EPTThis is probably a long shot, but could it be that there´s more frustration in NA (has always been in my perception), because of the American belief in anything being possible, if you work really hard? And it turns out that is not true in a very competitive environment, where everybody works hard?
Being a Progamer in North America in 2013 - Page 2
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
This is probably a long shot, but could it be that there´s more frustration in NA (has always been in my perception), because of the American belief in anything being possible, if you work really hard? And it turns out that is not true in a very competitive environment, where everybody works hard? | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On July 04 2013 10:12 Xeris wrote: While I agree that quitting school for a completely uncertain future (especially in 2013) may have been a bad move. I do think that there should be a more viable American community that fosters talent and allows American players to "easily" win money. The frustration comes not because he quit school and moved to a house to play full time, but a general lament over the fact that the realistic chances for a player to make a) money, b) a stable living off of SC2 in NA is practically 0 unless you're one of maybe 4-5 players (and I'm not even talking about competitively). It does suck. Shew's concern that there aren't enough tournaments in NA is one that I understand. But even if there were more offline tournaments, that doesn't, in itself, provide a more reliable means by which these mid-low tier AM pros can earn a living off SC2. The only reliable way to give low-mid tier AM pros the ability to earn money more easily, as I understand, would be region locking online and offline tournaments. My issue with this is why should better players (primarily Koreans, but many Europeans too) be denied money, and a stable living off of SC2, simply on the basis of their nationality? The Korean scene, for example, doesn't appear to provide many realistic chances for their mid-low tier pros to make money or a stable living off of SC2. However, their ability to travel to EU and AM tournaments does provide them with these chances. As far as I understand the situation, the problems with the American tournament scene are not isolated to the American scene. The Korean scene suffers from similar issues. Is there a viable Korean community outside of WCS KR anymore? Surely the lack of such a community is responsible for the influx of mid-low tier of KR pros into the WCS AM scene. As it stands, there are (at least) two groups who lack realistic chances to make money and a stable living from SC2: the mid-low tier Koreans and the Americans. And one of these groups (based on skill) deserve more opportunities to make money and a stable living from SC2. Are tournaments that target American players specifically sustainable anymore? The answer to that would seem to be yes. But would the investment be worthwhile for any major tournament holder when they could hold international competitions in which the level of play will be higher? We had Genna's/TotalBiscuit's tournament which did well. Nevertheless, it's possible that the success of that tournament can be partly attributed to the fact that it was somewhat unique in the scene and riding on the general sentiment expressed in Shew's post. Furthermore, that was only one tournament: would future tournaments be as successful? I think that there's a market for American only tournaments but it would be quite the investment for any business and the level of competition is going to be lower inevitably. The issue is really complicated and I can't really do it justice with posts on TL forums. I just think that Shew's issues with the scene are just one flawed aspect of a scene that is still developing and, as a result, has many problems that affect many players across multiple regions. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On July 04 2013 15:43 NarutO wrote: Players like you are the reason the scene isn't growing and that you (we) are behind Koreans by a large margin. Do you really believe Korea is the land of honey and sugar? How many players do you think never make it past 'practice partner' or not even to that point? If you don't want to take the chance and/or the risks of being a progamer, simply don't do it. If I could financially sustain myself with being a progamer, I would play everyday 15 hours a day. Even through ladder you can get a ton better and rise to a level that will easily get you money in tournaments. You also have monthly cups, you from NA can participate and take part/ladder in European tournaments (go4sc2, zotac, EnerJ etc) while also laddering on the superior Korean server with next to no latency depending on your region. I have a full time job, do sports and enjoy freetime and when the season started and I decided I want to be active again I made about 500 games in two weeks. I will have two weeks off soon and I will bootcamp with grandmaster/high master allies and have set up schedule for the day, with sports, food + starcraft 2. Goal is 700 games (50 per day). I don't know what you expect. Its not easy to sustain yourself if you are not on a good or big team , have no team house but thats the chance you have to take. You can either live at home and do nothing for a year besides playing or you can take your chance and go study / have a job and play in your spare time. Polt goes to school full time and still manages to beat down very good players at MLG. SeleCt comes back from inactivity and beats Koreans in the American qualifier, going further than any other American. You're scarily disconnected from reality. 15 hours a day? That's great that you can maintain that for 2 weeks, now try doing it for a year without losing motivation or your wrists going to shit (the latter is actually a bigger threat). | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
