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Wrote this for the blizzard esports AMA today, it didn't get much attention and it's still something i feel very strongly about so I made it into a blog post.
This past january, i decided to go full-time into sc2. I moved into a team house and have been doing so ever since. Boy did i pick the wrong year to devote my life to this scene (or lack thereof) in NA.
At the end of 2012 i was very optimistic. NA had plenty of tournaments (ipl, mlg, lonestar clash, nasl, etc). I went to an event every few months roughly. With the implementation of this new WCS system and closure of IPL, the scene has been severely lacking. This past weekend was MLG Anaheim, which was my (and NA's) first major offline event for the year. By this time in 2012 we had 3, if not 4 events. MLG just announced their next event at the end of november, so we're realistically looking at 2 major events for the year (3 if you count iem NY which has a small # of players qualify, nothing major or open compared to an MLG).
On the flip-side if you look at Europe, they seem to be doing very well. On top of a strong WCS format (not overly flooded with koreans) they also have regular major and regional events like dreamhack, esports-m, eps, eset uk masters, dscl, homestory cup, and asus rog.
Sure north america has qualifiers for a few of these events, but they are skewed. Only 3 people qualify for HSC in 1 massive bracket but at least it was region locked. For IEM china all u had to do was be physically in NA at the time of the qualifier to compete, so we had koreans from redbull and MLG participate.
A lot of this factors into motivation/drive. I've talked to many high level players (both famous and no-name NA players) who are losing their drive/motivation to play simply because there is not much to play for. Unless you're a big name and can get invited to tournaments, it is extremely difficult to break into the scene with such little chances.
I feel lost and frustrated as a person devoting my life to this and living in North America. WCS NA is a lost cause with the over-saturation of koreans and flawed system (only 8 new players into challenger?! Come on) and because of wcs, tournaments like MLG have had to cut back or completely abandon their tournament plans. How am i supposed to prove myself as a player if i get 2 chances in an offline setting for the entire year?
tl;dr
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EslXWyw.jpg)
 
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a lot of this makes sense, and I've had similar thoughts for a while now. everything just seems dead in the na star2 scene right now.
hopefully blizz makes an effort to help out the na scene, and maybe everything will feel a bit more possible.
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Nice to see the posts from those who are living it. Even though stuff is hard for the NA scene the only thing I can say is please don't give up!
We need more players and representatives here in North America. Personally I am trying to create another opportunity for the North American players for offline events as well as bimonthly onlines, but currently it is nothing but a massive money sink. I am working as well as finishing up programming class when my heart really lies with eSports.
All of my team is working as pure volunteers right now until we can find a way to secure a capital investment so we can make the splash we need. North America needs more events and that is our endgame. Unfortunately I have to be patient. I cannot afford to rush headlong into something and have it blow up in my face. It has the ability to make or break me.
Please always remember there are people trying. We just need help showing sponsors why they should help us.
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good read, i agree with just about everything you said and GL in the future events you compete in !
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The issue of NA progaming is such a tricky issue. While I'm not able to comment on how hard it would be to go fulltime in Korea or EU, I can say that going full-time progaming is very very difficult, and often involves making sacrifices in school or work.
Still, I don't know if it is ever possible in the near future to create consistent NA talent capable to compete at the highest level. Setting up teamhouses does nothing it seems.
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Korea (South)11579 Posts
progaming is not a very realistic goal except for the extreme select few. It's not only conditional on the tournaments that go on, but the practice environment. Being a progamer outside of Korea / China only prepares you to compete with people outside of Korea / China. Either which way, you are much more lucky than many of the Starcraft: Brood War competitive gamers. The idea of a team house was unheard of and absurd. The idea of having anything other than WCG was crazy.
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On one hand I have a lot of sympathy for people following a dream, doing what they love. On the other hand, If you can't see yourself man-ing up and kicking some Korean butt, then you might as well call it a day. A US professional scene can't and won't exist in a bubble, you need to be able to fight the best in the world if you want to make it your full-time job.
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So you're basically complaining about the fact that your dubious decision to play the game full time isn't paying off for you.
Those Korean progamers who take the WCS AM spots will work just as hard as you do (if not more so) and are better at the game. You're supposed to prove yourself as a player by beating those Koreans. Why should you should be entitled to certain privileges simply on the basis of your nationality (thereby penalising players of different nationalities who are superior in skill)? If AM players spent more time playing the game as opposed to whining about Koreans in WCS maybe there would be some in the Ro8.
The lack of regular offline events in the US no doubt creates some problems. But the fact of the matter is that most of these US players openly whining about Korean dominance are just too bad at the game to compete with them. Despite this, they believe they are entitled to prize money from tournaments and that superior players should be penalised.
If you're not good enough to compete with the best then you either get better or retire from competition. People aren't entitled to anything simply because they're an NA progamer.
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Its really not feasible to do this in NA as a player I feel, that is why I stopped pursuing pro-gaming(just recently) into more of a personality/streamer. We have the infrastructure to do that as NA players since most of the time we have good personalities etc. There hasnt been a "successful" NA player since HuK/IdrA (round of 4/8 in GSL) to be honest, but that was in a time period where some NA could be pretty equal with the Koreans at a GSL level.
Were slowly moving into BW phase because we dont have the infrastructure of Korean Culture+Gaming.
Europe is pretty close(as we can see from results) but NA really dont stand a chance.
