|
On October 23 2012 09:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Everything about your post hinges on your own opinions. You thought D2 was great because of how long it took, yet MAAAAAAANY other people completely got around that with map hacks and teleporting (either a sorc before enigma, or enigma when it came out). You think that SC2 is all about the deathball, ignoring the entire period of time before that (more and more games are not really maxed out armies). You think WoW is all about the very endgame, ignoring that tons of people make alts, travel, do tradeskills or now do pet battles. You are basically ignoring huuuuuuuge aspects of the games to try and make a point.
Then there is the issue of you praising TL2 for all of these things but fail to mention how they differ from other games. Why does gaining a level feel special in TL2 and not in D3? Why does a unique feel unique in TL2, but a legendary not legendary in D3?
First of all, it's a blog. Chill.
Second of all, I have watched a lot of Starcraft 2, and what you described is not even true unless it ends in the first 15 minutes. Most games end up still being a deathball for any race. It still exists, people are just starting to ignore it because BW is dying. I agree with people - After watching BW games, and watching a shit ton more SC2, I can see that the fights do feel different. Not saying that SC2 is terrible, or that the balance or multiplayer are - just saying they're not what their predecessors were. People say "Well, SC2 ISN'T BW" You don't think I don't know that? I don't want it to be BW - I want it to be better,
The only reason I say Blizzard is at fault here is because I look at a game like Torchlight 2, and I play it, and I can tell you why it feels better than Diablo 3:
- The lack of scripted bosses makes it so all of my moves still matter no matter which boss I'm fighting.
- The bosses without scripting still feel unique.
- The item system while randomized, isn't completely randomized and still allows for Unique items to be better than Rares. - There's no such thing as a "set" type of item, and instead are under rares or uniques - allowing lower level sets to be obtained and used.
- FIshing is a mini game you play to get better fish to give your pet to make it stronger. Sometimes you get weird little items too that help you with other things.
- The enchanting system is random, but allows you to remove and add enchantments for a price.
- The gem system doesn't have you combine gems to create better quality of that gem, but instead you can combine them and create a rare socketable, which allows for more advanced statistiics aside from element damage and armor such as +mana regen, or +health regen, +%element damage.
Also, it has fucking LAN, man. FUCKING LAN.
Ok, I'm going to talk about SC2 vs BW now. But before I do -
I started watching BW in 2009, in preparation for SC2. I wanted to be a pro gamer, so I found the first pro-gamer that I thought was good at the race I played, and stuck with it. Fucking sAvior......
Anyway, I was pumped for SC2. You can ask any of my friends. I was the one who knew about GSL first, I knew about NASL, I knew about MLG getting SC2, I knew about Liquid + OGS, I knew about Slayers, Boxer, MMA, Crank, Leenock, Artoists + Tasteless, Day9 before any of these guys did. I showed them all of it. I stayed up every fucking night to watch GSL because I had no job, and I was obssessed. I watched Leenock pwn Clide's Tech Lab to cancel his stim upgrade in Open Season 2 (THEN GOT DC/D FUCKING BULLSHIT). I watched Fruitdealer win the first GSL. I have watched a lot of SC2, not as much as some, but I proud myself on being able to tell people alot of it's history from memory.
I fucking loved this game. But honestly, I can still go back to BW, and see how much more dynamic the fights were/are. The skill ceiling provided by the poor AI did make BW what it was - But that was the best part. The game was working against you - never for you. Everything in SC2 feels like the game needs to help you to make it work. Chronoboost, more larva so you need less hatcheries, spreading creep and it makes you faster, now the CC can call down an scv that gathers mineral faster, or give you supply if you cap yourself. People say that to every one of these actions is a cost, but what cost is there in getting more larva? in speeding up your production in any way? in gaining more mineral? It's not like if you don't do these things, you get mineral taken away, or larva, or even slower upgrades.
Every game that's competitive has something working against you constantly, aside from the enemy. In LoL/DotA, you have creep waves (among other things, but creeps are the main imo) In Halo, basketball, football and Socccer you have the clock counting down. In BW, the AI even on your team was your freaking enemy.
In SC2, the only thing working against you is your enemy. This sounds like a good way to balance a game, but without something else there to focus your time, it becomes easier to be better at SC2 because you have these saving graces instead of something that inflicts a penalty.
|
I really agree with you and your points.
I used to think to myself that if there is one rule in this world it's that Blizzard and Valve won't let you down when they release a game. Since Diablo 3 that's been completely changed for me.
Can I confirm; were some of the original Blizzard developers involved in creating Torchlight 2? I'll have to check it out, I've been putting all my eggs in the Path of Exile bucket but it's taking ages for it to go to open beta... (I've paid to get into closed beta but I want to wait for my friends to join / characters not to get wiped).
|
On October 23 2012 10:57 DRTnOOber wrote:
I really agree with you and your points.
