|
Preface : This isn't a story about who is right or who is wrong. This is merely a series of events and how they came together to create "AxiomHate 2013 : The ATC Edition". Also, I am not a formatting sorcerer or a spectacular wordsmith, so please have mercy.
It all began one day in February....
+ Show Spoiler +Who : Christopher Mönig (TakeTV)
When : Feb. 24th, 2013
Where : Email
my name is Christopher and I´m the contentmanager of TaKeTV.
Im not sure if this is the right adress to contact 'Axiom', but I only
found your business card in our office.
TaKeTV will start a european Teamleague.
The team league will start at around ~15. march(not fix yet!) and
culminate in fantastic finals at the TakeTV studio. All in all, 8 teams
will be fighting on 14 match days for another $20,000 prize money. Each
team consists of at least 4 players. The “all-kill” format will be played
in a best-of-9 and finished by a special ace player. Four teams will get a
direct invitation, while the other four participating teams will be
determined in two separate qualification tournaments.
If Axiom is interessted I would love to get a response -
Sincerely,
Christopher Mönig
Content Manager of TaKeTV
Remember that at this time, we were learning about IPL6 and it's cancellation. We accepted the invitation as we were pretty confident in our team league potential, having just assembled our GSTL team. We were pretty hurt by Alicia having qualified for a free trip to IPL6 and we had already planned to send two other players to the open bracket. I felt it was a pretty nice honor to be one of the invited teams to the ATC, considering that other teams had to qualify in order to participate. We accepted the invitation and awaited more information.
+ Show Spoiler +Who : Christopher Mönig (TakeTV) to Me When : Mar. 5th, 2013 Where : Email Hi Genna, I totally imagine how much time it takes to manage such a project. Nice to see such a response - we would love to see more of your nice team in the europe scene and as I said, i hope we could handle your gsl schedule and of course the time zones. This is the (un)offical news to the league: http://taketv.net/news/acerteamstorycup-powered-by-intel-22-02-13-8881regards, Christopher
I reviewed the unofficial news post. Everything seemed to be about what you'd expect to see. I noticed the signups section and reviewed it, curious to see what other teams might have to do in order to qualify. That can be found here : http://bit.ly/13ZTo83 There was a rule section that those teams signing up had to agree to. I read that as well. The link to that can be found here : http://bit.ly/13ZTnky
+ Show Spoiler +Who : Christopher Mönig (TakeTV) to Me
When : Mar. 24th, 2013
Where : Email
Hej Genna,
I'm glad to welcome you to the Team Story Cup now!
Due to an additional team, we´ve got 9 Teams in the league.
The conclusion of this format will be, that every team got a "free week".
Axiom is "lucky" this week and can just watch what will happen!
The other matches will be:
Karton3 vs Millenium (Schedule Wednesday, March 27th at ~18:00 CET (1:00 PM EDT))
mouz vs Quantic (Schedule Wednesday, March 27th at ~20:30 CET (3:30 PM EDT))
Acer vs MVP (Schedule Saturday, March 30th at 17:00 CET (12:00 EDT))
TeamLiquid vs Winner of American Qualifier (Schedule Saturday, March 30th at ~19:30 CET (2:30 PM EDT))
Please confirm this email and if anything isn´t okay feel free to contact me.
You will get a full schedule and a Infosheet of the whole season as fast as possible!
Best Regards,
Christopher 'okko' Mönig
Having received so much consistent contact and information from Christopher, made me feel like they knew exactly what they were doing. I had watched HSC events previously and when you hear the name TakeTV, no ill feelings or thoughts come to mind at all. They had everything in good order on the surface from what I was to understand and were very helpful with scheduling in understanding our GSTL and WCS committments.
+ Show Spoiler +
Right, so we have all the information that we need. We have the schedule, the rulebook, the infosheet and the announcement that ATC have given us. We are all set and ready to play our matches. We were pretty excited about ATC. Seeing how Axiom would do without the Acer part of the equation in a different teamleague was going to be a fun element. John (TotalBiscuit) was pretty hyped about it and even offered to provide some of the English casting for free. Unfortunately it was not all sunshine and roses. Miya did retire in the middle of the season and the new WCS format really hurt scheduling for all of the teams involved. I really applaud TakeTV and the ATC staff for doing their best to handle scheduled matches after WCS was announced. I can't imagine producing a team league series under those conditions, so in my mind, they really stepped up to the plate. So between the last email shown above and the next communication shown below, there is quite the gap of time. During this time period the only communication shared between Axiom and ATC was about match scheduling times. I am leaving that out as to not bore anyone to tears.
+ Show Spoiler +Who : Olivia Wong (Axiom Assistant Manager) to Me
When : July 30th, 2013 @ 11am
Where : Skype
Olivia : "[Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:17 AM] Willy (TakeTV Staff): The important key facts: Date 17/18 of August Where: Germany, Krefeld Nearest Airport: Düsseldorf Costs: We will pay 1,500$ and the Hotel, Eating at the venue and will manage the whole transport from/to the airport (dusseldorf) We are sorry but we can´t provide more money for the Travelcost this Season (but this was announcent already in March when the league started) Hope this will help already."
Genna : So they will pay 1500$ for the entire team to fly there.... 1500$ for the whole team or per person?
Olivia : good question whole team....
Genna : Yeah... So on the Acer thing. I don't have any email that ever said anything about travel support not being provided. If you can ask them to forward that information as they supposedly "sent that back in March" that would be great. We were under the impression if we made it to the offline finals that travel and hotel would be paid for at their expense. If they sent that information to me at any point, I would assume they would have a copy of it in some sent folder somewhere. The emails I have are the initial invitation and the info sheet and nowhere on there does it say anything about that.
I searched for literally hours in my email to find any shred of this being mentioned to us directly. This information wasn't included in the invitation, the press release, the rules, the infosheet.... I couldn't find anything that had directly been sent to me. This is the part where some of you are going to blame me for not reading about it in some post on TL or Reddit or in a later ATC website post and that's fine. I run two companies and a family and I do the best that I can in all aspects of my personal and professional life. Sometimes my best isn't good enough and I'm willing to accept that. At this point, all I wanted... the one thing I wanted is one piece of proof that this information had been communicated to me directly by any member of the ATC/TakeTV staff. I felt horrible. Not only had I put my team through crazy scheduling acrobatics, but in the event this couldn't be resolved, I would have prevented other teams from claiming the spot that we had taken. Had I known from the beginning that travel was not covered, I could have planned months in advance to have the funds available.
+ Show Spoiler +Who : Willy (TakeTV Staff) to Olivia Wong (Axiom Assistant Manager) *later copy/pasted to me When : July 31st, 2013 @ 5am Where : Skype Willy : hey olivia are you around? Olivia : yes hello! Willy : sorry for my late response lastly Ok, I hope the travel cost didn´t hit you like a truck it´s a shame but we cant provide more  We try our heart out to get the trips fully paid for Season II Olivia : Yeah we're kind of surprised Were you able to find any past emails sent out stating that not all of the trip would be paid for by acer? Genna has been looking for an email like that but she has yet to find one Willy : Searched everything. I hate to say it, but I guess there is no Mail with this exact statement. I wrote a mail but Genna wasn´t looped in And in the News i Mailed to her wasn't that statement included. God damn. I was fully sure everybody knows, but I guess there was no mail. Just the News and the TL post and the discussion in the ATC Team management Skype conversaion plus I mail where I missed to loop genna in Im surry olivia I guess its my mistake then sorry Will Axiom attending? It´s at least: 1500$ travel cost + 2000$ prizemoney for the last spot (3500$)
At this point I had a bit of a meltdown. "A bit" might be an understatement. Of course I can understand if events do not have the sponsorship capable of supporting teams attending an offline portion of their event. I guess I assumed that if you are having an offline finals, your event could afford it, otherwise, why not have an online finals so that all teams could participate? I get that it's not as exciting as an offline finals, but the entire event has been online thus far. It was at this point that I considered that we might actually have to forfeit our participation in the ATC. We had spent a lot in unplanned expenses recently given that we had sent Alicia to ASUS ROG, Heart to MLG Anaheim and 6 WCS NA flights counting Season 1 and Season 2. With knowing that DreamHack Bucharest was an upcoming event that we already budgeted for, I just couldn't see how it would be financially possible to attend ATC as well. So we opened a dialogue between myself, Olivia and Willy from TakeTV.
+ Show Spoiler +Who : Olivia Wong (Axiom Assistant Manager), Willy (TakeTV Staff) & Me
When : July 31st, 2013 @ 7am
Where : Skype
Olivia: so given the circumstances Axiom was never fully informed of the change in travel expenses and participated in Acer Teamstory Cup with the impression expenses would be paid for the offline portion if we made it that far
Genna: We are not prepared to pay such overpriced airfare for our entire team to attend an event during peak season. When the top prize is not even enough to cover such expenses, it makes little sense for us to attend. Our fans expected to see us participate in this event and we will have to answer to them as to why we have to consider forfeiting our participation. If when we were asked about participating this was explained about travel not being comped, we would have declined immediately to have avoided all the hassle involved. So unless there is any alternative to the current offer of compensation I'm afraid we will have to decline and forfeit our position in ATC.