The european culture is diff from the NA culture. My boss at work travels around the world alot for meetings, and NA workers are the hardest working(in terms of hours) compared to the other parts of the world. Some countries in europe if its friday, man works done at 4 and people go home, in NA people work till 10 and even through the night.
So to be honest, if you havent succeeded now, it might be time to move on cause youre just hurting your future goals.
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On July 04 2013 10:04 Absentia wrote:
So you're basically complaining about the fact that your dubious decision to play the game full time isn't paying off for you.
Those Korean progamers who take the WCS AM spots will work just as hard as you do (if not more so) and are better at the game. You're supposed to prove yourself as a player by beating those Koreans. Why should you should be entitled to certain privileges simply on the basis of your nationality (thereby penalising players of different nationalities who are superior in skill)? If AM players spent more time playing the game as opposed to whining about Koreans in WCS maybe there would be some in the Ro8.
The lack of regular offline events in the US no doubt creates some problems. But the fact of the matter is that most of these US players openly whining about Korean dominance are just too bad at the game to compete with them. Despite this, they believe they are entitled to prize money from tournaments and that superior players should be penalised.
If you're not good enough to compete with the best then you either get better or retire from competition. People aren't entitled to anything simply because they're an NA progamer.
While I agree that quitting school for a completely uncertain future (especially in 2013) may have been a bad move. I do think that there should be a more viable American community that fosters talent and allows American players to "easily" win money. The frustration comes not because he quit school and moved to a house to play full time, but a general lament over the fact that the realistic chances for a player to make a) money, b) a stable living off of SC2 in NA is practically 0 unless you're one of maybe 4-5 players (and I'm not even talking about competitively).
It does suck.
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On July 04 2013 08:36 CaucasianAsian wrote:
progaming is not a very realistic goal except for the extreme select few. It's not only conditional on the tournaments that go on, but the practice environment. Being a progamer outside of Korea / China only prepares you to compete with people outside of Korea / China. Either which way, you are much more lucky than many of the Starcraft: Brood War competitive gamers. The idea of a team house was unheard of and absurd. The idea of having anything other than WCG was crazy.
no, no, no, no, and no. this doesn't make any sense at all. That is like saying it is not realistic to play soccer in the MLS because you won't be as good as the dudes in barclays premiere league. In 2012 there were alot more chances to get notcied/become popular/get picked up by major teams as a north american, Just look at what Scarlett did. Also, you can't compare the first ~10 years of esports to the next ~10. The idea was absurd back then because there was no foreign viewership to attract foreign sponsors/investors.
WCS has hurt the NA scene badly. MLG Columbus will most likely be the last starcraft mlg in my opinion with the way things are going now, and the wcs na is crowded with Korean players. at the same time, the European scene seems like it is going very well as shew said above.
Being a foreign progamer is realistic just by the fact that foreign progamers exist. Things will get better, viewership is growing and blizzard is (with many bumps along the way) increasing involvement to help things become more stable and sustainable. Calling shew "lucky" is incredibly disrespectful and fucking disgusts me. cheers.
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On July 04 2013 08:36 CaucasianAsian wrote:
progaming is not a very realistic goal except for the extreme select few. It's not only conditional on the tournaments that go on, but the practice environment. Being a progamer outside of Korea / China only prepares you to compete with people outside of Korea / China. Either which way, you are much more lucky than many of the Starcraft: Brood War competitive gamers. The idea of a team house was unheard of and absurd. The idea of having anything other than WCG was crazy.
I want to echo this point. This is absolutely correct. Right now, it is hard, and it will always be hard. The difference between starcraft and other sports, is that other sports have satellite cups, they have triple A, double A, single A, etc. They have stuff to break the process of trying to be good enough for the show into steps that allow people to live until they are good enough. With starcraft, it was much harder than now back in BW, it is contingent on you being good enough for the show immediately, which is impractical.
EDIT: I also want to say this. I don't want to infringe on anyone's dream. I think that Blizz needs to take a hint from Riot. Blizz needs to be running tournaments to let people into the different tiers. Much in the same way the LCS has LCS Quals and a regular LCS. FXOpen just got into the LCS via the quals. If Blizz created Blizz qualifier tourneys, it could seriously lower the pool of people who think they can be pros and also make the going easier for people who want to become pros.
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Trying to be an upcoming pro-gamer atm is almost like climbing the Northern Wall in Game of Thrones, but, you're doing it without climbing gear b/c Blizzard told you it was for pussys. There's also only one or two spots on the wall you can climb, everywhere else gives you frostbite or the rocks fall. glhf. Hopefully there is a Jon Snow among us.
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Korea (South)11579 Posts
On July 04 2013 10:19 sLideSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 08:36 CaucasianAsian wrote:
progaming is not a very realistic goal except for the extreme select few. It's not only conditional on the tournaments that go on, but the practice environment. Being a progamer outside of Korea / China only prepares you to compete with people outside of Korea / China. Either which way, you are much more lucky than many of the Starcraft: Brood War competitive gamers. The idea of a team house was unheard of and absurd. The idea of having anything other than WCG was crazy. no, no, no, no, and no. this doesn't make any sense at all. That is like saying it is not realistic to play soccer in the MLS because you won't be as good as the dudes in barclays premiere league. In 2012 there were alot more chances to get notcied/become popular/get picked up by major teams as a north american, Just look at what Scarlett did. Also, you can't compare the first ~10 years of esports to the next ~10. The idea was absurd back then because there was no foreign viewership to attract foreign sponsors/investors. WCS has hurt the NA scene badly. MLG Columbus will most likely be the last starcraft mlg in my opinion with the way things are going now, and the wcs na is crowded with Korean players. at the same time, the European scene seems like it is going very well as shew said above. Being a foreign progamer is realistic just by the fact that foreign progamers exist. Things will get better, viewership is growing and blizzard is (with many bumps along the way) increasing involvement to help things become more stable and sustainable. Calling shew "lucky" is incredibly disrespectful and fucking disgusts me. cheers.
