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United States7166 Posts
EDIT: Not saying the game's balanced or does not need patches. Maybe things like infestor/broodlord must definitely be patched, and even if protosses did figure out some way to play evenly vs it, it's still poor design and makes for very stale and tedious endgame. I'm just saying I think a lot of people should tend more towards the philosophy of problem solving given the tools they have within the game, and should look harder for those solutions, rather than have a defeatist mentality & demand a patch.
everyone looks to blizzard to balance the game, or blames blizzard on the current matchup/race problems. everyone's an expert on balance, especially people in stream chat. everyone looks at win-rate statistics, tournament race distributions, or even specific tournament results/lineups.
If the game was no longer balance patched (and ignoring future expansions), do you really think pros will still be having the same issues they have today, years down the line? that the game would look the same, and nobody would have figured anything out? How long have the current matchup problems even existed? not even 1 year..most are only a few months.
most pros right now are so busy training for or participating in the next tournament, using the same strategies/builds that others are, and don't have the time or will to really spend tons and tons of hours for possible solutions/new builds, and re-work their whole gameplay/re-learn all the new timings and defenses that they'd need to learn for any new build. How long did zergs struggle with the "unbeatable" void ray/colossus composition? How long did they just go roach/hydra/corruptor? IIRC, this was back when the infestor was stronger too (before fungal's damage nerf & NP nerf from 9 range to 7), and still it took forever for people to figure out that they were the answer. Even after infestors were used a lot, it still took a while for people to really start using lots of infested terrans, despite that skill always being available/unpatched/without research upgrade. And we're just talking about 1 specific, undiscovered unit that was the answer to a problem, not some more complex solution to a problem. How many years..how many times..did BW pros discover new builds, new strategies, new uses for units, new tactics/micro, new solutions..over the many years that BW was played at a super high level in a robust Korean professional scene, without a single balance patch happening? It took 5 years for someone to discover the simple, yet brilliant corsair/DT opening PvZ, when Bisu revolutioned PvZ vs Savior in the 2006 MSL Finals.
But since blizzard is still patching the balance, everyone keeps looking to blizzard for the solution or to blame them for their problems.
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But maybe people just need to realize that the solution is already in the game and just is waiting to be discovered. Maybe zergs don't have to take a super fast, gasless 3rd, so protoss has virtually nothing to worry about during their fragile early state and can go almost straight to their dreaded immortal/sentry timing. Maybe that's not the same build that would be used for 5 years if this game were in BW-like, patchless/expansionless state that it was for so long. Maybe Bisu or someone like him will revolutionize PvZ again. Maybe someone will figure out something more effective at dealing with infestor/broodlords. BW never stopped evolving..for 10 years of unpatched gameplay. and also maybe (some) people need to stop blaming every pvz or any match loss on imbalance, when it's usually player mistakes/decision-making/skill/buildorders that determines the outcome.
Or maybe you can just cry imba like everyone else and insist the only solution is to patch the game.
edit:
Not saying to wait 5 years for a solution to happen. it should be weeks/months, not years..for that. What I meant about 5 years is that people still came up with completely new strategies that revolutionized matchups 5+ years later. Just making a point that there's a lot to be discovered, and a lot to improve on as well.
Also note I'm talking about balance, NOT design. For years, since beta, I've been unhappy with many elements of sc2's design..probably moreso than anyone else. Colossus design, zealot charge, roaches, marauders, generic unit move speeds, and a ton more. But blizzard won't patch major design changes, that only comes through expansion and betas (although patch changes can effect some design or at least make for better/more interesting games.) Specifically I care most about how colossus forces players to play in very narrow, rigid style (mostly forcing air) and uninteresting gameplay. I think a ton of the problems in all matchups that have come up throughout sc2's history is all because of the colossus. But Blizzard showing some good signs they're improving design with stuff like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385868.
  
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On December 04 2012 00:57 Zelniq wrote:
Or maybe you can just cry imba like everyone else and 'quit SC2 until stupid blizzard patches this broken piece of shit game.'
