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1: The community is dissatisfied with StarCraft 2
2: This leads to drama
3: Investors see that the community is dissatisfied with the game, and decide not to invest.
The main problem? The game is fucking bad.
If the game was better, the community wouldn't be so dissatisfied. So why should they invest?
When StarCraft 1 was new, before big sponsorships, there were bums living in small apartments together, playing StarCraft all day, barely making enough money to pay rent and buy food. Because they loved the game. The community loved the game. Investors saw this and a market was created in Korea that stayed for quite a long time. Corporations like SK Telecom and CJ spent millions of dollars on their teams, because it was worth it. They are corporations - money making machines. They're not gonna spend money on something that won't get them any return.
But since people don't have that kind of passion for StarCraft 2, since people don't like it that much, investing in it doesn't seem as lucrative.
The product itself is the problem. The drama in the community is a result of the shitty product. Why would you invest in a shitty product?
Edit: CJ is a food company, and SK Telecom is a telephone company.
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You know...it seems every one here and their grandma wants this ESports thingy to blow up however for all the threads I see of this, you all fail to realize something very crucial. ESports as you like to call it will never reach the level of mainstream of any true sport for precisely one reason....Sex appeal. Even if we widen our scope to include other forms of entertainment like music and movies, this also applies. Think about it.....practically every young pretty thing out there would trip over themselves if the opportunity to fuck Brad Pitt, or Muhammed Ali(in his prime of course) presented itself. The same stands true for men with women like Jessica Alba or Danica Patrick. No one dreams about fuckin Destiny or Ret. If you guys are really serious about wanting this thing to blow up and take the world by storm, you have to bring some sexy into it. You cannot escape this reality.
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On October 25 2012 04:53 pigmanbear wrote:
This is not what a potential investor sees in Starcraft, because no serious investor is getting their first introduction via a Reddit page. They see the tournaments and the enthusiasm there, or they see live streams, because that's where the fans and players interact most.
You should've made the title of this post: How to be terrible at courting investors. No sane person would bring somebody to Reddit or even the TL forums first because while these things are valuable to the community, they offer absolutely no value in the way of exposure for an investor or any other sort of business opportunity. You show the largest upcoming tournament and some well-designed team websites, and you go from there.
Unless you have experience running a business (some of us here do), you're talking out of your ass, sorry. And no amount of business-speak on top of it changes that.
Besides the point, why would an invoicing/IT company invest in Starcraft unless it were big and really relevant to Average Joe business owners (like BW was in Korea)? I've considered investing in some small SC2 teams because I sell some small consumer software products (B2C, your father is in B2B almost certainly) and I could arguably drive sales with adverts on SC2 streams and such, but there's just no intersection with your father's business. He was just humoring you because you spend a lot of time on the game.
No it's not just B2B(but mainly yes, small business from here to switserland with almost 3 million paid users. It's a invoice program developed for everyone who for example have a website they need their invoice taken care of aswell as a "budget" application nice to anyone who's looking to get more control of their economy.
And the fact that I showed him reddit was a mistake without a doubt. Also said so in the OP. But that wasn't the final blow for him. But didn't think I should hang out the persons (progamers) who sounded childish even tho their working in one of the biggest teams in Esports. And that's partly (big deal) of why we went the way we did. When the community managers of said teams act like kids in a big mainstream community like ours. Via Twitter, Reddit, Teamliquid and their own page. Feeding the drama is looked down from any investor/sponsors POV.
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On October 25 2012 05:42 vOdToasT wrote:
1: The community is dissatisfied with StarCraft 2
2: This leads to drama
3: Investors see that the community is dissatisfied with the game, and decide not to invest.
The main problem? The game is fucking bad.
If the game was better, the community wouldn't be so dissatisfied. So why should they invest?
When StarCraft 1 was new, before big sponsorships, there were bums living in small apartments together, playing StarCraft all day, barely making enough money to pay rent and buy food. Because they loved the game. The community loved the game. Investors saw this and a market was created in Korea that stayed for quite a long time. Corporations like SK Telecom and CJ spent millions of dollars on their teams, because it was worth it. They are corporations - money making machines. They're not gonna spend money on something that won't get them any return.
But since people don't have that kind of passion for StarCraft 2, since people don't like it that much, investing in it doesn't seem as lucrative.
The product itself is the problem. The drama in the community is a result of the shitty product. Why would you invest in a shitty product?
Edit: CJ is a food company, and SK Telecom is a telephone company.
Well than shouldn't the community be more positive for new investors not coming from gaming peripherals like CJ and SKT?