It's like American weightlifting. I support it, I root for it, but American lifters are not good enough to be competitive internationally. They don't 'deserve' anything either. Earn it. Boxer earned it in Korea. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
It's not because they didn't want to, it's because they couldn't catch up to the Koreans level of skill (most of the foreigners went pro due to being a foreigner and it was for advertising i.e. Draco / NonY / IdrA (reminder: they never won courage, and were given the license from the team, not earning them in a tournament setting) and the help of Daniel Lee) actually all 3 of us were rising up in our inner team rankings. idra was rising up really slowly, but still rising. i was in about the 30th percentile of the B team on day one and about 80th percentile after just two months (two shitty months when i was still trying to adjust to the schedule and not getting its full benefit). we did round robin ranking tournaments more than once a week so these arent just guesses based on practice games. i literally improved my win percentage every ranking tournament i played. i was on track to get to proleague much faster than the average korean. i also talked to draco about his experiences in korea and he did similarly well. he was improving faster than average. his performance absolutely wasnt a problem this isnt even about personal pride. what you are writing is flat out anti-foreigner propaganda. twisting the true stories, discouraging all non-koreans from ever trying to equalize. there are huge mental blocks preventing NA players from giving their best performances and the behavior and the opinions of the community aren't helping. as for naruto, you say you'd practice 15 hours and then you list a bunch of examples of people who succeed with just part time efforts. maybe take a hint from your own post and from common sense and realize that practicing every waking moment isnt optimal, it isnt admirable, and it shouldnt be used as a test for whether or not a person has what it takes to be a progamer. that kind of shit will be discouraging too. there is a set of people that can compete just fine while taking 6 hours a day for recreation, exercise and relaxation. to shew: being a progamer means becoming the best you can at the game. that's the best motivation you can have. it's the motivation you can have no matter what tournaments and prize pools are being thrown your way. if motivation wavers based on how many tournaments are coming up and how much prize money they have, then that's a fundamental mental problem. the only real concern here is whether you can get the financial support necessary to train and whether you have opportunities to prove yourself against better players. imo there are still enough NA players who have such support and there are still enough opportunities to compete. we just gotta perform better relative to the rest of the world. fk it im going back on hiatus from the community. this place is toxic as hell. progamers gotta put themselves in an environment that gives them their best chance at winning. reading forums is a huge no-no. | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
I think it's a lot of what NonY said and also a strive for you to do better. Think about it this way if there are tournaments every other weekend you don't have that time for training and prep that you normally would. Honestly that is probably what threw a lot of the Pro gamers down a couple skill levels in NA. You have 3-4 Major tournaments a year and you have to practice and kick ass to do well in them. Though you are already on the way to being noticed. you just have to work hard and you will get there. I have played with ya even back when there were lans here in CA like every other day it was crazy. If you got the drive and the mental fortitude you will succeed and kick ass don't let yourself get down that is the road to failure! | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
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sLideSC2
United States225 Posts
On July 05 2013 07:32 NonY wrote: actually all 3 of us were rising up in our inner team rankings. idra was rising up really slowly, but still rising. i was in about the 30th percentile of the B team on day one and about 80th percentile after just two months (two shitty months when i was still trying to adjust to the schedule and not getting its full benefit). we did round robin ranking tournaments more than once a week so these arent just guesses based on practice games. i literally improved my win percentage every ranking tournament i played. i was on track to get to proleague much faster than the average korean. i also talked to draco about his experiences in korea and he did similarly well. he was improving faster than average. his performance absolutely wasnt a problem this isnt even about personal pride. what you are writing is flat out anti-foreigner propaganda. twisting the true stories, discouraging all non-koreans from ever trying to equalize. there are huge mental blocks preventing NA players from giving their best performances and the behavior and the opinions of the community aren't helping. as for naruto, you say you'd practice 15 hours and then you list a bunch of examples of people who succeed with just part time efforts. maybe take a hint from your own post and from common sense and realize that practicing every waking moment isnt optimal, it isnt admirable, and it shouldnt be used as a test for whether or not a person has what it takes to be a progamer. that kind of shit will be discouraging too. there is a set of people that can compete just fine while taking 6 hours a day for recreation, exercise and relaxation. to shew: being a progamer means becoming the best you can at the game. that's the best motivation you can have. it's the