Yeah, I think this is what I'm going to keep on doing.
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I still say MnM with science vessels is imba as hell.
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United States7166 Posts
yeah I've been hesitant to post this for some time now as I figured most want to just keep whining imba and would not see things the same as I do.
I realize there are a number of factors that lead to this feeling of imbalance when watching games: the ease of just sorta turning your brain off while listening to casters and watching stuff blow up, the limitation of the observer only showing a part of the game and potentially missing key deciding moments/mistakes, not having a high enough level of understanding of the game, the heavy influence casters have on the opinions of spectators of any specific game, and your own personal bias or experience on ladder. It's so much harder to avoid all those from affecting your opinion..much easier to just jump on the imba bandwagon.
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I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable".
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Thank god there are still some people thinking reasonably. I've taken so many precautions to stay unbiased and try to enjoy the games, but you know what? The reason SC2 is in a "unenjoyable state" is not because of the current gameplay, it's because of the general community response to it, which I grew tired of a long time ago. If anything, we're all following the legacy of the greatest RTS of all time (BW), and just look at how much it changed over its timespan with essentially zero patching, yet people keep saying that all hope is lost for SC2 after like 2 months of Zerg domination. Really? Not 3 months ago we had WCS Korea being completely slaughtered by Tosses alone, yet noone seems to remember that these days.
The volatility of SC2 makes the metagame change a hell of a lot faster than BW could ever hope to have done, and still everyone thinks Blizzard aint doing enough. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, I honestly couldn't care less, but good lord can people shut up about it already...
On December 04 2012 01:23 Najda wrote:
I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable".
pretty good summary
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It comes down to remembering how good and entertaining the games were and how shitty they seem to be now (and considering I really enjoyed bomber vs polt, I don't think I've lost interest in the game as a whole), I was watching a lot of sc2 not too long ago, now I find myself playing other games during premier tournaments, and why shouldn't I? There's only so much patience a person can have, it makes no sense to keep playing/watching sc2 when there's so much good stuff out there, with this in mind, 1 year seems like a whole decade.
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Pretty sure that most complaints are caused by the fact that the units / comps are stupid and boring and the games are stale as fuck, not the actual win-rate issues. Who cares if ZvP is 50/50 as long as every P win is an immortal timing and every Z win is a broodlord infestor turtle. Who cares if it's 'possible' for Terrans to win vs Z when 90% of Z wins are from spamming fungal growth.
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Yeah let's go back to post queen patch or even better post snipe patch and everything would be so much easier to just find a metagame that is fun to watch not impossible for terran in the lategame.
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On December 04 2012 01:29 IshinShishi wrote:
It comes down to remembering how good and entertaining the games were and how shitty they seem to be now
Oh yeah Steppes of War was really entertaining. That BitByBitPrime shit? My god I was on the edge of my seat.
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United States7166 Posts
On December 04 2012 01:39 Salazarz wrote:
Pretty sure that most complaints are caused by the fact that the units / comps are stupid and boring and the games are stale as fuck, not the actual win-rate issues. Who cares if ZvP is 50/50 as long as every P win is an immortal timing and every Z win is a broodlord infestor turtle. Who cares if it's 'possible' for Terrans to win vs Z when 90% of Z wins are from spamming fungal growth.
you keep using that word 'every'..as in how long have these things been going on?
do you think that players have already reached the maximum skill potential, and have figured out the very best possible strategies?
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I wish Protoss could use sentries in the late-game. But for some reason, it doesn't seem possible, I don't know why. Anyway we could wait YEARS before some some starcraft genius with 900 apm (because that's what you need to properly micro in starcraft 2) comes along and revolutionizes the game. Can this game survive years in its current state?
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Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that.
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You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene
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On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that.
well at least that's something we can all agree on
On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene
look at BW before you say that
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On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that. well at least that's something we can all agree on Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that
Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2
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On December 04 2012 01:59 MattBarry wrote:
Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2
There was an entire fucking progamer who distinguished himself on being the first guy who could beat BANELINGS with MARINES.
