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The Smiths were a well-liked family in their neighborhood, for they were both fair-spoken and kind-hearted, and so they entertained guests quite frequently. Because they lived on a property that was as spacious as it was lovely, it was natural for whole families, even several at a time, to pay a visit. The grown-ups were often engaged in spirited conversation that lasted well after sunset, while the kids were roaming freely about the big house and garden indulged in their merry play. Yes, one could say that an evening with the Smiths was an all-around pleasant experience.
One day, the children were outside playing hide and seek, a boy introduced a new game to try out, cops and robbers: „It´s like hide and seek, only you´re on a team against the others.“ The children agreed and it was fun to play. Now, whenever they came over to the Smiths´ house, cops and robbers was their game of choice. Eagerly they developed new strategies, working together to catch the robbers even quicker. Oh, they had a most wonderful time.
One day the game came to a stop, when the boy who had introduced the game, refused to change his role: „I´m a cop, not a robber.“ The other kids said the game was more fun, if one took turns like they used to in hide and seek. But the boy refused and so they let him do as he liked for they believed it was but a whiff and soon to pass. As time went by, the boy remained as a cop and strongly opposed to playing a different game. The kids implored, but it was for naught. The more attention they gave to the boy´s antics, the more adamant he became in his defense, revering in the attention he so lacked in his life. His household was more troubled than others and the strains of adult life would not yield before his innocence. It stung him like a thorn, yet was elusive like an itch that lingers on the edge of feeling. Though too young to understand, the other kids were mindful of this pain and treated the boy with care as was their upbringing. In the end, what difference did it make, if he was a cop?
After a while the boy brought other friends of his along and they were greeted friendly. A day of running and laughing ahead, the mood was as high as the white clouds above. So they played their games of cops and robbers, only now the new arrivals refused to change their roles with some preferring to be cops and others to remain robbers. This led to dismay among the children and an argument arose over the sense of the game and the fun of it all. They believed they were all friends, then one child said: “Cops are stupid.” Its challenge was met with “No, robbers are stupid.” And so the playing ceased for the day, many-a-child sad for the loss.
One girl, who took this to heart came to her mother and sobbed: “Mommy, these kids are mean, they don´t want to play.” Her mother, in the middle of grown-up discussion impossible to grasp, said: “What´s wrong, honey?” “They say cops are stupid.” “I´m sure they don´t mean it. Now, go play.” And so the mother turned away as many did these days. The children tried to go on, but they were ill-equipped to discern and confront the root of this evil. And every time they played, it was not long before an argument arose and they increased in frequency and intensity. The culprits were few in number, but as they went unopposed they became much larger than themselves, establishing a firm grip on the group as a whole.
One time, some of the self-proclaimed cops ganged up on a lively boy who just happened to be a robber for this round. The pushed and shoved and called him names until he cried. They had nothing against this particular boy, in fact, the next time when he played as a cop they greeted him heartily. They complimented him on his quick running and strong tagging and told him that while robbers were stupid, he was not, for he was a cop. The boy felt all the more comfortable after the previous abuse and so he joined the ranks of the cops, adapting to their habit of despising robbers. When he was asked by a friend, with whom he walked home, why he stayed with those children, he was surprised to not have an answer. Embarrassed he kept to what he had heard: “It´s because robbers are stupid and cops are not. You wouldn´t understand. You´re not a cop.” His friend was equally surprised and asked: “Then what am I?” The answer was not given, for they arrived at home this moment, and so the question was quickly forgotten.
As time went by, the numbers of cops and robbers increased and the time of carefree play soon became but a distant memory. Still, these „angry kids“, as those who took sides were called, they were a minority. But they were so vocal and ever-present that they became unavoidable. When the children were at a loss as to how to restore peaceful coexistence, some resorted to exclusiveness to keep the fighting out. They were advised by their parents to play with every child as it has always been in this neighborhood. Some of the more mean-spirited agitators even took pleasure in complaining to parents about being so unfairly barred from play. No, the parents could not be bothered. Taking great pride in their liberal education they overlooked their children´s doings rather casually and all they saw from a distance was children´s play, one like the other.
The children, who simply wanted to play nice, suffered most from this ignorance. Their every space was invaded by the conflict between cops and robbers, forcing them to either chose sides and partake or to resign from playing altogether, a step especially the older and more mature ones took. This hastened the development in a most tragic way, for reason and humility could no longer set an example against ignorance and spite. Soon, all the playgrounds and gardens were divided, even though there was room aplenty. How quaint, when one considers the nature of struggle, it being bound towards an end, be it through rise or decline. But there was no end to this struggle, where both ranks were joined in equal numbers, without one having even a claim of a superior argument over the other or any form of truth underlying their enmity. It was a conflict of mere opposition grounded on the inner rage of few, who spilled it onto others gleefully and negligent, as if it was to soothe their pains.