The difference is that MLS exists, and is only based in America and only those in America can play. Someone on Manchester cannot come to play in the MLS for 1 game, win a lot of money, then go back to play for Manchester United.
There are separate leagues for separate people. We have WNBA, Womens Soccer, etc... which makes it much easier for a woman to go pro in various sports as opposed to the male dominated scene (with the exception of a very few girls, i.e. flow / scarlet ).
Being a pro gamer, especially in Starcraft 2, means that you have to play against others on a global level, which makes it much more difficult. Not only are you competing in tournaments against those from Germany, Italy, Poland, Korea, and China, but you are also competing against the same people for the limited sponsorship deals. There is less money involved in gaming, and the majority of it goes to the asian (i.e. Korean) players because they are so much better, work harder, and have a defined league (i.e. KeSPa). Plus it's unstable (look at the teams that are constantly popping up and then leaving, for instance IGN's old team, ROOT, etc...). There are only a few teams globally compared to the small country of Korea. It's not as defined globally, there is no universal ruling party (FIFA), and there is nothing that says that it's sustainable after 5 years without being forced to change games (DOTA -> HON -> LoL / Dota2)
It is much easier now-adays to go pro in Star2 because of the money involved. There are more tournaments, there are more sponsorships (hell, even Templars of Twilight during the BW era [think EG] didn't have any sponsorships / team houses). As a result, if there is no money outside Korea, how do you expect to go pro if you are not good enough to get onto a Korean team? And very very few foreigners ever went pro in starcraft 1. It's not because they didn't want to, it's because they couldn't catch up to the Koreans level of skill (most of the foreigners went pro due to being a foreigner and it was for advertising i.e. Draco / NonY / IdrA (reminder: they never won courage, and were given the license from the team, not earning them in a tournament setting) and the help of Daniel Lee). As a result, it's lucky for someone to have the opportunity to even consider going pro.
I admit I haven't followed the Star2 scene in about 2 years so I may be overlooking some things, but considering to go pro, ESPECIALLY outside of Korea requires you not only to be playing at the top level globally, but it requires you to put many things on hold (i.e. education, career opportunities, etc...). If you can't compete against the Koreans, and are not willing to put in a work ethic that will allow you to catch up to the pro Koreans (and surpass them) you simply aren't cut out for pro gaming, because you have to compete globally for everything (once again, tournaments / sponsorships / etc...)
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It's not ideal and it's really hard, but if you stick with it and put in 120% you can make it happen. It's still such a niche, dream-job and so whilst we don't have to be happy about the current way wcs is playing out, you have to keep a positive and growth-oriented mindset. Keep improving yourself and you will get your chances. There will still be WCG, WCS qualifiers, Shoutcraft, and many other teamleagues and online cups that continue to pop up on top of MLGs. Remember that as hard as it gets there's always someone out there that's dealt a rougher hand. Competing for a living, especially in something as friggin awesome as SC2 is a privilege, and you're already on the right path in the Clarity House! Keep working to get better and better practice partners and improve systematically and there's no limit to what you can achieve.
Gl hf!
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Korea (South)11579 Posts
I apologize, I don't mean to persuade anyone to not give it a shot if they have the opportunity. If you are willing to work hard, anything is possible.
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On July 04 2013 10:04 Absentia wrote:
So you're basically complaining about the fact that your dubious decision to play the game full time isn't paying off for you.
Those Korean progamers who take the WCS AM spots will work just as hard as you do (if not more so) and are better at the game. You're supposed to prove yourself as a player by beating those Koreans. Why should you should be entitled to certain privileges simply on the basis of your nationality (thereby penalising players of different nationalities who are superior in skill)? If AM players spent more time playing the game as opposed to whining about Koreans in WCS maybe there would be some in the Ro8.
The lack of regular offline events in the US no doubt creates some problems. But the fact of the matter is that most of these US players openly whining about Korean dominance are just too bad at the game to compete with them. Despite this, they believe they are entitled to prize money from tournaments and that superior players should be penalised.
If you're not good enough to compete with the best then you either get better or retire from competition. People aren't entitled to anything simply because they're an NA progamer.
Either your reading comprehension is bad or mine is. Just because the word "Koreans" was used doesn't mean he is whining about the Koreans being all up in NA. The blog post is focused on the lack of open events in NA, compared to EU and Korea.
