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Besides the face that it's lets your practice your problem solving skills...
For the most part, programming in general is useless for most people, especially those outside in the field of mathematics, engineering, computers, and science. However, it's one of the more friendly methods to convey and manifest an idea or concept into a consistent and logical message compared to say learning proofs in mathematics or going through a myriad of algebraic equations in physics.
It's easy to think of something that seems logical to yourself. It's harder to convey it's logical to others, inanimate or not. It's hardest to convince yourself that sometimes, that seemingly logical idea isn't logical after all.
Programming is one of the ways to practice such manifestation of logical and consistent ideas.
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On March 05 2013 13:51 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 13:22 sam!zdat wrote:I'm deeply troubled by this idea that coding is suddenly the most important thing that anyone could learn  I suppose this is not really different from my general beef that our cultural attitude towards education has tunnel vision for STEM On March 05 2013 13:21 Loser777 wrote:
Getting people to "code" is an empty goal. Teaching people to be curious and work on projects that require an understanding of programming languages is much more meaningful. well said I've never heard anyone say coding is the most important thing anyone could learn. Even within the comp sci department they say to keep your view on the whole picture of what you're designing and think critically about what you're implementing from an algorithmic approach, rather than focusing on learning one specific language. In fact all the teaching at my school is done language independent, so that you grasp the concepts and then can apply it to what you like. It's not philosophy but it's a useful and generalizable thing to learn and add to your skill set. But then again I go to a small liberal arts school 
But all of that is coding though. Coding isn't just about learning a language.
On March 05 2013 13:21 Loser777 wrote:
I feel that a lot of comments and the video itself rely on too many generalizations. What is "coding?". Some 2 line bash script that saves you the 10 seconds of typing out some commonly used commands? A 1000 line two week project in C for your operating systems class? Some web page or document written in [insert markup language here]? The next-great videogame that takes years of development by a team of thousands? Sure, getting people to "code" is great. But what is "coding"? Does everyone need to learn every kind of "coding" there is? I'm sure Chris Bosh had a lot of fun "coding in college."
All of it. Just like how arithmetic is math. High school algebra is math. Calculus is math. Partial differential equation is still math. Not everyone knows all of these, but everyone is expected to learn up to at least high school algebra. (Personally I want them to stress logic/probability/statistics more, as they are more useful, but that's another story all together.)
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I would like the CS classes in schools provide more understanding of how computer systems work. This would save a lot of nerves of people who wreck havoc when they can't use some devices properly (blaming it all on the device of course).
Probably, teaching coding might be a good start
On the other hand, I can't see how the programming skills would help f.e. a cashier in a supermarket (assuming she started working as a cashier, and then signed for the classes). He/she won't probably won't see any connection between the code and the thing he/she does every day (because there is a hell of a long road between a simple code and a cash systems working).
The idea looks fine, but the problem is in the complexity of the whole computer world.
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Coding is awful and boring if all you do is file i/o or math.
However, once I learned computer graphics, suddenly I could create anything I wanted. Starcraft? League of Legends? Halo? Computer graphics is the empowering factor.
When I was a beginner, I was learning C++ and I wanted to put a pixel on the screen, not the stupid console window. A year later and a couple hundred lines of DirectX (no beginner is going to know how to link to a library without help, let alone understand what the fuck its doing) and I drew a model from Assassins Creed. Talk about barrier of entry.
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Maybe it is me, but I see 3 pages of comments that can be summed up as "Coding is useful", and I really don't chalk that up to a real discussion about the subject.
Speaking another language is useful, and so is knowing how to build a fire if you are lost in the woods overnight. Does that mean that everyone should be introduced to these skills?
In this regard, yes coding is useful, but should everyone be introduced to coding? Of course this discussion has been one sided as it is being discussed by computer literate folks (being on Teamliquid), but I'm surprised that I'm not seeing the other side of the argument yet.
Anyhow, being older than the crowd here, I will pull the "time is finite" card, and simply say that not all skills are worth the time being invested in them. Sure there have been examples of using coding to decrease the time to complete a project 10-fold (I have had my share at work too), but ultimately if the company has a group of programmers to tackle these issues, the part of the project which needs that work will be thrown to them.