While children can naturally shift in and out of play, most lose this ability along the path to adulthood, some even before. There comes a point, where one must recognize the severity of life and it is not for children to do so. When little Bonnie, a rather young and playful robber with little capacity for condescension, was chased through her door and into her home, it was a most startling experience for her parents, who were used to such brash behavior only within the loose context of a party. When confronted with their insolence, the chasing “cops” were robbed immediately of their sense and purpose. Due to the abruptness with which the playing was ended they became conscious of their doing and quite ashamed of it, at that. But it did not last long, for soon they returned among their kind and remained unquestioned.
Eventually, many children lost their way and could not tell play from life anymore. Many started to think exclusively within the borders of their faction and would not recognize any authority outside that group, be it reason, love, or punishment. It was because all these things seemed to come from the outside, a world beyond “cops vs robbers”, which made no sense to one who only knew these rules. They could not be reached.
The party at the Smith´s house was supposed to be grand, but it was spoiled terribly. The children, who came along with their parents did not play peacefully as they used to. They did not hide and chase and scream with joy. Their faces were serious and their bearing relentless. The cops fought the robbers and when a robber was cornered right in the middle of a grown-up discussion, the game was to end, only it didn´t. The children shouted at and shoved each other and the parents were aghast when their rebuke was only met with ignorance. Even when taken aside some children refused to cooperate. So well had they learned their lessons of enmity that they said: “We don´t listen to robbers, we only listen to cops.” “Well, but I am neither.”, said a concerned mother. “No, you must be one or the other. There´s only cops and robbers and they fight each other.” “Why?” “Because, well, because robbers are stupid.”
The playing ended thereafter, but not for everyone. Some children, especially the less resilient or more disturbed ones never outgrew their dependence on groups. In their insecure worlds, they longed for safety and purpose, which they were unable to provide for themselves. They could not say who they were or what they liked. Only who and what they despised. For them it was a great relief to find that there were many like themselves, filled with rage and shame. And like before, they would not unite in an effort to overcome their insecurity, but oppose each other, divide whatever they were drawn towards into two sides, pick one and then loathe the other. They so desperately needed someone to be wrong, in order to feel good abusing them, inflicting and thus somewhat articulating their own pains.
These “angry kids”, deep down, are still aware they are but children and thus self-conscious in the presence of mature beings. But when they flock together in groups large enough to outscream a voice of reason, then truly they are lost, for anyone no matter how reasonable and respectable, who feels forced to speak out against their inappropriate demeanor thereby acknowledges their power over him, the power of the loud over the silent, of the obnoxious over the considerate, of the violent over the peaceful. And power is the thing they lust for, powerless creatures as they are. Hopefully they will find to themselves and emancipate from definition through mere affiliation and opposition. Until then, they have to be shown their errors, carefully, in order to avoid empowerment, but consequently, so there is no mistake about their misbehavior. If not, then you might find yourself unable to have a reasonable conversation with a reasonable person over the noise of mad ravings you did not bother with before.
TLDR: + Show Spoiler +I find this kespa vs esf nonsense quite annoying. I know, the point of it is to be annyoing, lulz, but seriously, I enjoy watching Starcraft a lot, but I have to control myself more and more not spew poison back. For me LRs are part of the enjoyment of watching Starcraft. It´s like watching a game with friends. Only now, there is this adolescent dick on my couch, who constantly mutters abuse of some sort and when called on his bullshit, tries to force me into his childish "us against them" worldview of his. I see the argument of "cheering for/against teams" and "it´s all in good fun", but it only applies to a degree, sadly one that is hard to pinpoint precisely. I mean, I just want to watch a game, without being caught in between angry kids throwing feces at each other.
I am disappointed that this has not been moderated yet, as other similar issues have been adressed much quicker, like balance whine, caster bashing, hell, even the Stephano USAUSA shit.
What do you think?
 
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A most eloquent way of describing the discussion .. I myself do like the Kespa vs eSF 'nonsense' + Show Spoiler +I guess I'm on of the kids who doesn't like to stick to one side
'Tis an important warning though, play nice kids!