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On July 04 2013 14:23 CaucasianAsian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 10:19 sLideSC2 wrote:On July 04 2013 08:36 CaucasianAsian wrote:
progaming is not a very realistic goal except for the extreme select few. It's not only conditional on the tournaments that go on, but the practice environment. Being a progamer outside of Korea / China only prepares you to compete with people outside of Korea / China. Either which way, you are much more lucky than many of the Starcraft: Brood War competitive gamers. The idea of a team house was unheard of and absurd. The idea of having anything other than WCG was crazy. no, no, no, no, and no. this doesn't make any sense at all. That is like saying it is not realistic to play soccer in the MLS because you won't be as good as the dudes in barclays premiere league. In 2012 there were alot more chances to get notcied/become popular/get picked up by major teams as a north american, Just look at what Scarlett did. Also, you can't compare the first ~10 years of esports to the next ~10. The idea was absurd back then because there was no foreign viewership to attract foreign sponsors/investors. WCS has hurt the NA scene badly. MLG Columbus will most likely be the last starcraft mlg in my opinion with the way things are going now, and the wcs na is crowded with Korean players. at the same time, the European scene seems like it is going very well as shew said above. Being a foreign progamer is realistic just by the fact that foreign progamers exist. Things will get better, viewership is growing and blizzard is (with many bumps along the way) increasing involvement to help things become more stable and sustainable. Calling shew "lucky" is incredibly disrespectful and fucking disgusts me. cheers. The difference is that MLS exists, and is only based in America and only those in America can play. Someone on Manchester cannot come to play in the MLS for 1 game, win a lot of money, then go back to play for Manchester United. There are separate leagues for separate people. We have WNBA, Womens Soccer, etc... which makes it much easier for a woman to go pro in various sports as opposed to the male dominated scene (with the exception of a very few girls, i.e. flow / scarlet ). Being a pro gamer, especially in Starcraft 2, means that you have to play against others on a global level, which makes it much more difficult. Not only are you competing in tournaments against those from Germany, Italy, Poland, Korea, and China, but you are also competing against the same people for the limited sponsorship deals. There is less money involved in gaming, and the majority of it goes to the asian (i.e. Korean) players because they are so much better, work harder, and have a defined league (i.e. KeSPa). Plus it's unstable (look at the teams that are constantly popping up and then leaving, for instance IGN's old team, ROOT, etc...). There are only a few teams globally compared to the small country of Korea. It's not as defined globally, there is no universal ruling party (FIFA), and there is nothing that says that it's sustainable after 5 years without being forced to change games (DOTA -> HON -> LoL / Dota2) It is much easier now-adays to go pro in Star2 because of the money involved. There are more tournaments, there are more sponsorships (hell, even Templars of Twilight during the BW era [think EG] didn't have any sponsorships / team houses). As a result, if there is no money outside Korea, how do you expect to go pro if you are not good enough to get onto a Korean team? And very very few foreigners ever went pro in starcraft 1. It's not because they didn't want to, it's because they couldn't catch up to the Koreans level of skill (most of the foreigners went pro due to being a foreigner and it was for advertising i.e. Draco / NonY / IdrA (reminder: they never won courage, and were given the license from the team, not earning them in a tournament setting) and the help of Daniel Lee). As a result, it's lucky for someone to have the opportunity to even consider going pro. I admit I haven't followed the Star2 scene in about 2 years so I may be overlooking some things, but considering to go pro, ESPECIALLY outside of Korea requires you not only to be playing at the top level globally, but it requires you to put many things on hold (i.e. education, career opportunities, etc...). If you can't compete against the Koreans, and are not willing to put in a work ethic that will allow you to catch up to the pro Koreans (and surpass them) you simply aren't cut out for pro gaming, because you have to compete globally for everything (once again, tournaments / sponsorships / etc...)
yeah dude, i think i didnt come across well at all with my post, sorry about that. I agree with you on that it is insanely difficult, but your post made it sound like (at least to me) that you were completely ok with how the NA scene is going right now just because it was better than broodwar and we're lucky to have what we have, and that's how it should be.
I just hate how blizzard starts up this huge WCS circuit and strangles leagues out of the space while not doing anything to fill the void left from the leagues they killed. I don't think that we feel entitled, but if blizzard is going to put all this effort and money in while killing sustainable-ish leagues like NASL, they might as well do it right, and they are definitely leading sc2 down a shit path right now at least in north america.
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Korea (South)11579 Posts
Welcome to Blizzard, the anti-esports company. (remember the lawsuit against KeSPA?)
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Players like you are the reason the scene isn't growing and that you (we) are behind Koreans by a large margin. Do you really believe Korea is the land of honey and sugar? How many players do you think never make it past 'practice partner' or not even to that point? If you don't want to take the chance and/or the risks of being a progamer, simply don't do it.
If I could financially sustain myself with being a progamer, I would play everyday 15 hours a day. Even through ladder you can get a ton better and rise to a level that will easily get you money in tournaments. You also have monthly cups, you from NA can participate and take part/ladder in European tournaments (go4sc2, zotac, EnerJ etc) while also laddering on the superior Korean server with next to no latency depending on your region.
I have a full time job, do sports and enjoy freetime and when the season started and I decided I want to be active again I made about 500 games in two weeks. I will have two weeks off soon and I will bootcamp with grandmaster/high master allies and have set up schedule for the day, with sports, food + starcraft 2. Goal is 700 games (50 per day). I don't know what you expect. Its not easy to sustain yourself if you are not on a good or big team , have no team house but thats the chance you have to take. You can either live at home and do nothing for a year besides playing or you can take your chance and go study / have a job and play in your spare time.
Polt goes to school full time and still manages to beat down very good players at MLG. SeleCt comes back from inactivity and beats Koreans in the American qualifier, going further than any other American.
