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god damn ZvT is so frustrating and dull now.
zerg rarely even get a chance to go across the map, putting aggression back onto the terran because of all the drops and bio mine push coming in.
It's basically defend drops defend drops, then defend run by and eventually loses because the bio mine is extremely mobile, quick in base 3CC provides super good macro and can deny zerg's new bases with relative ease due to the production OR you win because you get a nice engagement off and a counter attack win
splitting the correct number of units to defend the drops is incredibly hard when a mine can kill off tonnes of lings.
Not to mention you almost never get to use any of the hots units
Even WoL ZvT were more fun imo, there were more varieties.
you could go DRG muta into hive style, you could go rush hive into broodlord infestors (but with poor upgrades), you could do muta into ultra like losira style.
Right now it falls back to the old MMA vs DRG era where zerg also had to play against a fast and safe in base quick 3rd CC and either it was stay 3 base vs 3 base until broodlord infestors or just roach ling baneling all in.
But at the least terran macro is not as powerful because tank bio is slower play and no medivac boost at least gives some more time for zerg. But with the medivac boost, mine/hellbat, zerg needs some gas units (either roach or baneling) until lair is done, which makes lair mid game even worse for zerg.
But all balance whining aside. It's a shame that while hots has improved ZvP (for now it appears to be so, lots of different strategies coming up), ZvT is right now dull.
Even watching pro playing is no where as interesting as what it was before anymore.
drops are now just for trading efficiently and multi tasking when previously it was also to contain army movement for tanks to get into position etc.
Push outs were more careful
baneling landmines were used more often
/rant finished.
Might be the first time I am considering to switch race completely. last time I tried terran for fun and pure bio is really quite exciting
 
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^^, I, as a Terran, like TvZ.
It`s quite hard. Rather they roach bane all in, from 2 or 3 bases, or they lay back and never attack. In that case they end up with 12 ultras or roach/hydra waves nonstop. In rare cases they go ling bling muta, take total mapcontroll and just counter attack and swarm, throwing army after army and remax faster than terranly possible.
Sometimes they build 4-6 queens early, which simply shots down every harrass option.
So you can go 3 CC early and die to roach bane, or you don`t, but end up vs a super passiv zerg and die. Widow mines seem super unreliable and they bloat up the supply. Good zergs just bait them with a few lings, and since I am only Innovation at night times, I just don`t manage to stim, split, focus fire, unburrow - burrow mines, rerally, macro, build supply, drop, and call down mules simultaniously. So sometimes a lucky mine shot wins an engagement, but that is not a satisfying way of winning.
I do 1/1/1s now - back to liberty...even though it was a vs protoss build there. The good thing, it simply kills roach bane all ins, and if it is vs a passiv zerg, you can expand while doing dmg with a nice straight push. I think Zerg has the Edge in the TvZ matchup, but it is defnitly fun from the Terran point of view.
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Hm I hate playing zvt, but I would go far from saying zvt as being dull. Zvt is extremely fun to watch, frustrating to play (as a zerg).
zvp is still a boring match up imo and zvt is a lot better in hots (entertainment wise) then it was in WoL. But playing it as zerg is incredibly frustrating, don't see a widow mine? bam you are going to lose lots of units. Right now the mu is very unforgiving for zerg players which is another frustration.
But yeah I feel your pain 
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On June 25 2013 10:13 ETisME wrote:
Right now it falls back to the old MMA vs DRG era where zerg also had to play against a fast and safe in base quick 3rd CC and either it was stay 3 base vs 3 base until broodlord infestors or just roach ling baneling all in.
But at the least terran macro is not as powerful because tank bio is slower play and no medivac boost at least gives some more time for zerg. But with the medivac boost, mine/hellbat, zerg needs some gas units (either roach or baneling) until lair is done, which makes lair mid game even worse for zerg.
But all balance whining aside. It's a shame that while hots has improved ZvP (for now it appears to be so, lots of different strategies coming up), ZvT is right now dull.
Even watching pro playing is no where as interesting as what it was before anymore.
drops are now just for trading efficiently and multi tasking when previously it was also to contain army movement for tanks to get into position etc.
Push outs were more careful
baneling landmines were used more often
/rant finished.
Might be the first time I am considering to switch race completely. last time I tried terran for fun and pure bio is really quite exciting
I'm kind of confused by some stuff here. ZvT pre-queenrange was almost universally acknowledged as the best matchup in the game by far O_o and ZvP still revolves around protoss players being abusive or dying horribly to unkillable zerg lategame unit compositions...