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All irrelevant. Let's say the game does become balanced on the own due to a meta change in 1 year but stays imbalanced for that duration. Is it worth it to not do anything about it? What about 10 years down the line? You don't know how the meta will change or how long it will take. Here is a fact: the game's meta changed and caused imbalances due to patches, so in my opinion, it should be corrected through a patch.
Now, it is okay to try and let the game develop on its own for a while, to see if any players come up with a solution, but after around 2 months it's time to do something about it so that people can actually compete and not hate it if they aren't a certain race.
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I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable".
Just like you're tired of people who balance complain, I'm equally tired of those who are tired of those who try to bring a non existent solution into play. Finding solutions is what top tier pros have been trying for the last six months since the queen patch came out and yet there is still no to beat them efficiently. They do not spend half of their time complaining, nor do they say that something is unbeatable, so your post is like an insult towards their effort. At a certain point, when the problem becomes obvious on a global scale in almost every game, you can feel that something is blatantly wrong with the design of game and blizzard SHOULD cooperate to fix it. It took them months to even recognize the design issues, and even now all they do is avoid it all together and just tweak unnecessary things such as raven seeker missile and IT eggs, which will have no impact on the game whatsoever. Worst of it all, their iron mindset of "statistics show us X, therefore the game is completely fine" is just incomprehensibly biased. That brings me to many questions. Has Browder ever sat down and watch some major tournament games from an observational standpoint? I'm seriously curious what he does in his daily life. If he has no time to give community the answers, then why do they refuse to hire more employees that can specifically work in this department?
From customer standpoint (and many other games), I just find their level of communication minimum to non-existent.Why can so many other game developers keep in contact with the community and yet somehow he cannot? Just by watching the forums I found out there's bare amount of blue posts per month, and even those have to do more about HoTS than WoL.
In the end this "keep complaining and don't change" is reaching to the point where starcraft2 can reach potentially low spectator numbers, which is bad for both sponsorships, advertisement, both of them indirectly affecting professional teams.
And to people who bring up the bisu's revolutionary corsair dt build vs zerg... are you forgetting that there's a significant difference between mechanics between the games, especially when zerg can defend early on with queens and spine/spores. There is a physical limit to how much income you can produce per base and how much production you can have compared to your opponent, and that is highly favoring zerg right now. BW had a lot of luck involved in balance, but I seriously cannot say the same for it's counterpart, just because it happened once does not mean it will happen again. As far as I'm concerned, the metagame is gradually more favored towards Z rather than balancing out.
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On December 04 2012 02:09 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:59 MattBarry wrote:
Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2 There was an entire fucking progamer who distinguished himself on being the first guy who could beat BANELINGS with MARINES.
Not to take anything from MKP, but that's just unit control. Besides, he was not the only one, iirc first one I saw doing that was TheSTC during the beta. Anyway, BW and Sc2 are designed differently. They are both RTS, but the systems are different.
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Confession time: Whenever I hear balance complaints, I assume the complainer is as new to this site as SC2. BW was about adapting; the SC2 fan-base seems to favor complaining. And as a result of our complaining, we may never be forced to experiment with new and awesome strategies (for example, the ascension of the queen in TvZ and ZvZ that didn't occur until 2011 [about 10 years after the advent of BW progaming]). Sometimes, I miss BW  Especially Nukethestars.
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SC2 ain't Brood War, but I'll tell you one thing: Brood War was patched by maps. Every year there were new maps that forced players to rethink their style and encourage changes in the game. So much so that if we look back at a map like Nostalgia that seemed balanced in the past, we might have a completely different opinion of it now, as the game has changed to accommodate new tactics. Corsair DT was not some brilliant combo Bisu thought of either. It has been used since Brood War came out. Kill overlords, use DTs. But before, many maps didn't make it easy for Protoss to expand. Going corsair DT off one gas is not that easy, not nearly as effective as the free base Protoss get these days. And why did people start FEing as Toss? On Rush Hour, on Peaks of Baekdo... They liked the power, but they had to invest a lot in that expo. Then map makers made it way easier to defend it. Then more gas gave rise to a lot of new builds and macro styles we had never really seen before.