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It´s an extremely competitive sport and like in any other, it really sucks to be stuck at the bottom with so many others who can´t break out. You really have to be cut out for it, mentally, I mean. People who succeed internationally at (reasonably big competitive) sports have to be extremely competitive and talented.
This is probably a long shot, but could it be that there´s more frustration in NA (has always been in my perception), because of the American belief in anything being possible, if you work really hard? And it turns out that is not true in a very competitive environment, where everybody works hard?
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On July 04 2013 10:12 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 10:04 Absentia wrote:
So you're basically complaining about the fact that your dubious decision to play the game full time isn't paying off for you.
Those Korean progamers who take the WCS AM spots will work just as hard as you do (if not more so) and are better at the game. You're supposed to prove yourself as a player by beating those Koreans. Why should you should be entitled to certain privileges simply on the basis of your nationality (thereby penalising players of different nationalities who are superior in skill)? If AM players spent more time playing the game as opposed to whining about Koreans in WCS maybe there would be some in the Ro8.
The lack of regular offline events in the US no doubt creates some problems. But the fact of the matter is that most of these US players openly whining about Korean dominance are just too bad at the game to compete with them. Despite this, they believe they are entitled to prize money from tournaments and that superior players should be penalised.
If you're not good enough to compete with the best then you either get better or retire from competition. People aren't entitled to anything simply because they're an NA progamer. While I agree that quitting school for a completely uncertain future (especially in 2013) may have been a bad move. I do think that there should be a more viable American community that fosters talent and allows American players to "easily" win money. The frustration comes not because he quit school and moved to a house to play full time, but a general lament over the fact that the realistic chances for a player to make a) money, b) a stable living off of SC2 in NA is practically 0 unless you're one of maybe 4-5 players (and I'm not even talking about competitively). It does suck.
Shew's concern that there aren't enough tournaments in NA is one that I understand. But even if there were more offline tournaments, that doesn't, in itself, provide a more reliable means by which these mid-low tier AM pros can earn a living off SC2. The only reliable way to give low-mid tier AM pros the ability to earn money more easily, as I understand, would be region locking online and offline tournaments.
My issue with this is why should better players (primarily Koreans, but many Europeans too) be denied money, and a stable living off of SC2, simply on the basis of their nationality? The Korean scene, for example, doesn't appear to provide many realistic chances for their mid-low tier pros to make money or a stable living off of SC2. However, their ability to travel to EU and AM tournaments does provide them with these chances.
As far as I understand the situation, the problems with the American tournament scene are not isolated to the American scene. The Korean scene suffers from similar issues. Is there a viable Korean community outside of WCS KR anymore? Surely the lack of such a community is responsible for the influx of mid-low tier of KR pros into the WCS AM scene. As it stands, there are (at least) two groups who lack realistic chances to make money and a stable living from SC2: the mid-low tier Koreans and the Americans. And one of these groups (based on skill) deserve more opportunities to make money and a stable living from SC2.
Are tournaments that target American players specifically sustainable anymore? The answer to that would seem to be yes. But would the investment be worthwhile for any major tournament holder when they could hold international competitions in which the level of play will be higher? We had Genna's/TotalBiscuit's tournament which did well. Nevertheless, it's possible that the success of that tournament can be partly attributed to the fact that it was somewhat unique in the scene and riding on the general sentiment expressed in Shew's post. Furthermore, that was only one tournament: would future tournaments be as successful? I think that there's a market for American only tournaments but it would be quite the investment for any business and the level of competition is going to be lower inevitably.
The issue is really complicated and I can't really do it justice with posts on TL forums. I just think that Shew's issues with the scene are just one flawed aspect of a scene that is still developing and, as a result, has many problems that affect many players across multiple regions.
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The problem with these conversations is that too many people are so eager to explain why it's ok the way it is rather than try to think of a way to change it.
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On July 04 2013 15:43 NarutO wrote:
Players like you are the reason the scene isn't growing and that you (we) are behind Koreans by a large margin. Do you really believe Korea is the land of honey and sugar? How many players do you think never make it past 'practice partner' or not even to that point? If you don't want to take the chance and/or the risks of being a progamer, simply don't do it.
If I could financially sustain myself with being a progamer, I would play everyday 15 hours a day. Even through ladder you can get a ton better and rise to a level that will easily get you money in tournaments. You also have monthly cups, you from NA can participate and take part/ladder in European tournaments (go4sc2, zotac, EnerJ etc) while also laddering on the superior Korean server with next to no latency depending on your region.
I have a full time job, do sports and enjoy freetime and when the season started and I decided I want to be active again I made about 500 games in two weeks. I will have two weeks off soon and I will bootcamp with grandmaster/high master allies and have set up schedule for the day, with sports, food + starcraft 2. Goal is 700 games (50 per day). I don't know what you expect. Its not easy to sustain yourself if you are not on a good or big team , have no team house but thats the chance you have to take. You can either live at home and do nothing for a year besides playing or you can take your chance and go study / have a job and play in your spare time.
Polt goes to school full time and still manages to beat down very good players at MLG. SeleCt comes back from inactivity and beats Koreans in the American qualifier, going further than any other American.
You're scarily disconnected from reality. 15 hours a day?
That's great that you can maintain that for 2 weeks, now try doing it for a year without losing motivation or your wrists going to shit (the latter is actually a bigger threat).
