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On May 30 2013 12:52 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 11:17 Myrddraal wrote:On May 30 2013 10:07 Scarecrow wrote:On May 29 2013 23:35 Daswollvieh wrote:
My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating. You make it very hard to not resort to name calling. That last sentence is just so over the top and putting argument in quotation marks is pretty cheap. You must have a very loose definition of baiting. Bringing up the success of Kespa over ESF isn't baiting. It's stating fact and long-time fans of Kespa teams feel pretty good about it, so they naturally post. The guys who feel bad because their heroes are getting trounced or because they don't see the distinction, get upset and call the other side baiters. There are definitely ESF fans, I've seen guys call Kespa faceless koreans and guys like Bittman with hardcore ESF sigs. You have this schoolyard theory about what's happening and you're trying to force it's simplicity on reality. This isn't a kid's playground and people don't enjoy hating as much as they enjoy success and posting about it (common to fans of any sport). Sure some Kespa fans are bad sports/winners but they aren't baiting most of the time, the vast majority are celebrating. They'd be perfectly happy with no response, and I don't see how it's either hating/baiting. Then you guys call them elitist baiting assholes and we have a conflict. I just don't understand the necessity for this distinction between fanbases, as HolyArrow pointed out it's entirely possible to actually cheer for teams and players without associating them with their governing bureaucracy. The problem is that people make assumptions about other posters based on this perceived division and start generalising about each other (going both ways of course) and it's really not a positive environment and it certainly isn't attractive to newcomers (from personal experience coming to TeamLiquid in early SC2 days). Well I assume you agree that us vs them is a natural part of sport/fanbases.
Well, there you have the problem. Not everybody agrees on "us vs them" as a necessary part of sports. I certainly don´t and neither do many others, but it´s the vocal minority that gets the attention by provoking and calling the answerers esf-fanboy, in order to incite this one-sided (hence imagined) conflict. In fact, you yourself use "fanboy" frequently, which is a derisive term.
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On May 30 2013 16:37 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 12:52 Scarecrow wrote:On May 30 2013 11:17 Myrddraal wrote:On May 30 2013 10:07 Scarecrow wrote:On May 29 2013 23:35 Daswollvieh wrote:
My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating. You make it very hard to not resort to name calling. That last sentence is just so over the top and putting argument in quotation marks is pretty cheap. You must have a very loose definition of baiting. Bringing up the success of Kespa over ESF isn't baiting. It's stating fact and long-time fans of Kespa teams feel pretty good about it, so they naturally post. The guys who feel bad because their heroes are getting trounced or because they don't see the distinction, get upset and call the other side baiters. There are definitely ESF fans, I've seen guys call Kespa faceless koreans and guys like Bittman with hardcore ESF sigs. You have this schoolyard theory about what's happening and you're trying to force it's simplicity on reality. This isn't a kid's playground and people don't enjoy hating as much as they enjoy success and posting about it (common to fans of any sport). Sure some Kespa fans are bad sports/winners but they aren't baiting most of the time, the vast majority are celebrating. They'd be perfectly happy with no response, and I don't see how it's either hating/baiting. Then you guys call them elitist baiting assholes and we have a conflict. I just don't understand the necessity for this distinction between fanbases, as HolyArrow pointed out it's entirely possible to actually cheer for teams and players without associating them with their governing bureaucracy. The problem is that people make assumptions about other posters based on this perceived division and start generalising about each other (going both ways of course) and it's really not a positive environment and it certainly isn't attractive to newcomers (from personal experience coming to TeamLiquid in early SC2 days). Well I assume you agree that us vs them is a natural part of sport/fanbases. Well, there you have the problem. Not everybody agrees on "us vs them" as a necessary part of sports. I certainly don´t and neither do many others, but it´s the vocal minority that gets the attention by provoking and calling the answerers esf-fanboy, in order to incite this one-sided (hence imagined) conflict. In fact, you yourself use "fanboy" frequently, which is a derisive term.
I refer to myself as a Flash fanboy. It's not derisive.
Sport is all about conflict and 'us vs them', rivalries are the lifeblood of almost any professional league. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it any less real/necessary in maintaining fanbases/interest.
I don't see how you can call it imagined when it's mentioned in player interviews/TL articles/previews etc. It might be getting a little old these days but it's definitely not imagined.