+ Show Spoiler +
Edit: Although I usually stay away from LRs, twitch chat is just as bad :D
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The point of it isn't to be annoying. Cheering Kespa!!!111 is just as legitimate as going BISU <3 or JANGBANG!!! I prefer to support the Kespa players i've been watching for years and see a lot of the ESF'ers as false idols who capitalized on the period before the switch. Now the balance of power is shifting and you find it annoying that people talk about it? It's a major storyline and it's natural people want to bring it up. I don't see how you can find people cheering for Kespa/discussing their dominance that annoying unless you're an ESF fanboy.
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I just don't understand this game.
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On May 23 2013 00:28 Scarecrow wrote:
The point of it isn't to be annoying. Cheering Kespa!!!111 is just as legitimate as going BISU <3 or JANGBANG!!! I prefer to support the Kespa players i've been watching for years and see a lot of the ESF'ers as false idols who capitalized on the period before the switch. Now the balance of power is shifting and you find it annoying that people talk about it? It's a major storyline and it's natural people want to bring it up. I don't see how you can find people cheering for Kespa/discussing their dominance that annoying unless you're an ESF fanboy.
You have to understand that not everybody wishes to be part of nor be subjected to quarrel between "esf and kespa fanboys". When I watch a game of football, I like to be involved as well, in cheering, complaining, but not in hooligans abusing and fighting each other. Granted, it is an extreme example, but it shares a quality, namely that of conflict. And not a conflict with a real basis, but a made-up one, just for the sake of stirring up shit.
The fact that you say anyone who dislikes this "kespa cheering" must be an "esf fanboy" kind of proves this point, as you don´t admit critique from outside that imaginary quarrel.
It wouldn´t be half as if it wasn´t so artificial. At some point "esf vs kespa" was proclaimed and some people eagerly jumped on the opportunity to take opposing sides and battle it out, like children taking turns laughing at each other. I know, it is one of the sadder parts of human nature, the need to form groups and declare outsiders enemies. I mean, I get the tradition of rallying behind your nation for international competitions, where your team may be different in language, culture, and thus somewhat representative of yourself. But in this case, really? There are Korean pro-gamers, playing for similar teams, living in similar team-houses, playing the same races on the same ladder. There is no difference. People seem to struggle so hard to somehow discriminate in order to create an enemy to point at, it is ridiculous.
There was the BW vs SC2 rivalry before, silly as well, but at least it had some grounds on which to argue because there were different games. Now that everybody is playing SC2 on the same ladder, cheering for a organizational body that has nothing to do with the actual games, only with the bureaucracy behind it, is just so far removed from reality that, yes, I see it as means to oppose and raise conflict. And for me, this mean-spirited approach drags the enjoyment of LR threads, the cheering for and against actual teams and players (and not, you know, bureaucrats), down to the level of name-calling on high-school yards.
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On May 23 2013 00:28 Scarecrow wrote:
The point of it isn't to be annoying. Cheering Kespa!!!111 is just as legitimate as going BISU <3 or JANGBANG!!! I prefer to support the Kespa players i've been watching for years and see a lot of the ESF'ers as false idols who capitalized on the period before the switch. Now the balance of power is shifting and you find it annoying that people talk about it? It's a major storyline and it's natural people want to bring it up. I don't see how you can find people cheering for Kespa/discussing their dominance that annoying unless you're an ESF fanboy.
People may not intend to be annoying but that doesn't mean it isn't annoying. Look at balance whining. I doubt it is meant to be annoying but it can be. What I find annoying about the kespa > esf stuff is posts like;
On May 23 2013 15:55 chisuri wrote:
Symbol was so lucky that he had to face only 1 KESPA player on his way to this match. Both of his 2 groups in the group stage had only one KESPA player each. Symbol had to play (and won, I will grant him that) against Soo only once. He should have been eliminated out of this tournament right in the first group stage if that group had had 2 KESPA players. Oh well unforunately for him there are so much ESF players left in the tournament to face him until now. The Ro4 has 3 KESPA so he inevitably has to play one. And his road will end here. Next season the GSL will have more than around 70% KESPA (so far). He will, hopefully, be put into his place along side with his lucky (not anymore) ESF friends. If the groups don't put too much KESPA players together I predict a full KESPA Ro16 (2nd group stage) next season. At least this time ESF will have 2 candidates out of 6 going to WCS, so lucky for them. I am still bitter that Roro had to play Parting. At least they should have done the double-elimination group style to decide the 5-6th placement. In that case, there would be 5 KESPA in top 6 without a doubt.
(Taken from the preview thread for Innovation vs Symbol match).
Claiming that kespa players are so much better that only results against kespa players matter and that symbol doesn't deserve to be in the semi-finals because he only beat one kespa player. This is the kind of stuff I find annoying. Supporting kespa is one thing, dismissing all esf players is another. I found this example particularly annoying since Symbol made the final last season after beating Innovation in the Ro8, so saying he doesn't deserve to be in a semi-final against Innovation seems really weird to me.