I used to think to myself that if there is one rule in this world it's that Blizzard and Valve won't let you down when they release a game. Since Diablo 3 that's been completely changed for me.
Can I confirm; were some of the original Blizzard developers involved in creating Torchlight 2? I'll have to check it out, I've been putting all my eggs in the Path of Exile bucket but it's taking ages for it to go to open beta... (I've paid to get into closed beta but I want to wait for my friends to join / characters not to get wiped).
Some of the guys who worked at Blizzard North work at Runic games. They use to work at Flagship studios which created Hellgate London and Mythos.
But Path of Exile is in the same boat as TL2 - I wish it was more finished though because I want to play it all the way through. But yeah, Path of Exile basically saw the FF7 materia system, and made that into a Diablo game. I love it. The skill trees in PoE are amazing too. The game's animations aren't AMAZING, but they're good enough that I wouldn't mind playing that game all the way through. The little that I did play through I was impressed. They've done an amazing job on it.
|
On October 23 2012 00:26 hoby2000 wrote:
It sucks to admit this, especially since I've been a big fan of Blizzard for a long time. I thought they could do no wrong. But once I take off these rose-shaded glasses, I realize that SC2, D3, and MoP suck. Sure they look good and they have the Blizzard label, but they're not fun games to me anymore.
Exactly my thoughts. Their magic is gone, and I'm at peace with it. As the saying goes, remaining at the top is harder than getting to the top.
This post + Show Spoiler + was posted more than 2 years ago, during another time period when plethora of threads concerning where Blizzard is heading were popping up in TL. 2 and a half years later, nothing has changed. If anything, it validated the harsh fact that you don't want to put your hopes in Blizzard to make wonderful games.
|
I understand its a blog, but why does that matter? Also, everything still hinges on opinion which makes the theory invalid.
|
On October 23 2012 13:03 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I understand its a blog, but why does that matter? Also, everything still hinges on opinion which makes the theory invalid.
Why does it matter? Why doesn't it matter? It's the reason people are complaining about the game. I'm simply issuing an idea that seems to be playing itself out. And an opinion does no make a theory instantly invalid. It just doesn't give it much weight - but I think a lot of people are seeing past my opinion and the general idea. I honestly don't think people are complaining about these games simply to complain anymore - I think the games themselves aren't as great as people think they are.
It's like the whole US presidential debate - People complain about politics and don't vote not because they're apathetic - but because they realize the whole thing is dumb. The problem is that they don't understand why it's dumb so everyone just thinks they're being opinionated douche bags.
The way you negatively responded to my blog though shows that you don't agree. You'll say something like it's because it's opinion, but you know that doesn't matter deep down. What matters is the idea i'm expressing - not whether or not it's based on opinions or facts or something I heard from someone else.
So please, if you're going to respond, please respond as to why this idea doesn't actually make sense or fit in
|
"....but it's a blog. Therefore, I don't give a shit."
"First of all, it's a blog. Chill."
You're writing something honestly hoping to get honest feedback from your respected peers. But when someone responds honestly, albeit harshly, you chastise them because it's "just a blog". Should I take your blogs seriously and try to respond honestly, or should I assume that all posts from you in the blog section are whimsical notions and not the basis for legitimate discussion?
|
I don’t understand where people come with the whole “Blizzard is failing” idea that has dominated the community. The more I read of them, the more I feel people are upset that Blizzards current do not invoke the same wonder and nostalgia BW and D2 did. I don’t think the posters are aware that the parts of the games they are missing may not be something Blizzard could replicate. That combined with the fact that our memories of BW and D2 a super refined versions of the game, after years of patching. And that patching was based on millions of people playing that game and provided feed back.
SC2 and D3 were never going to make us young again, give us endless free time youth provided or the large pool of friends all playing the game. Just like no game will ever be as amazing as Sam and Max Hit the Road, the first game I ever played that was fully voiced.
Blizzard will have failed if HotS is a pile of trash. I doubt that is going to happen, because everyone who is dealing with Blizzard directly says they are totally committed to making the game amazing. Until then, people have to accept that you can only fall in love for the first time once.
|
On October 24 2012 01:19 Plansix wrote:
I don’t understand where people come with the whole “Blizzard is failing” idea that has dominated the community. The more I read of them, the more I feel people are upset that Blizzards current do not invoke the same wonder and nostalgia BW and D2 did. I don’t think the posters are aware that the parts of the games they are missing may not be something Blizzard could replicate. That combined with the fact that our memories of BW and D2 a super refined versions of the game, after years of patching. And that patching was based on millions of people playing that game and provided feed back.