If SC2 wants to try changing the maps a little more than changing the base units, that would be interesting. How long have you guys played Cloud Kingdom? Are the maps really different enough to encourage different styles? It's risky, but it's what OSL did: new maps that force players to be different. You can't play Raid Assault like it's 815. SC2 maps are too samey for players to bother having unique builds for each of them, so they use the same deck of cards for everything.
It's true that whining about balance is annoying, but that's the kind of game SC2 is right now. People get their big unit combination, and if it doesn't beat their opponent's they don't know how else to win. The ball is still very important in SC2, and overtakes tactics that were more common in BW. Maybe SC2 should aspire to be BW, but it's gonna be hard given how narrow the mechanics of SC2 look right now.
But yeah: TLDR: people complained about maps all the time in BW, and it wasn't that unusual for people to just wait for maps to change instead of innovating. It was only the very best players who were going to win no matter what that overcame some of the maps that came out. And there have been some dousies that hardly anyone would argue were balanced. Maps that in proleague were pure mirror matchups they were so disliked.
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United States7166 Posts
Nice post I agree completely chef. For example right now with immortal/sentry allin, maps could easily fix this issue to become much more manageable for zergs, just by making areas close to their natural/3rd, more open. Like right now you cannot hope to beat it with roach/ling (assuming they are good w/ FF) unless you engage at certain wide areas, and that's not possible/difficult on many current maps like Ohana.
Unfortunately, given how Blizzard controls the ladder map pool, we don't have full control over what maps people usually play on and BW-like map solutions will be tough or maybe impossible. Tournaments can and do still use their own new maps, but it's tougher on players to practice all these different maps only in custom games for specific tournaments. Unless they are added by GSL, it's pretty hard.
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Yes, I think KeSPA or GSL proleague or whatever would have to tell their players these are the maps. That would put some pressure on Blizzard to at least adopt them.
If Blizzard had any sense tho, they'd introduce new maps every 4-6 months to keep their game fresh. We're not playing on a Chess board that never changes, and it was a critical factor in Brood War's longevity. I would find SC2 way more interesting if the maps were more radically different. Spectators want to see how pro's deal with such challenges. Sometimes it feels gimmicky, but it's worth it for the times it hits the nail on the head and you have a unique map that stays relevant for a year or two. The ones that don't work out you just throw out after 4 months and replace with something new. It's a good system we had in BW.
edit: oh, I had forgotten about this. It's basically what they are doing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382258
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I am so with you, brother. I think the community has become too involved with all aspects of the game. The map pool has been stale for months, but every new or interesting map that is posted is met with the same posts: "How do I take a third?!?!" or “Well this is a free win for X race. 100% veto”. I just want to scream "Figure it out or wait for the pros to do it. Everyone else will."
I would rather Blizzard and map makers just ignore the community for a while and stop feeding the monster. Map makes need to really break out of the mod and create some truly interesting maps that excite people. Professional players need to embrace these maps and get pumped to try new things, rather than whine about not being able to use their stand builds. And the community needs to be ignored for a while, for their own good.
And Balance threads. I think TL needs to shove those into a dark corner of the site and let us forget about them. At this point, they have become a blight, with the same people keeping them alive for months on end.
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The reaction "I don't deserve to lose - it must have been someone else's fault" is completely normal to feel on an individual level for just about every aspect of life. Many people realize eventually to look past it, but some never do. This is true in business, in education and in gaming. The problem with the internet is that it is so accessible and so global that everyone who has something to say on balance has an immediately accessible method of speaking to 'the world' about it. The problem is not the attitude itself (which is a natural defense mechanism) but that so many people insist on forcing their arguments on other people via the internet.