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On May 23 2013 18:05 Daswollvieh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 00:28 Scarecrow wrote:
The point of it isn't to be annoying. Cheering Kespa!!!111 is just as legitimate as going BISU <3 or JANGBANG!!! I prefer to support the Kespa players i've been watching for years and see a lot of the ESF'ers as false idols who capitalized on the period before the switch. Now the balance of power is shifting and you find it annoying that people talk about it? It's a major storyline and it's natural people want to bring it up. I don't see how you can find people cheering for Kespa/discussing their dominance that annoying unless you're an ESF fanboy. And not a conflict with a real basis, but a made-up one, just for the sake of stirring up shit.
If you think it's an imaginary conflict then we can't even enter into a discussion. It's easy to find something annoying when you don't even bother to understand it. When 'Kespa' fans started watching their heroes in SC2 they had to put up with legions of ESF fanboys predicting EG-TL domination of proleague, saying Flash is bad at TvT, that Fantasy can't macro, that Kespa would get stomped in the first OSL and that skill wouldn't carry over between different games (it clearly does). Not to mention the constant fails in predictions of who would make it out of groups because of ESF'ers overhyped name value. It's far better now but early on being a fan of Kespa players involved putting up with a ton of ignorance and being constantly underrated.
Just because they're Korean doesn't make them all the same. The Kespa players/teams have a rich legacy and switched far later than their ESF counterparts, making for a conflict between the ESF B-teamers/amateurs/MVP and the Kespa A-teamers. You just call it stirring up shit because you don't like what it says about ESF pros (e.g. Zergbong/Nestea) but there is a definite distinction/conflict between the two groups. The idea that your idols are not quite as amazing at RTS as you thought is hard to accept. So you make the cop out that the differences are made-up and the sides are equal level. To me that's more imaginary than anything else being said. Looking at Code S now at least half of the world's best RTS talent wasn't even playing SC2 for most of WoL and ESF will be lucky to ever win another GSL.
N.B people aren't cheering for Kespa the official body, they're cheering for the teams, history and players behind it. Kespa's simply the most effective label.
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opterown
Australia54747 Posts
On May 23 2013 00:28 Scarecrow wrote:
The point of it isn't to be annoying. Cheering Kespa!!!111 is just as legitimate as going BISU <3 or JANGBANG!!! I prefer to support the Kespa players i've been watching for years and see a lot of the ESF'ers as false idols who capitalized on the period before the switch. Now the balance of power is shifting and you find it annoying that people talk about it? It's a major storyline and it's natural people want to bring it up. I don't see how you can find people cheering for Kespa/discussing their dominance that annoying unless you're an ESF fanboy.
people don't call out "KESPAA" posts but they call out the stupid baiting posts. discussion is fine and dandy but there's often a whole bunch of crap that baiters post. people shouldn't reply, i just like to make a point of doing so and pointing out how stupid such posts are
it's annoying because it is, kinda like caster bashing. you don't have to be a fan of the caster to think caster bashing is stupid.
On May 23 2013 22:53 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 18:05 Daswollvieh wrote:On May 23 2013 00:28 Scarecrow wrote:
The point of it isn't to be annoying. Cheering Kespa!!!111 is just as legitimate as going BISU <3 or JANGBANG!!! I prefer to support the Kespa players i've been watching for years and see a lot of the ESF'ers as false idols who capitalized on the period before the switch. Now the balance of power is shifting and you find it annoying that people talk about it? It's a major storyline and it's natural people want to bring it up. I don't see how you can find people cheering for Kespa/discussing their dominance that annoying unless you're an ESF fanboy. And not a conflict with a real basis, but a made-up one, just for the sake of stirring up shit. If you think it's an imaginary conflict then we can't even enter into a discussion. It's easy to find something annoying when you don't even bother to understand it. When 'Kespa' fans started watching their heroes in SC2 they had to put up with legions of ESF fanboys predicting EG-TL domination of proleague, saying Flash is bad at TvT, that Fantasy can't macro, that Kespa would get stomped in the first OSL and that skill wouldn't carry over between different games (it clearly does). Not to mention the constant fails in predictions of who would make it out of groups because of ESF'ers overhyped name value. It's far better now but early on being a fan of Kespa players involved putting up with a ton of ignorance and being constantly underrated. Just because they're Korean doesn't make them all the same. The Kespa players/teams have a rich legacy and switched far later than their ESF counterparts, making for a conflict between the ESF B-teamers/amateurs/MVP and the Kespa A-teamers. You just call it stirring up shit because you don't like what it says about ESF pros (e.g. Zergbong/Nestea) but there is a definite distinction/conflict between the two groups. The idea that your idols are not quite as amazing at RTS as you thought is hard to accept. So you make the cop out that the differences are made-up and the sides are equal level. To me that's more imaginary than anything else being said. Looking at Code S now at least half of the world's best RTS talent wasn't even playing SC2 for most of WoL and ESF will be lucky to ever win another GSL. N.B people aren't cheering for Kespa the official body, they're cheering for the teams, history and players behind it. Kespa's simply the most effective label.