motivation you can have no matter what tournaments and prize pools are being thrown your way. if motivation wavers based on how many tournaments are coming up and how much prize money they have, then that's a fundamental mental problem. the only real concern here is whether you can get the financial support necessary to train and whether you have opportunities to prove yourself against better players. imo there are still enough NA players who have such support and there are still enough opportunities to compete. we just gotta perform better relative to the rest of the world. fk it im going back on hiatus from the community. this place is toxic as hell. progamers gotta put themselves in an environment that gives them their best chance at winning. reading forums is a huge no-no. naruto is low-mid masters at best, just disregard him. http://nios.kr/sc2/us/1v1/hots/search/naruto/us-31503 gl User was warned for this post | ||
CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11601 Posts
On July 05 2013 07:32 NonY wrote: actually all 3 of us were rising up in our inner team rankings. idra was rising up really slowly, but still rising. i was in about the 30th percentile of the B team on day one and about 80th percentile after just two months (two shitty months when i was still trying to adjust to the schedule and not getting its full benefit). we did round robin ranking tournaments more than once a week so these arent just guesses based on practice games. i literally improved my win percentage every ranking tournament i played. i was on track to get to proleague much faster than the average korean. i also talked to draco about his experiences in korea and he did similarly well. he was improving faster than average. his performance absolutely wasnt a problem this isnt even about personal pride. what you are writing is flat out anti-foreigner propaganda. twisting the true stories, discouraging all non-koreans from ever trying to equalize. there are huge mental blocks preventing NA players from giving their best performances and the behavior and the opinions of the community aren't helping. as for naruto, you say you'd practice 15 hours and then you list a bunch of examples of people who succeed with just part time efforts. maybe take a hint from your own post and from common sense and realize that practicing every waking moment isnt optimal, it isnt admirable, and it shouldnt be used as a test for whether or not a person has what it takes to be a progamer. that kind of shit will be discouraging too. there is a set of people that can compete just fine while taking 6 hours a day for recreation, exercise and relaxation. to shew: being a progamer means becoming the best you can at the game. that's the best motivation you can have. it's the motivation you can have no matter what tournaments and prize pools are being thrown your way. if motivation wavers based on how many tournaments are coming up and how much prize money they have, then that's a fundamental mental problem. the only real concern here is whether you can get the financial support necessary to train and whether you have opportunities to prove yourself against better players. imo there are still enough NA players who have such support and there are still enough opportunities to compete. we just gotta perform better relative to the rest of the world. fk it im going back on hiatus from the community. this place is toxic as hell. progamers gotta put themselves in an environment that gives them their best chance at winning. reading forums is a huge no-no. There is no one that is disregarding what any foreigner has done. Please don't misunderstand me, what you guys have achieved is nothing short of amazing. The three of you were "foreigners last hope". You have all gained skill that is nothing short of admirable. You are all amazing, and when I had met Idra in 2010, you shortly after, and Draco a few months ago I was starstruck to say the least. Ret as well (how did I ever forget him?!) What all of you accomplished was amazing. And I have the most upmost respect for anyone, foreigner or Korean, who wants to take a shot at being a professional gamer. And I watched the forums intently during your courage matches, amazed at what you could do, and amazed at how well you preformed. Despite all this, the coaches had to go out on a limb to pick you up and add you to the roster in the very beginning. They opted to add you despite top Korean amateurs. They had the Nal house, the [gm] house, and the many applications to join as a practice partner. All of whom had no language barrier, and many who were younger. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from taking the opportunity, and I respect everyone who does. When I first decided to move Korea I was hoping to join the Nal team house and play in Courage, hoping to follow your footsteps. I was unfortunate that the last courage ended just before I came. So I'm not saying it can't be done, in fact it's the opposite. There are many more opportunities now for foreigners, and in many regards more so than Koreans, to try to be pro. Shew I apologize for derailing, and in many aspects, I am quite envious of your decision. I wish you the best of luck, and hope you accomplish everything you hope to. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On July 05 2013 05:33 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: You're scarily disconnected from reality. 