|
United States7166 Posts
EDIT: Not saying the game's balanced or does not need patches. Maybe things like infestor/broodlord must definitely be patched, and even if protosses did figure out some way to play evenly vs it, it's still poor design and makes for very stale and tedious endgame. I'm just saying I think a lot of people should tend more towards the philosophy of problem solving given the tools they have within the game, and should look harder for those solutions, rather than have a defeatist mentality & demand a patch.
everyone looks to blizzard to balance the game, or blames blizzard on the current matchup/race problems. everyone's an expert on balance, especially people in stream chat. everyone looks at win-rate statistics, tournament race distributions, or even specific tournament results/lineups.
If the game was no longer balance patched (and ignoring future expansions), do you really think pros will still be having the same issues they have today, years down the line? that the game would look the same, and nobody would have figured anything out? How long have the current matchup problems even existed? not even 1 year..most are only a few months.
most pros right now are so busy training for or participating in the next tournament, using the same strategies/builds that others are, and don't have the time or will to really spend tons and tons of hours for possible solutions/new builds, and re-work their whole gameplay/re-learn all the new timings and defenses that they'd need to learn for any new build. How long did zergs struggle with the "unbeatable" void ray/colossus composition? How long did they just go roach/hydra/corruptor? IIRC, this was back when the infestor was stronger too (before fungal's damage nerf & NP nerf from 9 range to 7), and still it took forever for people to figure out that they were the answer. Even after infestors were used a lot, it still took a while for people to really start using lots of infested terrans, despite that skill always being available/unpatched/without research upgrade. And we're just talking about 1 specific, undiscovered unit that was the answer to a problem, not some more complex solution to a problem. How many years..how many times..did BW pros discover new builds, new strategies, new uses for units, new tactics/micro, new solutions..over the many years that BW was played at a super high level in a robust Korean professional scene, without a single balance patch happening? It took 5 years for someone to discover the simple, yet brilliant corsair/DT opening PvZ, when Bisu revolutioned PvZ vs Savior in the 2006 MSL Finals.
But since blizzard is still patching the balance, everyone keeps looking to blizzard for the solution or to blame them for their problems.
~~~
But maybe people just need to realize that the solution is already in the game and just is waiting to be discovered. Maybe zergs don't have to take a super fast, gasless 3rd, so protoss has virtually nothing to worry about during their fragile early state and can go almost straight to their dreaded immortal/sentry timing. Maybe that's not the same build that would be used for 5 years if this game were in BW-like, patchless/expansionless state that it was for so long. Maybe Bisu or someone like him will revolutionize PvZ again. Maybe someone will figure out something more effective at dealing with infestor/broodlords. BW never stopped evolving..for 10 years of unpatched gameplay. and also maybe (some) people need to stop blaming every pvz or any match loss on imbalance, when it's usually player mistakes/decision-making/skill/buildorders that determines the outcome.
Or maybe you can just cry imba like everyone else and insist the only solution is to patch the game.
edit:
Not saying to wait 5 years for a solution to happen. it should be weeks/months, not years..for that. What I meant about 5 years is that people still came up with completely new strategies that revolutionized matchups 5+ years later. Just making a point that there's a lot to be discovered, and a lot to improve on as well.
Also note I'm talking about balance, NOT design. For years, since beta, I've been unhappy with many elements of sc2's design..probably moreso than anyone else. Colossus design, zealot charge, roaches, marauders, generic unit move speeds, and a ton more. But blizzard won't patch major design changes, that only comes through expansion and betas (although patch changes can effect some design or at least make for better/more interesting games.) Specifically I care most about how colossus forces players to play in very narrow, rigid style (mostly forcing air) and uninteresting gameplay. I think a ton of the problems in all matchups that have come up throughout sc2's history is all because of the colossus. But Blizzard showing some good signs they're improving design with stuff like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385868.
  
|
On December 04 2012 00:57 Zelniq wrote:
Or maybe you can just cry imba like everyone else and 'quit SC2 until stupid blizzard patches this broken piece of shit game.'
Yeah, I think this is what I'm going to keep on doing.
|
I still say MnM with science vessels is imba as hell.
|
United States7166 Posts
yeah I've been hesitant to post this for some time now as I figured most want to just keep whining imba and would not see things the same as I do.
I realize there are a number of factors that lead to this feeling of imbalance when watching games: the ease of just sorta turning your brain off while listening to casters and watching stuff blow up, the limitation of the observer only showing a part of the game and potentially missing key deciding moments/mistakes, not having a high enough level of understanding of the game, the heavy influence casters have on the opinions of spectators of any specific game, and your own personal bias or experience on ladder. It's so much harder to avoid all those from affecting your opinion..much easier to just jump on the imba bandwagon.
|
I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable".
|
Thank god there are still some people thinking reasonably. I've taken so many precautions to stay unbiased and try to enjoy the games, but you know what? The reason SC2 is in a "unenjoyable state" is not because of the current gameplay, it's because of the general community response to it, which I grew tired of a long time ago. If anything, we're all following the legacy of the greatest RTS of all time (BW), and just look at how much it changed over its timespan with essentially zero patching, yet people keep saying that all hope is lost for SC2 after like 2 months of Zerg domination. Really? Not 3 months ago we had WCS Korea being completely slaughtered by Tosses alone, yet noone seems to remember that these days.
The volatility of SC2 makes the metagame change a hell of a lot faster than BW could ever hope to have done, and still everyone thinks Blizzard aint doing enough. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, I honestly couldn't care less, but good lord can people shut up about it already...