...but thing is, I actually am finding HotS ZvT to be kind of dull, myself. I used to play Zerg pre-queen patch, and while I wasn't very good, I enjoyed playing vs Terran more than anything else. People today say that, minus the hellbat fuckery, the matchup is looking quite similar to the 2011 / early 2012 glory days of WoL, yet...I just feel bored. I guess it's because there's so little variety in SC2 due to how the game is balanced; marine+mine all game long instead of marine+tank, whoopie.
I guess I have to do a better job at following tournaments. Usually, I stumble upon the link, find ZvZ, and then don't tab back in until the stream goes offline =/ oh well
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I think zvp got much more interesting because of viper swarmhosts kinda have their place. Even roach hydra becomes more viable with viper and there are several different builds like rushing ultra and queen push.
The non stop action in zvt on the other hand feels more reckless. I had more fun watching how different zerg style deals with that terran pre hive push. There were just more variety in wol tvz imo. I feel that zvt won't be any different next few months if nothing change because Zerg options to these bio mine pushes are really limited.
To above:
People crowded that as the best tvz era is because terran ad tonnes of all in styles and Zerg even getting the broodlord infestors can be beaten by the superior macro from terran.
There were lots of silly games like
Mass hellion run by (or just a simple run by could be game ending)
Hellion drop
Cloak banshee
2 port banshee
Marauder hellion all in
Mass ghost snipes
And so most zerg just roach baneling ling all in due to overlord still slow, ling scout not possible etc and it kils terran who goes quick 3rd cc or skipped tanks
I also think it's because of the mma vs Drg factor or because infestor broodlord were kinda stoppable
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Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_-
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I as a zerg think, that ZvT is much more stressful than in WoL which is a good thing it requires crisis management which really is the most exciting part about sc2 imo; also if you just use some static D and defend w/ reinforcements I think you can get across the map pretty well.
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On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_-
A lot easier to que drops then it is to defend them though ^^.
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On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_-
Kind of not hard when your medics units (which you have a lot of because its your natural composition) can also drop units AND have turbo speed....other races have to actually pay for the cost of a drop.
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On June 25 2013 17:48 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_- A lot easier to que drops then it is to defend them though ^^.
It's like fungal in WoL imo so easy to execute so hard to defend. but I only think it is that way w/ hellbat drops.
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On June 25 2013 18:11 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_- Kind of not hard when your medics units (which you have a lot of because its your natural composition) can also drop units AND have turbo speed....other races have to actually pay for the cost of a drop.
So? Zerg Overlords grant supply and can be upgraded to drop. If we use our medivacs to drop, we don't have them with our army and have less safety to pick up and leave if something goes wrong. Simply queing up drops also will never work once you hit a certain level so its not like send it and deal damage.
Its more like, keep a close eye on it and drop in clever locations while either pulling Zerg out of position first or pulling him out of position with drops. Also, Zergs need to learn what they need to actually stop a drop. Once 8 marines did land they are cost efficient, when the drop is spotted and you just send a few zerglings to follow the medivac, single-dropping marines from a medivac can be stopped by I don't know, 10 zerglings?
Also keep in mind that a drop with 8 marines already is 10 supply, 2 medivacs are 20 supply. Put a spore (more essential than spine) in the right spot, and it will either buy time, prevent a Terran drop route or deal significant damage to a medivac. You should be able to afford it, as you are usually ahead in bases and economy.
ZvT got harder, its very true, but I feel like most Zergs still see the end of WoL as balanced where they played good/better than Terran, while it was completely and utterly imbalanced with broodlord/infestor. Now they have to actually fight for their wins. Widowmines are strong, but they are also risky, if you are not masterful using them, might as well hit your own army more often.
Also, dull and no aggressive option is so wrong. Check out what TaeJa had to prepare against Snute to defend against his roach/bane style. Same style that HyuN also uses. Its basically impossible to stop without severe preperation. If you don't want Terran to be in your face all the time, I suggest that style. Roach/Hydra would also be possible which is very good against mines, not so much against tanks but there are plenty of options. So sick of people that never touched Terran at the higher levels calling "us" out as inferior players that win because we ABUSE the race. lol
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On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_-
Yea, I thought the same thing. So I went to play terran. A month later, I was back in mid master, having a blast.
Terran was much more fun to play than zerg was. I still think about switching to terran completely.
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Watching the meta ZvT is a lot like watching bullying. Terran just keeps pushing the Zerg around the entire game until the Zerg snaps and shove back.
