EPTWe Are Creating 22 Year Old Children - Page 2
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
I think you've really stretched to say people learn no skills in university or are put under no pressure. I didn't know many people in university who did not have a job as the same time. I didn't know many people who weren't hungry for independence from their parents either. It's not fun to have to rely on one's parents, it makes you feel like you can't survive on your own. But this is the state of our depressing economy. You have to volunteer for a million hours, have great grades and work experience to even think about getting a normal job. Unless you are some lucky idiot who happens to know the right person. I don't know whether your graduated university or not, or whether you're still in high school, but this has all the persuasiveness of the grade 9 essays I have to mark. OK good, you did a tiny bit of research to support your claims. The problem is they don't support them very well, and your opinion is controversial enough that it really needs a lot. I'd give it a B if you were a kid, but 40% for an adult because it shows a lack of critical thinking. All you're doing is pointing to a random fact whether it really supports what you're saying or not, and then saying the opinion you had before you found the fact. Ok, you found evidence of how much money it costs and how old people are when they leave university. What does that have to do with what they've learned? The majority of the time is not spent in class? Well, 15 hours a week normally. + transit. + homework. Depending on your degree, that can be a lot of homework. Depending on if you care about GPA and want a job, it doesn't even matter what your degree is because you need to do better than everyone else in your degree. It's way more work than you think, certainly much more than I'd ask from any high school student. edit: actually you didn't even use your first source properly. You reference it (an online newpaper article, a terrible source by the way) to say that graduates are going in unrelated fields for white collar jobs. That's not what the graph in your link is saying -.- It is saying EVEN with an education, those people under 30 have no yet found work related to their skills, so they're working a grocery stores and stuff (I guess some of that could be called white collar, but a lot of it is manual labour). So wow, what a bunch of 22 year old children we have that can't find good work, don't they have it easy! Basically people working the same job they had during university zz And you are trying to say the problem is we aren't teaching them any life skills! Well welcome to the reality of Canada, it's not education that is the problem... | ||
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ETisME
12632 Posts
You need experience to get job, You need job for experience. But the truth is, you also need a certificate, minimal degree, to even consider working in a company. Sure we have people like me who just want to pass and get the paper to get into the labour force, but university is also a great time to expand your connections and learning. university is much more than just trying to get a paper | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 03 2012 18:12 Shottaz wrote: From my limited economic experience, I was under the impression that money moving around the system (full time work) was better for the economy than low income students... This is horrible logic. By this logic, we should never educate anyone and just make people work and pay taxes as soon as they are physically able. From an economic standpoint, education improves production and output later on in life. It's a trade-off between some production starting right away or a lot of production starting a little later. Furthermore, those that say that they learned nothing at college and didn't need to work hard are quite naive. This is only the case if 1) You went to a terrible school (and will get a crappy job because of this) 2) You Didn't graduate 3) You don't understand the benefits of a college degree. If your future is in some kind of management, your bachelor's isn't simply about learning "how to manage". College isn't a trade school. You learn how to network, how to interact with professional peers and superiors in an adult setting, your writing, speaking, and analytic skills improve significantly (especially if you get a degree in the humanities). There are a large number of less tangible benefits that are also far more beneficial than "I learned how to do X procedure". | ||
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Iranon
United States983 Posts
On December 03 2012 15:27 Enki wrote: You left out trade schools. We will still need welders, plumbers, and metalworkers for quite a ways into the future, and yet all people talk about is going to a 4 year school and getting a degree. We have plenty of people already who have them, the labor shortages in the future will probably be from manual labor trades. Some high schools are already teaching this but it should be an option for all students. Not everyone wants to have their faces shoved in textbooks all day, they should have more options. This is very relevant. Not everyone needs to go to college, and not everyone should go to college. A good chunk of my students, while I'm sure they're lovely people, are wasting everyone's time by getting a four-year liberal arts degree. I don't know why there's such a social stigma in the US against going to trade schools, but they are a fantastic opportunity. For most jobs, a college education is only indirectly (if at all) useful: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20100128.gif) And as a result of everyone going to college unecessarily, an undergraduate degree is a meaningless minimum expectation: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120909.gif) | ||
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meteorskunk
Canada546 Posts