SC2 and D3 were never going to make us young again, give us endless free time youth provided or the large pool of friends all playing the game. Just like no game will ever be as amazing as Sam and Max Hit the Road, the first game I ever played that was fully voiced.
Blizzard will have failed if HotS is a pile of trash. I doubt that is going to happen, because everyone who is dealing with Blizzard directly says they are totally committed to making the game amazing. Until then, people have to accept that you can only fall in love for the first time once.
Yeah, I actually gave a lot of thought about nostalgia, but I really don't think that's it. When I said I love SC2 when it came out, I really did. I am not shitting you. There's a post before this one where I replied to a dude about how I've pretty much been there for every event. SC2 was basically my life - It was the sport I was waiting for. I never got heavily into BW, so SC2 was going to be the thing for me. But after years, I've come to realize that it's not the Blizzard that made those other games because it is missing parts their other games had.
Maybe saying that Blizzard failed was a bit of an exaggeration. But I feel like I see why SC2 isn't as good as BW, and I know I'm not some BW fan who is trying to convicne SC2 fans they suck. I am a SC2 fan through and through, but because of that, I can more easily admit the game is far from perfect and a lot of that has to do with the design philosophy of SC2, D3, and WoW.
|
On October 24 2012 00:48 Fumanchu wrote:
"....but it's a blog. Therefore, I don't give a shit."
"First of all, it's a blog. Chill."
You're writing something honestly hoping to get honest feedback from your respected peers. But when someone responds honestly, albeit harshly, you chastise them because it's "just a blog". Should I take your blogs seriously and try to respond honestly, or should I assume that all posts from you in the blog section are whimsical notions and not the basis for legitimate discussion?
I'm writing something to get feedback but no from people who simply dismiss a whole argument. It is a blog at it's foundation, and I will acknowledge legitimate arguments, but not the ones who say "OH SHUT UP. SC2 IS NOT DYING. BLIZZARD IS AMAZING, UR JUST A NUB."
if you have a legit response as to why this might not be true aside from the fact it's opinion or it's a blog, then respond, But if you don't, then reply if you want, but I'm not gong to reply if it's not really debating the point.
|
I strongly believe this "nostalgia" excuse many people seem to be pushing around is flawed.
I started playing BW only in 2009, loved it from the beginning, the Bisu (kinda)/Jaedong/Flash era. Then I was super hyped for SC2 that I bought the game July 27, 2010.
The first couple of months of SC2 were fun but as time passed I got more and more bored of the game to the point I stopped playing it around 2011 and started playing BW back again. I kept following SC2 tournaments and news during 2011 and early 2012 just to check how the game was but it was still not appealing to me.
Today still, once in a while I hop in a SC2 stream (the free tournaments one - IGN, IEM, etc) just to see how the game is played nowadays and I still see no appealing there. I still can't see why should I play SC2 when I have a much more fun and competitive game, in my opinion.
According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nostalgia, the definition of nostalgia is
a wistful desire to return in thought or in fact to a former time in one's life, to one's home or homeland, or to one's family and friends; a sentimental yearning for the happiness of a former place or time: a nostalgia for his college days.
How can I be nostalgic if I'm still playing the game be cause I like it even today, and not just because of fond memories?
This is my opinion, I am not saying everyone should share the same feelings as me, but don't you say that I'd prefer to play BW just because of nostalgia. I believe many (if not all) people who play BW today shares the same idea though.
|
On October 23 2012 10:42 hoby2000 wrote:
I fucking loved this game. But honestly, I can still go back to BW, and see how much more dynamic the fights were/are. The skill ceiling provided by the poor AI did make BW what it was - But that was the best part. The game was working against you - never for you. Everything in SC2 feels like the game needs to help you to make it work. Chronoboost, more larva so you need less hatcheries, spreading creep and it makes you faster, now the CC can call down an scv that gathers mineral faster, or give you supply if you cap yourself. People say that to every one of these actions is a cost, but what cost is there in getting more larva? in speeding up your production in any way? in gaining more mineral? It's not like if you don't do these things, you get mineral taken away, or larva, or even slower upgrades.
Every game that's competitive has something working against you constantly, aside from the enemy. In LoL/DotA, you have creep waves (among other things, but creeps are the main imo) In Halo, basketball, football and Socccer you have the clock counting down. In BW, the AI even on your team was your freaking enemy.
In SC2, the only thing working against you is your enemy. This sounds like a good way to balance a game, but without something else there to focus your time, it becomes easier to be better at SC2 because you have these saving graces instead of something that inflicts a penalty.
Fucking golden. You just hit an extremely major point that I think Blizzard should realize sooner than later.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hWPuC.png)