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On June 25 2013 20:02 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_- Yea, I thought the same thing. So I went to play terran. A month later, I was back in mid master, having a blast. Terran was much more fun to play than zerg was. I still think about switching to terran completely.
Yeah... mid master... gratz. Thats the level we talk about when we say Terran is demanding as hell-_- You might enjoy Protoss even more if you are mid-master.
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On June 25 2013 18:46 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 18:11 GhostOwl wrote:On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_- Kind of not hard when your medics units (which you have a lot of because its your natural composition) can also drop units AND have turbo speed....other races have to actually pay for the cost of a drop. So? Zerg Overlords grant supply and can be upgraded to drop. If we use our medivacs to drop, we don't have them with our army and have less safety to pick up and leave if something goes wrong. Simply queing up drops also will never work once you hit a certain level so its not like send it and deal damage. Its more like, keep a close eye on it and drop in clever locations while either pulling Zerg out of position first or pulling him out of position with drops. Also, Zergs need to learn what they need to actually stop a drop. Once 8 marines did land they are cost efficient, when the drop is spotted and you just send a few zerglings to follow the medivac, single-dropping marines from a medivac can be stopped by I don't know, 10 zerglings?
Are you seriously comparing Zerg drop to Terran drop? Un-turbo'd medivacs make Overlord look like snails..imagine turbo'd medivacs. You conveniently left out the part that they also heal. If you use your medivacs to drop, you don't have them with your main army but drops are all investment for all races. Not just Terran. Thats why they're called drops. You take units that would been used for your main army to harrass an enemy back in their base. Overlords getting picked off might cause a supply block and production comes to a screaming halt. Warp Prism is only one or two, unless Protoss chooses to mass produce them for some reason. Terran medivacs are made for healing as well, so they're naturally made in large numbers. Thus, you can mass doom drop and drop them all over the place. Not to mention the turbo speedvac really helps save your drops so that you can do damage and still keep your units.
You can argue that somehow hellbats/widow mines are not OP, and we can take a long time to discuss why they are, and back&forth , but when we can discuss about drops, there is absolutely no question Terran has it the best. So stop your whining and delete this post I quoted below before you humiliate yourself further as biased
On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_-
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I think I play far higher level compared to you and you humilate yourself talking others into the believe Terran is overpowered or anyone posting here would lose their games due to balance issues.
And as you quoted me I will happily reverse ZvT here. Saying Terran is strong is correct, saying its easier or simply queing drops win you the game is bullshit. Deal with it
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I care more about the fun playing and watching the race.
Just look at the current TvZ, terran can go mech, bio tank, bio mine, bio hellbat etc with tonnes of different opening, reaper, hellbat drop or not etc.
It's not fun to watch/play the race when it has to be defensive for the whole game or doing some ling baneling roach "pressure" that is a huge commitment.
Winning or losing aside, it's boring to just keep stay on your side denying drops and runbys.
At least in WoL, there were ling/baneling run bys, muta harass, even burrow infestor harass.
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Really cannot say I find it boring. Its more action packed and fast paced than ever
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but the actions are only coming from terran side.
I watch a ton of zerg stream and honestly zerg has only ever staying on their side until they have a nice trade off and does a counter attack.
so many games where the zerg player just die without even doing a counter push and just get roll'd by the constant stream of units
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Zerg was reactionary in the match up to begin with. In WoL Zerg was so untouchable early that they had a very good head start and basically uncontested lategame so ofcourse they got more active. Right now they are a bit more defensive but this also depends on the style they choose. Hyun and snute for example are very aggressiv with their roach style. Some people use roach hydra etc.
It really isnt like zerg cannot move out and sit in fear. Its just about the metagame. Once they learn to handle Terran better they will be more active themselves agaon
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I agree ZvT really lacks depth, because there is not enough options for the zerg player.
I was wondering if swarm hosts are even remotely possible in ZvT, because I've seen like 0 in all pro games I've watched.
I think they can't be used because marines can kite them like there is no tomorrow and also they are not mobile enough vs medivac drops.
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On June 26 2013 01:16 Type|NarutO wrote:
Zerg was reactionary in the match up to begin with. In WoL Zerg was so untouchable early that they had a very good head start and basically uncontested lategame so ofcourse they got more active. Right now they are a bit more defensive but this also depends on the style they choose. Hyun and snute for example are very aggressiv with their roach style. Some people use roach hydra etc.
It really isnt like zerg cannot move out and sit in fear. Its just about the metagame. Once they learn to handle Terran better they will be more active themselves agaon
Reactionary style yes but not reactionary turtling style.
