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Hello TL
I am applying to university next year and looking at my options for degree programmes, however I'm not completely sure what I want to pursue. I have limited my options to Computer science or Maths and i need to choose soon
I'm 20 and have no work experience or formal qualifications since the age of 16, so i have to go to uni asap... I was considering a maths degree and working as a statistician, employability is really important to me because I need to be able to land a job after I graduate, preferably with the same organisation that i did a year in industry with.
Can anyone tell me a bit about what options a degree in maths gives you and what the day-to-day life is of a statistician? I was considering software engineering but the long hours and stressful deadlines put me off.
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I have a degree in statistics. A math degree would give you plenty of options, but it is no guarantee in today's market. There are basically more people than jobs in every major country. I used to work in market science where it was my job to design surveys, evaluate the success of marketing campaigns of companies and stuff like that. Right now I am in the marketing department of a company where it is my job to create and design marketing related stuff and look how it worked afterwards, analysing the market for our products and stuff like that.
My working day is usually pretty chilled, I can basically do what I want, as long as my job is done when I leave in the afternoon. Hyperboling a bit, I get paid to watch streams on teamliquid.
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Statistics masters at the moment. If you like math enough and are good at it I would always recommend it, you can basically go anywhere with it really. It's just very highly regarded against companies and many companies rather seem to give a mathematician an inhouse training then take economics/business people.
Statistics is also widely applicable but for a bachelors major it's probably a bit limited. You might be better off doing mathematics with a minor statistics or just something like econometrics then
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I am a PhD student is math. People like to say that math will lead to jobs and companies like to hire math majors, but I have not seen this substantiated. If you want to do math and get a job focus on applied topics like numerical analysis and make sure you are a good programmer as well.
In my opinion, if you're going to school for the purpose of getting a job when you graduate math is not a safe option.
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On March 27 2013 19:31 Markwerf wrote:
Statistics masters at the moment. If you like math enough and are good at it I would always recommend it, you can basically go anywhere with it really. It's just very highly regarded against companies and many companies rather seem to give a mathematician an inhouse training then take economics/business people.
Statistics is also widely applicable but for a bachelors major it's probably a bit limited. You might be better off doing mathematics with a minor statistics or just something like econometrics then
"it's easier to teach the math students business than the business students math"
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If you have the ability and dedication, go for a double major. As far as getting a job after college, the safe bet would probably be computer science. You could always minor in math. I would, however, like to stress the fact that you aren't really limited by your major and can always change it. You could also possibly find that you are passionate about something completely different and use that to your advantage. I'll give you two examples.
Ever since my friend beat the first Zelda game, he has wanted to make video games. He decided he wanted to go to USC because of its high regard in the gaming industry He started going to an ok school in my city. While attending this school he rekindled his love for philosophy. He took a bunch of classes that would eventually help him with making games (A lot of writing and art classes). While also taking advanced level philosophy classes and set himself up to graduate with honors. He also studied programs that he would eventually use to make games. He finally applied to USC and didn't get into the video game dpartmean (they only accept ~15 people a year). He was bummed, but he got accepted to the philososphy department. While at USC he still studied programs such as Blender and Maya and tried to build his portfolio. After a couple more tries he was accepted into the interactive media school and is about to graduate with honors.
The second example is my cousin. She didn't really know what she wanted to do. She went to the University of Miami to study Spanish. Through her gen eds requirements she discovered that she had a passion for geology and is currently getting her PhD in some sort of ocean based geology.
My point is nothing is set in stone. Although it is nice to have a plan, it is extremely important to keep yourself open to the possibilities that your college will present to you. Getting a job after college is an obvious goal, but don't make it the basis of which you use to determine your path through college.
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On March 27 2013 21:35 Zortch wrote:
I am a PhD student is math. People like to say that math will lead to jobs and companies like to hire math majors, but I have not seen this substantiated. If you want to do math and get a job focus on applied topics like numerical analysis and make sure you are a good programmer as well.
In my opinion, if you're going to school for the purpose of getting a job when you graduate math is not a safe option.
Perhaps it's different in Canada, but here in the United States, there is a huge push towards the STEM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) fields, and related occupations (especially mathematician, statistician, and actuary) top the charts of many a "Best Jobs" list over the past few years.