Willy : Well Genna, I´m sorry you never got this Information. I wrote a mail but unfortunatly I didn´t looped you in. But nevertheless this was no secret at all. The wrote a big News at the Acer Teamstory cup Page in March and also it was discussed by all of the managers sometimes in the ATC Team Management Skypegroup as well as in the TL forums. We are sorry you got no clue about this fact - this is for a portion our fault - but nothing we could change anymore. We tryed to get more by Acer due to exact this reason. it´s for full US/KR teams nearly nothing
Genna : It's not my job to trudge through TL forums in search of information that should have been already offered freely to me via direct communication upon an invitation to join the ATC. Not only has this let my team down, but this will now let our fans down and the other teams that we have kept out of position by defeating them.
Willy : Well Genna, but if you have no infos you should maybe just ask.
(Insert my ragepunching a pillow here)
Willy : We are sorry, I am. I could maybe ask Dennis if there is any way
Genna : As am I. I feel the most sorry for those other teams who would have gladly participated in an offline finals. If I would have known sooner, I would've bailed so as not to prevent them from any setbacks.
Willy : Well, if Axiom have to cancel their final spot, and next Team (Mill) would take the spot Ofc this is the worstcase I will talk to Dennis/Take maybe there is a way to find together
Genna : Yeah but that doesn't help any of the other teams who lost position along the way. Doesn't necessarily mean that Mill would've been the next team in line overall if we were removed from the equation.
Willy : Give me some minutes.
It's at this point that Dennis (TakeTV) stepped in. I'm hoping you all know Dennis, if you don't, you should. He's a great guy and does a lot for eSports.
+ Show Spoiler +Dennis : my aim right now is to find a solution with you just to let you know my next steps i will call acer and explain the situation and ask what they think
Genna : Ok
Dennis : i hope they might have a solution and support us some more i ve checked flights
Genna : Same here. I checked all my emails. Even the info sheet didn't give that information.
Dennis : once again i really wanna appologize thats very sucky but i am just wondering and i hope you can give me a honest answer my options are acer supports us if not
Genna : Yeah. Again it's not so much feeling bad for ourselves, but we're more upset for others. The other teams we kept from qualifying for offline finals, etc.
Dennis : i have to think about supporting you if this happens is thier a chance we can share cost at any point?
Genna : Next month because of DreamHack Bucharest and WCS NA we are already $15,000+ in expenses for team flights alone. That is before team salary cost and our team house costs, etc.
Dennis : yeah totally understandable
Genna : So while I wish we could help out, it is really not possible for us at this time.
Dennis : i am just wondering if its a possiblity for you for example use the 2k guaranteed for extra flights from the pricemoney which is guaranteed
Genna : We don't actually use any money from our players earnings. All money won by our players goes to them directly.
Dennis : okay i see but lets be honest thier chances doing pretty okay at the finale are there if we cant find a deal at all it would be the worst solution right? the point is i dont have big budgets that i can pay from my own pocket 3-4-5 flights
Genna : Worst case scenario, we forfeit and Millenium takes our slot.
Dennis : but before a team is not coming i really wanna help and even willing to pay some of my money into it thats why i ask i just try to find options
Genna : I'll have to talk to John about it to see if we have anything leftover from our sponsor pool for the month.
Dennis : okay and i will talk to acer about it if they would cover another 1500+ i think i am willing to help to on top
Genna : Okay. If we can keep this chat conversation open we can report back our findings. Just wish I would have known earlier about everything. I am a mother and CEO of two businesses. I don't read every single thread on Team Liquid, but I do read all my emails.
Dennis : i ll try to fix it asap yeah understandable we actually think the mail with the information didnt go out we have sent it at the cebit live at the venue to the teams but our feelings are that it never reached the teams we are checking on it atm
See what I mean? He's a great guy. Even offering to help pay our costs on top in the event Acer could give them more support. Did I really want that to be necessary, nope. All we could do was wait and plan for the worst. We found that we were tapped as far as our spending budget for team expenses for the month up until DH Bucharest, so it was up to Take and Acer to see if anything could be resolved. As a note of interest, at this time MVP announced their fundraiser to pay for costs to attend ATC.
+ Show Spoiler +Who : Dennis (TakeTV) & Me When : Aug. 9th @ 11am Where : Skype Dennis : hey genna are you around? would like to talk to you about the ATC i guess you have talked to uwe too he just sent me an email and told me that they will not pay any more money for any team in the ATC so what we promised will still be payed 1500 dollar and the 4 hotelbeds i already promised liquid quiet some time ago that i will pay some extracost which actually was planed to get paid by acer but they refused this now tbh to you but since i gave my word i will pay these extracost for them cause its my word but i can t effort to pay axioms travelcosts on top since we never promised anything like that and i dont have any budget for that. if you have any idea how we can fix that i would be more than glad! lets just chat whenever you are around Genna : Yeah I understand of course. It looks like MVP are having the same problem and they've started a fundraiser in order to get their players to ATC. Dennis : i dunno what i know is that they confirmed they will come quiet some time ago and pay the trips they never mentioned how they pay it the question is if you guys are up to do some stuff too? for me its just important to get an answer until monday if you can show up or not if we really have to ask someone to take ur place they ll also need time to book stuff etc Genna : I understand. While honestly we'd really like to participate, I'm afraid it's just not possible. We also have CranK suffering pretty badly from his injury and I'd really like to keep him at home to rest and recover before DH Bucharest. At this rate, I'm not even sure if he will back to competing form at that point either. I really hate to put a damper on the entire event by pulling out, but I don't really see what other option we have. I'd rather be financially responsible and forego attending one event than to give into my passion and be fiscally unstable. I really do hope the offline portion is amazing and I'm looking forward to watching, even if we can't compete ourselves. Dennis : hmm so this means you somehow sure u wont attend? that would be very very sad tbh Genna : Yeah 100%
Right, so here we are. A rather unfortunate series of events and all parties involved hurt tremendously. So, as any good redditor or TL community member, you must decide who to aim your pitchfork at.
A ) Axiom for not performing due diligence in being aware of all of the parameters for an event they were involved in.
B ) TakeTV for not communicating clearly with teams.
C ) Acer for not providing enough sponsorship to support travel for the offline portion of ATC.
Take your pick, but consider this.
A ) Fairweather fans are best known by their lack of support during hard times. We appreciate our loyal fans and when we do compete, we do it for them.
B ) Organizations that put together good quality events in our community should not be taken for granted. The ATC finals should be great and hopefully you tune in.
C ) Acer had a clear contract with TakeTV for a set sum in order to sponsor the event. As they also support a SC2 team, this is not the time to "email the sponsors".
Moral of the Story : When communication fails, there are no winners.
I understand that my blog won't lessen the anger many of you might feel towards me or my team. But, I'm hoping that you will all continue to support ATC and cheer for those who will be in Germany competing soon for your entertainment. Remember that our community exists upon symbiotic relationships. If there are no players, there is no event. If there are no organizers, there is no event. If there are no sponsors, there is no event. We must do what we can to preserve what we have in efforts to grow.
I'll try to answer any questions you guys have in this thread as they are posted.
 
|
It really sucks what you guys are going through, it seems to be problem after problem at the moment.
Good luck and hope you guys can be at your bes for Dreamhack, WCS Season 3, SC2L and everything else you have going on would love to see you guys succeed and win those 
|
Isn't prize money, traveling information, and tournament format the first thing a team manager should look at before signing up for a tournament? If the traveling information was somehow missing from the info. you received from TaKe, why didn't you contact him to ask before signing up? It seems like a reasonable assumption to make from the get go that full traveling fees won't be provided for all the teams qualified for the playoff considering the prize pool is only $20,000.
|
Thanks for all the information! It's so easy to think you know of something when it isn't fully cleared up. With all the information here the situation is quite clear, so yeah again, thanks for the information!
|
To get some perspective: What does a flight cost from Korea to EU, on average?
|
On August 15 2013 09:10 Conti wrote:
To get some perspective: What does a flight cost from Korea to EU, on average?
I think around $1800?
|
On August 15 2013 09:08 Junho.C wrote:
Isn't prize money, traveling information, and tournament format the first thing a team manager should look at before signing up for a tournament? If the traveling information was somehow missing from the info. you received from TaKe, why didn't you contact him to ask before signing up? It seems like a reasonable assumption to make from the get go that full traveling fees won't be provided for all the teams qualified for the playoff considering the prize pool is only $20,000.