The flip side is that if you are working at a start-up with 10 people, then yeah, it would be nice to have more self sufficient workers. But then again, if you have 2 programmers in the group, why would the other 8 need the skill? Likewise, if 2 people knew how to speak 3-4 languages, why would the others need those skills?
My point is, that it is not feasible to be specialized in a skillset (which is a requirement in society today), and also have working knowledge of all other skills. Time is finite, and it just isn't worth it.
(looking forward to seeing a more in depth discussion of this)
-EDIT- As a background I'm an engineer and I code often.
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Being able to code allows you to see solutions to problems other people blissfully ignore or futilely endure.
If more people could code, more problems might get solved and the world might be a better place.
Imagine a world were everyone could fix bugs rather than just filing them.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On March 05 2013 04:32 Shady Sands wrote:
That video just sounds like a whole bunch of tech guys saying: "please we need a greater supply people who code out of love so we can work them harder and pay them less"
There's definitely an element of truth to that
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Sorry if this is a bit off-topic but I was wondering what the general thought on what web-development falls under. I know some programmers that don't consider anything web-based as programming or coding, while others have a more mixed approach. In the broadest sense, it is programming in that you are telling a machine (a web browser) what to do, but it doesn't really do any heavy lifting like real programming does. To further muddy the waters there are things like php that are entirely web-based, but can be used to do "real" programming if needed.
I was wondering what everyone else's take on it was. As a web developer/designer I don't consider myself a "programmer" (even though I have taken programming courses), as that title can get pretty elitist, but I'm not sure what else it is besides "web developer," if anything.
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On March 06 2013 01:58 HardlyNever wrote:
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic but I was wondering what the general thought on what web-development falls under. I know some programmers that don't consider anything web-based as programming or coding, while others have a more mixed approach. In the broadest sense, it is programming in that you are telling a machine (a web browser) what to do, but it doesn't really do any heavy lifting like real programming does. To further muddy the waters there are things like php that are entirely web-based, but can be used to do "real" programming if needed.
I was wondering what everyone else's take on it was. As a web developer/designer I don't consider myself a "programmer" (even though I have taken programming courses), as that title can get pretty elitist, but I'm not sure what else it is besides "web developer," if anything.
Bullshit. Following that logic only people that write machine code are real programmers.. because all other languages are just simplified versions of it... or maybe i should say that when you write c++ you are scripting, because it is all just simplified machine code :D.... ah well, im not a programmer so i might be wrong.
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On March 06 2013 01:58 HardlyNever wrote:
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic but I was wondering what the general thought on what web-development falls under. I know some programmers that don't consider anything web-based as programming or coding, while others have a more mixed approach. In the broadest sense, it is programming in that you are telling a machine (a web browser) what to do, but it doesn't really do any heavy lifting like real programming does. To further muddy the waters there are things like php that are entirely web-based, but can be used to do "real" programming if needed.
I was wondering what everyone else's take on it was. As a web developer/designer I don't consider myself a "programmer" (even though I have taken programming courses), as that title can get pretty elitist, but I'm not sure what else it is besides "web developer," if anything.
JavaScript and PHP are programming languages. HTML and CSS are not.
When you use a programming language, you are a programmer.
These are facts.
In my experience, "web designer" can span anything from HTML, CSS, and JavaScript (and visual design, creation of assets, etc.) while "web developer" often means that you can handle a wider set of responsibilities including the any server side development. However, as with all job titles, there is no "real" boundary.
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On March 06 2013 02:08 SupplyBlockedTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 01:58 HardlyNever wrote:
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic but I was wondering what the general thought on what web-development falls under. I know some programmers that don't consider anything web-based as programming or coding, while others have a more mixed approach. In the broadest sense, it is programming in that you are telling a machine (a web browser) what to do, but it doesn't really do any heavy lifting like real programming does. To further muddy the waters there are things like php that are entirely web-based, but can be used to do "real" programming if needed.
