EPTIn my university it is hard to abuse the system, they pretty much put you in a shitty situation where you're doomed to fail, unless you do all assignments with peers, you get textbooks out of the designed course ones, you go to the optional tutorials, you review previous courses etc. By putting in that effort you do better than the rest, there's nothing to do to get ahead even more.
College advice - Page 5
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
In my university it is hard to abuse the system, they pretty much put you in a shitty situation where you're doomed to fail, unless you do all assignments with peers, you get textbooks out of the designed course ones, you go to the optional tutorials, you review previous courses etc. By putting in that effort you do better than the rest, there's nothing to do to get ahead even more. | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
On March 23 2013 01:30 FiWiFaKi wrote: I think you guys are thinking of cheating as in the classical sense. I'm in a top engineering university in Canada, and nobody will look at another person's paper, try to bring a piece of paper into the exam etc. Like realize what's on the line for cheating, smart people don't think it's worth the 0.1% chance of getting caught to get a few percent higher mark. In my university it is hard to abuse the system, they pretty much put you in a shitty situation where you're doomed to fail, unless you do all assignments with peers, you get textbooks out of the designed course ones, you go to the optional tutorials, you review previous courses etc. By putting in that effort you do better than the rest, there's nothing to do to get ahead even more. I would also think it's completely useless. You could bring you book and still fail for an engineering course. | ||
micronesia
United States24770 Posts
On March 23 2013 02:21 Recognizable wrote: I would also think it's completely useless. You could bring you book and still fail for an engineering course. Yea I think this is also true more generally: if you are able to cheat by bringing a bit of paper secretly into class then the test can't be that difficult... The last exam I took was open text/notes/everything, and it didn't help in the least lol. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On March 23 2013 02:24 micronesia wrote: Yea I think this is also true more generally: if you are able to cheat by bringing a bit of paper secretly into class then the test can't be that difficult... The last exam I took was open text/notes/everything, and it didn't help in the least lol. Was it 'open internet' lol | ||
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lightrise
United States1355 Posts
On March 23 2013 01:30 FiWiFaKi wrote: I think you guys are thinking of cheating as in the classical sense. I'm in a top engineering university in Canada, and nobody will look at another person's paper, try to bring a piece of paper into the exam etc. Like realize what's on the line for cheating, smart people don't think it's worth the 0.1% chance of getting caught to get a few percent higher mark. In my university it is hard to abuse the system, they pretty much put you in a shitty situation where you're doomed to fail, unless you do all assignments with peers, you get textbooks out of the designed course ones, you go to the optional tutorials, you review previous courses etc. By putting in that effort you do better than the rest, there's nothing to do to get ahead even more. This statement is super weird. What school do you attend and in which engineering program? I know for a FACT that most people cheat or use their friends for "help". You are correct saying that the top people like 2% don't cheat. Everyone else studies together and does homework together and shows people how to do problems. They also show them the answers. This happens all the time. That is the definition of cheating. I am about to graduate from a top university in ChemE. Also I agree there might be some bad advice from the OP. No one is perfect though. I actually think it makes people that read it think if these things are for them. Most people know already if they are someone who will try drugs or not. That is a personal choice people will make later one. I think there is no problem in trying something once or twice. Whatever you decide to do though just don't abuse it. I agree with micronesia though on the career advice. I think schools SUCK at giving advice. Everyone told me I would love chemical engineering and they all had no fucking clue what it really was. I only did some minor research about it and thought it really was just chemistry and math. Its really process engineering with lots of physics. They really need better programs to try and interest and direct students and give them inside looks at specific professions. I also think that they are scared to do this for some jobs because at the core of some of these jobs your just doing excel work, or just doing X or Y. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
4: Sleep with everything that walks 5: Manipulate everything that walks into sleeping with you 6: Don't forget who you are since you need to pretend for the manipulation to work ..... Not so much. If you want to sleep around in college, then feel free. If you want to save yourself for that special someone or for marriage, then do that, too. You're right that college, especially the first two years, is a place where many look for no-strings sex. You are not required to participate, just like you aren't required to party and get drunk. And really, you're not missing out if you don't. If you're ok knowing "I didn't sleep around in college" then it's fine. The same goes for 8. Here's my two cents on building a social life. I was a freshman RA for three years, so it is geared toward underclassmen. 1) Visit a lot of rooms. This means that you need to get out of YOUR room to start gaining new experiences. These "rooms" can be clubs, social groups, bars, etc. The idea is that you meet more people and have more experiences the more "rooms" you enter. 2) Find a place where you fit in. If you hung out with a bunch of fraternity brothers and liked it, then rush the fraternity. If you went to the pentecostal campus ministry and liked it, then keep coming back. If you like sitting in the basement playing D&D with your buddies, then find a campaign on campus and join. Everyone is different, so everyone has a specific niche. A LOT of freshman enter with the notion that they need to get drunk Thursday through Saturday, sleep around, and follow popular trends. In reality, you need to find where you're comfortable and where you can grow. Colleges are large and diverse, so these places DO exist (you just need to enter a bunch of "rooms" to find them). It can be in the middle of a frat house, or it can be in a club that plays schoolyard games once a week. | ||
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micronesia
United States24770 Posts