Think of all the million dollars we could have if more businesses sponsor Esports.
Just our relatively "small" business could have grinded up alot of money for investing. Made a site like playhem for example etc etc. A playhem daily nr 2 wouldn't have costed 10% of what we could have invested for example. (not saying we would have started a playhem nr 2. But we could have. And more small tournaments = more money for everyone.
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The NASL, IPL and MLG do not make a profit. MLG and the NASL operate because of investor capital, both are trying to grow to a profitable state but it's still a ways off. IPL is more of a brand thing, IGN does not want to miss out on esports if it does potentially blow up. From your perspective there is no RoI in creating a new league. You would be creating something that would lose money basically the entire team, with the hopes that it would eventually bring brand awareness or stabilize to be profitable.
Playhem is also barely on anybodies radar, the viewer numbers for playhem are in the low hundreds each day. I'm not entirely sure if Playhem is even profitable, or sustainable as I haven't read anything on them. Also with playhem already out there and I think the other is g4goal or whatever, theres not much room to grow there.
If you want real RoI trackable RoI check out EG. EG has stats on their players that includes everything from stream viewers, to viewership at events, live and online and a whole host of other measurables. EG is loaded with sponsors because they provide excellent information for people looking at investing in that team. This makes it very easy for them to gauge player value on their team. Monster knows exactly how many people from each region are getting exposed to their brand because of EG, so EG is probably a very comfortable investment for them.
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On October 25 2012 17:07 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:
But didn't think I should hang out the persons (progamers) who sounded childish even tho their working in one of the biggest teams in Esports. And that's partly (big deal) of why we went the way we did. When the community managers of said teams act like kids in a big mainstream community like ours. Via Twitter, Reddit, Teamliquid and their own page. Feeding the drama is looked down from any investor/sponsors POV.
To be clear, nobody expects anything but childish behavior from video game fans, and immaturity doesn't detract from a market opportunity; money is money, and video game team sponsors want gamers' money. Razer doesn't care if I sling Destiny-style BM on one of their keyboards as long as I'm shelling out the cash.
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On October 26 2012 00:10 pigmanbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 17:07 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:
But didn't think I should hang out the persons (progamers) who sounded childish even tho their working in one of the biggest teams in Esports. And that's partly (big deal) of why we went the way we did. When the community managers of said teams act like kids in a big mainstream community like ours. Via Twitter, Reddit, Teamliquid and their own page. Feeding the drama is looked down from any investor/sponsors POV. To be clear, nobody expects anything but childish behavior from video game fans, and immaturity doesn't detract from a market opportunity; money is money, and video game team sponsors want gamers' money. Razer doesn't care if I sling Destiny-style BM on one of their keyboards as long as I'm shelling out the cash.
Don't know if you was supposed to quote something else. But i'm not talking about fans
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On October 24 2012 22:56 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: we agreed that the ROI was worth it dependent on how successful the idea would be..
Your return on investment would be successful depending on how successful your return would be?
This just hurts my brain. You are basically saying you would be successful if you are successful.
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On October 25 2012 17:07 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 04:53 pigmanbear wrote:
This is not what a potential investor sees in Starcraft, because no serious investor is getting their first introduction via a Reddit page. They see the tournaments and the enthusiasm there, or they see live streams, because that's where the fans and players interact most.
You should've made the title of this post: How to be terrible at courting investors. No sane person would bring somebody to Reddit or even the TL forums first because while these things are valuable to the community, they offer absolutely no value in the way of exposure for an investor or any other sort of business opportunity. You show the largest upcoming tournament and some well-designed team websites, and you go from there.
Unless you have experience running a business (some of us here do), you're talking out of your ass, sorry. And no amount of business-speak on top of it changes that.
Besides the point, why would an invoicing/IT company invest in Starcraft unless it were big and really relevant to Average Joe business owners (like BW was in Korea)? I've considered investing in some small SC2 teams because I sell some small consumer software products (B2C, your father is in B2B almost certainly) and I could arguably drive sales with adverts on SC2 streams and such, but there's just no intersection with your father's business. He was just humoring you because you spend a lot of time on the game. No it's not just B2B(but mainly yes, small business from here to switserland with almost 3 million paid users. It's a invoice program developed for everyone who for example have a website they need their invoice taken care of aswell as a "budget" application nice to anyone who's looking to get more control of their economy. And the fact that I showed him reddit was a mistake without a doubt. Also said so in the OP. But that wasn't the final blow for him. But didn't think I should hang out the persons (progamers) who sounded childish even tho their working in one of the biggest teams in Esports. And that's partly (big deal) of why we went the way we did. When the community managers of said teams act like kids in a big mainstream community like ours. Via Twitter, Reddit, Teamliquid and their own page. Feeding the drama is looked down from any investor/sponsors POV.
