembled BW TvT means nothing to me. Secondly, if the HB nerf meant an end to early experimentation of TvP mech then I don't see the problem with this. I don't think I've seen a single SC2 TvP mech game which was not factory based turtle-esque play rather than the classic positional based mech style. Therefore, to me this is good riddance. If, however, real mech based play was arising from HB play in TvP then maybe I'm wrong about that.

Finally, I think the HB will return. It's too much of a strong unit to completely go missing. It's just that when Bliizzard brings out the nerf hammer units tend to get shelved as players return to more familiar and easier strategies (WOL-esque as you say). But then, over time, they return to these units, experiment and begin to incorporate them into their play and into new strategies. I think the same will occur with the Hellbat. it's just that it may be a little while before we see it return.


Aside from perhaps being too tanky, I think the hellbat drop mechanic is AWESOME, and I love that hellbats were so multi-purpose that they fit into any army composition. I personally love hellbats and hellbat drops. In my opinion, hellbat drops are much like (admittedly, less skillful) reaver drops; they're quite fun to pull off and it allows you that board control without having to leave your base exposed.

WATCH THISSSSS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzf4wYtftV8

I honestly think that hellbat/tank/viking/medivac greatly resembles the goliath/tank/wraith/dropship armies in BW. It was exciting to see something so similar in SC2 for the first time. , I'm sad BW doesn't mean anything to you. I didn't get into SC until 2011 and I still love BW.

Closing statement: Again, I don't think the problem is with the hellbat itself now. The hellbat is still strong, of course, and still works well with mech. However, forcing players to have a techlab and spend money on blue flame completely destroys the place that they had before and the advancement of the meta. As it is, with the hellbat nerf, we've had a regression and are now playing "slightly more balanced WoL".


Well, I've always enjoyed BW PvT (what little of it I have watched). I really liked seeing Speedlots and Goons moving around the map, Protoss armies recalling in and out, HTs dropping storms, reaver drops, stasis fields etc. But, I am tired by endless comparisons to Broodwar. That's what I meant by not giving a shit about BW. Just because something was good in BW does not necessarily mean that it is good, or going to be good, in SC2. I rarely watch any non Protoss mirror but WOL TvT was something, when I did watch, that I always enjoyed. The HB based HOTS TvT style that was developing seemed, as I said, just silly. So, comparing it to BW-esque TvT was not a reason for me to like it.

Give it time. I think you will see the HB return as the game matures further. It might be an even better unit for it.
KT best KT ~ 2014
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-17 21:06:19
August 17 2013 20:01 GMT
#20
On August 17 2013 22:42 Nyovne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2013 22:04 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On August 17 2013 17:10 Entirety wrote:
On August 17 2013 16:21 Scarecrow wrote:
The reason hellbats transitioned so well into mech was largely because of how ridiculously cost effective they were. They could transition into just about anything and there were a ton of mirror builds going on that made the matchup start to look like a two-way hellbat/scv micro tourney. It basically killed early-mid game TvT. Your choices of opening during the hbpm era was basically hellbat drop, anti-hellbat drop or cheese before hellbat drop. It was a great nerf imo. Hellbats had turned my favourite mirror into one of the worst mu's in the game.


The nerf was a mistake as in "the Hellbat needed a fix but it could have been handled better"

Still not as bad as the Snipe nerf... that DEFINITELY could have been handled better, hell it could have made TvZ both balanced and exciting for the last few months of WoL if Snipe was nerfed while still letting it be viable!


The main mistake Blizzard makes in these decisions is assuming the unit itself is the cause of the problem instead of looking at the game as a whole. If they did that they would realize that these problems are systemic issues stemming from design flaws.

Finally, someone with a functioning brain. <3


Hmm, yes. That is a good insight. But I wonder if we sometimes don't overstate the design flaws (too much production too fast; too many easily available resources; excessively hard counters - units and abilities - that limit micro, neuter strategies and negate units from a match-up) of SC2? For all its flaws it has remained a good and viable game which is rewarding to play and spectate. I think it could have been even better if Blizzard had had their current balance policy in WOL. The development team seemed to misunderstand, at that time, that a RTS like SC2 (with sufficient depth and complexity) will develop in ways unanticipated by the design team. And that this is the beauty of the game and it should be allowed to do so. Thankfully, they seem to understand this now (at least for the most part) and are more willing to let things play out.

I think this is why I find the endless comparisons to BW both corrosive and exhausting. BW may or may not be the "perfect" RTS (I think it tends to be put on a pedestal a bit much for my liking - especially, to my mind, by people who did not play it and probably never watched it). But, in trying to make SC2 if not another BW at least another "perfect" RTS, I think you run the risk of destroying the game (and the E-Sport) altogether. In this sense, and to coin a well used phrase, I see the constant urge to "perfect" SC2 by correcting design flaws as being the enemy of the good enough.
KT best KT ~ 2014
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 56m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .323
trigger 27
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 32029
Calm 9506
Rain 6299
Horang2 2223
EffOrt 1012
Stork 622
PianO 537
BeSt 258
sSak 96
Hyun 86
[ Show more ]
Shinee 62
Last 61
Movie 36
Aegong 27
Terrorterran 24
ToSsGirL 24
Killer 21
IntoTheRainbow 13
Noble 10
Hm[arnc] 8
ivOry 6
zelot 6
SilentControl 6
Zeus 0
Dota 2
Gorgc4537
qojqva2548
XcaliburYe320
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Dendi2857
Counter-Strike
fl0m2613
Foxcn666
rGuardiaN5
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King182
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor627
Other Games
singsing2103
B2W.Neo1486
crisheroes600
C9.Mang0505
Beastyqt434
Happy427
Fuzer 210
RotterdaM114
KnowMe113
Rex42
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream15202
Other Games
EGCTV101
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 84
• maralekos14
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Rasowy 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3097
• WagamamaTV488
League of Legends
• Jankos3583
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Qualifier
56m
BSL: ProLeague
2h 56m
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
Replay Cast
8h 56m
Wardi Open
19h 56m
Replay Cast
1d 8h
Replay Cast
1d 18h
RSL Revival
1d 18h
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
SC Evo League
5 days
Circuito Brasileiro de…
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-11
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.