and this is going to turn into a circle of "he said she said first"
if you're so butthurt about people cheering for ESF then you shouldn't call out people who are butthurt the other way.
don't forget the elephant article which shat all over the esf pros.
skill does not necessarily transfer over, the best BW pros are not the best SC2 pros. i personally believe it's work ethic and infrastructure, not some genetic basis that makes kespa players better than esf players.
and you definitely sound like an elitist in this post, and few people like that.
ps sorry for necro i just noticed the post date
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There is actually no point in talking to people like Scarecrow. He's a BW elitist so far gone that using logic doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried making pretty much every counterpoint there is to make to ridiculous posts like his, but their heads are so high in the clouds that it doesn't matter. I was originally going to pick apart his post like I've done to other BW elitists, but all of the stupid things about his posts here aren't even original (from how he conveniently ignores the fact that the Elephant article born from BW elitism quite literally started this whole ugly mess, to the ridiculous claim that a lot of the popular ESF players are "false idols", to the elitist butthurt that BW in general was getting "disrespected" by "ESF fanboys" and on and on) so it would be boring to just regurgitate all the counterpoints that I've made in the past.
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On May 29 2013 22:00 HolyArrow wrote:
There is actually no point in talking to people like Scarecrow. He's a BW elitist so far gone that using logic doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried making pretty much every counterpoint there is to make to ridiculous posts like his, but their heads are so high in the clouds that it doesn't matter. I was originally going to pick apart his post like I've done to other BW elitists, but all of the stupid things about his posts here aren't even original (from how he conveniently ignores the fact that the Elephant article born from BW elitism quite literally started this whole ugly mess, to the ridiculous claim that a lot of the popular ESF players are "false idols", to the elitist butthurt that BW in general was getting "disrespected" by "ESF fanboys" and on and on) so it would be boring to just regurgitate all the counterpoints that I've made in the past.
It's far easier to just discount the other side than engage in discussion. The OP called the conflict imaginary and I was responding to that. Now you respond by saying I don't use logic. It's funny how I get called obnoxious/ridiculous/stupid/elitist/asshole and illogical by ESF fanboys with very little argument in support of it. Sure you can discount some of the LR trolls but you can actually respond to mine in a reasonable manner rather than getting all upset (going on the name-calling you must be). I admit I'm biased towards Kespa, you're clearly biased in the other direction though I doubt you'd admit to it. Note how in my post I didn't abuse anyone and was responding directly to the OP's viewpoint. He even asked, "what do you think?"
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On May 29 2013 22:32 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 22:00 HolyArrow wrote:
There is actually no point in talking to people like Scarecrow. He's a BW elitist so far gone that using logic doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried making pretty much every counterpoint there is to make to ridiculous posts like his, but their heads are so high in the clouds that it doesn't matter. I was originally going to pick apart his post like I've done to other BW elitists, but all of the stupid things about his posts here aren't even original (from how he conveniently ignores the fact that the Elephant article born from BW elitism quite literally started this whole ugly mess, to the ridiculous claim that a lot of the popular ESF players are "false idols", to the elitist butthurt that BW in general was getting "disrespected" by "ESF fanboys" and on and on) so it would be boring to just regurgitate all the counterpoints that I've made in the past. It's far easier to just discount the other side than engage in discussion. The OP called the conflict imaginary and I was responding to that. Now you respond by saying I don't use logic. It's funny how I get called obnoxious/ridiculous/stupid/elitist and illogical by ESF fanboys with very little argument in support of it. Sure you can discount some of the LR trolls but you can actually respond to mine in a reasonable manner rather than getting all upset. I admit I'm biased towards Kespa, you're clearly biased in the other direction though I doubt you'd admit to it. Note how in my post I didn't abuse anyone and was responding directly to the OP's viewpoint. He even asked, "what do you think?"