Source 1: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123119236117055127.html
Source 2: http://www.careercast.com/jobs-rated/10-best-jobs-2010
I received my bachelor's in mathematics, and was well-aware that there exist many options for me (business, financing, economics, statistics, accounting, education, pure math, etc.). Many of my math major friends were instantly picked up by the professions and employers of their choice. I preferred to go the teaching route (there is far more need for math and science teachers than other kinds of teachers), but first I wanted more education so I received my master's in math education (and am currently working on my PhD in math education as well).
You have tons of options if you do mathematics; I'm not sure if you have the same level of opportunity if you do computer science, although I was never so passionate about any other subject that it became a "greater of the two greats" (as opposed to a lesser of the two evils).
But both math and computer science can totally score you a good job if you're good enough. Obviously, having the diploma itself is only half the battle (you then need to actually prove you're better than the other candidates outside of education).
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I can only really comment on my experience living in the US.
I went into grad school hoping to be a professor in mathematics, only to find that the areas I wanted to do this had people more qualified than I could be to do it, and that actually landing a professorial position anywhere was hard to do, and would require a ton of long hours to get tenure.
So after a couple years, I got a master's degree in mathematics (having aced the qualifying exams for the Ph. D program but electing not to continue) and set about a job search. It took a long time - far longer than I had hoped. But the end result was a well-paying position as an analyst for a business.
Really, a mathematician's best options are the NSA (which is always hiring math people - er, was... come to think of it...) and the business world (which doesn't actually like hiring math people, but has some amount of work which only those well-versed in math can do). I can't say as the options are terrific, especially if the idea of working in a cubicle doesn't appeal to you - but there you are.
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Heres my 2cents,
I live in the UK for what its worth although I cant imagine it makes worlds of difference.
I always loved maths in school, my A-Levels (16-18) I did maths, further maths, physics and biology and got AAAB respectively. I went to a good university (around 10th in the country I believe). Despite being good at maths and enjoying the work I had done so far, the hardest topic we learnt was probably fairly advanced Calculus, although no multi-variable stuff.
When I got to university my first year went swimmingly although 90% of the topics covered were not anything like I had studied in school. Group theory, Number theory, Linear Algebra and proofs in general were completely new to me and probably due t my own laziness I had no idea this is what would be taught.
I would make sure you look into the topics that the course will offer and make sure that it will interest you. I wish someone had given me this advice because by the time I was 50% through my course I had lost all passion for it and really just scraped through on being good at the basics. If I could do it over I would take economics, finance or something numerical that was easier and more practical.
I currently work for a relatively small investment management firm dealing mostly with fund structuring and fund management. I’ve passed the IMC (Investment Management Certificate, UK exam only) and I am studying for the CFA (Chartered Financial Analyst) which is basically an MBA in finance. I enjoy this study much more as I can see uses for the maths that I am learning instead of everything, and I mean EVERYTHING being totally theoretical in my degree.
In terms of employability, I couldn’t apply for high profile banking jobs straight out of uni because I didn’t get a 2:1 (60% on course), however even the best jobs advertised: required 2:1 in any numerical field. I believe if I had studied economics or finance I would have gotten a better grade due to increased interest and the course being easier.
So sure if you believe you have the passion and the drive to enjoy it and get a strong grade you are probably in a good position for employability as a mathematics degree is very highly regarded (even for me with my relatively low grade) however in my opinion I believe a 1st in economics and a 1st in Maths are not that dissimilar in terms of employability, I think all that matters is getting the interview, your degree isnt going to matter so much once your in there, its just the way to get in.
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On March 27 2013 22:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 21:35 Zortch wrote:
I am a PhD student is math. People like to say that math will lead to jobs and companies like to hire math majors, but I have not seen this substantiated. If you want to do math and get a job focus on applied topics like numerical analysis and make sure you are a good programmer as well.
In my opinion, if you're going to school for the purpose of getting a job when you graduate math is not a safe option.