On December 04 2012 01:23 Najda wrote:
I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable".
pretty good summary
|
It comes down to remembering how good and entertaining the games were and how shitty they seem to be now (and considering I really enjoyed bomber vs polt, I don't think I've lost interest in the game as a whole), I was watching a lot of sc2 not too long ago, now I find myself playing other games during premier tournaments, and why shouldn't I? There's only so much patience a person can have, it makes no sense to keep playing/watching sc2 when there's so much good stuff out there, with this in mind, 1 year seems like a whole decade.
|
Pretty sure that most complaints are caused by the fact that the units / comps are stupid and boring and the games are stale as fuck, not the actual win-rate issues. Who cares if ZvP is 50/50 as long as every P win is an immortal timing and every Z win is a broodlord infestor turtle. Who cares if it's 'possible' for Terrans to win vs Z when 90% of Z wins are from spamming fungal growth.
|
Yeah let's go back to post queen patch or even better post snipe patch and everything would be so much easier to just find a metagame that is fun to watch not impossible for terran in the lategame.
|
On December 04 2012 01:29 IshinShishi wrote:
It comes down to remembering how good and entertaining the games were and how shitty they seem to be now
Oh yeah Steppes of War was really entertaining. That BitByBitPrime shit? My god I was on the edge of my seat.
|
United States7166 Posts
On December 04 2012 01:39 Salazarz wrote:
Pretty sure that most complaints are caused by the fact that the units / comps are stupid and boring and the games are stale as fuck, not the actual win-rate issues. Who cares if ZvP is 50/50 as long as every P win is an immortal timing and every Z win is a broodlord infestor turtle. Who cares if it's 'possible' for Terrans to win vs Z when 90% of Z wins are from spamming fungal growth.
you keep using that word 'every'..as in how long have these things been going on?
do you think that players have already reached the maximum skill potential, and have figured out the very best possible strategies?
|
I wish Protoss could use sentries in the late-game. But for some reason, it doesn't seem possible, I don't know why. Anyway we could wait YEARS before some some starcraft genius with 900 apm (because that's what you need to properly micro in starcraft 2) comes along and revolutionizes the game. Can this game survive years in its current state?
|
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that.
|
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene
|
On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that.
well at least that's something we can all agree on
On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene
look at BW before you say that
|
On December 04 2012 01:53 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:47 HollowLord wrote:
Stop yelling at Blizzard about balance, let's go back to yelling at them about LAN. Because if anything ruins the game it's that. well at least that's something we can all agree on Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:52 MattBarry wrote:
You're right, let's wait 5 years for a solution to maybe happen. Have fun watching with the 10 people left still interested in the scene look at BW before you say that
Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2
|
On December 04 2012 01:59 MattBarry wrote:
Too bad this game isn't brood war so looking at it would be pointless. In the first few years of brood war you could distinguish yourself solely on mechanics. That's not really possible in sc2
There was an entire fucking progamer who distinguished himself on being the first guy who could beat BANELINGS with MARINES.
|
|
|
All irrelevant. Let's say the game does become balanced on the own due to a meta change in 1 year but stays imbalanced for that duration. Is it worth it to not do anything about it? What about 10 years down the line? You don't know how the meta will change or how long it will take. Here is a fact: the game's meta changed and caused imbalances due to patches, so in my opinion, it should be corrected through a patch.
Now, it is okay to try and let the game develop on its own for a while, to see if any players come up with a solution, but after around 2 months it's time to do something about it so that people can actually compete and not hate it if they aren't a certain race.
|
I am equally tired of all the balance complaints. If people spent half the time they did complaining on trying to figure out a solution, we'd probably have a more balanced game. We need more "How do we beat this" instead of "This is unbeatable".
Just like you're tired of people who balance complain, I'm equally tired of those who are tired of those who try to bring a non existent solution into play. Finding solutions is what top tier pros have been trying for the last six months since the queen patch came out and yet there is still no to beat them efficiently. They do not spend half of their time complaining, nor do they say that something is unbeatable, so your post is like an insult towards their effort. At a certain point, when the problem becomes obvious on a global scale in almost every game, you can feel that something is blatantly wrong with the design of game and blizzard SHOULD cooperate to fix it. It took them months to even recognize the design issues, and even now all they do is avoid it all together and just tweak unnecessary things such as raven seeker missile and IT eggs, which will have no impact on the game whatsoever. Worst of it all, their iron mindset of "statistics show us X, therefore the game is completely fine" is just incomprehensibly biased. That brings me to many questions. Has Browder ever sat down and watch some major tournament games from an observational standpoint? I'm seriously curious what he does in his daily life. If he has no time to give community the answers, then why do they refuse to hire more employees that can specifically work in this department?
From customer standpoint (and many other games), I just find their level of communication minimum to non-existent.Why can so many other game developers keep in contact with the community and yet somehow he cannot? Just by watching the forums I found out there's bare amount of blue posts per month, and even those have to do more about HoTS than WoL.
In the end this "keep complaining and don't change" is reaching to the point where starcraft2 can reach potentially low spectator numbers, which is bad for both sponsorships, advertisement, both of them indirectly affecting professional teams.
And to people who bring up the bisu's revolutionary corsair dt build vs zerg... are you forgetting that there's a significant difference between mechanics between the games, especially when zerg can defend early on with queens and spine/spores. There is a physical limit to how much income you can produce per base and how much production you can have compared to your opponent, and that is highly favoring zerg right now. BW had a lot of luck involved in balance, but I seriously cannot say the same for it's counterpart, just because it happened once does not mean it will happen again. As far as I'm concerned, the metagame is gradually more favored towards Z rather than balancing out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