WoL had an era where muta ling banelng had equal actions from both side.
even infestor broodlord style has more zerg actions before the deathball is complete, at least we had ling counter attacks and sometimes some aggressive infestor ling move out or high ground fungal on 4th or 5th.
I personally don't think it's the metagame, I think zerg is being limited by its early unit available. even roach hydra style imo is probably only a temporary composition imo because terran hasn't got much experience against it yet.
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The problem is that ZvT has always been limited by 2units: infestors and marines. They fixed the one - but sadly that was a straight buff for the other.
It's a pity that blizzard is unable to balance TvZ without decreasing the amount of options due to obvious "best strategies".
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On June 25 2013 21:49 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 18:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On June 25 2013 18:11 GhostOwl wrote:On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_- Kind of not hard when your medics units (which you have a lot of because its your natural composition) can also drop units AND have turbo speed....other races have to actually pay for the cost of a drop. So? Zerg Overlords grant supply and can be upgraded to drop. If we use our medivacs to drop, we don't have them with our army and have less safety to pick up and leave if something goes wrong. Simply queing up drops also will never work once you hit a certain level so its not like send it and deal damage. Its more like, keep a close eye on it and drop in clever locations while either pulling Zerg out of position first or pulling him out of position with drops. Also, Zergs need to learn what they need to actually stop a drop. Once 8 marines did land they are cost efficient, when the drop is spotted and you just send a few zerglings to follow the medivac, single-dropping marines from a medivac can be stopped by I don't know, 10 zerglings? Are you seriously comparing Zerg drop to Terran drop? Un-turbo'd medivacs make Overlord look like snails..imagine turbo'd medivacs. You conveniently left out the part that they also heal. If you use your medivacs to drop, you don't have them with your main army but drops are all investment for all races. Not just Terran. Thats why they're called drops. You take units that would been used for your main army to harrass an enemy back in their base. Overlords getting picked off might cause a supply block and production comes to a screaming halt. Warp Prism is only one or two, unless Protoss chooses to mass produce them for some reason. Terran medivacs are made for healing as well, so they're naturally made in large numbers. Thus, you can mass doom drop and drop them all over the place. Not to mention the turbo speedvac really helps save your drops so that you can do damage and still keep your units. You can argue that somehow hellbats/widow mines are not OP, and we can take a long time to discuss why they are, and back&forth , but when we can discuss about drops, there is absolutely no question Terran has it the best. So stop your whining and delete this post I quoted below before you humiliate yourself further as biased Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_-
And you're conveniently leaving out the part where overlords do not take up supply, can morph into detection, can spew creep all over the place... etc. You can't compare one mechanic of a race to another's. That's what makes the game different and interesting. I'd love to be able to warp in marines/marauders with my medivacs, but you don't see terrans complaining about that.
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On June 26 2013 01:17 LastWish wrote:
I agree ZvT really lacks depth, because there is not enough options for the zerg player.
I was wondering if swarm hosts are even remotely possible in ZvT, because I've seen like 0 in all pro games I've watched.
I think they can't be used because marines can kite them like there is no tomorrow and also they are not mobile enough vs medivac drops.
Swarm hosts are only good vs mech because they can only be good in situations where the opponent has to sit in a corner and focus entirely against the swarm hosts. Bio can do things like drop erverywhere and attack from multiple angles and that really makes things tricky. That and you need a lot of them since if you don't have many swarm hsots a single stim can smash a wave of locusts and get on top of the swarm hosts.
As a terran right now I fucken LOOOOOOVE Tvz. And I don't even make hellbats all that much! Reapers and mines are great and I can play a really huge macro style that is very satisfying to play.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On June 26 2013 01:45 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 01:16 Type|NarutO wrote:
Zerg was reactionary in the match up to begin with. In WoL Zerg was so untouchable early that they had a very good head start and basically uncontested lategame so ofcourse they got more active. Right now they are a bit more defensive but this also depends on the style they choose. Hyun and snute for example are very aggressiv with their roach style. Some people use roach hydra etc.
It really isnt like zerg cannot move out and sit in fear. Its just about the metagame. Once they learn to handle Terran better they will be more active themselves agaon Reactionary style yes but not reactionary turtling style. WoL had an era where muta ling banelng had equal actions from both side. even infestor broodlord style has more zerg actions before the deathball is complete, at least we had ling counter attacks and sometimes some aggressive infestor ling move out or high ground fungal on 4th or 5th. I personally don't think it's the metagame, I think zerg is being limited by its early unit available. even roach hydra style imo is probably only a temporary composition imo because terran hasn't got much experience against it yet.