Perhaps it's different in Canada, but here in the United States, there is a huge push towards the STEM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) fields, and related occupations (especially mathematician, statistician, and actuary) top the charts of many a "Best Jobs" list over the past few years. Source 1: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123119236117055127.html Source 2: http://www.careercast.com/jobs-rated/10-best-jobs-2010 I received my bachelor's in mathematics, and was well-aware that there exist many options for me (business, financing, economics, statistics, accounting, education, pure math, etc.). Many of my math major friends were instantly picked up by the professions and employers of their choice. I preferred to go the teaching route (there is far more need for math and science teachers than other kinds of teachers), but first I wanted more education so I received my master's in math education (and am currently working on my PhD in math education as well). You have tons of options if you do mathematics; I'm not sure if you have the same level of opportunity if you do computer science, although I was never so passionate about any other subject that it became a "greater of the two greats" (as opposed to a lesser of the two evils). But both math and computer science can totally score you a good job if you're good enough. Obviously, having the diploma itself is only half the battle (you then need to actually prove you're better than the other candidates outside of education).
It's not that there aren't jobs that use math heavily, but you need to be careful to study the maths that will lead to jobs. If you just do a general pure math undergrad then I think more specialized training will be required for many of these jobs particularly when you are competing with people who have degrees tailored for these positions.
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On March 27 2013 22:16 Desires wrote:
What country are you in?
Northern Ireland (UK)
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I dont think double majoring in math and comp sci is necessarily the greatest idea cuz at least in my school, you'll have to take 12+ courses in each over a short amount of time, which might be more trouble than it's worth.
Better to do a major and a minor IMO, which would be 12+ and 8+. Lots of schools also have programs that are like math degrees that specialize in computer science, which is a good mix. Right now Im doing a 12+/10 mix but I digress
Anyway you don't need to "choose" now since nothing is final, so I'm not sure what you are stressing out about so much. Just apply to the general BSc degree and don't declare your major right away. Figure out your major as you take classes in both Math/Comp sci. Then possibly transfer into a specialization of it later on. Or choose a specialization in comp sci or math then transfer programs later on if you feel like it.
I do agree that both Math/Comp sci give you good career outlooks though. People assume math majors can do just about anything.
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I'm in a similar situation as the OP. I'm thinking about switching my major next semester to something math/computer science focused(currently bioengineering). I attended a webinar for the NSA a few weeks ago and that seemed interesting. Can anyone comment on career prospects for engineers vs mathematicians?
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If employability is important to you, then I would suggest more on math oriented majors than math itself. While mathematics is a Rosetta Stone for all things that's logical and consistent, there's no high demand job that directly needs math majors with the exception for math teachers...but no one wants that. For the most part, you'll have to somehow convince your employers that your higher education in mathematics lets you be qualified for whatever you're applying for against all other applicants that studied directly for that field (finance, statistics, economics, engineering, etc.).
Trying to enter into a career will be your most difficult step. Once you enter into one though, excelling at it should be easier than that of your peers once you adapt to the culture and ways.
You can try to go for a double major or work up a math based hobby instead and create a portfolio. For example, you could study computer science on your own time, experiment, and create programs on your own, taking advantage over the fact that computer science is fundamentally part of mathematics.
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If long hours "put you off" then you shouldn't go to school at all. Whatever you do will take years of devotion and study, and when you graduate you better be really good at whatever you major in.
I'm a computer science student with a minor in math, and I can say that employment isn't much of a concern. Working on my portfolio to get the exact position I want is what I'm concerned with, and this boat is a lot better than a lot of the other boats graduates are in.
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On March 27 2013 23:36 Treehead wrote:
I can only really comment on my experience living in the US.
I went into grad school hoping to be a professor in mathematics, only to find that the areas I wanted to do this had people more qualified than I could be to do it, and that actually landing a professorial position anywhere was hard to do, and would require a ton of long hours to get tenure.
So after a couple years, I got a master's degree in mathematics (having aced the qualifying exams for the Ph. D program but electing not to continue) and set about a job search. It took a long time - far longer than I had hoped. But the end result was a well-paying position as an analyst for a business.
Really, a mathematician's best options are the NSA (which is always hiring math people - er, was... come to think of it...) and the business world (which doesn't actually like hiring math people, but has some amount of work which only those well-versed in math can do). I can't say as the options are terrific, especially if the idea of working in a cubicle doesn't appeal to you - but there you are.
May I ask what field you went in to Treehead? I find this a sad story, given that I am entering a math PhD with hopes of becoming a professor.
