EPTYou aren't doing yourselves any favors. - Page 2
| Blogs > Gheed |
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IMHope
Korea (South)1241 Posts
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
 I agree with Avilo's post, if we want the game to be successful the gameplay needs to improve, right now It's awful. ( in my opinion ) We have a lot of problems, but the biggest one is that It's just not as entertaining to spectate the game right now. Matchups are stagnant, lack of Terrans in tournaments outside the GSL makes this even worse. I can predict 90% of PvZ's by what happens in the first 10 minutes even if the game is 50 minutes long, where's the excitement? Even in the GSL finals, Life vs Mvp, it was far too predictable. Mvp played Mech every game. It boiled down to " Did Mvp kill enough drones with his Hellions to allow himself to reach his maxed Mech army before Life is able to have a sufficient Brood Lord/Infestor army to deal with it? If Yes, Mvp wins. If no, Life wins. | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On October 22 2012 11:11 Waxangel wrote: hahahahahahahahahahahahaha I don't know what kind of mental contortions you had to do to think you're entitled to say that Haha win of thread. Gheed is like some sort of mix between Jesus, Socrates, A missionary, and Yoda. He's either doing some bullshit with weird ass people or he's making critiques of a community he is a demigod of, yet doesn't reside in. Gheed is an iconic TLer that rarely goes to TL. He found our drama storm through the LoL reddit after playing LoL. But his reputation negates such a travesty. As to Jesu- I mean Gheed's point, I've indulged in a terribad blog and some discussion since the drama happened(thoughvmy fight was mostly over the GSL finals that were swept up into the sc2 is failing idea)..I realized I just need to go back to RL and let GSL up and downs and then season 5 happen, let time pass so i can go to mlg columbus this winter and compete and watch, and let a week pass and My home page won't have so many damn hot threads relating to drama. Truely, the canvas of the community is painted red right now, but give it time and we'll be back to our original delightful hues. So Gheed says stop being so negative----> I say it will happen as the drama dies down. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33479 Posts
On October 22 2012 11:12 Chef wrote: zz I'm not always a bastion of positivity, but I know I've read posts where people did something creative and directly credited me as an inspiration for doing it because they'd enjoyed random battle reports and stuff I'd done. My negativity never produced anything good, my positivity did. I'd say I am qualified in that I've seen both sides of the coin. I don't think it's that nice to make fun of a depressed person tho. Of course I am going to have my bad moments. it's too late, we all know you want SC2 to die | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
People expect blizzard to make fantastic games ala BW, and feel let down because they paid $60~ for it. Whereas in league, you don't need to spend any money unless you have fun. I know i've spent something like $75-100 because it was an awesome game and I wanted to support it (this was way before it was at 15 million players&such). But with star2, people paid up front and want a reward for it, instead of rewarding blizzard for doing a good job. | ||
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Lysteria
France2280 Posts
That being said, except for trolling purpose when talking with friends, I've never bashed SC2 because it's inferior to BW or whatever. And next to that, I read every day some bashing on LoL and it clearly not put me in a right mood to "promote the real e-sport". Most of the people I know just don't care about SC2. To be fair, they just don't care about e-sports. If a link is put on their client from time to time, they'll probably watch it, not because it's the goddamn sacred E-SPORT, but because it's a game they play and enjoy. As far as we all are fans of SC2/BW/anything, our fanatism only represent a small part of the gaming community, and a smaller part of the world population. If I had one, just one advice to give to SC2 - a probably not dead game, I'm sure of it - try to give others your love for the game, not your hate for the others. If we take a look at football, so many hundred of millions of people watch it because hundred of millions of others watch it. It's easy to share something when you have a highly chance of knowing someone else watching it. It doesn't mean football has the best rules in the world. Nor that their players are the strongest athletes in the world, but still, a lot of people watch it. If you want to promote handball, volleyball, curling or chess boxing, hell, it's not by saying football fans are morons you'll convince them to follow you. Hell, I'll probably give HotS a try if you guys are a little bit positive about it one day. :p | ||
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On October 22 2012 11:07 avilo wrote: When it comes down to it, the game will thrive or die based off of the gameplay. The gameplay has to be there. Take a long hard look at how wings of liberty plays out right now. The gameplay has to be good and exciting to watch and unpredictable as well. Viewers are very smart nowadays. You can only say so many times "amazing fungals" in casts. Viewers are very easily going to pick up that something is wrong with the game if there is something so overwhelmingly good that every game boils down to using it. I know that's not what a lot of people want to hear, they want to hear other things, but it's the gameplay. You cannot hide viewers from the actual game. If every game ends up being broodlord infestor, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Sure, UI issues could be a lot better, among other things, but once again, it boils down to gameplay, gameplay, gameplay. Lots of us here watched brood war for 10+ years because of the gameplay. We were excited to see what strategies the pros would pull out their next pro game, or how certain players would play against others. Every game certainly was not the same as the last, nor were they predictable in the least. Can you honestly with your heart say that right now about wings of liberty? Lots of people