The problem is that while almost no one posts what I am sure is a much more common sentiment of "I don't know if the game is balanced or not" - everyone who deludes themselves into thinking that they have a clear view of game balance after losing to a 6-pool will post whatever they want about it, or to quote Bertrand Russell:
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
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On December 04 2012 03:27 Treehead wrote:
The reaction "I don't deserve to lose - it must have been someone else's fault" is completely normal to feel on an individual level for just about every aspect of life. Many people realize eventually to look past it, but some never do. This is true in business, in education and in gaming. The problem with the internet is that it is so accessible and so global that everyone who has something to say on balance has an immediately accessible method of speaking to 'the world' about it. The problem is not the attitude itself (which is a natural defense mechanism) but that so many people insist on forcing their arguments on other people via the internet.
The problem is that while almost no one posts what I am sure is a much more common sentiment of "I don't know if the game is balanced or not" - everyone who deludes themselves into thinking that they have a clear view of game balance after losing to a 6-pool will post whatever they want about it, or to quote Bertrand Russell:
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
So in Starcraft terms that means:
"The problem with community is that the terrible players assume they know why they lost, while the good players review replays to make sure."
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Imbalance is not a fundamental problem by itself, it could bring dynamic to the game. But bad design in the other hand is a more serious problem, for the game, for the players, for the spectators. I agree Zerg may not be that OP, nor that is unbeatable. But it remains that infestors are just ill-designed, and that's the problem Blizzard is hopfully going to fix in HOTS:
Nerf Infestor quite heavily
source:
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5966979955
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United States15275 Posts
Zelniq I'd argue that SC2 has hit its endgame strategies pretty damn quickly, and it's nonsensical to think that its development has been similar to BW in terms of time. Part of this is due to the difference of mechanics but the most significant issue is that players already knew how BW ended up, and they accelerated the process when they transferred to SC2.
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United States7166 Posts
well of course sc2 develops far faster than BW did..there's no comparison. there's still something to be learned there though, especially for the newer community. i still think there's a lot remaining to be discovered however. perhaps yes as I've said before, broodlord/infestor vs protoss is just too unmanageable. and definitely poorly designed, even if it was manageable. nerfing it and giving zerg other options would be ideal, although I suspect zerg might have other options already, it's just the most effective one right now.
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On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that
As far as I remember, standard play in BW can still make great games. The standard builds in the current metagame for SC2 are incredibly boring in certain matchups.
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United States7166 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:07 calvinL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that As far as I remember, standard play in BW can still make great games. The standard builds in the current metagame for SC2 are incredibly boring in certain matchups.
I've made several edits to OP about this topic among other things. boring and terrible gameplay is a design issue and that wasn't what my post was about. i definitely feel that is a problem Blizzard needs to address, which they are doing a lot of in HotS beta it seems.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:07 Zelniq wrote:
well of course sc2 develops far faster than BW did..there's no comparison. there's still something to be learned there though, especially for the newer community. i still think there's a lot remaining to be discovered however. perhaps yes as I've said before, broodlord/infestor vs protoss is just too unmanageable. and definitely poorly designed, even if it was manageable. nerfing it and giving zerg other options would be ideal, although I suspect zerg might have other options already, it's just the most effective one right now.
True, but I don't think broodlord/infestor alone is the big problem that needs to be addressed. Protoss will still remain a poorly designed race that relies on timing attacks/turtling to be effective, and terran will still lack a way to properly transition into air units without being completely passive with their army.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Totally agree, the current trend in the community towards balance whining has been completely toxic.
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If the game was no longer balance patched (and ignoring future expansions), do you really think pros will still be having the same issues they have today, years down the line? that the game would look the same, and nobody would have figured anything out?
Yes. Sometimes issues in the metagame can be fixed by players, but not in this case. There currently IS a balance problem, Infestors are too good of a unit against everything while the Terran lategame options are not viable enough for example and here it is not in the hands of the players to find a solution, it is in the hands of the balance team. Also I am sick of watching Infestor Brood winning every single game, and sick of watching ZvZ every day.
