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On December 04 2012 02:09 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:59 MattBarry wrote:
Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2 There was an entire fucking progamer who distinguished himself on being the first guy who could beat BANELINGS with MARINES.
Not to take anything from MKP, but that's just unit control. Besides, he was not the only one, iirc first one I saw doing that was TheSTC during the beta. Anyway, BW and Sc2 are designed differently. They are both RTS, but the systems are different.
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Confession time: Whenever I hear balance complaints, I assume the complainer is as new to this site as SC2. BW was about adapting; the SC2 fan-base seems to favor complaining. And as a result of our complaining, we may never be forced to experiment with new and awesome strategies (for example, the ascension of the queen in TvZ and ZvZ that didn't occur until 2011 [about 10 years after the advent of BW progaming]). Sometimes, I miss BW  Especially Nukethestars.
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SC2 ain't Brood War, but I'll tell you one thing: Brood War was patched by maps. Every year there were new maps that forced players to rethink their style and encourage changes in the game. So much so that if we look back at a map like Nostalgia that seemed balanced in the past, we might have a completely different opinion of it now, as the game has changed to accommodate new tactics. Corsair DT was not some brilliant combo Bisu thought of either. It has been used since Brood War came out. Kill overlords, use DTs. But before, many maps didn't make it easy for Protoss to expand. Going corsair DT off one gas is not that easy, not nearly as effective as the free base Protoss get these days. And why did people start FEing as Toss? On Rush Hour, on Peaks of Baekdo... They liked the power, but they had to invest a lot in that expo. Then map makers made it way easier to defend it. Then more gas gave rise to a lot of new builds and macro styles we had never really seen before.
If SC2 wants to try changing the maps a little more than changing the base units, that would be interesting. How long have you guys played Cloud Kingdom? Are the maps really different enough to encourage different styles? It's risky, but it's what OSL did: new maps that force players to be different. You can't play Raid Assault like it's 815. SC2 maps are too samey for players to bother having unique builds for each of them, so they use the same deck of cards for everything.
It's true that whining about balance is annoying, but that's the kind of game SC2 is right now. People get their big unit combination, and if it doesn't beat their opponent's they don't know how else to win. The ball is still very important in SC2, and overtakes tactics that were more common in BW. Maybe SC2 should aspire to be BW, but it's gonna be hard given how narrow the mechanics of SC2 look right now.
But yeah: TLDR: people complained about maps all the time in BW, and it wasn't that unusual for people to just wait for maps to change instead of innovating. It was only the very best players who were going to win no matter what that overcame some of the maps that came out. And there have been some dousies that hardly anyone would argue were balanced. Maps that in proleague were pure mirror matchups they were so disliked.
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United States7166 Posts
Nice post I agree completely chef. For example right now with immortal/sentry allin, maps could easily fix this issue to become much more manageable for zergs, just by making areas close to their natural/3rd, more open. Like right now you cannot hope to beat it with roach/ling (assuming they are good w/ FF) unless you engage at certain wide areas, and that's not possible/difficult on many current maps like Ohana.
Unfortunately, given how Blizzard controls the ladder map pool, we don't have full control over what maps people usually play on and BW-like map solutions will be tough or maybe impossible. Tournaments can and do still use their own new maps, but it's tougher on players to practice all these different maps only in custom games for specific tournaments. Unless they are added by GSL, it's pretty hard.
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Yes, I think KeSPA or GSL proleague or whatever would have to tell their players these are the maps. That would put some pressure on Blizzard to at least adopt them.
If Blizzard had any sense tho, they'd introduce new maps every 4-6 months to keep their game fresh. We're not playing on a Chess board that never changes, and it was a critical factor in Brood War's longevity. I would find SC2 way more interesting if the maps were more radically different. Spectators want to see how pro's deal with such challenges. Sometimes it feels gimmicky, but it's worth it for the times it hits the nail on the head and you have a unique map that stays relevant for a year or two. The ones that don't work out you just throw out after 4 months and replace with something new. It's a good system we had in BW.
edit: oh, I had forgotten about this. It's basically what they are doing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382258
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I am so with you, brother. I think the community has become too involved with all aspects of the game. The map pool has been stale for months, but every new or interesting map that is posted is met with the same posts: "How do I take a third?!?!" or “Well this is a free win for X race. 100% veto”. I just want to scream "Figure it out or wait for the pros to do it. Everyone else will."
I would rather Blizzard and map makers just ignore the community for a while and stop feeding the monster. Map makes need to really break out of the mod and create some truly interesting maps that excite people. Professional players need to embrace these maps and get pumped to try new things, rather than whine about not being able to use their stand builds. And the community needs to be ignored for a while, for their own good.
And Balance threads. I think TL needs to shove those into a dark corner of the site and let us forget about them. At this point, they have become a blight, with the same people keeping them alive for months on end.
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The reaction "I don't deserve to lose - it must have been someone else's fault" is completely normal to feel on an individual level for just about every aspect of life. Many people realize eventually to look past it, but some never do. This is true in business, in education and in gaming. The problem with the internet is that it is so accessible and so global that everyone who has something to say on balance has an immediately accessible method of speaking to 'the world' about it. The problem is not the attitude itself (which is a natural defense mechanism) but that so many people insist on forcing their arguments on other people via the internet.
