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(Before I continue, I want to make it very clear that I have been a Blizzard fan boy since I started playing Warcraft 2: Tides of Darkness. Super fan boy, you might even say. I loved the shit out BW, D2, WC3, SC2, and even D3. I even spent 2 years of my life playing WoW. I have loved Blizzard for all they have given me, so don't think I'm saying this because I'm against them)
Torchlight 2 (Runic Games - Some devs from D2/Mythos/Hellgate + fate developers) came out at the end of September. It's a stunning sequel to a game everyone thought could only be bettered by multiplayer (which TL2 included!). The thing about this game is that it's not that it does anything knew - things like fishing, gems, crafting - have all been in Diablo-esque games before. but what makes this game great is how solid it feels.
Solid? What does that even mean? It means that when I play the game, everything I do feels like it means something. Every monster I kill is another monster I have saved from the people of Estheria or Torchlight or wherever the hell I am. Every level I gain is an investment into my character. It means that every unique item I pick up, feels and looks unique. It means that for the most part, this game doesn't really have things in it that make it feel less than I think it should be.
So what does this have to do with Blizzard then?
Diablo 3 was released months before Torchlight 2. It had way more time, money and developers to be the superior game. Yet, when I play Diablo 3 now, sure it looks great. Sure, the boss fights are really cool because of how scripted they are - Sure, the item randomly generated item system is cool, but something is missing. There's something about D3 for the longest time I couldn't put my finger on that made it feel like I was playing a sequel to a game that had been such a huge part of my life, but I didn't know what it was.... until I played TL2.
While I was driving to get food yesterday (i'm a lazy bastard and went to McDonalds), I was doing some thinking. NPR was playing in the background, and they must have mentioned something that sparked this though because what I realized was that Blizzard has been doing is what I've called "The Max Level Game Making theory."
Basically what Blizzard has done in their past couple releases is that they've worked on the game from the perspective of whatever their Max Level for that game is. In Sc2, it's "the deathball." In Diablo 3" it's "Inferno mode." In WoW, it's practically the core part of the game. Most people I have played WoW with (myself included) say the game doesn't start until you hit max level.
What is this doing to their games though? One of the best parts I loved about WoW before Lich King (which in my opinion, was the initial downfall of WoW) was how long it took to get to max level. It felt it took forever because the quests were elaborate, you didn't have a mount till 40, and even then it was still slower than most mounts.
One of the best parts about Diablo 2 was how long it took to get anywhere. The 20 minutes you spent roaming Durances of Hate so you could get your mephisto run over with and started over. Even before you started runs, playing the game felt like an epic fucking adventure. Everything was randomized, and every time you played - while it was still themed the same, it still felt different.
In BW, I remember watching pro players in 2009 (when I started watching), and being amazed at how much they would be doing at once just with their armies. They were split all over the map harassing expansions, trying to expand, hiding tech, cutting off escape routes, etc.
So why and how did this happen?
Let's go back to 2006 - I'm not sure where the news stories are for this but at some point, a bunch of Blizzard devs left the company, and they were replaced by others (Dustin Browder, David Kim, Jay Wilson). A couple years later, Blizzard gets bought by Activision, then all of these games start coming out from Blizzard that are met with disappointment (though the brand sells itself). Was it Bobby Kotick? I think he has a little part in this. But I think a lot of it is that the core people who made Blizzard games what they were have left, and now we're in a generation of Blizzard.
The conclusion to this epic blog that was all over the place? I'm sorry Blizzard, but you're not the gaming company you use to be. When I boot up a game with devs who use to work for you, and it's better than a game that you had 10 years to make a sequel to with 10x their budget and development power - I know that something is wrong. When you accidentally created one of the biggest e-sports to date, then tried to create it's sequel with e-sports in mind and ended up creating something worse, - I know that something is wrong.