that came from other RTS communities saw their games like AOE, cnc, etc. die because the developers failed to balance their game and address easily identifiable design issues. As a viewer of SC2 right now, watching every game boil down to infestor/broodlord, and seeing no Terrans in the scene compared to Z/Ps is frustrating to say the least. People think chat channels will magically fix all of this. They are a great start, but the gameplay matters the most. Yeah man, being the most well represented race in every single season of code s must be really rough. Clearly needs more terrans. And every season this year they were also the most well represented race in code a. And last I checked nobody seemed to have an issue with every ZvZ in Broodwar being muta ling and defilers and science vessels being used in every ZvT that hit late game... Lots of people got tired of hearing "PLAGUUUUUU!!!!" right? Note: I am not saying the game is in any way imbalanced. Also, if you want to complain about any matchup being uninteresting I think ZvP is the one that most needs fixing, with PvP up there as well, although PvP has gotten somewhat better on its own lately, so maybe it just needs more time. | ||
Spazer
Canada8032 Posts
On October 22 2012 12:16 turdburgler wrote: ye, remember when everyone was really negative about sc2:WoL and that caused no one to play it oh wait Except that was an April Fools joke... | ||
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Mauldo
United States750 Posts
On October 22 2012 10:08 Gheed wrote: That whole "the Starcraft community is the most mature, well-mannered gaming community" spiel didn't make it much past 2010. While I agree with most of your blog, this is what I have been shouting from the rooftops since Day 30. Once the month or so long honeymoon wore off, this community has been shit. But people kept building themselves up as a great community, and when you do that, you get stuff like emailing sponsors and turning Reddit/TL into a burning, toiling morass of "Let's complain about Blizzard here!" There's a reason I've slowly moved toward DOTA2, and I swear it's not because I'm bad at SC2. Though I totally am. It's because this community has some kind of identity disorder where they call themselves the best and most well-mannered community as they regularly show themselves as the exact opposite. Why would I continue watching Dreamhack when they have 5 or fewer Koreans and are STILL called the best tourney ever by Europeans, but MLG has 10 or more, and top quality foreigner talent, and it's shit on by Europeans for no actual reason? There are blatantly obvious camps of hate and frustration and immaturity in this community, and I've been calling them out from day one. You can only take so much of seeing European xenophobia (while they call out American xenophobia) while seeing Korean racism while seeing prize pool e-peen measuring while seeing constant shit being piled on Browder/Kim, while seeing constant drama over complete bullshit, while having to put up with drama babies that apparently have never been on the Internet before (read: Every European that honestly got offended during the "USA! USA!" chants for Stephano at MLG. I was at Columbus, and he fucking loved it. Everyone here, though, apparently thought we should be arrested for insulting him. Too bad he wasn't insulted, huh?). So now I'm watching a lot more DOTA2, and watching much less SC2. I'll always watch State of the Game, and I'll always follow dem Teamliquid players, but don't let anyone tell you differently. I left because of the community, not because of the game. The game was fine. Fun even. This community sucked every little bit of fun they could out of it though. And it's a really sad thing. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On October 22 2012 12:25 GTPGlitch wrote: LoL's f2p model, as well as it being a new game, are large parts of why the community is much better than star2 at the moment I think. People expect blizzard to make fantastic games ala BW, and feel let down because they paid $60~ for it. Whereas in league, you don't need to spend any money unless you have fun. I know i've spent something like $75-100 because it was an awesome game and I wanted to support it (this was way before it was at 15 million players&such). But with star2, people paid up front and want a reward for it, instead of rewarding blizzard for doing a good job. Just to clear this up LoL is not a new game it was released in 2009, a ~year before WoL. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
And I do hate to see some of this community go apeshit everytime something of little consequence happens just so they can have another fill of drama. But more than that I get angry every time a complaint thread pops up and the first reply I see is someone saying "no, this isn't true, it will be fine, the game is GREAT, don't complain because you aren't satisfied, this has been said before..." Why do you think these complaints keep popping up again and again? Because people CARE. They are passionate. They love this game. And they want to see it be the best, in all points of development. Gameplay and UI wise. They desperately want to see this game become the modern pinnacle of eSport, a holy grail, the best modern RTS game that is constantly improved and played for another decade. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
We need to stop being so fucking negative. Thats it. Blizzard just have no chance of making it right. New Units: Bahhh they aren´t creative and recycling BW units or bahhh these new units don´t fit with Starcraft. ESport and money support: Bahhh they aren´t committing to Esport or They suck they have to give money to make the bad game Esport. Blizzard don´t listen: Blizzard fucking don´t listen to the community or Wait what Blizzard balanced the game for Avilo... hmmm not good  | ||
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iksi
25 Posts