15 hours a day? That's great that you can maintain that for 2 weeks, now try doing it for a year without losing motivation or your wrists going to shit (the latter is actually a bigger threat). Every person / player is different. As NonY named, there are people that get a long with less training and there are people that need a good amount of training. While I believe NonY is not completely right on that matter as in a player that is very good with 6 hours of practice, he might be amazing with 10 hours of practice. While there is also the counterpart. If you overplay yourself, get frustrated and 'fog your vision' you will suffer and not gain anything from a lot of hours of practice. What kind of person/player you are is up to you to understand. That being said, I think to build up the basics of being a progamer which would be understanding of the game (can be done without playing excessive amounts of hours) I think the automation of process (mechanics) cannot be done by simply watching replays, streams or looking into the game itself. Mechanics are basic execution of the game, and you learn and progress in that faster the more you do it. I don't believe NonY would argue that, would you? While 15 hours of practice might be too much, as I said I think I was too harsh/exaggerated a bit, I think 12 hours is easily doable. At least for me. I said if I were progamer and could sustain myself, that means not going to work 12 hours essentially is easy to do. Personally I'd go for something like this: 9AM - 10AM | get up & have breakfast / read news if you like 10AM - 2PM | practice 2PM - 3PM | workout 3PM - 4PM | shower, lunch 4PM - 8PM | practice 8PM - 8:30PM | dinner 8:30PM - 0:30AM |practice 0:30AM - 1:30AM | relax That is a tight schedule, but is has meals with enough time in it to also prepare them, it has sports which I think is a very good balance for a progamer and you will have enough sleep. Ofcourse you can argue any point "enough sleep" "sports" etc, but in the end, that is just a rough estimate. About wrists, I personally don't think your wrists will go to shit, not even with 15 hours of practice if you can manage to do that as long as you have a balance due to sports. Few progamers actually have wrist problems, there are more that seem to either have none or its not public. With what I wrote I think NonY's reply is also handeled and I think he would agree to the things mentioned above, every individual is different and some need lesser training than others, but as a progamer you should have a set amount of training and mechanics are build by playing, not by learning from watching. ----------- To the guy that said I'm low-mid masters and people should disregard me, as you were cocky and dumb enough to make such a blatant statement, I'll answer in a cocky way that is usually not really my style, but I got more points on my server (EU) than your #1 masters in US. I am a lot higher in the ranking than you are and its beyond me how you think you can search for naruto in the first place, on the wrong server and with me mentioning that I've 500 games and you list someone that has 100? Sorry to disappoint you. Sorry to the OP, I didn't mean to disrespect you, I simply think that as -want to be progamer- you should show ambition and courage and not be simply discouraged by the fact that its hard to break into the scene. My suggestion would be play EU monthly / weekly cups, if you are good and win some or place high, you will be recognized. Also I'd suggest you to play on the Korean server if its possible for you, as even with less practice time the reward will be higher as the level of play there is overall better. | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
I think a lot of people forget (or don't understand), what being a "pro" at any game is fundamentally about. It means there is enough of a following and appreciation of that particular game, that people are willing to pay (directly or indirectly) to see the best at that game compete. Only when a game/sport has reached a massive popularity level, is there enough money in the system for it to trickle down to supporting/developmental leagues (pro sports), that are about developing talent for the future. SC2 will never be a this level, trust me. We can talk about how we wish it weren't this way, but the bottom line is that the popularity and the dollars simply aren't there. You can either compete at the level people are willing to pay to see (basically the absolute best, when it comes to sc2) or not. There really isn't any middle ground here, and it is because of the dollars. | ||
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pique
143 Posts
On July 06 2013 00:05 HardlyNever wrote: I think a lot of people forget (or don't understand), what being a "pro" at any game is fundamentally about. It means there is enough of a following and appreciation of that particular game, that people are willing to pay (directly or indirectly) to see the best at that game compete. Only when a game/sport has reached a massive popularity level, is there enough money in the system for it to trickle down to supporting/developmental leagues (pro sports), that are about developing talent for the future. SC2 will never be a this level, trust me. I think this is a great point. There's more than one way to interpret 'pro' as it pertains to SC2 and its different regions. Korean pros are undoubtedly the closest to what we would consider typical sporting figures. We've taken that image and tried to make it work in the West, ending up with a sort of frankenstein of a sustainable industry, where players are valued similarly for their crazy antics as they are for their ability to compete. The Western SC2 scene is very different from any traditional sporting scene in terms of fostering development, the significance of team branding (with some exceptions) and a general cohesive group of competitors. I think NonY is correct in saying going 'pro' in this game, at this point in time, should be about aiming to be the best player you can be. If you're looking for job security this is probably not the industry to be looking into. | ||
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chadissilent
Canada1187 Posts
Good luck in the future Alex, you always know where to reach me if you ever need anything. Love ya bud. | ||
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