It is actually an unreasonable assumption to make because it would be the only SC2 team league with an offline portion in the history of SC2 that has not paid for the travel of the finalists to be the best of our knowledge.
|
Honestly? no one should be pitchforked.
A) Did the best possible for her team
B) Did the possible to solve the situation for Axiom's players, including paying from his money,
C) Sadly they didn't promised one thing and didn't fulfilled
was a communication problem, a terrible one. What to do? be 100% sure of every single expense before the tournament, double check every single person/sponsor/team who said that will pay something, confirm and mark in a table (add the documentation proofing it too).
|
Im very sad that you cant attend but it just makes me look forward to the next Season, which im sure you are going to attend and make it to the offline finals, hopefully until then the travel costs get down and acer will pay more as they see that the event is working out well (which is why everyone should watch it, im sure you gonna enjoy it)!
|
It really suck that you won't be able to attend and that things just didn't go the way that you wanted to make it possible to go to the finals. Really appreciate the blog post and that you shared this information. Wish Axiom luck in Bucharest and any other event that the Axiom players attend to.
|
Canada1637 Posts
On August 15 2013 09:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:08 Junho.C wrote:
Isn't prize money, traveling information, and tournament format the first thing a team manager should look at before signing up for a tournament? If the traveling information was somehow missing from the info. you received from TaKe, why didn't you contact him to ask before signing up? It seems like a reasonable assumption to make from the get go that full traveling fees won't be provided for all the teams qualified for the playoff considering the prize pool is only $20,000. It is actually an unreasonable assumption to make because it would be the only SC2 team league with an offline portion in the history of SC2 that has not paid for the travel of the finalists to be the best of our knowledge.
How many offline portions of online SC2 team leagues have there been? GSTL @ IPL I don't think you can count... So there is just IPTL? and drawing conclusions about how TakeTV operates based on how IPL operates....? Two VERY different organizations.
This ordeal just sucks entirely for everyone involved.
|
I don't think we should be aiming our pitchforks at anyone. This is an unfortunate chain of events and sure, you could blame Axiom's staff for not reading the threads, et cetera, where the $1500 per team was announced, but if you get an infosheet about a tournament from the tournament staff, it is reasonable to assume that all relevant info will be in there.
Luckily Axiom could be replaced by Milennium, a good team in itself that should be able to put up a decent fight. I'm sure many would've preferred to see Axiom there, but what's done is done and they've been very clear about the whole situation and I can't see why anyone would hold ill will towards them. Kudos to both Axiom and TakeTV for trying to make the best of the shitty situation and being transparent about the issues!
|
On August 15 2013 09:11 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:10 Conti wrote:
To get some perspective: What does a flight cost from Korea to EU, on average? I think around $1800?
so even if they could afford to go its literally impossible for an organization based in korea to compete in EU in a team league setup ;D. whatever comes of this latest drama i think people should think long and hard about putting on team leagues with live finals. the money involved in just too huge ;/
|
Don't see why anyone would want to pitchfork. It's just a sad ordeal for all involved parties.
All we can hope for is the event to do well and have good games in spite of these unfortunate circumstances.
|
On August 15 2013 09:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:08 Junho.C wrote:
Isn't prize money, traveling information, and tournament format the first thing a team manager should look at before signing up for a tournament? If the traveling information was somehow missing from the info. you received from TaKe, why didn't you contact him to ask before signing up? It seems like a reasonable assumption to make from the get go that full traveling fees won't be provided for all the teams qualified for the playoff considering the prize pool is only $20,000. It is actually an unreasonable assumption to make because it would be the only SC2 team league with an offline portion in the history of SC2 that has not paid for the travel of the finalists to be the best of our knowledge.
This is like the 2nd major attempt at SC2 Team league, the first was IPTL. There weren't that many to begin with and I'm not even sure they paid travel fees. It seems like a question you would want to ask before committing the team and the players to 14 weeks of team games.
|
On August 15 2013 09:08 Junho.C wrote:
Isn't prize money, traveling information, and tournament format the first thing a team manager should look at before signing up for a tournament? If the traveling information was somehow missing from the info. you received from TaKe, why didn't you contact him to ask before signing up? It seems like a reasonable assumption to make from the get go that full traveling fees won't be provided for all the teams qualified for the playoff considering the prize pool is only $20,000.
Since the first email didn't even say anything about an offline finals, I had no idea. I sort of assumed it would all be online only until it was revealed later the would be an offline finals.
|
On August 15 2013 09:11 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:10 Conti wrote:
To get some perspective: What does a flight cost from Korea to EU, on average? I think around $1800?
More like 1000€ max for a two way trip if you fly with Korean Air. Can be a lot less depending on the company you fly in.
|
On August 15 2013 09:25 Intricacy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:08 Junho.C wrote:
Isn't prize money, traveling information, and tournament format the first thing a team manager should look at before signing up for a tournament? If the traveling information was somehow missing from the info. you received from TaKe, why didn't you contact him to ask before signing up? It seems like a reasonable assumption to make from the get go that full traveling fees won't be provided for all the teams qualified for the playoff considering the prize pool is only $20,000. Since the first email didn't even say anything about an offline finals, I had no idea. I sort of assumed it would all be online only until it was revealed later the would be an offline finals.
How did you not find about about it til so late into the tournament? It was known for awhile and even listed on liquipedia.
|
Yeah, no pitchfork here too. It's all understandable.
|
Mistakes were made, mostly by them for not properly communicating stuff, but also from Axiom for not making sure the expenses were paid for. I'm obviously not familiar with how business is conducted in e-sports but I certainly not assume that the money is there. It's preferable not to assume that the tournament runners have some unmentioned tens of thousands of dollars.
If it happened to me, I'm thinking it would feel similar to buying the wrong item on ebay because I clicked "buy it now" too fast. Except 100x more frustrating. And sure the ebay listing could be a bit more descriptive but sometimes you gotta contact that guy.
Hopefully the community won't take this too negatively, it happens. Cheers. Oh also, thanks Genna and TB for Axiom .
|
Very impressive, illuminating blog. Thank you so much for the transparency! There's so much secrecy in the scene as people try to control messages by carefully syphoning information, usually at a drip. A refreshing, professional explanation. Sad to hear good teams not being able to participate in good events... but as a manager who has made the other kind of fiscal decision (budget be damned) and eaten my hat for it, I certainly respect your decision. Axiom Fighting!
|
On August 15 2013 09:33 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:25 Intricacy wrote:On August 15 2013 09:08 Junho.C wrote:
Isn't prize money, traveling information, and tournament format the first thing a team manager should look at before signing up for a tournament? If the traveling information was somehow missing from the info. you received from TaKe, why didn't you contact him to ask before signing up? It seems like a reasonable assumption to make from the get go that full traveling fees won't be provided for all the teams qualified for the playoff considering the prize pool is only $20,000. Since the first email didn't even say anything about an offline finals, I had no idea. I sort of assumed it would all be online only until it was revealed later the would be an offline finals. How did you not find about about it til so late into the tournament? It was known for awhile and even listed on liquipedia.
Kind of busy with a lot of things. PAX East, broke my fibula rendering me disabled, WCS was a shock to the system that's for sure, trying to prevent Miya from retiring,, a large portion of focus was on GSTL, I produced SHOUTcraft America, SC2L, the ongoing search for a Zerg.... It all got to be so much, which is why I took on an assistant manager. Even though I don't get paid a dime to run this team I've always tried to run it like a person who does. I'm just grateful that now I have an assistant who should help avoid instances like this in the future.
|
Germany25649 Posts
"Moral of the Story : When communication fails, there are no winners. " sums it up pretty well for me.
Thanks for the blog, it is nice how open you are about these things
|
On August 15 2013 09:40 Intricacy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:33 Junho.C wrote:On August 15 2013 09:25 Intricacy wrote:On August 15 2013 09:08 Junho.C wrote:
Isn't prize money, traveling information, and tournament format the first thing a team manager should look at before signing up for a tournament? If the traveling information was somehow missing from the info. you received from TaKe, why didn't you contact him to ask before signing up? It seems like a reasonable assumption to make from the get go that full traveling fees won't be provided for all the teams qualified for the playoff considering the prize pool is only $20,000. Since the first email didn't even say anything about an offline finals, I had no idea. I sort of assumed it would all be online only until it was revealed later the would be an offline finals. How did you not find about about it til so late into the tournament? It was known for awhile and even listed on liquipedia. Kind of busy with a lot of things. PAX East, broke my fibula rendering me disabled, WCS was a shock to the system that's for sure, trying to prevent Miya from retiring,, a large portion of focus was on GSTL, I produced SHOUTcraft America, SC2L, the ongoing search for a Zerg.... It all got to be so much, which is why I took on an assistant manager. Even though I don't get paid a dime to run this team I've always tried to run it like a person who does. I'm just grateful that now I have an assistant who should help avoid instances like this in the future.