In his speech he tells the story of a very memorable dirty job he had castrating sheep. It illustrates how in the first world, the mentality the culture teaches us to bring to work place is misguided. You see, he learned through research that the most efficient and humaine way to castrate the sheep was to use an elastic band to (i extrapolate) constrict blood flow to the animal's testicles. When he gets to the job, the man who castrates sheep for a living has a different method. He uses his teeth to grip the scrotum and pull the testicles off. The guy from dirty jobs is like "no, we can't do that; it's inhumaine. we should do it with the elastic bands." It turns out the elastic bands actually fuck up the lamb and make it suffer for a week, while the teeth method actually causes minimal suffering. What we learn from this is that our ideals of proper work are fallible. Maybe safety first and excuse from hardship are not the right mentality to approach work with. That is however, what we are currently doing. So basically hes saying "work is not about following your passion. It is about actually learning what WORKS" One idea I want to bring to the table is that many of us seem hooked on "instant gratification." Early on we learned that some really nice things come somewhat easily. Is is possible to shake that addiction? Kids get addicted to good cooking, good cleaning and lack of responsibility. They can only escape it for so long. The main message I would send to these people (myself included) is stop being a pussy and thinking that your intellect and your reasoning is the answer for everything life has. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Your brother sounds exactly like mine. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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meteorskunk
Canada546 Posts
On December 04 2012 00:27 Shady Sands wrote: Wouldn't you rather have a society of children than a society of adults though? Kids are so easy to lie to and boss around They're more playful and funny and actually have fun too | ||
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brian
United States9636 Posts
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meteorskunk
Canada546 Posts
On December 04 2012 00:41 Gene wrote: the assumption that a person born into money being handed everything causes them to have any weaker a character or less responsibility is abhorrent. the apparent disrespect for them is misplaced and rude. while there is a point under the unnecessary over generalization, you're doing well off people an injustice. wealth, especially not the upper middle class wealth you are seemingly targeting, does not make people irresponsible. your write up explicitly attacks irresponsibility indiscriminately while you cite sources and takes a drastic turn when you let your judgement do the talking. I agree with you but I think your response is more related to your own interpretation than to the actual text. In my reading, the piece is not about wealth or lack of wealth. It is about how university is often just a refuge from the real responsibilities that most adults will eventually face. | ||
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brian
United States9636 Posts
I guess it is just a one sentence flippant afterthought. tainted the rest for me when I read it again. | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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Shottaz
United Kingdom414 Posts
On December 03 2012 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote: This is horrible logic. By this logic, we should never educate anyone and just make people work and pay taxes as soon as they are physically able. That is not what I said. I was basically highlighting this... http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0210/money-makes-the-economy-move.aspx#axzz2E0PdyAP1 Obviously it is rediculous to have someone work as soon as they are physically able unless your economy is foccussed on simple manufacturing. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32105 Posts
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
Society should either call it what it is (an extension of high school) or actually make university exclusive and prestigious again. @infinity21: I also am a Canadian graduate who worked his way through university and came out with no debt. That doesn't make what the OP says less true. PS: I also enjoyed the SoR reference | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
Its fairly accurate if a bit harsh. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On December 04 2012 01:01 infinity21 wrote: I'm a Canadian university student who paid his own way through university and made it through with minimal debt (<$500) even with very little government subsidies and an expensive trip to Asia this past summer. I'm graduating in a few weeks and have a decently paying job lined up in the field of my study. The majority of my free time is spent taking online courses to further my knowledge. While not everyone will fit all the same criteria, if you give a damn about school, you'll be able to achieve many of these things. I think you might be a minority or taking a degree involving computers lol.. I guess there are tonnes and tonnes of Psychology undergrads just coasting by writing multiple choice tests that might make up a large portion of the statistic of BA's working jobs that aren't suited to their education. If you were sensible or well advised when you were 16-18, you might have planned your life a little better and gotten a degree in a field that has demand for workers. Of course there is also the factor that more people are getting degrees than ever before, thinking it is the only way to any kind of success in life. But I think that the education is valuable, so I wouldn't say it is a bad thing more people are being educated even if they don't all necessarily work a high paying job. The crux is that because you saved up so much money to pay for your education, you really want some monetary payback than just 'oh I am better informed in this area now.' The hope of all people who send their kids to university and the university students themselves is that they will have a more prosperous future. University really needs to cost a little less considering it doesn't get you as far anymore. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
Spent two years working in the Army before university, don't skip classes, manage my own money, etc. I disagree with your stereotypes, basically, and your use of them (an inaccurate one too, SoR is a freshman, not a graduate) to build your conclusion. | ||
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