It sucks to admit this, especially since I've been a big fan of Blizzard for a long time. I thought they could do no wrong. But once I take off these rose-shaded glasses, I realize that SC2, D3, and MoP suck. Sure they look good and they have the Blizzard label, but they're not fun games to me anymore.
 
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You really shouldn't construct arguments where the premise is actually a conclusion.
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God, shut up and don't play the games then.
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On October 23 2012 00:40 TheKwas wrote:
God, shut up and don't play the games then.
What a ridiculous response. Why bother posing on the blog just to say this?
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On October 23 2012 00:48 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:40 TheKwas wrote:
God, shut up and don't play the games then. What a ridiculous response. Why bother posing on the blog just to say this?
Because these blogs are EVERYWHERE now. The entire blog section has basically been hijacked by people posting blizzard whine blogs and people posting whine blogs about the whine blogs. You could post this in a billion other threads (almost all of them with better OPs than this one) on this website. The game is 2 years old now, there's no reason for every tired gamer to write a good-bye letter to blizzard when their game only entertained them for 2 years: just put the game down and do something else.
If you have something actually constructive to say that may improve the game, then post away. Otherwise you're just adding to the trash and your blog deserved to be 1-starred to the bottom of the blog ladder.
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On October 23 2012 00:38 Jerubaal wrote:
You really shouldn't construct arguments where the premise is actually a conclusion.
his argument is fine, just because it isn't laid out step by step, does not mean it is not valid
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On October 23 2012 01:02 onewingedmoogle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:38 Jerubaal wrote:
You really shouldn't construct arguments where the premise is actually a conclusion. his argument is fine, just because it isn't laid out step by step, does not mean it is not valid
Hey man I would like to kindly remind you that on internet forums any argument you have qualms with is instantly invalidated.
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On October 23 2012 00:59 TheKwas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:48 Zealos wrote:On October 23 2012 00:40 TheKwas wrote:
God, shut up and don't play the games then. What a ridiculous response. Why bother posing on the blog just to say this? Because these blogs are EVERYWHERE now. The entire blog section has basically been hijacked by people posting blizzard whine blogs and people posting whine blogs about the whine blogs. You could post this in a billion other threads (almost all of them with better OPs than this one) on this website. The game is 2 years old now, there's no reason for every tired gamer to write a good-bye letter to blizzard when their game only entertained them for 2 years: just put the game down and do something else. If you have something actually constructive to say that may improve the game, then post away. Otherwise you're just adding to the trash and your blog deserved to be 1-starred to the bottom of the blog ladder.
I'm not saying the game sucks because it can't be improved or doesn't have time to be improved. I'm saying the game sucks because the people behind it aren't the same people who designed BW, or D2, or WoW/BC. Blizzard is not the same company, and people who think that they're going to magically change back to who they were are not being realistic in the slightest. The core fundamental of all of their latest release are based on the idea that if everyone is equal in supply/level/units, it will be fun. This is not the case.
I don't know what I could say to Blizzard that could change this. Their design philosophy is different and trying to change that is going to require a little more than "constructive criticism."
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On October 23 2012 01:02 onewingedmoogle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:38 Jerubaal wrote:
You really shouldn't construct arguments where the premise is actually a conclusion. his argument is fine, just because it isn't laid out step by step, does not mean it is not valid
No.
The entire post depends on a supposition that he does not even attempt to prove. It's like if I went up to someone and said "so how long have you been a racist?" It's intellectually lazy and rhetorically dishonest.
I'm not nitpicking in the slightest. This is a terrible way to present an argument.
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This is the blog section, where people express personal beliefs and opinions - and others do the same. I don't think you need to post rigorously constructed plans for improvement of the game just to warrant the validity of a blog. That being said, there are already many of those how-to-save-HOTS threads in the SC2 General sections (re: Gretorp, Grubby, Sase, etc.).
I agree with the OP that SC2 and D3 don't have the same charm as SCBW or D2. I've also been thinking of playing something new, maybe I'll try out Torchlight 2 now...