1 person can't run a whole SC2 team, especially not one that is as proactive as Axiom in foreign scenes. I'm glad you have some help now.
|
|
|
Meh, mistakes happen, but I'm pretty surprised that nobody at Axiom even asked about travel costs and whether or not they were funded. It seems like a weird thing to assume, especially without checking in any capacity.
Oh well, here's hoping that it provides a lesson to everybody involved to communicate better in the future.
|
I love axiom and its sad, but i look forward to the rest the stuff they are doing this year. the first guy really seemed frustrating to communicate with. impressed you didn't punch through your monitor lol.
|
On August 15 2013 09:54 JimmiC wrote:Well put, very professional response and explanation. I feel like you will get very little hate. I do think it would be wise for you to separate TB from the team. He seems good at generating attention. I don't think it's the attention thats good for the team, might grab him some more followers. But I digress. I think your post was excellent, and you lived your sentiment by communicating and not simply flaming those who don't know everything. Better to inform then flame.
JimmiC you're an idiot and you did nothing but lie and flame your way through 8 pages of drivel in the other thread, somehow I don't think we're gonna be taking you too seriously.
|
Genna, thank you for your forthrightness. I hope Crank gets better. Kudos to Dennis for being such a great guy. Thanks to MIllenium for stepping in.
|
Honestly the assumption that if you qualify for a team league the expenses are covered is completely reasonable. It's practically impossible for a team to make it work otherwise. I'm not quite sure what the thought was including teams from other continents when it was clear there would be no way for it to be financially viable.
It seems some people here have no clue how much money running a team costs every month. They'd probably have a heart attack if they find out how much WW spent on DH Winter for example (2 sf4 players, 5 man csgo team, 6 sc2 players and 2 managers). And HSC and EMS were in that same month as well.
On a barely related note. Personally, I think asking for handouts and donations is screwed up if you can do without. Teams asking for donations to get team houses or event support give me a headache. There's teams that can barely stay afloat, let them ask for donations. They actually need it.
|
btw, Dennis is personally helping to cover some expenses for Team Liquid? I though Liquid would be the last team in needing assistance. hmmm, I wonder what the story is.
|
assumptions in contracts, the bane of a legal defense lawyer's sanity.
seems like everyone acted reasonably once the assumptions were removed. take once again showing he is a stand up guy.
|
|
|
I was very sad to hear the news that my favorite team won't be participating; but I can't bring myself to be honestly mad at anyone involved, especially with all the transparency you've provided Genna.
Well, silver lining is that this will give the team a bit more 'down time' so they can come back firing on all cylinders for Dreamhack. Axiom FIGHTING!
|
Thanks Genna this is truly wonderful what you do, I don't pick a side, thats my side 
No point to hate on either one people just have to accept whats happen.
(the moral of the story is pretty much spot on)
I hope that a lot of people will learn about how awesome Dennis is.
What if you had done a fund raiser like MVP did, was the timespan just too short?
A Axiom Shoutcraft fund raiser can bring in a lot, like TB speculating doing when the team was formed.
Why haven't this been done, even if TB and others are fine with shoveling money the fund raisers could be used for unexpected mishaps to help support.
Edit: Also best of wishes to Crank.
|
On August 15 2013 10:30 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 10:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On August 15 2013 09:54 JimmiC wrote:"Moral of the Story : When communication fails, there are no winners. " Well put, very professional response and explanation. I feel like you will get very little hate. I do think it would be wise for you to separate TB from the team. He seems good at generating attention. I don't think it's the attention thats good for the team, might grab him some more followers. But I digress. I think your post was excellent, and you lived your sentiment by communicating and not simply flaming those who don't know everything. Better to inform then flame. JimmiC you're an idiot and you did nothing but lie and flame your way through 8 pages of drivel in the other thread, somehow I don't think we're gonna be taking you too seriously. possible fans
Oh no, a possible fan is upset, better shut down the entire organisation.
|
maybe i did miss something? why don't you check BEFORE entering a tournament how the situation regarding offline finals is? as i see it taketv/acer/atc made it clear from the beginning how the situation regarding the finals is, i just don't see how this is not the teams fault.
btw. wtf how can you just post private message logs on tl, LOL
|
Great blog, clears mostly everything up, just sad at this point that Axiom can't attend. Take is a true gent.
|
Title of the blog seems overly dramatic. As does the pitchfork remarks. I really don't see how these events could possibly cause the uproar from the community that you seem to expect. Not towards Axiom, TakeTV nor Acer.
Just chill..
Thank you for the transparancy into the team/organisation anyway and good luck at Dreamhack.
|
we could do a fundraiser to help ax go ? or too late?
|
On August 15 2013 11:10 mark05 wrote:
we could do a fundraiser to help ax go ? or too late?
Too late, and most people have already probably volunteered some $ towards MVP.
|
|
|
Very unfortunate situation. Hopefully Crank also recovers from his injury too
|
When Acer Teamstory Cup was first announced, I tried contacting the organisers via emailing, private messaging here on TL, Skype, social media, even some backwater IRC i dug up (on behalf of the team I'm involved with). Sadly, I never got a single response.
Whilst waiting for a response with more information on the event (ie. timezones, when matches would be played, costs), the qualifier sign-up closed and we missed out on trying to qualify. It was pretty disappointing to be honest.
|
On August 15 2013 11:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 10:46 TotalBiscuit wrote:On August 15 2013 10:30 JimmiC wrote:On August 15 2013 10:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On August 15 2013 09:54 JimmiC wrote:"Moral of the Story : When communication fails, there are no winners. " Well put, very professional response and explanation. I feel like you will get very little hate. I do think it would be wise for you to separate TB from the team. He seems good at generating attention. I don't think it's the attention thats good for the team, might grab him some more followers. But I digress. I think your post was excellent, and you lived your sentiment by communicating and not simply flaming those who don't know everything. Better to inform then flame. JimmiC you're an idiot and you did nothing but lie and flame your way through 8 pages of drivel in the other thread, somehow I don't think we're gonna be taking you too seriously. possible fans Oh no, a possible fan is upset, better shut down the entire organisation. I was warned by multiple private messages not feed the troll, even the semi famous narcissist ones. so Gnight Tb, enjoy the overcompensation. It's not going to make anything bigger but if it makes you feel better then its ok with me
LOL such a troll
You're choosing to leave the discussion because you have nothing important or useful to add, and you try to hide it by throwing around random statements to try and piss people off.
It's also better for you to leave now then get your ass totally destroyed if you try to engage in an actual discussion.
Just pointing out the obvious here.
|
United States744 Posts
I really appreciate hearing this. While I'm very disappointed that I won't be able to see Axiom compete, I completely understand that multiple parties can be blamed and in the end it's kind of a combination of everyone's mistakes. What you have done so far for Axiom has been great and we all look forward to seeing the players compete in future events, even if they do miss out on this. As they say, when one door closes, another opens. Keep giving your best and we will never be mad.
|
Canada13382 Posts
On August 15 2013 09:26 anGe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:11 Junho.C wrote:On August 15 2013 09:10 Conti wrote:
To get some perspective: What does a flight cost from Korea to EU, on average? I think around $1800? More like 1000€ max for a two way trip if you fly with Korean Air. Can be a lot less depending on the company you fly in.
1k Euro is about 1400 USD so not too far off really. Still a lot of money
|
I like the approach you and John take in running a team. Open and honest, it's really refreshing. Even if I don't always agree with you, you guys always have my support.
|
On August 15 2013 10:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:54 JimmiC wrote:"Moral of the Story : When communication fails, there are no winners. " Well put, very professional response and explanation. I feel like you will get very little hate. I do think it would be wise for you to separate TB from the team. He seems good at generating attention. I don't think it's the attention thats good for the team, might grab him some more followers. But I digress. I think your post was excellent, and you lived your sentiment by communicating and not simply flaming those who don't know everything. Better to inform then flame. JimmiC you're an idiot and you did nothing but lie and flame your way through 8 pages of drivel in the other thread, somehow I don't think we're gonna be taking you too seriously.
You know, I was debating lobbing some mild criticism at the flame magnet of a title Genna made, but that was done before reading the blog, and, more importantly, before skimming through that thread you mentioned. Read a little bit of JimmiC's comments, too. I gotta admit, that was an ouch moment. Hit me right in the faith for humanity.
Mild tangent, but Genna, your PR skills are amazing. When you say things you strike a perfect balance between humility, aggression, logic and openess. I could probably blab on for a while about why what you're doing is so hard, but I should probably just leave it at "You're amazing" so I don't scare off all the forum-goers with a pointless wall of text.
|
I mean really, I blame the TakeTV staff for failing to send you the information. That's pretty much the prime reason that this happened to Axiom. Even so I don't completely blame and stick my pitchfork up at TakeTV for a mistake. Granted the consequences were clearly massive, but hopefully they've learned from it.
|
Hey don't worry about it Genna, just one of those things. It's not a huge deal at all, Im sure you're already seeing this, cool to see full disclosure of what happened tho. So important in business to keep written records.
|
I consider option D.