I'm not even upset. All I'm saying is that I've seen posts virtually identical to yours coming from other BW elitists, and when I responded to them trying to actually reason with them and make counterpoints, it went nowhere because their elitism simply blinded them to every point I was trying to make. Thus, what's the point of trying to expend the same effort here with you?
And as for me being biased in the same direction, I've explicitly claimed to be fans of various Kespa teams and players. SKT1 and Samsung Khan. Rain, Fantasy, Jangbi, Bisu, Stork to name some. I'm a Protoss player so I guess a lot of that is to be expected. I actually think Innovation is pretty awesome too, and I'd rather he be the top Terran on the scene instead of MVP, MKP, or Flash.
I guess if it makes you feel better to think that I'm as biased as you, then go right ahead thinking that, even if you're definitely wrong in reality. The main thing you fail to realize is that most people that you think are "ESF fanboys" are actually just fans of SC2, and thus are fans of both ESF players and Kespa players. Most people who take issue with Kespa fanboys gloating aren't annoyed because Kespa players are winning. They're annoyed because you're being elitist assholes.
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My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating.
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On May 29 2013 23:35 Daswollvieh wrote:
My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating.
You make it very hard to not resort to name calling. That last sentence is just so over the top and putting argument in quotation marks is pretty cheap. You must have a very loose definition of baiting. Bringing up the success of Kespa over ESF isn't baiting. It's stating fact and long-time fans of Kespa teams feel pretty good about it, so they naturally post. The guys who feel bad because their heroes are getting trounced or because they don't see the distinction, get upset and call the other side baiters. There are definitely ESF fans, I've seen guys call Kespa faceless koreans and guys like Bittman with hardcore ESF sigs. Even just looking at the preview thread today you see stuff like this:
On May 30 2013 04:35 Cricketer12 wrote:
MKP First Hurricane TRUE Bang,
because I believe in esF
Clearly an esF fanboy (which isn't a bad thing but contrary to what you believe, they do exist), they're just having a tough time atm and are not as vocal as they used to be.
You have this schoolyard theory about what's happening and you're trying to force it's simplicity on reality. This isn't a kid's playground and people don't enjoy hating as much as they enjoy success and posting about it (common to fans of any sport). Sure some Kespa fans are bad sports/winners but they aren't baiting most of the time, the vast majority are celebrating. They'd be perfectly happy with no response, and I don't see how it's either hating/baiting. Then you guys call them elitist baiting assholes and we have a conflict.
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On May 30 2013 10:07 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:35 Daswollvieh wrote:
My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating. You make it very hard to not resort to name calling. That last sentence is just so over the top and putting argument in quotation marks is pretty cheap. You must have a very loose definition of baiting. Bringing up the success of Kespa over ESF isn't baiting. It's stating fact and long-time fans of Kespa teams feel pretty good about it, so they naturally post. The guys who feel bad because their heroes are getting trounced or because they don't see the distinction, get upset and call the other side baiters. There are definitely ESF fans, I've seen guys call Kespa faceless koreans and guys like Bittman with hardcore ESF sigs. You have this schoolyard theory about what's happening and you're trying to force it's simplicity on reality. This isn't a kid's playground and people don't enjoy hating as much as they enjoy success and posting about it (common to fans of any sport). Sure some Kespa fans are bad sports/winners but they aren't baiting most of the time, the vast majority are celebrating. They'd be perfectly happy with no response, and I don't see how it's either hating/baiting. Then you guys call them elitist baiting assholes and we have a conflict.
Celebrating success of Kespa is not hating/ baiting, but it is if it's shitting on ESF in the process. You can bring up Kespa successes without gloating about ESF performance because as soon as you do it changes the context from "we are doing great" to "we are doing better than you" and brings in the Us vs Them mentality. The point that Daswollvieh is trying to make is it's this shitty "us and them" mentality that you can't seem to shake which ruins LR's. You are clearly a massive proponent of this kind of mentality because in almost every post on this subject you point at the "ESF fans" how they are just upset that their teams aren't doing so well. I just don't understand the necessity for this distinction between fanbases, as HolyArrow pointed out it's entirely possible to actually cheer for teams and players without associating them with their governing bureaucracy. The problem is that people make assumptions about other posters based on this perceived division and start generalising about each other (going both ways of course) and it's really not a positive environment and it certainly isn't attractive to newcomers (from personal experience coming to TeamLiquid in early SC2 days).
As for the "don't respond to them" argument, there are always going to be shitposters on either side of any argument, so why not just avoid the whole mess altogether? You say you are just stating facts, but people who were saying "BW is dead" towards the end of the Brood War era could have claimed the same, it doesn't change the fact that it's an unnecessary and dickish thing to do.