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Why "should' there be more opportunities for NA progamers to make a living off the game? Xeris said that there should be a community that fosters talent and allow them to easily win money. Why? To reward subpar players who can't compete at the International level?
It's like American weightlifting. I support it, I root for it, but American lifters are not good enough to be competitive internationally. They don't 'deserve' anything either. Earn it. Boxer earned it in Korea.
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8748 Posts
It's not because they didn't want to, it's because they couldn't catch up to the Koreans level of skill (most of the foreigners went pro due to being a foreigner and it was for advertising i.e. Draco / NonY / IdrA (reminder: they never won courage, and were given the license from the team, not earning them in a tournament setting) and the help of Daniel Lee)
actually all 3 of us were rising up in our inner team rankings. idra was rising up really slowly, but still rising. i was in about the 30th percentile of the B team on day one and about 80th percentile after just two months (two shitty months when i was still trying to adjust to the schedule and not getting its full benefit). we did round robin ranking tournaments more than once a week so these arent just guesses based on practice games. i literally improved my win percentage every ranking tournament i played. i was on track to get to proleague much faster than the average korean. i also talked to draco about his experiences in korea and he did similarly well. he was improving faster than average. his performance absolutely wasnt a problem
this isnt even about personal pride. what you are writing is flat out anti-foreigner propaganda. twisting the true stories, discouraging all non-koreans from ever trying to equalize. there are huge mental blocks preventing NA players from giving their best performances and the behavior and the opinions of the community aren't helping.
as for naruto, you say you'd practice 15 hours and then you list a bunch of examples of people who succeed with just part time efforts. maybe take a hint from your own post and from common sense and realize that practicing every waking moment isnt optimal, it isnt admirable, and it shouldnt be used as a test for whether or not a person has what it takes to be a progamer. that kind of shit will be discouraging too. there is a set of people that can compete just fine while taking 6 hours a day for recreation, exercise and relaxation.
to shew: being a progamer means becoming the best you can at the game. that's the best motivation you can have. it's the motivation you can have no matter what tournaments and prize pools are being thrown your way. if motivation wavers based on how many tournaments are coming up and how much prize money they have, then that's a fundamental mental problem. the only real concern here is whether you can get the financial support necessary to train and whether you have opportunities to prove yourself against better players. imo there are still enough NA players who have such support and there are still enough opportunities to compete. we just gotta perform better relative to the rest of the world.
fk it im going back on hiatus from the community. this place is toxic as hell. progamers gotta put themselves in an environment that gives them their best chance at winning. reading forums is a huge no-no.
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Hey Shew it's Toasty,
I think it's a lot of what NonY said and also a strive for you to do better. Think about it this way if there are tournaments every other weekend you don't have that time for training and prep that you normally would. Honestly that is probably what threw a lot of the Pro gamers down a couple skill levels in NA. You have 3-4 Major tournaments a year and you have to practice and kick ass to do well in them. Though you are already on the way to being noticed. you just have to work hard and you will get there.
I have played with ya even back when there were lans here in CA like every other day it was crazy. If you got the drive and the mental fortitude you will succeed and kick ass don't let yourself get down that is the road to failure!
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I completely agree with what Nony said, and furthermore it's silly to characterize foreigners as just wanting a handout. There's a difference between asking for a chance to prove yourself (as Shew was doing) and asking for free money.
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On July 05 2013 07:32 NonY wrote:Show nested quote + It's not because they didn't want to, it's because they couldn't catch up to the Koreans level of skill (most of the foreigners went pro due to being a foreigner and it was for advertising i.e. Draco / NonY / IdrA (reminder: they never won courage, and were given the license from the team, not earning them in a tournament setting) and the help of Daniel Lee) actually all 3 of us were rising up in our inner team rankings. idra was rising up really slowly, but still rising. i was in about the 30th percentile of the B team on day one and about 80th percentile after just two months (two shitty months when i was still trying to adjust to the schedule and not getting its full benefit). we did round robin ranking tournaments more than once a week so these arent just guesses based on practice games. i literally improved my win percentage every ranking tournament i played. i was on track to get to proleague much faster than the average korean. i also talked to draco about his experiences in korea and he did similarly well. he was improving faster than average. his performance absolutely wasnt a problem this isnt even about personal pride. what you are writing is flat out anti-foreigner propaganda. twisting the true stories, discouraging all non-koreans from ever trying to equalize. there are huge mental blocks preventing NA players from giving their best performances and the behavior and the opinions of the community aren't helping. as for naruto, you say you'd practice 15 hours and then you list a bunch of examples of people who succeed with just part time efforts. maybe take a hint from your own post and from common sense and realize that practicing every waking moment isnt optimal, it isnt admirable, and it shouldnt be used as a test for whether or not a person has what it takes to be a progamer. that kind of shit will be discouraging too. there is a set of people that can compete just fine while taking 6 hours a day for recreation, exercise and relaxation. to shew: being a progamer means becoming the best you can at the game. that's the best motivation you can have. it's the motivation you can have no matter what tournaments and prize pools are being thrown your way. if motivation wavers based on how many tournaments are coming up and how much prize money they have, then that's a fundamental mental problem. the only real concern here is whether you can get the financial support necessary to train and whether you have opportunities to prove yourself against better players. imo there are still enough NA players who have such support and there are still enough opportunities to compete. we just gotta perform better relative to the rest of the world. fk it im going back on hiatus from the community. this place is toxic as hell. progamers gotta put themselves in an environment that gives them their best chance at winning. reading forums is a huge no-no.