no it's not and nothing you've said has proven that. i don't understand why you're harping on this when several other people have given cleary examples of how this is wrong
look at the nfl, ncaa football, nba, etc. it's a bunch of giant man babies who do all sorts of retarded stuff on a frequent basis that causes all sorts of drama in the press (which is a tad bit more important than some dumb forums) and those companies are extremely profitable.
op, how old are you and what experience do you have other than what your dad tells you
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I really want to have a drama filter on TL, I'm just sick of all of it.
Progamers need to stop doing dumb shit and we need to stop overreacting to it.
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One lesson for your life: Never get into touch with investors that don't know that business you wanna invest into...not even if it is your dad.
I personally would never ever invest into eSports. I think it's just a huge BS. Nobody needs eSports to earn money. Blizzard earned its money with WoW, not with BW, not with the eSport part of SC2. What gives a publisher money are great selling video games, not a bunch of teenagers, referring to themselves as pros. What gives money to hardware makers? People actively playing games, not people watching a bunch of so called pros streaming. eSports is a dream for some teenagers that are unable to face reality: u can't seriously thinking that u gonna make a living out of playing video games, because nobody will ever seriously consider to pay you for doing that. Same is true for curling by the way.
I think already the name of eSports is so fundamentally wrong, wrong, wrong. It suggest that we you can copy what works in football. However, there is a ONE DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE: the fun of video games comes from playing them. Nobody that is not playing at last on a regular bases, will EVER watch a stream of Dreamhack. While my fat cousin, who can't even run, will watch every single game of AC Milan. So, the fun of pro football comes from supporting the teams rather than playing it.
Though I think video games are huge, and will stay huge in the years to come. I am even convinced that in a nearby future games will kill cinema movies. We gonna have our own interactive movies. So if you want to invest moeny, invest in games, make games for iPhone or whatever, but put aside eSports. Video games are fun to play, but are utterly broing to watch for must of us...
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On October 26 2012 16:38 lukasdesign wrote:
One lesson for your life: Never get into touch with investors that don't know that business you wanna invest into...not even if it is your dad.
I personally would never ever invest into eSports. I think it's just a huge BS. Nobody needs eSports to earn money. Blizzard earned its money with WoW, not with BW, not with the eSport part of SC2. What gives a publisher money are great selling video games, not a bunch of teenagers, referring to themselves as pros. What gives money to hardware makers? People actively playing games, not people watching a bunch of so called pros streaming. eSports is a dream for some teenagers that are unable to face reality: u can't seriously thinking that u gonna make a living out of playing video games, because nobody will ever seriously consider to pay you for doing that. Same is true for curling by the way.
I think already the name of eSports is so fundamentally wrong, wrong, wrong. It suggest that we you can copy what works in football. However, there is a ONE DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE: the fun of video games comes from playing them. Nobody that is not playing at last on a regular bases, will EVER watch a stream of Dreamhack. While my fat cousin, who can't even run, will watch every single game of AC Milan. So, the fun of pro football comes from supporting the teams rather than playing it.
Though I think video games are huge, and will stay huge in the years to come. I am even convinced that in a nearby future games will kill cinema movies. We gonna have our own interactive movies. So if you want to invest moeny, invest in games, make games for iPhone or whatever, but put aside eSports. Video games are fun to play, but are utterly broing to watch for must of us...
For someone who hates esports and what not why the fuck are you on these forums? This is literally an esports forum for starcraft and now Dota/LoL. If you find it boring to watch and have no desire for it to become bigger then why are you here?
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On October 26 2012 16:51 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 16:38 lukasdesign wrote:
One lesson for your life: Never get into touch with investors that don't know that business you wanna invest into...not even if it is your dad.
I personally would never ever invest into eSports. I think it's just a huge BS. Nobody needs eSports to earn money. Blizzard earned its money with WoW, not with BW, not with the eSport part of SC2. What gives a publisher money are great selling video games, not a bunch of teenagers, referring to themselves as pros. What gives money to hardware makers? People actively playing games, not people watching a bunch of so called pros streaming. eSports is a dream for some teenagers that are unable to face reality: u can't seriously thinking that u gonna make a living out of playing video games, because nobody will ever seriously consider to pay you for doing that. Same is true for curling by the way.