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On May 30 2013 11:17 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 10:07 Scarecrow wrote:On May 29 2013 23:35 Daswollvieh wrote:
My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating. You make it very hard to not resort to name calling. That last sentence is just so over the top and putting argument in quotation marks is pretty cheap. You must have a very loose definition of baiting. Bringing up the success of Kespa over ESF isn't baiting. It's stating fact and long-time fans of Kespa teams feel pretty good about it, so they naturally post. The guys who feel bad because their heroes are getting trounced or because they don't see the distinction, get upset and call the other side baiters. There are definitely ESF fans, I've seen guys call Kespa faceless koreans and guys like Bittman with hardcore ESF sigs. You have this schoolyard theory about what's happening and you're trying to force it's simplicity on reality. This isn't a kid's playground and people don't enjoy hating as much as they enjoy success and posting about it (common to fans of any sport). Sure some Kespa fans are bad sports/winners but they aren't baiting most of the time, the vast majority are celebrating. They'd be perfectly happy with no response, and I don't see how it's either hating/baiting. Then you guys call them elitist baiting assholes and we have a conflict. I just don't understand the necessity for this distinction between fanbases, as HolyArrow pointed out it's entirely possible to actually cheer for teams and players without associating them with their governing bureaucracy. The problem is that people make assumptions about other posters based on this perceived division and start generalising about each other (going both ways of course) and it's really not a positive environment and it certainly isn't attractive to newcomers (from personal experience coming to TeamLiquid in early SC2 days).
Well I assume you agree that us vs them is a natural part of sport/fanbases. Now we simply disagree on whether Kespa (BW legends) vs ESF (WoL stars) is a legitimate thing to get passionate about. Also, Kespa is just the most convenient term to use for BW players that switched later (and less inflammatory than elephants). It's not about the governing beauracracy. The fans that were following Kespa players prior and during the switch are often less involved/interested in the ESF side and there are many fans that feel more strongly about the ESF side, full of players they've supported for the last 2+ years. It's not a necessary distinction but it's naturally happened due to the distinct fanbases, both of which feel their players are amazing and admittedly there is a lot of crossover these days as proleague gains traction. I admire some ESF players but in general I prefer the players I've spent longer following. An ESF fanboy is one who feels the same about his own set of WoL GSL players/teams that drew him into the scene. It's just semantics to suggest it's fine to support players/teams but not larger organisations. If enough people from both sides perceive a division then a division exists. People support/follow the English Premier League or maybe La Liga. NBA, Euroleague or College Basketball, Smackdown or ECW. I support Proleague and some stick to GSTL. Some support both, but in the end for many there is a clear distinction, that's neither imaginary or illegitimate.
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opterown
Australia54747 Posts
you'll notice that it's mainly "kespa fans" who want to make "kespa-esf" a thing while most "esf fans" are happy to just watch sc2.
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On May 30 2013 13:53 opterown wrote:
you'll notice that it's mainly "kespa fans" who want to make "kespa-esf" a thing while most "esf fans" are happy to just watch sc2.
Well it was a thing, now esf'ers are playing it down cause they're on the losing end. I guarantee if ESF still had parity or were ahead on results you'd see a lot more ESF supporters. It's natural to avoid a losing battle.
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opterown
Australia54747 Posts
it's hardly a rivalry when one side doesn't care, does it? unless baited, of course.
and that's exactly what i mean by why this isn't a thing.
"kespa fans" bait because they want this rivalry to be "a thing" so they can feel superior to "esf fans"
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On May 30 2013 15:29 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 13:53 opterown wrote:
you'll notice that it's mainly "kespa fans" who want to make "kespa-esf" a thing while most "esf fans" are happy to just watch sc2. Well it was a thing, now esf'ers are playing it down cause they're on the losing end. I guarantee if ESF still had parity or were ahead on results you'd see a lot more ESF supporters. It's natural to avoid a losing battle.
Even when Kespa pros were first transitioning and looked like complete and utter shit, we had thread after thread about how Kespa was going to dominate all competition, about how Flash played a single ladder game and how "groundbreaking" it was, about how the Bonjwas were absolute gods of all RTS games ever created (not an exaggeration). And not a single thread about how ESF was so much better, despite how bad Kespa players were doing.
I'm pretty certain that "ESF fans" are a complete figment of some people's imaginations. I can't recall a single major thread that remotely hyped ESF as an organization unless it was an announcement by the company itself.