D) Humans make mistakes. We cannot replicate our process 100% accurately. It will be sad, but life is life.
|
That sure does suck. Appreciate genna going out if her way to bring it to light.
Both make valid points and can't see a reason to single out someone to blame.
Maybe next time
|
Such a sad story in eSports.. Axiom is my favorite team, and it really blows that this had to happen. I guess it's a learning experience for everyone. I definitely blame Acer and ATC for the mishaps.. There is no way in hell you can be blamed even the slightest for this. Also really sucks hearing that CranK's neck is still messed up . I was hoping it'd get better sooner rather than later, and now it feels like it's almost worse.
Get better, CranK. And good luck in the future tournaments (Bucharest!), Axiom. Love you guys!
|
I will admit, I haven't read everything in the OP as it's fairly long. However, I still believe better choices could have been made. But since I'm not the team owner, and I recall reading that most of the team is physically unfit to play, there's no point in forcing the players to play either. Axiom and its players still has my support though, like they always do.
On August 15 2013 11:12 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 11:10 mark05 wrote:
we could do a fundraiser to help ax go ? or too late? Too late, and most people have already probably volunteered some $ towards MVP.
And they deserve it if the community feels that they deserve it. However, I don't think Axiom deserves any money from us/me, simply because TotalBiscuit fired shots at MVP and basically called them beggars.
|
No pitchforks. And things like this are one of the many reasons that Axiom is one of my favorite teams. Thank you very much for being so transparent with the whole situation and not keeping the fans in the dark.
I know laying out details like this probably only brings more pitchforks, but for me personally, it shows a great deal of respect. Thanks again.
Edit: Oh yeah, and what happened to Crank? Wrists?
|
There are people actually made at Axiom for not being able to send their players over? I dont understand how you could be angry at them. Ah well I dont blame anyone. Sucky situation but I know Axiom will continue to be a strong team.
|
Considering the possible high costs when NA/KR teams have to travel to Germany for the finals, it would have made more sense to have it piggyback another tournament, like IPL did with IPTL. 10+ people traveling for one game each just doesn´t make sense to me. My 2 cents: Either keep it European only, or online, or make it part of an event that teams travel too anyway.
|
Thank you for being so forthcoming with all the info Genna. It's a very welcome turn of events when the 'people up there' don't treat us 'down here' like idiots. Thank you for giving us all the information available so that we can see and understand and decide for ourselves whether we like it or not. Turns out, we 'internet nobodies' have brains afterall!
However, my opinion (based on following different eSports scenes for more than a decade, and even attempted at running my own team), is that it is not reasonable to assume that travel expenses to an event you're invited to will be covered by the organisers, unless they explicitly state so.
The fact that 'all other team leagues in SC2 do so' is irrelevant considering that there were basically no offline team leagues outside of Korea, and to my knowledge, most European events do not pay for players to fly over to their tournaments.
TaKeTV should have sent out that mailshot, but if it was already stated in a Skype conversation with all the team managers, if was included in TaKe's Press Release about the offline finals, and if the other team managers, and all of us spectators were aware of it, you should have been too.
I don't blame you for taking the decision that you did when you became aware of the circumstances, but I do believe it was avoidable by not assuming that all travel will be paid for, especially when it is not being organised by a huge company like IGN, MLG or ESL.
Eitherway, I'm happy to see Millenium attending, and I wish you all the best for GSTL.
|
The Korean teams are usually really chocked when the travel expenses are not paid by the tourney. But it's common sense for foreign teams I guess. For example Assembly (asus rog) tourneys in Finland, No One got their trip/hotels paid (and it is an Invitation only tournament!). I don't know why a player from a further away country should be entitled 1000$ for a trip, but a player close by would receive 0$? Or should only Korean players get their trips paid?
I believe in that the team sponsor has to pay the trips. Fair for all.
|
On August 15 2013 10:30 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 10:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On August 15 2013 09:54 JimmiC wrote:"Moral of the Story : When communication fails, there are no winners. " Well put, very professional response and explanation. I feel like you will get very little hate. I do think it would be wise for you to separate TB from the team. He seems good at generating attention. I don't think it's the attention thats good for the team, might grab him some more followers. But I digress. I think your post was excellent, and you lived your sentiment by communicating and not simply flaming those who don't know everything. Better to inform then flame. JimmiC you're an idiot and you did nothing but lie and flame your way through 8 pages of drivel in the other thread, somehow I don't think we're gonna be taking you too seriously. The champ of insulting possible fans shows up and undermines what the team manager is doing. Pure class. I'm guessing this is one of those opposites attract things? TB thought pattern *quick this thread is about the team and not me. I better hijack it and make it about me. I'm awesome, just ask me* And for the 38th time I never insulted the team just you. I also said it would be great if some one just responded informatively and professionally and she did. So as much as I dislike you I'm adult enough to admit when some one does something well. I thought I was going to have to change my opinion, but lucky you fly in and act like a dink. If you read that thread out side a couple of your fans most people agree with me and not you. But whatever floats your boats bud. Keep on keeping on and I hope some day you no longer feel the need to overcompensate for whatever it is that you hate about yourself. And can just be a decent dude. You have a large following (no idea why) it would be pretty cool if you set a good a example.
You can't be fucking serious? Not only did you post numerous fallacies, you also seem to have a warped sense of reality. There's a difference between having a different opinion than TB and agreeing with you and there were far more people supporting him than supporting you in that thread... You keep playing martyr/victim for no good reason.
As for his following, maybe you should actually take 5 seconds to actually do some research into what he really does for a living. A hint: it's not being a caster for sc2 or Axiom related, that's basically his hobbies.
Also there's other values than to pander to "possible fans." You know like honesty.
|
On August 15 2013 14:04 geokilla wrote:I will admit, I haven't read everything in the OP as it's fairly long. However, I still believe better choices could have been made. But since I'm not the team owner, and I recall reading that most of the team is physically unfit to play, there's no point in forcing the players to play either. Axiom and its players still has my support though, like they always do. Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 11:12 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 15 2013 11:10 mark05 wrote:
we could do a fundraiser to help ax go ? or too late? Too late, and most people have already probably volunteered some $ towards MVP. And they deserve it if the community feels that they deserve it. However, I don't think Axiom deserves any money from us/me, simply because TotalBiscuit fired shots at MVP and basically called them beggars.
So Axiom doesn't deserve any money because semantics? He called it begging instead of fundraising and his point wasn't even directed toward MVP if you try to actually read his post objectively. You don't have to give them your money but it's kind of funny how that is how you judge who "deserves" it or not.
Not that it would be hard for them to do it. If TB posted a video asking for travel money on his channel and some fundraising stream he'd get it. Maybe try thinking about why he didn't instead.
|
the reason to skip this team league offline final for ANOTHER team league offline final is a poor excuse and im surprised take is already inviting them back for next season, you make a commitment, you stick to it
|
On August 15 2013 16:33 PviLLe3 wrote:
the reason to skip this team league offline final for ANOTHER team league offline final is a poor excuse and im surprised take is already inviting them back for next season, you make a commitment, you stick to it
So what happened here is that Mrs Bain posted a thorough, detailed overview of the process that lead to them cancelling their showing in the offline finals. This post listed multiple reasons and made it clear that there was not a single reason that lead to them cancelling but rather a combination of circumstances and miscommunication.
Then you come in, cherry-pick one reason out of this huge post, blatantly ignore all the rest, and scold Axiom because they skipped this final for that single reason. Which obviously does not make sense in the slightest.
|
I can't blame anyone for not finding out through the announcement that travel compensation was not fully paid as I myself (who followed the league very closely) was under the impression that it was. I don't know why exactly that was, whether I heard conflicting statements or if that was something my mind made up, but it appeared to be very unusual to me that TaKeTV could afford to do that or Acer wanted to afford that, respectively. It was until the very end when Musicus informed me that it would be otherwise.
I hoped Axiom would know more as they were between the four directly invited teams. But I guess my faith in team-to-league communications was misplaced as Millenium and MVP didn't even know that there would be a second season half. And more so, the whole Karont3 story.
It seems that Axiom was expecting everything would be covered because of the precedent IPTL set. But relying on that... wasn't good. I am not hating here, but from someone that follows e-sports I expect that this is the one of the first things team managers check independent of whether the information was provided initially or not before they accept or decline an invitation.