Would not have helped due to the time limitations. If I had 24 hours to take it, then having internet would have helped. On March 23 2013 02:45 lightrise wrote: This isn't cheating!This statement is super weird. What school do you attend and in which engineering program? I know for a FACT that most people cheat or use their friends for "help". You are correct saying that the top people like 2% don't cheat. Everyone else studies together and does homework together This isn't cheating, provided it is collaboration and not just copying (some professors might not want you to work together but from what I've seen that's rare with regard to homeworks).They also show them the answers. Yeah just giving away answers I'll agree is no good.That is the definition of cheating. I don't think you really gave many examples of cheating. Collaboration is good. Cheating would be copying which I agreed with, or using a resource during an exam that you aren't allowed to use. Alternately, it could be acquiring information about a test ahead of time that shouldn't be available to you.I'm not saying cheating doesn't happen... just that you have a strangely inclusive definition. I agree with micronesia though on the career advice. I think schools SUCK at giving advice. Everyone told me I would love chemical engineering and they all had no fucking clue what it really was. I only did some minor research about it and thought it really was just chemistry and math. Its really process engineering with lots of physics. They really need better programs to try and interest and direct students and give them inside looks at specific professions. I also think that they are scared to do this for some jobs because at the core of some of these jobs your just doing excel work, or just doing X or Y. Yea, definitely. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Well, for most of my theoretical computer science exams, we had access to all the lecture notes and the books we wanted to bring. For some we even had Internet allowed, but it wouldn't have helped at all, barring finding the answer sheet on the professor's webpage or something :D When the prof comes up with some fucking esoteric variant of concurrent lambda calculus and ask you to prove normalization properties on it, no amount of cheating will help you, because this shit doesn't even exist in the real world :D. I think some people here actually don't realize that tests can be completely about understanding and reflection and not the slightest about knowledge. Cheat sheets are useless at that point. What you can do is copy the answers on some guy who's smarter than you, but that's about it, and it's hard to do it discreetly. And what I'm saying is that you don't need to cheat if you're smart enough. There are people who cheat and are also smart, I never pretended the contrary. But don't assume that every guy who is successful academically cheats. Nah, some people are just really smart :D Edit: Maybe there is some misunderstanding on my part. In France most important tests are still time limited exams in a room with someone to look over you and spaced enough tables. We don't really do graded "home assignments", at least they have a very low coefficient on the final mark. I would think it's much easier to "plagiarize" essays or answers to a home assignment. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On March 23 2013 03:06 ZenithM wrote: Well, for most of my theoretical computer science exams, we had access to all the lecture notes and the books we wanted to bring. For some we even had Internet allowed, but it wouldn't have helped at all, barring finding the answer sheet on the professor's webpage or something :D When the prof comes up with some fucking esoteric variant of concurrent lambda calculus and ask you to prove normalization properties on it, no amount of cheating will help you, because this shit doesn't even exist in the real world :D. I think some people here actually don't realize that tests can be completely about understanding and reflection and not the slightest about knowledge. Cheat sheets are useless at that point. What you can do is copy the answers on some guy who's smarter than you, but that's about it, and it's hard to do it discreetly. And what I'm saying is that you don't need to cheat if you're smart enough. There are people who cheat and are also smart, I never pretended the contrary. But don't assume that every guy who is successful academically cheats. Nah, some people are just really smart :D Edit: Maybe there is some misunderstanding on my part. In France most important tests are still time limited exams in a room with someone to look over you and spaced enough tables. We don't really do graded "home assignments", at least they have a very low coefficient on the final mark. I would think it's much easier to "plagiarize" essays or answers to a home assignment. I guess that's more of a subject thing. I took econ and stats, and it was usually pretty easy to find all the variations of the prior year's test problems on the internet, which usually gave us a ridiculous advantage when it came to test day. | ||
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lightrise
United States1355 Posts
I have really learned what is acceptable and what isn't for school. I just think that all this "collaboration" is bullshit. Lots of times I refuse to do homework with my buddies or my group because I never really learn the material that way. I will sometimes go down to my building and work on the homework and if I get stuck I ask for help understanding something not just getting the answer. What happens for the most part though is for groups bigger then 2/3 there are always people who don't understand the material. People just give out the equations and answers. That is cheating no matter how you look at it. I also have the answers for almost all of the homework problems that are from the book. Is this cheating? Most would assume yes. I usually use it as a source to see if I am on doing shit right because homework in my major can be super hard. If you copy the answer key obviously your an idiot because the teachers have the same answers. The goal of homework is to learn the material not to get the right answer. I think people would be naive to think cheating isn't commonplace. It just is. Maybe some people are morally superior but in the end it does occur. | ||
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micronesia
United States24770 Posts
On March 23 2013 04:02 lightrise wrote: I just think that all this "collaboration" is bullshit. I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you are just jaded when it comes to this. Just because there is collaboration doesn't mean that learning is hampered. I agree about large groups, though. I feel collaboration on homework for example is best when there are no more than 2-3 students, and the students are not collaborating for the purpose of not having to learn the material themselves (the ultimate being when high school students say "you do 1-5, I'll do 6-10 then we'll copy"). However, when students abuse homework collaboration they just fail the test anyway in many courses so it really doesn't matter what they choose to do. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