I was wondering what everyone else's take on it was. As a web developer/designer I don't consider myself a "programmer" (even though I have taken programming courses), as that title can get pretty elitist, but I'm not sure what else it is besides "web developer," if anything. Bullshit. Following that logic only people that write machine code are real programmers.. because all other languages are just simplified versions of it... or maybe i should say that when you write c++ you are scripting, because it is all just simplified machine code :D.... ah well, im not a programmer so i might be wrong.
damn it emacs!
http://xkcd.com/378/
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On March 06 2013 02:45 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 02:08 SupplyBlockedTV wrote:On March 06 2013 01:58 HardlyNever wrote:
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic but I was wondering what the general thought on what web-development falls under. I know some programmers that don't consider anything web-based as programming or coding, while others have a more mixed approach. In the broadest sense, it is programming in that you are telling a machine (a web browser) what to do, but it doesn't really do any heavy lifting like real programming does. To further muddy the waters there are things like php that are entirely web-based, but can be used to do "real" programming if needed.
I was wondering what everyone else's take on it was. As a web developer/designer I don't consider myself a "programmer" (even though I have taken programming courses), as that title can get pretty elitist, but I'm not sure what else it is besides "web developer," if anything. Bullshit. Following that logic only people that write machine code are real programmers.. because all other languages are just simplified versions of it... or maybe i should say that when you write c++ you are scripting, because it is all just simplified machine code :D.... ah well, im not a programmer so i might be wrong. damn it emacs! http://xkcd.com/378/
The Meta key is the bane of my existence.
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On March 06 2013 02:08 SupplyBlockedTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 01:58 HardlyNever wrote:
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic but I was wondering what the general thought on what web-development falls under. I know some programmers that don't consider anything web-based as programming or coding, while others have a more mixed approach. In the broadest sense, it is programming in that you are telling a machine (a web browser) what to do, but it doesn't really do any heavy lifting like real programming does. To further muddy the waters there are things like php that are entirely web-based, but can be used to do "real" programming if needed.
I was wondering what everyone else's take on it was. As a web developer/designer I don't consider myself a "programmer" (even though I have taken programming courses), as that title can get pretty elitist, but I'm not sure what else it is besides "web developer," if anything. Bullshit. Following that logic only people that write machine code are real programmers.. because all other languages are just simplified versions of it... or maybe i should say that when you write c++ you are scripting, because it is all just simplified machine code :D.... ah well, im not a programmer so i might be wrong.
He's right when he says as a web developer he doesn't consider himself to be a "programmer." There are a few reasons why:
1. Basic reason: look at how much a Java programmer makes compared to a front-end developer... I know I make at least 30,000 (no joke) more than the web devs at my work
2. Web languages aren't compiled languages, meaning there is a limit on how much of an individual machine those languages have control over
3. You don't need to know hardcore algorithms to solve problems as a webdev, and you aren't concerned with machine performance since the big company web-browsers are your platforms
4. Similarly, you don't need to know design philosophy, any design patterns, how to unit test, application deployment, database structure (normalization, etc.), application integration, etc., since all of that is pre-defined as a robust back-end application+database (on most big-time front-end applications)
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On March 06 2013 03:07 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 02:08 SupplyBlockedTV wrote:On March 06 2013 01:58 HardlyNever wrote:
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic but I was wondering what the general thought on what web-development falls under. I know some programmers that don't consider anything web-based as programming or coding, while others have a more mixed approach. In the broadest sense, it is programming in that you are telling a machine (a web browser) what to do, but it doesn't really do any heavy lifting like real programming does. To further muddy the waters there are things like php that are entirely web-based, but can be used to do "real" programming if needed.
I was wondering what everyone else's take on it was. As a web developer/designer I don't consider myself a "programmer" (even though I have taken programming courses), as that title can get pretty elitist, but I'm not sure what else it is besides "web developer," if anything. Bullshit. Following that logic only people that write machine code are real programmers.. because all other languages are just simplified versions of it... or maybe i should say that when you write c++ you are scripting, because it is all just simplified machine code :D.... ah well, im not a programmer so i might be wrong. He's right when he says as a web developer he doesn't consider himself to be a "programmer." There are a few reasons why: 1. Basic reason: look at how much a Java programmer makes compared to a front-end developer... I know I make at least 30,000 (no joke) more than the web devs at my work 2. Web languages aren't compiled languages, meaning there is a limit on how much of an individual machine those languages have control over 3. You don't need to know hardcore algorithms to solve problems as a webdev, and you aren't concerned with machine performance since the big company web-browsers are your platforms 4. Similarly, you don't need to know design philosophy, any design patterns, how to unit test, application deployment, database structure (normalization, etc.), application integration, etc., since all of that is pre-defined as a robust back-end application+database (on most big-time front-end applications)
I agree with #2-3. #1 I couldn't really comment much on because a. I'm a recent graduate and b. I'm actually a librarian with web development experience so I handle the website for the library. In the hierarchy of the university I'm a librarian(professional), not a web developer, I just happen to be both in reality.