I can say that computer science majors all seem to land plenty of jobs, and they often have a lot of flexibility in that they can choose to work anywhere in the nation. This helps a lot if your spouse also wants to work somewhere. I think that it is possible to pick up a lot of math as a comp sci major, and to pick up a lot of coding experience as a math major. What major you pick probably doesn't matter too much as long as you get good work experience while you are studying.
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^ Landing a tenure-track job as a professor is tough in any field nowadays, STEM or otherwise. Of course, it's particularly bleak for humanities majors (e.g. if you're not in a top 10 program, you're probably screwed + there's less you can do with a humanities PhD compared to a STEM PhD in terms of work outside of academia). It's less rough on STEM majors in that you still have hope if you're not attending a Top 10 program, but I really wouldn't get my hopes up.
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On March 28 2013 12:51 babylon wrote:
^ Landing a tenure-track job as a professor is tough in any field nowadays, STEM or otherwise. Of course, it's particularly bleak for humanities majors (e.g. if you're not in a top 10 program, you're probably screwed + there's less you can do with a humanities PhD compared to a STEM PhD in terms of work outside of academia). It's less rough on STEM majors in that you still have hope if you're not attending a Top 10 program, but I really wouldn't get my hopes up.
This. The road to getting a tenure-track professor position is extremely competitive and limited to begin with for any majors. It's a bit easier in mathematics as fewer people pursue it compared to students in humanities/social science although it's counterbalanced by most university's math department being relatively small.
I would say only pursue a Ph.D in mathematics if and only if you absolutely are passionate and love mathematics itself such that you're willing to live cheap/dirt poor, stay up and stay in for long nights and weekends, and go through several premature mid-life crises.
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On March 28 2013 13:12 BirdKiller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 12:51 babylon wrote:
^ Landing a tenure-track job as a professor is tough in any field nowadays, STEM or otherwise. Of course, it's particularly bleak for humanities majors (e.g. if you're not in a top 10 program, you're probably screwed + there's less you can do with a humanities PhD compared to a STEM PhD in terms of work outside of academia). It's less rough on STEM majors in that you still have hope if you're not attending a Top 10 program, but I really wouldn't get my hopes up. This. The road to getting a tenure-track professor position is extremely competitive and limited to begin with for any majors. It's a bit easier in mathematics as fewer people pursue it compared to students in humanities/social science although it's counterbalanced by most university's math department being relatively small. I would say only pursue a Ph.D in mathematics if and only if you absolutely are passionate and love mathematics itself such that you're willing to live cheap/dirt poor, stay up and stay in for long nights and weekends, and go through several premature mid-life crises.
I don't like this advice. It is putting too much pressure on people to insinuate that they must always be passionate about mathematics. A person's desire to do mathematics can wax and wane over time and they can still be successful. As long as you have enough talent and motivation during the times you feel like doing mathematics, I feel it is important not to feel guilty during the times you are not doing mathematics.
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On March 28 2013 14:52 Muirhead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 13:12 BirdKiller wrote:On March 28 2013 12:51 babylon wrote:
^ Landing a tenure-track job as a professor is tough in any field nowadays, STEM or otherwise. Of course, it's particularly bleak for humanities majors (e.g. if you're not in a top 10 program, you're probably screwed + there's less you can do with a humanities PhD compared to a STEM PhD in terms of work outside of academia). It's less rough on STEM majors in that you still have hope if you're not attending a Top 10 program, but I really wouldn't get my hopes up. This. The road to getting a tenure-track professor position is extremely competitive and limited to begin with for any majors. It's a bit easier in mathematics as fewer people pursue it compared to students in humanities/social science although it's counterbalanced by most university's math department being relatively small. I would say only pursue a Ph.D in mathematics if and only if you absolutely are passionate and love mathematics itself such that you're willing to live cheap/dirt poor, stay up and stay in for long nights and weekends, and go through several premature mid-life crises. I don't like this advice. It is putting too much pressure on people to insinuate that they must always be passionate about mathematics. A person's desire to do mathematics can wax and wane over time and they can still be successful. As long as you have enough talent and motivation during the times you feel like doing mathematics, I feel it is important not to feel guilty during the times you are not doing mathematics.