From someone that followed e-sports for a long time, full travel compensation by the league/tournament is not something I automatically assume (although for some reason, I did in ATC). I remember when in WC3 World Elite under Reis had to win the whole NGL One to cover the cost. Full travel compensation became more as a thing that came to SC2 with the rivalry of MLG and IPL in 2011/12. I know I heard voices in Germany that paying these would be unreasonable and part of the team's job. And with the departure of the IPL and with MLG's lesser investment in SC2, teams will probably have to do without the travel support in the long run.
I was expecting for the teams to find out whether there would be full coverage or not over the modalities of such a coverage as in, how many players exactly will you cover, is the team manager/coach included and how much earlier can the team arrive in the destination. For example, I did never expect TakeTV/Acer to cover the travel of every MVP member, so MVP should have been informed early on about the details of the arrangement.
|
Good write-up. The bright side: I doubt this will happen to you again.
But please make a less sensationalist title next time^^.
|
On August 15 2013 16:45 Stijn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 16:33 PviLLe3 wrote:
the reason to skip this team league offline final for ANOTHER team league offline final is a poor excuse and im surprised take is already inviting them back for next season, you make a commitment, you stick to it So what happened here is that Mrs Bain posted a thorough, detailed overview of the process that lead to them cancelling their showing in the offline finals. This post listed multiple reasons and made it clear that there was not a single reason that lead to them cancelling but rather a combination of circumstances and miscommunication. Then you come in, cherry-pick one reason out of this huge post, blatantly ignore all the rest, and scold Axiom because they skipped this final for that single reason. Which obviously does not make sense in the slightest.
let me state im actually a huge fan of TB/GB/ and axiom in general
i was just picking the most obvious one that doesnt really make sense but ill pick some others if you wish.
stated they are dropping out due to TWO other tournaments(that im assuming they committed to AFTER this)
said they are dropping out due to a members fatigue(unfortunate but it happens)
said the cost of sending 6 people to WCS america, one to ASUS ROG, and another to MLG was way more funding than they expected, this one actually bugs me the most. they have 6 koreans, living in korea, playing in WCS NA where they know if many of them qualify that can be up to 4 flights every few months. no one forced them to play WCS NA
|
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights.
|
manager shoulda asked this sort of thing. it isnt a given man.
i mean this is the job of a manager after all. i guess this is a learning experience
|
Pretty bad, but i guess that is this whole mess with the "modern communication ways" email, skype, reddit, twitter, facebook whatever. You have so many ways to communicate and non with the exception of a solid email including all relevant information and a good old phone call really work.
|
On August 15 2013 18:09 Kingsky wrote:
manager shoulda asked this sort of thing. it isnt a given man.
i mean this is the job of a manager after all. i guess this is a learning experience
My feeling also. When they found out that final is offline management should have confirmed costs covered.
Likewise the tournament should have notified this.
A learning experience all around.
|
On August 15 2013 17:03 PviLLe3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 16:45 Stijn wrote:On August 15 2013 16:33 PviLLe3 wrote:
the reason to skip this team league offline final for ANOTHER team league offline final is a poor excuse and im surprised take is already inviting them back for next season, you make a commitment, you stick to it So what happened here is that Mrs Bain posted a thorough, detailed overview of the process that lead to them cancelling their showing in the offline finals. This post listed multiple reasons and made it clear that there was not a single reason that lead to them cancelling but rather a combination of circumstances and miscommunication. Then you come in, cherry-pick one reason out of this huge post, blatantly ignore all the rest, and scold Axiom because they skipped this final for that single reason. Which obviously does not make sense in the slightest. let me state im actually a huge fan of TB/GB/ and axiom in general i was just picking the most obvious one that doesnt really make sense but ill pick some others if you wish. stated they are dropping out due to TWO other tournaments(that im assuming they committed to AFTER this) said they are dropping out due to a members fatigue(unfortunate but it happens) said the cost of sending 6 people to WCS america, one to ASUS ROG, and another to MLG was way more funding than they expected, this one actually bugs me the most. they have 6 koreans, living in korea, playing in WCS NA where they know if many of them qualify that can be up to 4 flights every few months. no one forced them to play WCS NA
Actually, I read the WCS one as "had we known that WCS NA would come along and had we known that ATC does not fully reimburse the travel expenses for the offline finals, we would have canceled our participation in one of the events, knowing that our players cannot travel to both should they advance far enough."
|
So you just assumed that your travel and hotels would be paid for 5 or more players.
Well that was pretty stupid and its entirely on you, you just posted a load of other circumstantial rubbish that is completely irrelevant when you consider that.
When you assume you make an ass out of u and me. Ass|U|Me
Everything comes down to the fact that they didnt mention your tickets WOULDNT be paid for so you just assumed they WOULD be? Really? rofl.
I guess you live and learn but still, you should learn these things long before you own an international business.
|
On August 15 2013 17:29 Intricacy wrote:
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights.
Noted.
It's great to see a community figure make such an effort to clarify a situation like this Intricacy (lol @ the polite, sweet but also slightly sexist "mrs bains" in the thread). I personally don't care who's to blame for this; It's obvious that there is no malicious intent from any of the parties involved and that should be the only thing that matters. It's probably a good idea though to not announce something like this in a short tweet, better to post an article here or on reddit (preferably here because I don't do reddit; I live in a 17 stories high apartment building). One of the thoughts that popped in my mind while reading the tweet, besides "oh shit, Axiom isn't attending the ATC" and "Uh oh, shit storm incoming" was "reason(s)?". Anyway, I wish you and your team, particularly CranK, all the best and I hope other organizations take note of the way you, ultimately, handled this thing.
|
On August 15 2013 17:29 Intricacy wrote:
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights.
It says in the first mail you quoted,
The team league will start at around ~15. march(not fix yet!) and
culminate in fantastic finals at the TakeTV studio.
To be honest it sounds realy strange that no one connected with your team knew about the compensation and mentioned it..
Nevertheless, glad to see such transparency, mistakes were made on both ends but it would be the best if you would not argue for ur case anymore, leaves a bad taste.
|
On August 15 2013 17:29 Intricacy wrote:
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights.
erm, it says that in the first email?
|
On August 15 2013 18:46 Penev wrote:lol @ the polite, sweet but also slightly sexist "mrs bains" in the thread
...sexist?
I felt weird saying "Intricacy" since that's not how she's usually referred to as far as I've seen, and "Genna" sounded way too intimate. I'd never refer to TotalBiscuit as "John" either, but he's usually called by his nickname. Leaves "Mrs Bain", nothing sexist about that
On another note, pretty much all of Take's broadcasts are live from the TakeTV studios, even when he's just casting an online tournament or replays, so that e-mail didn't necessarily say much.
|
On August 15 2013 18:58 graan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 17:29 Intricacy wrote:
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights. It says in the first mail you quoted, Show nested quote +The team league will start at around ~15. march(not fix yet!) and
culminate in fantastic finals at the TakeTV studio.
That could mean anything from "live from venue" to "filmed broadcast from replays."
|
On August 15 2013 17:29 Intricacy wrote:
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights.
Quoting the first email:
TaKeTV will start a european Teamleague.
The team league will start at around ~15. march(not fix yet!) and
culminate in fantastic finals at the TakeTV studio.
The studio is in Krefeld Germany; I guess you know this since you mention you know the HSC. Makes pretty clear there is an offline portion.
|
On August 15 2013 19:20 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 18:58 graan wrote:On August 15 2013 17:29 Intricacy wrote:
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights. It says in the first mail you quoted, The team league will start at around ~15. march(not fix yet!) and
culminate in fantastic finals at the TakeTV studio. That could mean anything from "live from venue" to "filmed broadcast from replays."
That is nonsense. If you say, the finals are at a studio it is clear they are not from replays unless it is MLG.
|
On August 15 2013 19:20 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 18:58 graan wrote:On August 15 2013 17:29 Intricacy wrote:
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights. It says in the first mail you quoted, The team league will start at around ~15. march(not fix yet!) and
culminate in fantastic finals at the TakeTV studio. That could mean anything from "live from venue" to "filmed broadcast from replays."
Oh cmon man, read the line again, it's pretty clear.
|
Intricacy, maybe you feel so much hate, since the amount of perceived hate is much higher than the actual hate. Most people supported your decision. I don't get why you make such a drama over some people not agreeing with you.
|
On August 15 2013 19:12 Stijn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 18:46 Penev wrote:lol @ the polite, sweet but also slightly sexist "mrs bains" in the thread ...sexist? I felt weird saying "Intricacy" since that's not how she's usually referred to as far as I've seen, and "Genna" sounded way too intimate. I'd never refer to TotalBiscuit as "John" either, but he's usually called by his nickname. Leaves "Mrs Bain", nothing sexist about that On another note, pretty much all of Take's broadcasts are live from the TakeTV studios, even when he's just casting an online tournament or replays, so that e-mail didn't necessarily say much.