Ling Bane was pre-queen buff. Don't even make comparisons to wol zvt, that was ridiculously imbalanced. It wasn't exciting either. Zerg turtled on infestors, made broodlords and won. Every terran did the 2-2 marine tank pre-broodlord prayer.
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On June 26 2013 04:53 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 01:45 ETisME wrote:On June 26 2013 01:16 Type|NarutO wrote:
Zerg was reactionary in the match up to begin with. In WoL Zerg was so untouchable early that they had a very good head start and basically uncontested lategame so ofcourse they got more active. Right now they are a bit more defensive but this also depends on the style they choose. Hyun and snute for example are very aggressiv with their roach style. Some people use roach hydra etc.
It really isnt like zerg cannot move out and sit in fear. Its just about the metagame. Once they learn to handle Terran better they will be more active themselves agaon Reactionary style yes but not reactionary turtling style. WoL had an era where muta ling banelng had equal actions from both side. even infestor broodlord style has more zerg actions before the deathball is complete, at least we had ling counter attacks and sometimes some aggressive infestor ling move out or high ground fungal on 4th or 5th. I personally don't think it's the metagame, I think zerg is being limited by its early unit available. even roach hydra style imo is probably only a temporary composition imo because terran hasn't got much experience against it yet. Ling Bane was pre-queen buff. Don't even make comparisons to wol zvt, that was ridiculously imbalanced. It wasn't exciting either. Zerg turtled on infestors, made broodlords and won. Every terran did the 2-2 marine tank pre-broodlord prayer.
muta ling baneling was pre infestor change. then it started coming back to some zerg like DRG in late WoL time. then there were 2-2 ling baneling all in
imo, ridiculously imbalanced wol still had more actions from zerg just makes ZvT in hots even more boring.
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On June 25 2013 18:11 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 16:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
Yes, go ahead and play Terran. Maybe you will stop writing nonsense. I will be waiting here, awaiting tons of tears about how hard it actually is to play Terran. Somehow Zergs think our drops are magically happening around the map. -_- Kind of not hard when your medics units (which you have a lot of because its your natural composition) can also drop units AND have turbo speed....other races have to actually pay for the cost of a drop.
Yeah, like Zerg, which pays a one time fee for infinite drops, or are you talking about Protoss, with drop ships that can warp in units, move faster than our air units, and cost only minerals?
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On June 26 2013 05:08 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:53 T.O.P. wrote:On June 26 2013 01:45 ETisME wrote:On June 26 2013 01:16 Type|NarutO wrote:
Zerg was reactionary in the match up to begin with. In WoL Zerg was so untouchable early that they had a very good head start and basically uncontested lategame so ofcourse they got more active. Right now they are a bit more defensive but this also depends on the style they choose. Hyun and snute for example are very aggressiv with their roach style. Some people use roach hydra etc.
It really isnt like zerg cannot move out and sit in fear. Its just about the metagame. Once they learn to handle Terran better they will be more active themselves agaon Reactionary style yes but not reactionary turtling style. WoL had an era where muta ling banelng had equal actions from both side. even infestor broodlord style has more zerg actions before the deathball is complete, at least we had ling counter attacks and sometimes some aggressive infestor ling move out or high ground fungal on 4th or 5th. I personally don't think it's the metagame, I think zerg is being limited by its early unit available. even roach hydra style imo is probably only a temporary composition imo because terran hasn't got much experience against it yet. Ling Bane was pre-queen buff. Don't even make comparisons to wol zvt, that was ridiculously imbalanced. It wasn't exciting either. Zerg turtled on infestors, made broodlords and won. Every terran did the 2-2 marine tank pre-broodlord prayer. muta ling baneling was pre infestor change. then it started coming back to some zerg like DRG in late WoL time. then there were 2-2 ling baneling all in imo, ridiculously imbalanced wol still had more actions from zerg just makes ZvT in hots even more boring.
The cool part of WoL ZvT from the zerg side was that you could play zergish by switching up your compositions a lot in the mid- and lategame. This part got completely lost, because more than half of those styles relied on the infestor being able to counter mass marine.
Seriously, I bring this argument so much that it's the marine and not some hellbat or mine stuff that is crippling TvZ that I really feel the need to put some numbers behind this:
Marine dps/supply: 7/10.5 stimmed
Marauder dps/supply: 6.7/10 stimmed; 13.4/20 stimmed vs armored
--> for 25gas less marines do 1more damage per second than marauders vs armored; the only advantages marauders have over marines against singelfire armored targets are +1range, concussive shells and +15health.