In my opinion, it's all about understanding the costs vs. the benefits. If, in the face of knowing about the bleak job market, you are still willing to sacrifice the time and (potential) money earned, and you are not going into debt(!!!), then it's your decision! Just be aware of the horrendous chances.
I certainly can't mouth off at you anyways. Would be hypocritical. My subfield has just a handful of job postings a year. (Literally. There are currently four job ads up, and this is a really good year.)
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I did maths
I'm working in an industry that supposedly is for mathematicians and smart physicists and the like
At no point have i needed any of that. All i needed was some common sense and maybe some psychology *shrug*
Maths was cool to study, i wouldn't have done anything else tbh
If you're actually looking for a job, then you better start studying heavy numerical analysis and numerical modelling followed by a lot of python.
Someone with a PHD in numerical modelling with a maths background, good python skills, a CFA and yeah, i could get you a job as a quant somewhere if you are smart enough to do all those things and still want to work your ass off lol
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On March 27 2013 23:36 BoonSolo wrote:
Heres my 2cents,
I live in the UK for what its worth although I cant imagine it makes worlds of difference.
I always loved maths in school, my A-Levels (16-18) I did maths, further maths, physics and biology and got AAAB respectively. I went to a good university (around 10th in the country I believe). Despite being good at maths and enjoying the work I had done so far, the hardest topic we learnt was probably fairly advanced Calculus, although no multi-variable stuff.
When I got to university my first year went swimmingly although 90% of the topics covered were not anything like I had studied in school. Group theory, Number theory, Linear Algebra and proofs in general were completely new to me and probably due t my own laziness I had no idea this is what would be taught.
I would make sure you look into the topics that the course will offer and make sure that it will interest you. I wish someone had given me this advice because by the time I was 50% through my course I had lost all passion for it and really just scraped through on being good at the basics. If I could do it over I would take economics, finance or something numerical that was easier and more practical.
I currently work for a relatively small investment management firm dealing mostly with fund structuring and fund management. I’ve passed the IMC (Investment Management Certificate, UK exam only) and I am studying for the CFA (Chartered Financial Analyst) which is basically an MBA in finance. I enjoy this study much more as I can see uses for the maths that I am learning instead of everything, and I mean EVERYTHING being totally theoretical in my degree.
In terms of employability, I couldn’t apply for high profile banking jobs straight out of uni because I didn’t get a 2:1 (60% on course), however even the best jobs advertised: required 2:1 in any numerical field. I believe if I had studied economics or finance I would have gotten a better grade due to increased interest and the course being easier.
So sure if you believe you have the passion and the drive to enjoy it and get a strong grade you are probably in a good position for employability as a mathematics degree is very highly regarded (even for me with my relatively low grade) however in my opinion I believe a 1st in economics and a 1st in Maths are not that dissimilar in terms of employability, I think all that matters is getting the interview, your degree isnt going to matter so much once your in there, its just the way to get in.
Seems you had a similar experience to me. I waltzed through school and A levels, but university maths was a different kettle of fish. I was used to the "solve this do this" stuff at school, but at university it became a lot more abstract and really there wasn't a whole lot of "do this solve this", let alone using a calculator. I swear when I say maths to people they say "Oh you could become an accountant", to which I reply that really there isn't any Maths in accounting - the only exams I'd say a calculator was vital were the statistics modules.
However, I lost my pa during the course which probably didn't help, and after taking a couple of years longer than I should have (I resat second year and took a year break) I did manage to complete with a 2:2. Final year I did some modules that were really interesting. Graph Theory and Combinatorics actually taught me what Maths is really about, the abstractness of it and the lateral thinking that is needed to solve problems. After these modules I was actually doing proofs myself, rather than just trying to memorise them for exams like in first year. I also did a Cosmology module that was very interesting.
So with hindsight I wouldn't do Maths at age 19 like I did, I'd wait until now (I'm 25) so as to be a bit maturer and appreciative of it. I'd still do it, because it's fascinating, I'm a little gutted I couldn't make the most of it. Of course that's easy to say, likely that the whole experience was a maturing one. But OP you seem to be acting mature about this. Just honestly ONLY do Maths if you are sure you'll enjoy it, that's the only advice I can really give.
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EPT