naruto is low-mid masters at best, just disregard him. http://nios.kr/sc2/us/1v1/hots/search/naruto/us-31503
gl
User was warned for this post
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Korea (South)11579 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2013 07:32 NonY wrote:Show nested quote + It's not because they didn't want to, it's because they couldn't catch up to the Koreans level of skill (most of the foreigners went pro due to being a foreigner and it was for advertising i.e. Draco / NonY / IdrA (reminder: they never won courage, and were given the license from the team, not earning them in a tournament setting) and the help of Daniel Lee) actually all 3 of us were rising up in our inner team rankings. idra was rising up really slowly, but still rising. i was in about the 30th percentile of the B team on day one and about 80th percentile after just two months (two shitty months when i was still trying to adjust to the schedule and not getting its full benefit). we did round robin ranking tournaments more than once a week so these arent just guesses based on practice games. i literally improved my win percentage every ranking tournament i played. i was on track to get to proleague much faster than the average korean. i also talked to draco about his experiences in korea and he did similarly well. he was improving faster than average. his performance absolutely wasnt a problem this isnt even about personal pride. what you are writing is flat out anti-foreigner propaganda. twisting the true stories, discouraging all non-koreans from ever trying to equalize. there are huge mental blocks preventing NA players from giving their best performances and the behavior and the opinions of the community aren't helping. as for naruto, you say you'd practice 15 hours and then you list a bunch of examples of people who succeed with just part time efforts. maybe take a hint from your own post and from common sense and realize that practicing every waking moment isnt optimal, it isnt admirable, and it shouldnt be used as a test for whether or not a person has what it takes to be a progamer. that kind of shit will be discouraging too. there is a set of people that can compete just fine while taking 6 hours a day for recreation, exercise and relaxation. to shew: being a progamer means becoming the best you can at the game. that's the best motivation you can have. it's the motivation you can have no matter what tournaments and prize pools are being thrown your way. if motivation wavers based on how many tournaments are coming up and how much prize money they have, then that's a fundamental mental problem. the only real concern here is whether you can get the financial support necessary to train and whether you have opportunities to prove yourself against better players. imo there are still enough NA players who have such support and there are still enough opportunities to compete. we just gotta perform better relative to the rest of the world. fk it im going back on hiatus from the community. this place is toxic as hell. progamers gotta put themselves in an environment that gives them their best chance at winning. reading forums is a huge no-no.
There is no one that is disregarding what any foreigner has done. Please don't misunderstand me, what you guys have achieved is nothing short of amazing. The three of you were "foreigners last hope". You have all gained skill that is nothing short of admirable. You are all amazing, and when I had met Idra in 2010, you shortly after, and Draco a few months ago I was starstruck to say the least. Ret as well (how did I ever forget him?!)
What all of you accomplished was amazing. And I have the most upmost respect for anyone, foreigner or Korean, who wants to take a shot at being a professional gamer. And I watched the forums intently during your courage matches, amazed at what you could do, and amazed at how well you preformed.
Despite all this, the coaches had to go out on a limb to pick you up and add you to the roster in the very beginning. They opted to add you despite top Korean amateurs. They had the Nal house, the [gm] house, and the many applications to join as a practice partner. All of whom had no language barrier, and many who were younger.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from taking the opportunity, and I respect everyone who does. When I first decided to move Korea I was hoping to join the Nal team house and play in Courage, hoping to follow your footsteps. I was unfortunate that the last courage ended just before I came. So I'm not saying it can't be done, in fact it's the opposite. There are many more opportunities now for foreigners, and in many regards more so than Koreans, to try to be pro.
Shew I apologize for derailing, and in many aspects, I am quite envious of your decision. I wish you the best of luck, and hope you accomplish everything you hope to.
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I re-read my post and I think what I wrote was a bit harsh, so I'll rephrase it and answer to your replies.
On July 05 2013 05:33 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 15:43 NarutO wrote:
Players like you are the reason the scene isn't growing and that you (we) are behind Koreans by a large margin. Do you really believe Korea is the land of honey and sugar? How many players do you think never make it past 'practice partner' or not even to that point? If you don't want to take the chance and/or the risks of being a progamer, simply don't do it.
If I could financially sustain myself with being a progamer, I would play everyday 15 hours a day. Even through ladder you can get a ton better and rise to a level that will easily get you money in tournaments. You also have monthly cups, you from NA can participate and take part/ladder in European tournaments (go4sc2, zotac, EnerJ etc) while also laddering on the superior Korean server with next to no latency depending on your region.
I have a full time job, do sports and enjoy freetime and when the season started and I decided I want to be active again I made about 500 games in two weeks. I will have two weeks off soon and I will bootcamp with grandmaster/high master allies and have set up schedule for the day, with sports, food + starcraft 2. Goal is 700 games (50 per day). I don't know what you expect. Its not easy to sustain yourself if you are not on a good or big team , have no team house but thats the chance you have to take. You can either live at home and do nothing for a year besides playing or you can take your chance and go study / have a job and play in your spare time.