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Zelniq
I agree with you, the amount of balance complaining in Sc2 right now is way too high right now. The amount of balance complaining in LR-threads completely takes away the purpose of LRs.
And personally, I really hate the term patchzerg, because the way it is used COMPLETELY excludes the possibility that those players have improved independent of patches.
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On December 04 2012 02:09 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:59 MattBarry wrote:
Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2 There was an entire fucking progamer who distinguished himself on being the first guy who could beat BANELINGS with MARINES.
Yeah. 2 years ago when everyone's mechanics were really bad because games ended in all ins far more often than macro games. It's different now, much different. Tip top pros, while you can have better mechanics, are more distinguished by more subtle things. Really even if it is balanced, it's pretty shitty to watch and play. I just stopped playing and watching because I hate PvZ so much.
Damn PvT and TvP is fun though
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On December 04 2012 01:23 Najda wrote:
I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable".
Solving the current balance problem does not solve the issue of the game being fundamentally broken and boring.
Sorry, but IT IS up to Blizzard to fix this game. We do not have private servers, nor the ability to patch the game ourselves. As much as we may play with the meta of this game, we are still trapped within the same boundaries set by the developers.
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On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that. well at least that's something we can all agree on Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that
Brood War in 2000 was actually fun. HotS right now (2 years after SC2, like BW in 2000) is not. That's because of boring gameplay and bad design. You can't fix that no matter how many innovative and amazing players get better at playing the game.
When ZvP was 55% in favour of Zerg on most maps, was it the same boring slow ass composition that beat Protoss every game? No.
When TvZ was 55% in favour of Terran, was it a boring deathball every game? No.
We've seen StarCraft 2 go from stupid all ins and colossus void ray to maxed out roach attacks and infestor broodlord. Yes, the strategies are changing, but they're all fucking boring so it doesn't matter. Because the game is fundamentally boring, without interesting tools. If you let people work with garbage, they're going to come up with garbage.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:40 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that. well at least that's something we can all agree on On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that Brood War in 2000 was actually fun. HotS right now (2 years after SC2, like BW in 2000) is not. That's because of boring gameplay and bad design. You can't fix that no matter how many innovative and amazing players get better at playing the game. When ZvP was 55% in favour of Zerg on most maps, was it the same boring slow ass composition that beat Protoss every game? No. When TvZ was 55% in favour of Terran, was it a boring deathball every game? No. We've seen StarCraft 2 go from stupid all ins and colossus void ray to maxed out roach attacks and infestor broodlord. Yes, the strategies are changing, but they're all fucking boring so it doesn't matter. Because the game is fundamentally boring, without interesting tools. If you let people work with garbage, they're going to come up with garbage.
BW in 2000 barely ever proceeded past 3 base. SC2 only advanced this far because it followed the same patterns as BW. Your comparison is irrelevant.
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I'll be honest, im sick of most of SC2 general and strategy i literally come on TL for General (Which can also be a pain but thats something else) and occasionally for some interesting blogs to read.
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On December 04 2012 05:47 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:40 vOdToasT wrote:On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that. well at least that's something we can all agree on On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that Brood War in 2000 was actually fun. HotS right now (2 years after SC2, like BW in 2000) is not. That's because of boring gameplay and bad design. You can't fix that no matter how many innovative and amazing players get better at playing the game. When ZvP was 55% in favour of Zerg on most maps, was it the same boring slow ass composition that beat Protoss every game? No. When TvZ was 55% in favour of Terran, was it a boring deathball every game? No. We've seen StarCraft 2 go from stupid all ins and colossus void ray to maxed out roach attacks and infestor broodlord. Yes, the strategies are changing, but they're all fucking boring so it doesn't matter. Because the game is fundamentally boring, without interesting tools. If you let people work with garbage, they're going to come up with garbage. BW in 2000 barely ever proceeded past 3 base. SC2 only advanced this far because it followed the same patterns as BW. Your comparison is irrelevant.