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On May 30 2013 17:19 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 16:37 Daswollvieh wrote:On May 30 2013 12:52 Scarecrow wrote:On May 30 2013 11:17 Myrddraal wrote:On May 30 2013 10:07 Scarecrow wrote:On May 29 2013 23:35 Daswollvieh wrote:
My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating. You make it very hard to not resort to name calling. That last sentence is just so over the top and putting argument in quotation marks is pretty cheap. You must have a very loose definition of baiting. Bringing up the success of Kespa over ESF isn't baiting. It's stating fact and long-time fans of Kespa teams feel pretty good about it, so they naturally post. The guys who feel bad because their heroes are getting trounced or because they don't see the distinction, get upset and call the other side baiters. There are definitely ESF fans, I've seen guys call Kespa faceless koreans and guys like Bittman with hardcore ESF sigs. You have this schoolyard theory about what's happening and you're trying to force it's simplicity on reality. This isn't a kid's playground and people don't enjoy hating as much as they enjoy success and posting about it (common to fans of any sport). Sure some Kespa fans are bad sports/winners but they aren't baiting most of the time, the vast majority are celebrating. They'd be perfectly happy with no response, and I don't see how it's either hating/baiting. Then you guys call them elitist baiting assholes and we have a conflict. I just don't understand the necessity for this distinction between fanbases, as HolyArrow pointed out it's entirely possible to actually cheer for teams and players without associating them with their governing bureaucracy. The problem is that people make assumptions about other posters based on this perceived division and start generalising about each other (going both ways of course) and it's really not a positive environment and it certainly isn't attractive to newcomers (from personal experience coming to TeamLiquid in early SC2 days). Well I assume you agree that us vs them is a natural part of sport/fanbases. Well, there you have the problem. Not everybody agrees on "us vs them" as a necessary part of sports. I certainly don´t and neither do many others, but it´s the vocal minority that gets the attention by provoking and calling the answerers esf-fanboy, in order to incite this one-sided (hence imagined) conflict. In fact, you yourself use "fanboy" frequently, which is a derisive term. I refer to myself as a Flash fanboy. It's not derisive.
You can refer to yourself however you like without it being derisive. Towards others however it absolutely is. It´s okay to call oneself an idiot, but derisive towards others. If you don´t want to be disdainful, why not say "fan"?
Sport is all about conflict and 'us vs them', rivalries are the lifeblood of almost any professional league. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it any less real/necessary in maintaining fanbases/interest.
To me sports is something positive, about competition and winning and cheering for, not against teams, teasing, or provoking. I don´t disagree that "us vs them" is a sad reality in sports, but why should it be taken as a role model. Hooligans are a reality in sports as well, but that doesn´t mean that Starcrafts needs more brawls for esports-passion. So, no I don´t believe that enmity and condescension makes anything better, and while it attracts a destructive kind of anti-fans, it alienates the positive, contributing people of a community. It´s a bad deal.
I don't see how you can call it imagined when it's mentioned in player interviews/TL articles/previews etc. It might be getting a little old these days but it's definitely not imagined.
I concur with opterown, who said it all.
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On May 30 2013 17:19 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 16:37 Daswollvieh wrote:On May 30 2013 12:52 Scarecrow wrote:On May 30 2013 11:17 Myrddraal wrote:On May 30 2013 10:07 Scarecrow wrote:On May 29 2013 23:35 Daswollvieh wrote:
My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating. You make it very hard to not resort to name calling. That last sentence is just so over the top and putting argument in quotation marks is pretty cheap. You must have a very loose definition of baiting. Bringing up the success of Kespa over ESF isn't baiting. It's stating fact and long-time fans of Kespa teams feel pretty good about it, so they naturally post. The guys who feel bad because their heroes are getting trounced or because they don't see the distinction, get upset and call the other side baiters. There are definitely ESF fans, I've seen guys call Kespa faceless koreans and guys like Bittman with hardcore ESF sigs. You have this schoolyard theory about what's happening and you're trying to force it's simplicity on reality. This isn't a kid's playground and people don't enjoy hating as much as they enjoy success and posting about it (common to fans of any sport). Sure some Kespa fans are bad sports/winners but they aren't baiting most of the time, the vast majority are celebrating. They'd be perfectly happy with no response, and I don't see how it's either hating/baiting. Then you guys call them elitist baiting assholes and we have a conflict. I just don't understand the necessity for this distinction between fanbases, as HolyArrow pointed out it's entirely possible to actually cheer for teams and players without associating them with their governing bureaucracy. The problem is that people make assumptions about other posters based on this perceived division and start generalising about each other (going both ways of course) and it's really not a positive environment and it certainly isn't attractive to newcomers (from personal experience coming to TeamLiquid in early SC2 days). Well I assume you agree that us vs them is a natural part of sport/fanbases. Well, there you have the problem. Not everybody agrees on "us vs them" as a necessary part of sports. I certainly don´t and neither do many others, but it´s the vocal minority that gets the attention by provoking and calling the answerers esf-fanboy, in order to incite this one-sided (hence imagined) conflict. In fact, you yourself use "fanboy" frequently, which is a derisive term. I refer to myself as a Flash fanboy. It's not derisive. Sport is all about conflict and 'us vs them', rivalries are the lifeblood of almost any professional league. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it any less real/necessary in maintaining fanbases/interest. I don't see how you can call it imagined when it's mentioned in player interviews/TL articles/previews etc. It might be getting a little old these days but it's definitely not imagined.
Once again, it's a rivalry that's entirely situated on the Kespa side. Players, TL articles and previews might talk about "Kespa vs ESF" but that's solely because of things like the Elephant Article, Kespa players moving on, and the endless threads about Kespa domination.