Haha, I'm sorry; It felt more polite and sweet than anything else. Don't understand why you'd feel weird saying Intricacy though but whatever.
|
On August 15 2013 19:34 grs wrote:
Intricacy, maybe you feel so much hate, since the amount of perceived hate is much higher than the actual hate. Most people supported your decision. I don't get why you make such a drama over some people not agreeing with you.
She's married to Total Biscuit, inventing drama that doesn't exist in order to get mad and whine and cry about it on the internet is his raison d'etre, no surprise it's rubbing off.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On August 15 2013 17:29 Intricacy wrote:
Just going to reiterate here again for those who might not have read my previous comment. When we were invited, there was no mention of any offline portion. None. You can read our invitation email, the rules, etc., not one word said a thing about an offline finals. If they had said "oh and we will have an offline final", I'd have asked for info about compensation. However, since it was added after the fact, I assumed no organizer would spring an offline finals on teams that had already accepted an invitation unless they were the ones paying for the flights.
but in the very first mail:
TaKeTV will start a european Teamleague.
The team league will start at around ~15. march(not fix yet!) and
culminate in fantastic finals at the TakeTV studio.
So there clearly is some blame on your part. Not the big part maybe but you act so very selfrightous.... atleast thats how it comes across to me.
Totally unrelated:
That Crank is injured may be a good reason to withdraw, but it should not have anything to do with the financial part. Also the commitment to other tournements as a reason not to compete in this one disturbes me.
I can totally understand your decision and it is probably the correct one businesswise, but the reasoning feels somewhat screwed for me. Why not just say, there was misscommunication (on both sides?) and we have other reasons why this is not our first priority - and be over with it? A replacement is found, Take seems to be okay with it, good enough for me.
Not a proud day but an okay day.
edit: apparently someone was faster, sorry for the more or less double post.
|
I won't point my patchfork anywhere, but the fact remains that 8/9 teams knew about the travel cost. One missed mail by TakeTV should not be enough to not know about it at all. Also I don't think assuming they would pay the full travel cost is reasonable just because IPL did it. But yeah it's just a bad situation for everyone with no one alone being at fault. No pitchfork here, but if I had to choose it would be a . Now I wish Axiom the best of luck at all the other events, hope that Axiom keeps becoming a financially more stable business and to see them again in ATC S2!
Thanks for that awesome blog post by the way Genna, very well written and makes things easy to understand. Also seems unbiased.
|
Thanks for the blog post explanation, Intricacy. Cleared up a lot. All the best to you and your team.
|
I don't even know why this was written in the first place, I think 99% of people either a) just don't care and had already forgotten about it (this post reminded me that this even happened, I can't be the only one) or b) support the decision and are wondering what the big deal is.
This just draws more negative attention to Axiom than was present in the first place and makes Axiom management look like they aren't confident in their decisions. You made the decision, you have your reasons, you know they're legit, one announcement and an apology backed up by Take should have been the end of it. Don't pander to the whiny sods who are only capable of findings negatives in anything.
|
Contracts for these leagues should have include the following:
Prize:
Date:
Format:
Offline or Online:
If Offline, what expenses are paid if anything:
IMO it's just too expensive for offline team leagues unless the team league is in a central location where all teams are capable of traveling through the use of public transportation (bus/subways/taxi/etc)...basically like Proleague and GSTL
I do side more with Axiom though b/c I do agree with their assumptions and actions. And it was a communication issue more on the side of TakeTV as the contract seemed to leave out some crucial information but we are humans and mistakes happen. If you leave out information like there being an offline event, one can only assume that you are not having one (offline event).
|
On August 15 2013 09:11 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:10 Conti wrote:
To get some perspective: What does a flight cost from Korea to EU, on average? I think around $1800?
Few pages late already I'm sure, but this sounds over the top. From Sweden to Korea you can fly for $600 at least so that sounds extreme to me
|
Wow, i'm impressed with the transparency in explaining that, especially when we see how MLG decided to handle "SC2 situation".
Communication issues happen, it sucks but its nothing to cry about to much.
Sad too not see Axiom in ATC finals, but i feel like other teams could learn a lot from Axiom how to contact with community.
|
While I agree that in the first email it should be clear that the finals take place offline and I dare to say Genna should have asked about travel expenses, she is right that its not of her business to gather information about the league afterwards. While its only a small email that seemingly went missing, its crucial information for her.
While we can read forums all day everyday, she has to run a team and I guess she also got a private life, so while its a SMALL mistake on the part of TaKeTV it made the situation rather dull. I cannot understand why Genna accepted the invite assuming it will all be online when it states 'at the studio' but as mentioned, the mail she didn't receive was the crucial point here.
I am not blaming anyone, it simply happend and mistakes do happen in every mistake. She is also right about that really the fans and other players are robbed. I think Axiom can take that 'hit' very well and I feel she is doing reasonable business decision here, but its overall a very unfortunate situation overall.
I was looking forward to see and cast Axiom at the studio especially Ryung who seemed to be on fire lately, shame, my loss. Hope they can do well in season 2
|
On August 15 2013 20:55 Vond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 09:11 Junho.C wrote:On August 15 2013 09:10 Conti wrote:
To get some perspective: What does a flight cost from Korea to EU, on average? I think around $1800? Few pages late already I'm sure, but this sounds over the top. From Sweden to Korea you can fly for $600 at least so that sounds extreme to me
If you can tolerate layovers you can go between Germany and Korea round trip for about 600$, 1000$ for late booking. Direct flights should be about 50% more (up to two weeks prior, afterwards it gets crazy but they had two weeks). Layovers can take up to 12h though so that sucks a little.
On that matter, simply assuming that an event will shell out 5.000+$ for travel for a single team (flights, accomodation, transportation etc.) seems highly optimistic...and then still warrants asking about it prior to signing anything.
Also, can anybody explain to me why Axiom didn't have a joker? They were already down to 5 players and later 4 during the season, having a joker would potentially have lessened the burden of getting 4 players over there and allowed them to deal with injuries.
|
Seems like mistakes were made on both ends. A bit haphazard in the planning and execution of the event by its staff, as well as a bit of absent-mindedness/negligence from Axiom.
Some people may find fault for one of the parties, but the truth is, one is a bunch of people supporting eSports through event management, and another is through team management. Hopefully everyone involved learns from this incident and we can move forward into positive and prosperous times.
|
On August 15 2013 20:13 Musicus wrote:I won't point my patchfork anywhere, but the fact remains that 8/9 teams knew about the travel cost. One missed mail by TakeTV should not be enough to not know about it at all. Also I don't think assuming they would pay the full travel cost is reasonable just because IPL did it. But yeah it's just a bad situation for everyone with no one alone being at fault. No pitchfork here, but if I had to choose it would be a . Now I wish Axiom the best of luck at all the other events, hope that Axiom keeps becoming a financially more stable business and to see them again in ATC S2! Thanks for that awesome blog post by the way Genna, very well written and makes things easy to understand. Also seems unbiased.
That's one of the best typo's I've ever seen; Patchfork FTW! XD
|
While it sucks that things had to go this way, I think every party involved reacted as best as they could have after realizing there was information that was left out. Sorry for Axiom, hope you guys are back for the next ATC
|
Junho.C has been on Axiom's case in every SC2 related forum. Dear lord guy move on, wow.
All of this blows, end of story. I will say however, as a TB/Axiom fan, John you gotta stay out of these threads. Every time Genna makes a post it's well written, on point and professional and then the moment someone's negative you come in and just slam on the unprofessional, name calling schtick. While this is probably fine for the Total Biscuit brand it's killing the Axiom brand (for me at least). My .02, take it or leave it.
Best of luck to you both in the future, please send my regards to Crank I hope he gets well soon.
-Z
|
It's unfortunate, It's shitty, It happens. No need to get the pitchforks out.
(Sundance, MLG, please take note on how you communicate to the SC2 community, a great example is provided here).
|
Shouldn't there be contracts signed when signing up for the league that should include all that information?
i never took part in any esports competition with a larger prize pool, so i dont know how things are run, but especially if there is a substantial amount of money involved, the whole deal should be written down and signed?
|
Maybe I am just too retarded, but it took me a while to find out that this is written by the owner of Axiom - which, arguably, is a fact that gives the topic infinitely much more weight than if it was written by just some random TL user. Yes, it becomes kinda obvious during reading (or pretty creepy if you don't get it - how does that guy get to all these emails?), but I wouldn't probably have read that very far if I didn't know that (again, because I am not interested in a random guy's opinion on the drama).
So, I would suggest making it more obvious who you are, if you are someone relevant.
|
It appears this is the thread where we most conveniently forget that Axiom had their way with the schedule for ATC. Should they have played every week like every other team, things could have gone very differently for such a small team with all its member in Korea.
Some call this event unfortunate, I prefer to see it as a karma retribution.