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On May 30 2013 12:52 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 11:17 Myrddraal wrote:On May 30 2013 10:07 Scarecrow wrote:On May 29 2013 23:35 Daswollvieh wrote:
My argument towards the "conflict" being imagined is its one-sidedness. You would have a point, if there were two sides (esf vs kespa fans) fighting each other, but there simply aren´t. There are so-called kespa-fans who try to provoke LR readers by snide posts. You and others imagine opposition versus you´re "pro-kespa" posts, while there is simply opposition towards your aggression and condescension. You don´t have to be screamed at, in order to feel uncomfortable, it´s enough to be around people screaming. And that´s what´s happening in LR threads. People (baiters) being scornful and thus creating an uncomfortable tension, whereat other posters react, which sadly acknowledges the baiters as an annoyance, which motivates them to keep provoking. That is what´s really happening, and not some esf-kespa crusade. That´s why I call it an imaginary conflict and stirring up shit.
If you actually cared to read the blog, you might have seen the point I was trying to make: People who like to hate (for whatever reason) bait other people, who just want to have fun, and when they react, the original provocateurs declare them the "other side/esf fanboys" hoping to drag everyone down to their level. The most repelling thing about this dynamic is that it´s so easy to provoke and so hard to reason, so eventually, the patience of reasonable people ends, and they avoid LR threads (or in terms of the parable: playing outside with friends). I don´t want this to happen as it would drive away people who contribute. In case you hadn´t noticed, no LR contributor argues for or against kespa/esf, how come?
I assume your next "argument" is that you´re simply taking revenge for being slighted before as a BW fan from SC2 fans, shifting battlefields, diverging attention. From your "arguments" defending the baiting, I conclude that you´re not. a fan of Kespa, but a fan of hating. You make it very hard to not resort to name calling. That last sentence is just so over the top and putting argument in quotation marks is pretty cheap. You must have a very loose definition of baiting. Bringing up the success of Kespa over ESF isn't baiting. It's stating fact and long-time fans of Kespa teams feel pretty good about it, so they naturally post. The guys who feel bad because their heroes are getting trounced or because they don't see the distinction, get upset and call the other side baiters. There are definitely ESF fans, I've seen guys call Kespa faceless koreans and guys like Bittman with hardcore ESF sigs. You have this schoolyard theory about what's happening and you're trying to force it's simplicity on reality. This isn't a kid's playground and people don't enjoy hating as much as they enjoy success and posting about it (common to fans of any sport). Sure some Kespa fans are bad sports/winners but they aren't baiting most of the time, the vast majority are celebrating. They'd be perfectly happy with no response, and I don't see how it's either hating/baiting. Then you guys call them elitist baiting assholes and we have a conflict. I just don't understand the necessity for this distinction between fanbases, as HolyArrow pointed out it's entirely possible to actually cheer for teams and players without associating them with their governing bureaucracy. The problem is that people make assumptions about other posters based on this perceived division and start generalising about each other (going both ways of course) and it's really not a positive environment and it certainly isn't attractive to newcomers (from personal experience coming to TeamLiquid in early SC2 days). Well I assume you agree that us vs them is a natural part of sport/fanbases. Now we simply disagree on whether Kespa (BW legends) vs ESF (WoL stars) is a legitimate thing to get passionate about. Also, Kespa is just the most convenient term to use for BW players that switched later (and less inflammatory than elephants). It's not about the governing beauracracy. The fans that were following Kespa players prior and during the switch are often less involved/interested in the ESF side and there are many fans that feel more strongly about the ESF side, full of players they've supported for the last 2+ years. It's not a necessary distinction but it's naturally happened due to the distinct fanbases, both of which feel their players are amazing and admittedly there is a lot of crossover these days as proleague gains traction. I admire some ESF players but in general I prefer the players I've spent longer following. An ESF fanboy is one who feels the same about his own set of WoL GSL players/teams that drew him into the scene. It's just semantics to suggest it's fine to support players/teams but not larger organisations. If enough people from both sides perceive a division then a division exists. People support/follow the English Premier League or maybe La Liga. NBA, Euroleague or College Basketball, Smackdown or ECW. I support Proleague and some stick to GSTL. Some support both, but in the end for many there is a clear distinction, that's neither imaginary or illegitimate.
Hmm okay fair points, I agree that it is natural, but I don't believe that it creates positive interactions. I mean I have no say in what anyone wants to feel passionate about, but you can be passionate about your side without making generalisations about "them" and bashing the players they support (not targeting you specifically, just that it is often a result of this mentality). Essentially you are right that it is just semantics, but you have to be aware that by supporting larger organisations in this fashion in an environment where both organisations participate, you have the potential to piss off a lot more people, which is the reason why any such arguments often turn to shit.
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EPT