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On October 23 2012 01:33 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:02 onewingedmoogle wrote:On October 23 2012 00:38 Jerubaal wrote:
You really shouldn't construct arguments where the premise is actually a conclusion. his argument is fine, just because it isn't laid out step by step, does not mean it is not valid No. The entire post depends on a supposition that he does not even attempt to prove. It's like if I went up to someone and said "so how long have you been a racist?" It's intellectually lazy and rhetorically dishonest. I'm not nitpicking in the slightest. This is a terrible way to present an argument.
If this was a thread, I would say you have a valid point, but it's a blog. Therefore, I don't give a shit.
But seriously, I could have presented it as an argument. But I just wanted to write my thoughts down for later viewing when I'm thinking about this subject, and I want to make it more concrete. Expect a thread from me in the next week about this with better ogranization and an actual argument, not emotions.
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On October 23 2012 00:59 TheKwas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:48 Zealos wrote:On October 23 2012 00:40 TheKwas wrote:
God, shut up and don't play the games then. What a ridiculous response. Why bother posing on the blog just to say this? Because these blogs are EVERYWHERE now. The entire blog section has basically been hijacked by people posting blizzard whine blogs and people posting whine blogs about the whine blogs. You could post this in a billion other threads (almost all of them with better OPs than this one) on this website. The game is 2 years old now, there's no reason for every tired gamer to write a good-bye letter to blizzard when their game only entertained them for 2 years: just put the game down and do something else. If you have something actually constructive to say that may improve the game, then post away. Otherwise you're just adding to the trash and your blog deserved to be 1-starred to the bottom of the blog ladder.
It certainly looks more like you just disagree with the OP and somehow felt offended because his opinion is not the same as yours.
Maybe you should follow your own advice and ignore the blog instead of coming here and freely offending someone?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Blizzard's worth in my eyes has been dropping steadily. Seems like most of the magic has been sucked out of their key franchises. Diablo 3 was especially a huge disappointment, it's startling how superior Torchilight 2 is in almost every facet despite having a much smaller production team and budget. There were simply some high-level decisions that were made very poorly on Blizzard's recent projects. I'll save my spiel about SC2 (anyone who knows me understands why I play fighting games now -_- thx Blizzard), because Diablo 3 is a good enough example that everyone can see.
Blizzard is quickly coming to the end of their dominance in this industry. WoW is basically a giant facebook game now, too.
Really sad to see such a magnificent studio fall so far. They haven't really fallen yet, per se, but it's coming. I'll think long and hard before I drop any cash on a Blizzard title again, after how disappointing their last few releases have been. Too commercialized, too scrubbified. They make games for idiots now.
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On October 23 2012 01:22 hoby2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:59 TheKwas wrote:On October 23 2012 00:48 Zealos wrote:On October 23 2012 00:40 TheKwas wrote:
God, shut up and don't play the games then. What a ridiculous response. Why bother posing on the blog just to say this? Because these blogs are EVERYWHERE now. The entire blog section has basically been hijacked by people posting blizzard whine blogs and people posting whine blogs about the whine blogs. You could post this in a billion other threads (almost all of them with better OPs than this one) on this website. The game is 2 years old now, there's no reason for every tired gamer to write a good-bye letter to blizzard when their game only entertained them for 2 years: just put the game down and do something else. If you have something actually constructive to say that may improve the game, then post away. Otherwise you're just adding to the trash and your blog deserved to be 1-starred to the bottom of the blog ladder. I'm not saying the game sucks because it can't be improved or doesn't have time to be improved. I'm saying the game sucks because the people behind it aren't the same people who designed BW, or D2, or WoW/BC. Blizzard is not the same company, and people who think that they're going to magically change back to who they were are not being realistic in the slightest. The core fundamental of all of their latest release are based on the idea that if everyone is equal in supply/level/units, it will be fun. This is not the case. I don't know what I could say to Blizzard that could change this. Their design philosophy is different and trying to change that is going to require a little more than "constructive criticism."