PS : I laughed at the supposition that Millenium replacing Axiom is unfair for other teams seeing how Axiom is the only team who beat them twice ...
|
On August 16 2013 01:54 Otolia wrote:
It appears this is the thread where we most conveniently forget that Axiom had their way with the schedule for ATC. Should they have played every week like every other team, things could have gone very differently for such a small team with all its member in Korea.
Some call this event unfortunate, I prefer to see it as a karma retribution.
PS : I laughed at the supposition that Millenium replacing Axiom is unfair for other teams seeing how Axiom is the only team who beat them twice ...
I'm sure that Axiom tried their best with the schedule they were given... What was the ATC goign to do? Disqualify them for every match they couldn't make? What kind of a league would that be?
|
Something I never understood is why teams/players/etc feel entitled that tournaments should pay for all their expenses to play at the tournament...? I really don't understand that at all. Shouldn't that be the team/sponsor's job
|
On August 16 2013 04:26 ffadicted wrote:
Something I never understood is why teams/players/etc feel entitled that tournaments should pay for all their expenses to play at the tournament...? I really don't understand that at all. Shouldn't that be the team/sponsor's job
If a team is going to spend its time competing in an event, and they end up reaching an offline portion, they should be compensated for their time. What does the team gain from spending time participating in a league? The chance that they might make some money? That's not a very good business model.
|
|
|
On August 16 2013 01:54 Otolia wrote:
It appears this is the thread where we most conveniently forget that Axiom had their way with the schedule for ATC. Should they have played every week like every other team, things could have gone very differently for such a small team with all its member in Korea.
Some call this event unfortunate, I prefer to see it as a karma retribution.
PS : I laughed at the supposition that Millenium replacing Axiom is unfair for other teams seeing how Axiom is the only team who beat them twice ...
Pretty tasteless of a Millenium fanboy to gloat that much. :/
|
On August 16 2013 01:54 Otolia wrote:
It appears this is the thread where we most conveniently forget that Axiom had their way with the schedule for ATC. Should they have played every week like every other team, things could have gone very differently for such a small team with all its member in Korea.
Some call this event unfortunate, I prefer to see it as a karma retribution.
PS : I laughed at the supposition that Millenium replacing Axiom is unfair for other teams seeing how Axiom is the only team who beat them twice ...
Well damn, can't seem to let things go can you?
Millenium had a great run in the ATC, and now they get to compete in the playoffs. Great, now there's no need to bash on Axiom. It just makes you sound bitter. You can bitch all you want about matches being delayed, but I bet you wouldn't have said anything if Axiom delaying their matches until the end had benefited Millenium's playoff chances.
Millenium got lucky. They had a great tournament run, got barely edged out due to map score, and now get a second chance. Rejoice.
|
On August 16 2013 06:50 Kasaraki wrote:
Pretty tasteless of a Millenium fanboy to gloat that much. :/
Like it is for Totalbiscuit to insult everyone in LR threads but I don't see you complaining that. Besides I'm not in the tasty business, I'm in the business of saying my opinion all the time and not missing an opportunity for payback.
On August 16 2013 07:39 Bagration wrote:
Well damn, can't seem to let things go can you?
Millenium had a great run in the ATC, and now they get to compete in the playoffs. Great, now there's no need to bash on Axiom. It just makes you sound bitter. You can bitch all you want about matches being delayed, but I bet you wouldn't have said anything if Axiom delaying their matches until the end had benefited Millenium's playoff chances.
Millenium got lucky. They had a great tournament run, got barely edged out due to map score, and now get a second chance. Rejoice.
Bash ? Where do I bash Axiom here ? I'm merely stating facts.
But yeah when someone personnally insults me, I take every opportunity to bask in their demise. I'm that kind of guy.
|
On August 16 2013 06:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 05:46 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 16 2013 04:26 ffadicted wrote:
Something I never understood is why teams/players/etc feel entitled that tournaments should pay for all their expenses to play at the tournament...? I really don't understand that at all. Shouldn't that be the team/sponsor's job If a team is going to spend its time competing in an event, and they end up reaching an offline portion, they should be compensated for their time. What does the team gain from spending time participating in a league? The chance that they might make some money? That's not a very good business model. Golfers pay there own way to tournaments. Its up to them to find sponsors so on. Same with Nascar. All pro sports teams pay for there own travel. Poker same thing.
Wait no they don't, you think everyone walks around with those stupid pokerstars logos because they really like the site? And golfers are generally guaranteed more money than the cost.
Team leagues are extremely unattractive costwise for teams. I don't know anything about the workings of Axiom. But if I told a sponsor we invested 6k for a 1 in 4 chance the players win 10k, they would have me thrown out on the spot. Just like Axiom, we take nothing from the players prizemoney, but at the end of the day you have to do the simple math. When you're better off giving the money to the players rather than letting them play, it's extremely hard to justify sending them.
That's why, especially after such a long qualification process, I'd have been very disappointed as well that there wasn't more money to cover travel.
|
|
|
Canada217 Posts
I don't think it's very professional to post all of the private E-mails on a public messageboard without permission.
|
TLADT24920 Posts
hmm it's really interesting to see what goes behind the shadows but as mentioned I'm not sure posting these private skype conversations was a good idea. It would've been much better to just write a general paragraph with the information for the fans to know what happened. Reading through, this was the part about the costs:
"Costs: We will pay 1,500$ and the Hotel, Eating at the venue and will manage the whole transport from/to the airport (dusseldorf) We are sorry but we can´t provide more money for the Travelcost this Season (but this was announcent already in March when the league started) Hope this will help already."
To me at least, sounded like its only $1,500 and the hotel that they pay for. The last bit says that you have to pay for the travel costs yourself which makes sense. I guess I'm confused as to how that was missed or it was Take's fault.
|
somethings wrong here.... someone said a flight is 1000$ 2 ways. So that would be 4k total.. 4 players, right? Minus 1500 take would have paid = 2,5k, axiom would have to pay themselves. Genna said (i think) somewhere in the OP even if they made 1st place in the tournament it would be not enough to even pay the flights... although the first place money is 10k. even the 3rd (of 4 total) spot would give them 3k, which is, together with takes money 4,5k, which is already more than then flights cost.
Seems weird.
|
On August 17 2013 03:02 senfkatze wrote:
somethings wrong here.... someone said a flight is 1000$ 2 ways. So that would be 4k total.. 4 players, right? Minus 1500 take would have paid = 2,5k, axiom would have to pay themselves. Genna said (i think) somewhere in the OP even if they made 1st place in the tournament it would be not enough to even pay the flights... although the first place money is 10k. even the 3rd (of 4 total) spot would give them 3k, which is, together with takes money 4,5k, which is already more than then flights cost.
Seems weird.
1000 euros, which is closer to $1500.
Also, tournament winnings are also generally taxed (not sure how it works in Germany)...plus you'd be taking the prize money from the players.
|
On August 17 2013 03:02 senfkatze wrote:
somethings wrong here.... someone said a flight is 1000$ 2 ways. So that would be 4k total.. 4 players, right? Minus 1500 take would have paid = 2,5k, axiom would have to pay themselves. Genna said (i think) somewhere in the OP even if they made 1st place in the tournament it would be not enough to even pay the flights... although the first place money is 10k. even the 3rd (of 4 total) spot would give them 3k, which is, together with takes money 4,5k, which is already more than then flights cost.
Seems weird.
I remember paying around 1600 euro per flight to DH Summer. I don't know about Kreveld(?) Germany, I'm sure someone can look it up.
Quick math;
1600 *4 = 6400.
Add a third to go to $. ~$8500
8500-1500= $7000
While on topic. Why are a European events prizes in US anyway? I misread that originally.
|
On August 17 2013 05:28 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 03:02 senfkatze wrote:
somethings wrong here.... someone said a flight is 1000$ 2 ways. So that would be 4k total.. 4 players, right? Minus 1500 take would have paid = 2,5k, axiom would have to pay themselves. Genna said (i think) somewhere in the OP even if they made 1st place in the tournament it would be not enough to even pay the flights... although the first place money is 10k. even the 3rd (of 4 total) spot would give them 3k, which is, together with takes money 4,5k, which is already more than then flights cost.
Seems weird. I remember paying around 1600 euro per flight to DH Summer. I don't know about Kreveld(?) Germany, I'm sure someone can look it up. Quick math; 1600 *4 = 6400. Add a third to go to $. ~$8500 8500-1500= $7000 While on topic. Why are a European events prizes in US anyway? I misread that originally.
Pretty much everything's listed in dollars in esports, I guess. That way American's don't need to convert anything and organizers can make their prize pools look bigger than they actually are to Europeans.
|
Im sorry but i can't see how posting private conversions helps anything, it sucks you guys cant get the team there, but it seems your putting Take in a tough position.
|
she should have just left quietly without posting all this shit
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