Once again, there is no "us vs them" when no one considers ESF to be "us". At best you have Kespa fanboys being obnoxious and people telling them off.
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On May 29 2013 22:00 HolyArrow wrote:
There is actually no point in talking to people like Scarecrow. He's a BW elitist so far gone that using logic doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried making pretty much every counterpoint there is to make to ridiculous posts like his, but their heads are so high in the clouds that it doesn't matter. I was originally going to pick apart his post like I've done to other BW elitists, but all of the stupid things about his posts here aren't even original (from how he conveniently ignores the fact that the Elephant article born from BW elitism quite literally started this whole ugly mess, to the ridiculous claim that a lot of the popular ESF players are "false idols", to the elitist butthurt that BW in general was getting "disrespected" by "ESF fanboys" and on and on) so it would be boring to just regurgitate all the counterpoints that I've made in the past.
logic doesnt work? youre not using logic. how are they not "false idols"? youve heard the arguments, which are pretty good. if you make even okayish counter i can further counter that.
On May 30 2013 15:29 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 13:53 opterown wrote:
you'll notice that it's mainly "kespa fans" who want to make "kespa-esf" a thing while most "esf fans" are happy to just watch sc2. Well it was a thing, now esf'ers are playing it down cause they're on the losing end. I guarantee if ESF still had parity or were ahead on results you'd see a lot more ESF supporters. It's natural to avoid a losing battle.
they never even were ahead on results though
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opterown
Australia54782 Posts
On May 31 2013 16:56 Veroleg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 22:00 HolyArrow wrote:
There is actually no point in talking to people like Scarecrow. He's a BW elitist so far gone that using logic doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried making pretty much every counterpoint there is to make to ridiculous posts like his, but their heads are so high in the clouds that it doesn't matter. I was originally going to pick apart his post like I've done to other BW elitists, but all of the stupid things about his posts here aren't even original (from how he conveniently ignores the fact that the Elephant article born from BW elitism quite literally started this whole ugly mess, to the ridiculous claim that a lot of the popular ESF players are "false idols", to the elitist butthurt that BW in general was getting "disrespected" by "ESF fanboys" and on and on) so it would be boring to just regurgitate all the counterpoints that I've made in the past. logic doesnt work? youre not using logic. how are they not "false idols"? youve heard the arguments, which are pretty good. if you make even okayish counter i can further counter that. Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 15:29 Scarecrow wrote:On May 30 2013 13:53 opterown wrote:
you'll notice that it's mainly "kespa fans" who want to make "kespa-esf" a thing while most "esf fans" are happy to just watch sc2. Well it was a thing, now esf'ers are playing it down cause they're on the losing end. I guarantee if ESF still had parity or were ahead on results you'd see a lot more ESF supporters. It's natural to avoid a losing battle. they never even were ahead on results though
lol your logic is flawed, how can they be "false idols" if people like boxer and yellow are not "false idols" either
and they were plenty ahead, you clearly have selective memory
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On June 01 2013 06:56 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 16:56 Veroleg wrote:On May 29 2013 22:00 HolyArrow wrote:
There is actually no point in talking to people like Scarecrow. He's a BW elitist so far gone that using logic doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried making pretty much every counterpoint there is to make to ridiculous posts like his, but their heads are so high in the clouds that it doesn't matter. I was originally going to pick apart his post like I've done to other BW elitists, but all of the stupid things about his posts here aren't even original (from how he conveniently ignores the fact that the Elephant article born from BW elitism quite literally started this whole ugly mess, to the ridiculous claim that a lot of the popular ESF players are "false idols", to the elitist butthurt that BW in general was getting "disrespected" by "ESF fanboys" and on and on) so it would be boring to just regurgitate all the counterpoints that I've made in the past. logic doesnt work? youre not using logic. how are they not "false idols"? youve heard the arguments, which are pretty good. if you make even okayish counter i can further counter that. On May 30 2013 15:29 Scarecrow wrote:On May 30 2013 13:53 opterown wrote:
you'll notice that it's mainly "kespa fans" who want to make "kespa-esf" a thing while most "esf fans" are happy to just watch sc2. Well it was a thing, now esf'ers are playing it down cause they're on the losing end. I guarantee if ESF still had parity or were ahead on results you'd see a lot more ESF supporters. It's natural to avoid a losing battle. they never even were ahead on results though lol your logic is flawed, how can they be "false idols" if people like boxer and yellow are not "false idols" either and they were plenty ahead, you clearly have selective memory
i thought it meant that they were just the select few who switched games, that the better players stayed, that the scene wasnt whole so that they could not be claimed to be the best
and i dont know what you have, selective non-memory maybe. you should look through the stats.
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I'm with the OP. I don't mind who you support, I'm just a fan. If you want to pick sides that's awesome. No need to be jerks to the opposition. Save your energy for cheering on your chosen one(s).
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EPT