I think already the name of eSports is so fundamentally wrong, wrong, wrong. It suggest that we you can copy what works in football. However, there is a ONE DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE: the fun of video games comes from playing them. Nobody that is not playing at last on a regular bases, will EVER watch a stream of Dreamhack. While my fat cousin, who can't even run, will watch every single game of AC Milan. So, the fun of pro football comes from supporting the teams rather than playing it.
Though I think video games are huge, and will stay huge in the years to come. I am even convinced that in a nearby future games will kill cinema movies. We gonna have our own interactive movies. So if you want to invest moeny, invest in games, make games for iPhone or whatever, but put aside eSports. Video games are fun to play, but are utterly broing to watch for must of us... For someone who hates esports and what not why the fuck are you on these forums? This is literally an esports forum for starcraft and now Dota/LoL. If you find it boring to watch and have no desire for it to become bigger then why are you here?
Simply because I love to play SC2 (and a some more games btw), and I love to learn about strategies and meet other people that like to play the game. All this is a HUGE part of the TL forum, the whole eSports section I can easily skip...so why I shouldn't be here? Only because you tell me not be?
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On October 26 2012 16:38 lukasdesign wrote:
One lesson for your life: Never get into touch with investors that don't know that business you wanna invest into...not even if it is your dad.
I personally would never ever invest into eSports. I think it's just a huge BS. Nobody needs eSports to earn money. Blizzard earned its money with WoW, not with BW, not with the eSport part of SC2. What gives a publisher money are great selling video games, not a bunch of teenagers, referring to themselves as pros. What gives money to hardware makers? People actively playing games, not people watching a bunch of so called pros streaming. eSports is a dream for some teenagers that are unable to face reality: u can't seriously thinking that u gonna make a living out of playing video games, because nobody will ever seriously consider to pay you for doing that. Same is true for curling by the way.
I think already the name of eSports is so fundamentally wrong, wrong, wrong. It suggest that we you can copy what works in football. However, there is a ONE DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE: the fun of video games comes from playing them. Nobody that is not playing at last on a regular bases, will EVER watch a stream of Dreamhack. While my fat cousin, who can't even run, will watch every single game of AC Milan. So, the fun of pro football comes from supporting the teams rather than playing it.
Though I think video games are huge, and will stay huge in the years to come. I am even convinced that in a nearby future games will kill cinema movies. We gonna have our own interactive movies. So if you want to invest moeny, invest in games, make games for iPhone or whatever, but put aside eSports. Video games are fun to play, but are utterly broing to watch for must of us...
Well there was a thread on TL where people posted their resolutions for the upcoming season and the thing that struck me most was the huge amount of people who wished they would actually play SC more than watch it. You are seriously underestimating the amount of viewer potential the esports has. One more thing: real sports generated their fanbase for decades. Most of those people played the games when they were young. And current esports are here for how long? 0-3 years?
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On October 24 2012 20:38 robhoward wrote:
/r/starcraft is killing ESPORTS.
haha, NAILED it
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Why would you show him Reddit. Better question, why would you go to Reddit? Why would you think showing your dad Reddit of all places would be a good idea?
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I like the effort! But I feel this is a matter of missing the target. Getting investers to support your cause (in any situation or setting) is all about identifying the gold at the right time for the right investor. It seems to me that you have found "drama" as a source of undoing, but instead try to see who benefits from the drama, and search for investors who may find value in that. If this does not suit your marketing style or morale, well then you should do everything in your power to hide the drama from your investor. If your intentions are to overshadow the drama bit in the scene, which I understand is part of your reasoning, that's the way to go.
I agree with CecilSunkure (post above), why would you show reddit to an investor? It's like saying your company is not interested in profit when looking for financial support from a bank. It scares them away. Reddit is 95% crap (don't get me wrong, there's alot of good posts there, but considering the amount of posts there's bound to be loads of crap). Finding better ways for marketing your cause is one step in the right direction.
You might think it's counterproductive to bring investors to the scene that benefit from drama, but if you look at any sport there's always a piece of newpaper or sports journalist that loves that bit. Maybe it's time for eSports? Yeah yeah, I am a badguy for thinking all this. Bringing stupid people to our utopian esport world. Well, it's a capitalistic scene. Driven by cash, it's bound to happen. Why not be the pioneer in this matter.  Or simply find a better suited investor that can benefit from the huge amount of viewers somehow. Gamers eat and drink, buy gear, clothing and accessories. these are areas already covered, have they missed something?
best,
Kim
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EPT