I completely agree with this. The company where the magic was is gone, what's left was "Terrible terrible damage" and this desire to create the game solely for the competitive players. And really the kicker for me is that I think it's not because they aren't trying, but are trying TOO hard.
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There is another possibility that I think a lot of people have forgotten about.
Blizzard has been all about WoW since WoW came out (because it was essentially the most profitable game ever). Even now, I'm confident that the cheap wow expansions they're putting out make them more money than their other franchises. The threat to Blizzard's long term profitability just isn't in SC2 or D3 (that's why they feel off). So maybe they're messing up on D3/SC2/MoP not because their most developed talent is gone, but because it's working on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(Blizzard_Entertainment_project)
If you were an executive, would you want to put a lot of effort into making another BW if you could? Or would you rather focus on making another cash cow like wow? Choice is pretty clear IMO.
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On October 23 2012 03:04 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Blizzard's worth in my eyes has been dropping steadily. Seems like most of the magic has been sucked out of their key franchises. Diablo 3 was especially a huge disappointment, it's startling how superior Torchilight 2 is in almost every facet despite having a much smaller production team and budget. There were simply some high-level decisions that were made very poorly on Blizzard's recent projects. I'll save my spiel about SC2 (anyone who knows me understands why I play fighting games now -_- thx Blizzard), because Diablo 3 is a good enough example that everyone can see.
Blizzard is quickly coming to the end of their dominance in this industry. WoW is basically a giant facebook game now, too.
Really sad to see such a magnificent studio fall so far. They haven't really fallen yet, per se, but it's coming. I'll think long and hard before I drop any cash on a Blizzard title again, after how disappointing their last few releases have been. Too commercialized, too scrubbified. They make games for idiots now.
They really do make games for idiots now. I was playing WoW with my friend over the weekend, and I honestly did not enjoy myself at all. Every time I play that game now, it feels really tacky. Like there's no real free will and that my choices eventually mean nothing in the end because I end up reaching the same plateau everyone else has reached.
I had started feeling this way about Diablo 3 before it was released, by friends told me I was just being dumb. But now that I feel it again, I don't think I was being dumb to start with. I think we are seeing the slow yet steady fall of Blizzard. I can't say I'm disappointed to be honest because they did something really great for PC gaming. They showed us what a quality game can be, and now they've set standards for other aspiring developers.
I'm going to write a music blog about this soon, comparing music artists to game development, and show people that this progression is natural. Anything that's good ends, and anything that lasts forever is usually bad.
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If you want an MMO with great leveling experiences, try SWTOR (especially w/ a friend if possible)...endgame might not be spectacular but I had more fun leveling in that game than any I can think of.
BTW, that comparison to "the game doesn't start till max level" (WOW) and "deathball" (SC2) was REALLY astute IMO.
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The only large "good" gaming company left that I can think of right now is Valve.
There are many great smaller indie companies, but their games often suffer from a lack of production quality that make them unattractive to the majority of gamers, and quite often those companies go out of business after a few years.
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Everything about your post hinges on your own opinions. You thought D2 was great because of how long it took, yet MAAAAAAANY other people completely got around that with map hacks and teleporting (either a sorc before enigma, or enigma when it came out). You think that SC2 is all about the deathball, ignoring the entire period of time before that (more and more games are not really maxed out armies). You think WoW is all about the very endgame, ignoring that tons of people make alts, travel, do tradeskills or now do pet battles. You are basically ignoring huuuuuuuge aspects of the games to try and make a point.
Then there is the issue of you praising TL2 for all of these things but fail to mention how they differ from other games. Why does gaining a level feel special in TL2 and not in D3? Why does a unique feel unique in TL2, but a legendary not legendary in D3?
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EPT