In general though, cheating would be pretty hard for me. The number of assignments/problem sets in my classes where everyone would get the same answers is pretty small, and its only worth like 10% of my grade in any of the classes. | ||
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Burrfoot
United States1176 Posts
So cheat in school and have some underling do all the heavy lifting at work. Just know who to massage and you'll be all set. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Does anybody else feel that way? Or course if you're confident and your self-assessment of your skills is precise enough you can have a rough idea of what you can and what you can't figure out alone, but I still don't really like it when I'm feeded logical reasoning and thought out conclusions  Well, it's probably way off topic already. Just to explain why for me cheating is kind of inherently impossible. | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
On March 23 2013 04:02 lightrise wrote: Micro: I have really learned what is acceptable and what isn't for school. I just think that all this "collaboration" is bullshit. Lots of times I refuse to do homework with my buddies or my group because I never really learn the material that way. I will sometimes go down to my building and work on the homework and if I get stuck I ask for help understanding something not just getting the answer. What happens for the most part though is for groups bigger then 2/3 there are always people who don't understand the material. People just give out the equations and answers. That is cheating no matter how you look at it. I also have the answers for almost all of the homework problems that are from the book. Is this cheating? Most would assume yes. I usually use it as a source to see if I am on doing shit right because homework in my major can be super hard. If you copy the answer key obviously your an idiot because the teachers have the same answers. The goal of homework is to learn the material not to get the right answer. I think people would be naive to think cheating isn't commonplace. It just is. Maybe some people are morally superior but in the end it does occur. I disagree. This is not cheating. This is people being dumb. Homework isn't graded isn't it? People can copy answers all they want. They will fail the test anyway. If homework is graded. Well... You are right. But homework being graded? That's on a whole new level of bullshit. Anyway. I had an exam today for Biology and I knew about half the questions already. This lazy teacher of mine made it by using the previous exams which were available on the internet. Which I had practiced. Oh well. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On March 23 2013 05:58 Recognizable wrote: I disagree. This is not cheating. This is people being dumb. Homework isn't graded isn't it? People can copy answers all they want. They will fail the test anyway. If homework is graded. Well... You are right. But homework being graded? That's on a whole new level of bullshit. Anyway. I had an exam today for Biology and I knew about half the questions already. This lazy teacher of mine made it by using the previous exams which were available on the internet. Which I had practiced. Oh well. I think homework being graded is very common in the US. It was even the context of the Harvard scandal from not too long ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Harvard_cheating_scandal. But yeah it doesn't make too much sense to me either :D Edit: changed "reason" to "context" :D | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
On March 23 2013 06:42 ZenithM wrote: I think homework being graded is very common in the US. It was even the context of the Harvard scandal from not too long ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Harvard_cheating_scandal. But yeah it doesn't make too much sense to me either :D Edit: changed "reason" to "context" :D What's this? Kindergarten? Take home exams. wat. | ||
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Japhybaby
Canada301 Posts
On March 23 2013 01:15 docvoc wrote: Most people who are gifted are also gifted at cheating the system in my experience. People here who say they know smart people who don't cheat are either not in the know, or the kids are so smart they don't have to cheat (which is a possibility, but I doubt it is all of them). Also saying they aren't smart because they cheat is incredibly naive. Knowing how to cheat the system successfully and in a repeatable manner is one of the things school, especially the IB, has taught me to be able to do. I don't cheat, but I've learned a great deal from the smart kids I see cheating, though I don't consider myself smart  .You wrote a blog about how you have "senioritis" aka you lack motivation. you see the system is stupid so you can't be fucked to work for it. I think that the problem is that you think theres some group of elites coasting and that you're not part of it, which makes it feel like things are beyond your control. It's not true though. you have control to work hard and not cheat. Sure, some people may have a less beautiful and more efficient approach than you but that is no excuse.. Besides.. all this talk of "smart"... i think "smart" is overrated. Just look at Friedrich Nietzsche, he was too much of a genius for his own good and where did it get him? 6 great book that he couldn't even reap teh benefits of because he went crazy before the rest of the world knew what the fuck he was even talking about. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
On March 23 2013 06:42 ZenithM wrote: I think homework being graded is very common in the US. It was even the context of the Harvard scandal from not too long ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Harvard_cheating_scandal. But yeah it doesn't make too much sense to me either :D Edit: changed "reason" to "context" :D for a class named "Introduction to Congress," cheating should be mandatory. What's this? Kindergarten? Take home exams. I don't think take-home exams are unjustified if the exam material is sufficiently challenging. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
think of it just like working out. you wont build muscle or get more fit by faking. sure there's some things that make it easier, but ultimately you need to put in the effort. on another note, harvard is hard to get in ez to get out. inflation on grades there makes the inflation on the iranian rial look tame. i personally think its hilarious that students started QQing so much cuz a class that was supposed to be easy actually got hard. (btw, that is some serious fail cheating) | ||
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