The problem is that while almost no one posts what I am sure is a much more common sentiment of "I don't know if the game is balanced or not" - everyone who deludes themselves into thinking that they have a clear view of game balance after losing to a 6-pool will post whatever they want about it, or to quote Bertrand Russell:
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
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On December 04 2012 03:27 Treehead wrote:
The reaction "I don't deserve to lose - it must have been someone else's fault" is completely normal to feel on an individual level for just about every aspect of life. Many people realize eventually to look past it, but some never do. This is true in business, in education and in gaming. The problem with the internet is that it is so accessible and so global that everyone who has something to say on balance has an immediately accessible method of speaking to 'the world' about it. The problem is not the attitude itself (which is a natural defense mechanism) but that so many people insist on forcing their arguments on other people via the internet.
The problem is that while almost no one posts what I am sure is a much more common sentiment of "I don't know if the game is balanced or not" - everyone who deludes themselves into thinking that they have a clear view of game balance after losing to a 6-pool will post whatever they want about it, or to quote Bertrand Russell:
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
So in Starcraft terms that means:
"The problem with community is that the terrible players assume they know why they lost, while the good players review replays to make sure."
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Imbalance is not a fundamental problem by itself, it could bring dynamic to the game. But bad design in the other hand is a more serious problem, for the game, for the players, for the spectators. I agree Zerg may not be that OP, nor that is unbeatable. But it remains that infestors are just ill-designed, and that's the problem Blizzard is hopfully going to fix in HOTS:
Nerf Infestor quite heavily
source:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5966979955
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United States15275 Posts
Zelniq I'd argue that SC2 has hit its endgame strategies pretty damn quickly, and it's nonsensical to think that its development has been similar to BW in terms of time. Part of this is due to the difference of mechanics but the most significant issue is that players already knew how BW ended up, and they accelerated the process when they transferred to SC2.
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United States7166 Posts
well of course sc2 develops far faster than BW did..there's no comparison. there's still something to be learned there though, especially for the newer community. i still think there's a lot remaining to be discovered however. perhaps yes as I've said before, broodlord/infestor vs protoss is just too unmanageable. and definitely poorly designed, even if it was manageable. nerfing it and giving zerg other options would be ideal, although I suspect zerg might have other options already, it's just the most effective one right now.
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On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that
As far as I remember, standard play in BW can still make great games. The standard builds in the current metagame for SC2 are incredibly boring in certain matchups.
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United States7166 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:07 calvinL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that As far as I remember, standard play in BW can still make great games. The standard builds in the current metagame for SC2 are incredibly boring in certain matchups.
I've made several edits to OP about this topic among other things. boring and terrible gameplay is a design issue and that wasn't what my post was about. i definitely feel that is a problem Blizzard needs to address, which they are doing a lot of in HotS beta it seems.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:07 Zelniq wrote:
well of course sc2 develops far faster than BW did..there's no comparison. there's still something to be learned there though, especially for the newer community. i still think there's a lot remaining to be discovered however. perhaps yes as I've said before, broodlord/infestor vs protoss is just too unmanageable. and definitely poorly designed, even if it was manageable. nerfing it and giving zerg other options would be ideal, although I suspect zerg might have other options already, it's just the most effective one right now.
True, but I don't think broodlord/infestor alone is the big problem that needs to be addressed. Protoss will still remain a poorly designed race that relies on timing attacks/turtling to be effective, and terran will still lack a way to properly transition into air units without being completely passive with their army.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Totally agree, the current trend in the community towards balance whining has been completely toxic.
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If the game was no longer balance patched (and ignoring future expansions), do you really think pros will still be having the same issues they have today, years down the line? that the game would look the same, and nobody would have figured anything out?
Yes. Sometimes issues in the metagame can be fixed by players, but not in this case. There currently IS a balance problem, Infestors are too good of a unit against everything while the Terran lategame options are not viable enough for example and here it is not in the hands of the players to find a solution, it is in the hands of the balance team. Also I am sick of watching Infestor Brood winning every single game, and sick of watching ZvZ every day.
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Zelniq
I agree with you, the amount of balance complaining in Sc2 right now is way too high right now. The amount of balance complaining in LR-threads completely takes away the purpose of LRs.
And personally, I really hate the term patchzerg, because the way it is used COMPLETELY excludes the possibility that those players have improved independent of patches.
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On December 04 2012 02:09 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:59 MattBarry wrote:
Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2 There was an entire fucking progamer who distinguished himself on being the first guy who could beat BANELINGS with MARINES.
Yeah. 2 years ago when everyone's mechanics were really bad because games ended in all ins far more often than macro games. It's different now, much different. Tip top pros, while you can have better mechanics, are more distinguished by more subtle things. Really even if it is balanced, it's pretty shitty to watch and play. I just stopped playing and watching because I hate PvZ so much.
Damn PvT and TvP is fun though
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On December 04 2012 01:23 Najda wrote:
I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable".
Solving the current balance problem does not solve the issue of the game being fundamentally broken and boring.
Sorry, but IT IS up to Blizzard to fix this game. We do not have private servers, nor the ability to patch the game ourselves. As much as we may play with the meta of this game, we are still trapped within the same boundaries set by the developers.
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On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that. well at least that's something we can all agree on Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that
Brood War in 2000 was actually fun. HotS right now (2 years after SC2, like BW in 2000) is not. That's because of boring gameplay and bad design. You can't fix that no matter how many innovative and amazing players get better at playing the game.
When ZvP was 55% in favour of Zerg on most maps, was it the same boring slow ass composition that beat Protoss every game? No.
When TvZ was 55% in favour of Terran, was it a boring deathball every game? No.
We've seen StarCraft 2 go from stupid all ins and colossus void ray to maxed out roach attacks and infestor broodlord. Yes, the strategies are changing, but they're all fucking boring so it doesn't matter. Because the game is fundamentally boring, without interesting tools. If you let people work with garbage, they're going to come up with garbage.
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