Wait, you’re telling us that BW took years to develop to the current level of depth and balance? Are you saying that BW 2000 is garbage compared to the current BW metagame? Madness.
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On December 04 2012 00:57 Zelniq wrote:
most pros right now are so busy training for or participating in the next tournament, using the same strategies/builds that others are, and don't have the time or will to really spend tons and tons of hours for possible solutions/new builds, and re-work their whole gameplay/re-learn all the new timings and defenses that they'd need to learn for any new build.
I've been saying this for a really long time and it's really good to hear someone with more experience in the scene echo it.
I really don't think we would have settled into the homogenization that we see in a lot of pro games if there was more time between tournaments to actually develop new strategies. In the end, the safer way to play the game as a professional is to continue with the status quo and let the chips fall where they may.
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I 100% agree with everythng you said.
On December 04 2012 01:59 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that. well at least that's something we can all agree on On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2
this made me chuckle.. you have no idea what you're talking about it comes to the first few years of BW
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On December 04 2012 01:44 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:39 Salazarz wrote:
Pretty sure that most complaints are caused by the fact that the units / comps are stupid and boring and the games are stale as fuck, not the actual win-rate issues. Who cares if ZvP is 50/50 as long as every P win is an immortal timing and every Z win is a broodlord infestor turtle. Who cares if it's 'possible' for Terrans to win vs Z when 90% of Z wins are from spamming fungal growth. you keep using that word 'every'..as in how long have these things been going on? do you think that players have already reached the maximum skill potential, and have figured out the very best possible strategies?
Who cares if the players have 'reached the maximum skill potential' or not? The games aren't fun to watch, and no matter how much better T gets at dealing with fungals (don't get me wrong, I'm sure they'll get better at it, eventually), it'll still be boring and frustrating to watch Infestors doing what they do, because the unit is inherently boring - just like sentries are boring, just like hellions will never be vultures.
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On December 04 2012 05:36 ktimekiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:23 Najda wrote:
I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable". Solving the current balance problem does not solve the issue of the game being fundamentally broken and boring. Sorry, but IT IS up to Blizzard to fix this game. We do not have private servers, nor the ability to patch the game ourselves. As much as we may play with the meta of this game, we are still trapped within the same boundaries set by the developers.
So stop complaining about balance and start complaining it's boring. Maybe you do personally, but the majority just cry imbalance.
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Canada11349 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:47 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 04 2012 05:40 vOdToasT wrote:On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that. well at least that's something we can all agree on On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that Brood War in 2000 was actually fun. HotS right now (2 years after SC2, like BW in 2000) is not. That's because of boring gameplay and bad design. You can't fix that no matter how many innovative and amazing players get better at playing the game. When ZvP was 55% in favour of Zerg on most maps, was it the same boring slow ass composition that beat Protoss every game? No. When TvZ was 55% in favour of Terran, was it a boring deathball every game? No. We've seen StarCraft 2 go from stupid all ins and colossus void ray to maxed out roach attacks and infestor broodlord. Yes, the strategies are changing, but they're all fucking boring so it doesn't matter. Because the game is fundamentally boring, without interesting tools. If you let people work with garbage, they're going to come up with garbage. BW in 2000 barely ever proceeded past 3 base. SC2 only advanced this far because it followed the same patterns as BW. Your comparison is irrelevant. Wait, you’re telling us that BW took years to develop to the current level of depth and balance? Are you saying that BW 2000 is garbage compared to the current BW metagame? Madness.
They may not be very skilled compared to 2010-11 pro-players, but the games are pretty entertaining (intentional present tense). This was the era of Boxer after all and very micro heavy. The problem is the battles were a little more in fits and starts as the macro/reinforcing was not as good as it was later. But there are all sorts of cool micro and multi-front battles and heavy drop play.