#4 I have to disagree with, but that might be more of my personal experience or having to work within libraries in general. I need to understand database structure as well as language (I do primarily SQL databases) in order to work in the environment I work in. But again, that might be more unique to libraries. You could probably get away with web development in general without that knowledge/experience.
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As I see it, coding teaches two things, and does so very well. If you can find something else that gets across the same points as effectively, then by all means push for that. The first is linear problem thinking. Given a set of steps, can you follow the logic and work out what the result is. In the other direction, given a goal, can you create sub-goals and a set of steps to reach each one, and eventually accomplish the larger goal.
The second big idea, one post mentioned as "polymorphism" but I prefer to call it abstraction. Given an individual problem, can you try to find a more general class of problems it belongs to, and instead of solving each one individually, solve them as a group - or at least come up with a general recipe for the particular solutions.
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On March 06 2013 01:58 HardlyNever wrote:
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic but I was wondering what the general thought on what web-development falls under. I know some programmers that don't consider anything web-based as programming or coding, while others have a more mixed approach. In the broadest sense, it is programming in that you are telling a machine (a web browser) what to do, but it doesn't really do any heavy lifting like real programming does. To further muddy the waters there are things like php that are entirely web-based, but can be used to do "real" programming if needed.
I was wondering what everyone else's take on it was. As a web developer/designer I don't consider myself a "programmer" (even though I have taken programming courses), as that title can get pretty elitist, but I'm not sure what else it is besides "web developer," if anything.
I view even something like writing excel scripts as coding, so web development definitely falls under coding as well. On the other hand, I don't think of the web designer as programmers, as they requires somewhat of a different skill set, including artistic talents. Perhaps, one can view it as the difference between an engineer and a mathematician? Both of them uses plenty of math, but you won't ever call them the same job.
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On March 05 2013 19:13 dontgonearthecastle wrote:
On the other hand, I can't see how the programming skills would help f.e. a cashier in a supermarket (assuming she started working as a cashier, and then signed for the classes). He/she won't probably won't see any connection between the code and the thing he/she does every day (because there is a hell of a long road between a simple code and a cash systems working).
It might help her find work when the store switches to self-checkout or some RFID based system in a few years and lays off all the cashiers.
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On March 06 2013 06:23 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 19:13 dontgonearthecastle wrote:
On the other hand, I can't see how the programming skills would help f.e. a cashier in a supermarket (assuming she started working as a cashier, and then signed for the classes). He/she won't probably won't see any connection between the code and the thing he/she does every day (because there is a hell of a long road between a simple code and a cash systems working).
It might help her find work when the store switches to self-checkout or some RFID based system in a few years and lays off all the cashiers.
but why is "learn to code" the only "useful" thing anyone can think of to learn about these days? It's depressing. I don't want us to become a "nation of coders", that's super lame. Anyway, how many coding jobs can there really be? You gonna soak up all the technological unemployment with coding? I'm skeptical.
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I feel like my CS Professor wants to discourage us from delving into programming. Not literally but I mean I think he means to filter out people who were just curious about computer science and those who have a real knack for it. Some of the problems we tackle for homework gives me so much grief. I literally sit around for hours trying debug my program, only to have 3 more lined up behind that I need to complete before the night is over.
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On March 06 2013 06:40 Snuggles wrote:
I feel like my CS Professor wants to discourage us from delving into programming. Not literally but I mean I think he means to filter out people who were just curious about computer science and those who have a real knack for it. Some of the problems we tackle for homework gives me so much grief. I literally sit around for hours trying debug my program, only to have 3 more lined up behind that I need to complete before the night is over.
Weed out courses. Working as intended.
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EPT
