EPTIt finally hit me: Why GSL streams look washed out - Page 3
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
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KMM
11 Posts
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On December 03 2012 23:46 KMM wrote: of course will there be increases in costs, but as these formats standardize costs decrease, till the next new format comes to increase it again xD My comments about costs are specific to the production costs to the studios making the content. Unlike in manufacturing, there are not economies of scale that make it substantially cheaper to do the 100th time than the first. Also, as I pointed out, there are specific technological dynamics in visual effects that tend to undo the decreases in storage and CPU cost over time*. There may be a point where the work doesn't expand to fill available resources, but we're a long way from it. If we're talking about the consumer electronics world, that's a very different question and the barriers are more about standardization and regulators not wanting to render people's existing products obsolete. * For example, in 1999 I worked briefly on a major summer effects-driven movie project I won't name (because for reasons beyond our team's control our company at the time walked away from the project and it went elsewhere.) That film had 271 visual effects shots in the entire movie. Today, a similar movie would contain over 1000. The rendering technologies we use today (which include lots of raytracing and using things like high dynamic range environment maps to light the scene) were unthinkable then, because the computers were 100x slower. Also, clients demand progressively increased complexity and doing more and more of the work in post to save production costs. My colleagues and I sometimes stop to wonder if, in our careers, we'll hit a point where rendering technology is no longer CPU limited. This would be characterized by fully photorealistic lighting in real-time. I do not know, but I suspect not -- some images today take 48 hours or more to render, so even with judicious application of preview modes and so on we need another factor of maybe 1000 in performance, and that assumes that someone doesn't come up with the much better alternative technique that's 1000x slower. | ||
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KMM
11 Posts
You can cluster the whole network together to do the processing, that would also speed it up. Real-Time Rendering... hmm... i guess we'll see in the future, some computer games do a really good job with hdr for example but for now its like you say, massive rendering time involved | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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renkin
France249 Posts
Adjusting for broadcast levels shouldn't give you this washed out look. If it's not from the camera or the crew, I'd say this looks like typical h264 over-compression ( for streaming, not VOD ). It literraly destroys contrast by compressing the luminance channel if you're not very carefull with the settings... and SC2 is a nightmare for encoders : details in motion everywhere, fast pan from observers, zooms... Since it's impossible to specifically fine-tune the encoder for certain scenes ( you wouldn't encode with the same settings a baneling bust and a TvT position war ) I believe they chose the least worst settings they could find that could garantee that a 200 vs 200 battle doesn't look like 4 rectangles moving around. This also explains why the problem is less visible in their VODs. I personally don't mind having a less contrasty image in the stream ( which will be the most visible with non-sc2 footage ) if it can make the in-game visual more pleasant. Random ideas : I don't know what the workflow is in gom tv but since they are working with different kind of footage ( in game + standart camera ) they should treat it differently. For exemple, capturing at 60fps motion for in-game sc2 footage and regular the 25fps for non-in game footage. That way, the game looks much more alive, and you don't get the sitcom look with the interviews. Also, since they are able to control the what the game looks like before capturing, they could maybe tweak the graphic driver to optimize the footage to get the maximum of details so thhey have more freedom in color correction later on. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:52 renkin wrote: Adjusting for broadcast levels shouldn't give you this washed out look. I agree, it is a worse problem than you would get if that were the only issue. Failing to adjust for broadcast levels will give you a washed-out look, however that doesn't mean that there isn't more going on. Like I mentioned, the histogram for the image did start at 17, which is a pretty good smoking gun pointing at broadcast levels as at least some of the problem, but most of the darks in the image were well above that level, so there might be multiple stages of mis-encoding going on. | ||
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renkin
France249 Posts
On December 05 2012 05:26 Lysenko wrote: Failing to adjust for broadcast levels will give you a washed-out look, however that doesn't mean that there isn't more going on. . I agree there is definitly something else. It might look fine on a korean TV network but if we, internet users, get this version and not a optimized one for PC monitors then there is a workflow problem somewhere. Stop making me think about work on TL !  | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On the topic of cinematic frame rates, here's how reviewers are reacting to a 48 fps screening of The Hobbit. Interesting stuff!! http://www.studiodaily.com/2012/12/the-hobbits-hfr-reviews-are-in-and-theyre-not-so-good/ | ||
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Stipulation
United States587 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
On December 05 2012 06:54 Lysenko wrote: On the topic of cinematic frame rates, here's how reviewers are reacting to a 48 fps screening of The Hobbit. Interesting stuff!! http://www.studiodaily.com/2012/12/the-hobbits-hfr-reviews-are-in-and-theyre-not-so-good/ wow, cant wait to see this. but it sounds like my probably shitty cinema might not be equipped to display it in full frame rate.. and you say we're already watching a lot of things in high frame rate anyway? i wonder what Planet Earth (dvd) and the Final Fantasy Advent Children movie (various) were produced in (some of the scenes in that were ridiculous) | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On December 05 2012 13:43 FFGenerations wrote: and you say we're already watching a lot of things in high frame rate anyway? We are not. Unless it was live television, just about all content you see out there today was shot at 24 fps and is being played back either at 24 fps or 25 fps depending on country. Live television is often shot at 60 frames per second progressive or 60 fields per second, interlaced. IMAX movies can be presented at 24, 30, or 60 fps. | ||
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KMM
11 Posts
all live shows and sports events are High Frame Rate only problem with HFR people are so much used to stuttery shitty 24fps that they consider something other bad... | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On December 05 2012 15:53 KMM wrote: 720p channels use 60 progressive frames,... all live shows and sports events are High Frame Rate only problem with HFR people are so much used to stuttery shitty 24fps that they consider something other bad... I don't know why I keep screwing that 720p frame rate up. As for whether 24 is better, I love it, but hey, I'm a motion picture person. | ||
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KMM
11 Posts
And if the end user is not satisfied, he could just activate the "cripple back to 24fps" feature haha @gom im trying to get hold of one of those GSL finals in 1080i again to add some screenshots | ||
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aike
United States1629 Posts
 Good times.I would just like to point out that GomTV is internet TV. They don't broadcast in a form that you would get on your TV, unless of course you went through your PC. So it's not like gom needs to worry about broadcasting in a specific way to keep it good on TVs, because no matter what it's gonna have a PC/Mac that it's running through first. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On December 05 2012 19:09 KMM wrote: Lets be honest, whatever you may think about it, HFR is better (objective). Any judgment on this is subjective. That's why that article I just posted is full of people who dislike it. Anyway, we've gone way off-topic on this thread. Maybe it would be best if you start a new blog of your own for arguing about high frame rates and we can move the conversation there? | ||
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drazak
United States479 Posts
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
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15KSpec
United Kingdom1 Post
Twitch.tv - washed out colours Youtube - nice! | ||
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