So perhaps rubbish skill-wise comparing the decade advance in skill. But not rubbish gameplay. And certainly not a rubbish spectacle or it never would have caught on as a spectating event.
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The biggest thing is that for many of us, the current metagame is flawed not because it requires more patching, but because Blizzard has been doing too much patching, such as buffing queen range.
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On December 04 2012 04:26 MCDayC wrote:
Totally agree, the current trend in the community towards balance whining has been completely toxic.
Absolutely. It's not Blizzard that's "killing the game" (lol) but a navel gazing community blind to their sense of entitlement. The most over-used words on TL are "bad design" and "fundamentally flawed". Good God, how many times have I read those words from the nth muppet on the forums convinced he is Moses bearing the tablets of the laws of great SC2 for the waiting masses.
The best thing for Blizzard to do is to ignore the community, and to live or die by their own work. Meanwhile, the community should get on with making the best of what they have. That said, I really do think Blizzard fucked up at the start of SC2 when they showed an over willingness to patch often and in haste. They satisfied and perpetuated an expectation that they would solve problems and smooth solutions, rather than letting players know, from the get-go, that it was in their hands.
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P seems more developed than T in this regard. Im not sure what a P can do to beat infestor/BL, as far as I know all units have been tried and anything but a huge group of 10+ well upgraded carriers seem to fall short (and GL getting there).
T though.... ravens and ghosts are extremely underused. Have the pro really sat down and tested either of those or both for weeks? Ghosts should in theory have very good chances of being cost efficient vs infestors, and once infestors are taken out or weakened, vikings spread nicely can beat BL/corruptor. Add 2-3 PDDs or more to that should push it even further in the Ts favor. People seem to forget about PDD. HSM is nice and all vs clumped units, but should zergs know how to spread their stuff, which they already kinda do, PDD is often a better option. And doesnt require as many ravens with as much energy since 1 raven can drop 2 PDDs.
Ts are marinetanking it up forever nowadays. I dont know how many times I've seen them do the same good old move out at 150-170 supply pre-hive. And often they dont even get to their tower because the maxed or almost maxed Z is right outside waiting to trade their lair army away. And even if T wins the first battle, Z remaxes and wins next. Marinetank only seem to win when the harassment is on top, making it possible for the inferior army to be so much bigger they win anyway. Have pro really tried ghosts and/or ravens?
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Some of these sentiments are just silly. Bad design resulted in significant imbalances that hurt the game as a competitive esport or even a viewing spectacle. For however poohpoohed theoryizing is quite a few early sentiments have been validated by time.
Do you think we would see more non-terran winners if the game hadn't been patched?
What about how balance influences map options? How would a smaller map, farther third or hell more rocks positively affect the game?
Honestly, the biggest problem is that moments of dominance aren't usually moments of brilliance in StarCraft II. 1/1/1... Hell where has Puma been lately? Bl/infestor... I could go on and on but how different is that doom army from Flash's 3/3 pushout? [Real question how many other zergs emulated Savior's style to dominant finishes ala bl/infest?]
Secondly a more basic problem is that how many micro fights do you see in the game?
What's the difference between  Light v  Tempest and Mvp v Squirtle?
+ Show Spoiler +
Many situations end up being binary even at the strategic level. Player A got a lead; does player B harass his way back into the game? Ok I'm drifting in design complaints.
Even at this point, you have to wonder the knock on effects of how what they changed affected what they originally intended to balance. Here I think of warp in storm and 25 mutas in a control group sauntering around. (Why does fungal have to snare air?)
Lastly, if we're at an advanced enough stage that we think every race is about balanced and some map features can cause some interesting strats to develop, how good are the map makers? Just think about the amount of dead airspace laying about sc2 maps for about 2 years. Then think about the number of BW maps with that flaw. The map maker's don't necessarily inspire a great deal of faith.
If you're going to have a community that revolves around discussing the game then don't complain when they talk about the warts. Patching is always too frequent until it isn't.
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