Like, I'm getting seriously pissed when I see A/S level Terrans with a lot of marauders lose against roach/hydra in TvZ and then get to read how "roach/hydra is viable".
Sure, the roach has one natural armor which means an extra -16.7% damage for marines while only -5% for marauders. They still do nearly the same dps and the marines still do 67% more damage against the hydras for less money, more production etc. It's like you want 1marauder for every 8marines for fighting roaches.
And similar things can be said for swarm hosts play or just mixing in roaches, hydras or corruptors into a standard ling/bling/muta composition as well. Marines are just always an equal or better choice than marauders, reapers or ghosts and you can never force a break to the constant marinespam.
So let's look at those options, because simply put, those units are the only options zerg has once a Terran has completed it's core production/upgrades:
- The Baneling is pretty costinefficient against marines, but easily available. If you rely on it too heavily/too long in a macro game, you run dry.
- The Infestor is pretty costineffcient unless you support it with one of the other units from this list or you reach a ridiculous count of them with high energy.
- The Ultralisk is pretty good against marines because it has high base armor (3 with the upgrade, which means -50% damage from marines) and splash
- The Broodlord is pretty costinefficient (but highly supplyefficient) and can't force an engagement against bio. It has a niche role for turtle maps.
It usually all boils down to Ultralisk/Infestor being the only real option to fight efficiently against lategame mass barracks play - + Show Spoiler +and if someone tells me to fight inefficiently I'm not going to bother answering, because that person clearly does not understand the Starcraft2 economy system, not to mention that person has never seen a lategame income tab in XvT
And the only real way to get there is by going melee upgrades in the midgame, which requires banelings. And the only real way to play with banelings is to play mutalisks, or you will never kill a medivac. And that's about it for ZvT strategy if the Terran just goes macro play.
You go ling/bling/muta and wait for a window to punish the Terran or transition into ultralisks and infestors or rarely broodlords. Roach/Hydra works sometimes under certain circumstances - which for the most part are "the Terran did not open standard and does not react properly to it".
Though after all what I wrote, I also got to say that Terran does not have many options either to play in anyway an interesting game. Vipers are way too strong against Tanks and that basically shuts down most of the Terran non-marine options - unless you have 50mins to mine out a splitmap with 180army supply and 20OCs. (and even that I doubt is possible, once Zergs just start playing swarmhost/viper/static against it and the resources lost tab goes to 2:1)
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You are taking a way too simple look on TvZ , rendering options unviable or void that are clearly there. Also, you seem to completely fail to realize that marine/marauder is the to-go against early roach/hydra stages, as yes marines do have better DPS/price compared to marauders, but you will not have enough marines and medivacs to beat down roach/hydra in the earlier game-stages.
For lategame you want to rely on tanks/marine, but you will have to be good with it or you will also get rolled as you can make a good transition out of it. TvZ on the very highest level may look a bit frustrating, but its nowhere near "unplayable"
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On June 26 2013 18:53 Type|NarutO wrote:
You are taking a way too simple look on TvZ , rendering options unviable or void that are clearly there. Also, you seem to completely fail to realize that marine/marauder is the to-go against early roach/hydra stages, as yes marines do have better DPS/price compared to marauders, but you will not have enough marines and medivacs to beat down roach/hydra in the earlier game-stages.
For lategame you want to rely on tanks/marine, but you will have to be good with it or you will also get rolled as you can make a good transition out of it. TvZ on the very highest level may look a bit frustrating, but its nowhere near "unplayable"
I agree, early on you need a techlab anyways and it's better to produce a marauder than a marine from it. But it's not like you need to setup your production with a lot of techlabs from this point on - something that we see quite often and is just a mistake and doesn't make roach/hydra more viable, when/if it beats that.
Of course my look on TvZ is very simple. There is a lot of things that can happen in a game and maps play a crucial role as well. Also you can dominate a Terran with ling/bling/muta only as well in a macro game, without going for the real antimarine engagement compositions.
However, it's not like there is a huge amount of variety possible per se. Most of the variety only happens when the game goes weird (like overaggressive play that somehow ended up kind of even).
I think TvZ on the highest level looked exciting for some time early in HotS. But at this point it feels like all the Zergs only wait for a mistake or to get to the point when they can finally build ultralisks. But there is little we see that the zerg actively does to try and win the game.
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EPT