Polt goes to school full time and still manages to beat down very good players at MLG. SeleCt comes back from inactivity and beats Koreans in the American qualifier, going further than any other American. You're scarily disconnected from reality. 15 hours a day? That's great that you can maintain that for 2 weeks, now try doing it for a year without losing motivation or your wrists going to shit (the latter is actually a bigger threat).
Every person / player is different. As NonY named, there are people that get a long with less training and there are people that need a good amount of training. While I believe NonY is not completely right on that matter as in a player that is very good with 6 hours of practice, he might be amazing with 10 hours of practice. While there is also the counterpart. If you overplay yourself, get frustrated and 'fog your vision' you will suffer and not gain anything from a lot of hours of practice. What kind of person/player you are is up to you to understand.
That being said, I think to build up the basics of being a progamer which would be understanding of the game (can be done without playing excessive amounts of hours) I think the automation of process (mechanics) cannot be done by simply watching replays, streams or looking into the game itself. Mechanics are basic execution of the game, and you learn and progress in that faster the more you do it. I don't believe NonY would argue that, would you?
While 15 hours of practice might be too much, as I said I think I was too harsh/exaggerated a bit, I think 12 hours is easily doable. At least for me. I said if I were progamer and could sustain myself, that means not going to work 12 hours essentially is easy to do. Personally I'd go for something like this:
9AM - 10AM | get up & have breakfast / read news if you like
10AM - 2PM | practice
2PM - 3PM | workout
3PM - 4PM | shower, lunch
4PM - 8PM | practice
8PM - 8:30PM | dinner
8:30PM - 0:30AM |practice
0:30AM - 1:30AM | relax
That is a tight schedule, but is has meals with enough time in it to also prepare them, it has sports which I think is a very good balance for a progamer and you will have enough sleep. Ofcourse you can argue any point "enough sleep" "sports" etc, but in the end, that is just a rough estimate.
About wrists, I personally don't think your wrists will go to shit, not even with 15 hours of practice if you can manage to do that as long as you have a balance due to sports. Few progamers actually have wrist problems, there are more that seem to either have none or its not public. With what I wrote I think NonY's reply is also handeled and I think he would agree to the things mentioned above, every individual is different and some need lesser training than others, but as a progamer you should have a set amount of training and mechanics are build by playing, not by learning from watching.
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To the guy that said I'm low-mid masters and people should disregard me, as you were cocky and dumb enough to make such a blatant statement, I'll answer in a cocky way that is usually not really my style, but I got more points on my server (EU) than your #1 masters in US. I am a lot higher in the ranking than you are and its beyond me how you think you can search for
naruto in the first place, on the wrong server and with me mentioning that I've 500 games and you list someone that has 100? Sorry to disappoint you.
Sorry to the OP, I didn't mean to disrespect you, I simply think that as -want to be progamer- you should show ambition and courage and not be simply discouraged by the fact that its hard to break into the scene. My suggestion would be play EU monthly / weekly cups, if you are good and win some or place high, you will be recognized. Also I'd suggest you to play on the Korean server if its possible for you, as even with less practice time the reward will be higher as the level of play there is overall better.
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It's all about money, and always will be. If there were enough people willing to pay (or at least watch and sit through ads) to see the "top" (being a bit generous here) NA players duke it out, then there would be tournaments for you. However, there simply isn't the demand there for that kind of content. The entire SC2 scene (globally) isn't big enough to support (financially) any sort of "development" leagues that feed into pro leagues (like baseball or something). Basically, because no one is willing to put up money to watch you play at your current level, you can't survive as a pro sc2 gamer.
I think a lot of people forget (or don't understand), what being a "pro" at any game is fundamentally about. It means there is enough of a following and appreciation of that particular game, that people are willing to pay (directly or indirectly) to see the best at that game compete. Only when a game/sport has reached a massive popularity level, is there enough money in the system for it to trickle down to supporting/developmental leagues (pro sports), that are about developing talent for the future. SC2 will never be a this level, trust me.
We can talk about how we wish it weren't this way, but the bottom line is that the popularity and the dollars simply aren't there. You can either compete at the level people are willing to pay to see (basically the absolute best, when it comes to sc2) or not. There really isn't any middle ground here, and it is because of the dollars.
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On July 06 2013 00:05 HardlyNever wrote:
I think a lot of people forget (or don't understand), what being a "pro" at any game is fundamentally about. It means there is enough of a following and appreciation of that particular game, that people are willing to pay (directly or indirectly) to see the best at that game compete. Only when a game/sport has reached a massive popularity level, is there enough money in the system for it to trickle down to supporting/developmental leagues (pro sports), that are about developing talent for the future. SC2 will never be a this level, trust me.
I think this is a great point. There's more than one way to interpret 'pro' as it pertains to SC2 and its different regions. Korean pros are undoubtedly the closest to what we would consider typical sporting figures. We've taken that image and tried to make it work in the West, ending up with a sort of frankenstein of a sustainable industry, where players are valued similarly for their crazy antics as they are for their ability to compete. The Western SC2 scene is very different from any traditional sporting scene in terms of fostering development, the significance of team branding (with some exceptions) and a general cohesive group of competitors.
I think NonY is correct in saying going 'pro' in this game, at this point in time, should be about aiming to be the best player you can be. If you're looking for job security this is probably not the industry to be looking into.
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Naruto, Shew has been coping with wrist issues for a while.
Good luck in the future Alex, you always know where to reach me if you ever need anything. Love ya bud.
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EPT