On October 22 2012 14:50 USvBleakill wrote: Thats it. Blizzard just have no chance of making it right. Well if I would do extremely shitty job at my work 24 months straight, I just might get replaced. Blizzard folks have been trying to make Sc2 work over 2 years now. And its just bad Zergcraft game. Maybe, just maybe if you cannot make it work in 24 months, you never can & should hire someone who can. and maybe, if some other races would be playable in HOTS than just Zerg like in WoL now, ppl might find Sc2 attractive again.. and hey ! maybe even find some Terrans in ladder / GM - Now that is an outrageous idea right ! I know. User was warned for this post | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On October 22 2012 11:07 avilo wrote: When it comes down to it, the game will thrive or die based off of the gameplay. The gameplay has to be there. Take a long hard look at how wings of liberty plays out right now. The gameplay has to be good and exciting to watch and unpredictable as well. Viewers are very smart nowadays. You can only say so many times "amazing fungals" in casts. Viewers are very easily going to pick up that something is wrong with the game if there is something so overwhelmingly good that every game boils down to using it. I know that's not what a lot of people want to hear, they want to hear other things, but it's the gameplay. You cannot hide viewers from the actual game. If every game ends up being broodlord infestor, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Sure, UI issues could be a lot better, among other things, but once again, it boils down to gameplay, gameplay, gameplay. Lots of us here watched brood war for 10+ years because of the gameplay. We were excited to see what strategies the pros would pull out their next pro game, or how certain players would play against others. Every game certainly was not the same as the last, nor were they predictable in the least. Can you honestly with your heart say that right now about wings of liberty? Lots of people that came from other RTS communities saw their games like AOE, cnc, etc. die because the developers failed to balance their game and address easily identifiable design issues. As a viewer of SC2 right now, watching every game boil down to infestor/broodlord, and seeing no Terrans in the scene compared to Z/Ps is frustrating to say the least. People think chat channels will magically fix all of this. They are a great start, but the gameplay matters the most. Even as a Zerg player who usually hates avilo balance whine... I agree with this. The game play is so stagnant. I keep drawing parallels to what is happening to the SC2 community right now and the Halo community. Halo 1/2 were extremely skill oriented games, which many hardcore Halo players still play, and ignore the noob fest that are Halo 3/Reach. Not to say Halo 3/Reach are bad shooters, but once you got to the top level of play, there was very little separating elite players from average pros, as compared to it's two predecessors. But during Halo 3's boom, it was the premier game of MLG, esports did not really exist yet aside from BW (which was only in Korea), so Halo enjoyed a great lack of competition, and people ignored the flaws of the game because they had no worries of the boom ending. And with Halo:Reach coming out, people expected it to just continue. But out came SC2, LoL, DotA, etc, and suddenly everyone was complaining about how Halo:Reach sucked, how MLG had deserted Halo and switched to SC2, how Halo pros were streaming SC2 occasionally (sound familiar to SC2 players complaining about Tasteless casting GOM, or players switching to LoL?), etc. Then FINALLY came everyone admitting that the game is crap, and complaining to the devs, Bungie. Bungie didn't really give af, and after ignoring our begging for a patch, finally passed Halo over to 343 Studios, who patched the game, but too late. A bunch of the community had gone/switched to other games, pros were already frustrated, older pros had lost their drive and retired... the community/pros tried to have a "revival" where they all came together and were positive and released content and tried to have a huge showing at MLG to keep Halo at events, but it didn't work. Why? Because the game still needs to be good. The community can be as positive as they want, but if the game is boring then you are not going anywhere. SC2 right now is boring in ZvT and ZvP. TvP is decent, ZvZ and PvP are stable and can have some interesting builds, but still usually end up the standard roach/infestor/hydra vs roach/infestor/hydra and war of the worlds, respectively. Or an all in. The most interesting match up is TvT, due to the skill ceiling of Terran. What we need is a generalized consensus between the pros, the community, and Blizzard on how exactly we need to approach this game in HotS from a design perspective to make it more skill oriented. Casuals can always be brought in using tactics described in other blogs (lots more fun arcade/custom games, friendlier UI, etc) but we NEED a top level game to remain the premier e-sport. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
I don't think pointless bitching and witchhunting and general insanity helps anyone. There is constructive criticism (and that does not just mean crap in a comment sandwich) that comes from some people. Well thought out, reasoned posts that are emotionally neutral debates of the pros or cons of some unit, strategy, whatever. Then there are shitfests of emotional pleas, begging of the developer, or "this is happening and it sucks and we're all playing a dead game blah blah blah". Need more of the former, and less of the latter. Happy lanes Gheed. (Or are you jungling?) (Am I doing it right?) As far as chat channels, I miss Terran Strategy on NA. Even the trolls were occassionally fun to talk to. -_-' So, I guess the thread goes back to bitching now? (Insert Avilo joke here.) | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
On October 22 2012 15:27 Flonomenalz wrote: Even as a Zerg player who usually hates avilo balance whine... I agree with this. The game play is so stagnant. I keep drawing parallels to what is happening to the SC2 community right now and the Halo community. Halo 1/2 were extremely skill oriented games, which many hardcore Halo players still play, and ignore the noob fest that are Halo 3/Reach. Not to say Halo 3/Reach are bad shooters, but once you got to the top level of play, there was very little separating elite players from average pros, as compared to it's two predecessors. But during Halo 3's boom, it was the premier game of MLG, esports did not really exist yet aside from BW (which was only in Korea), so Halo enjoyed a great lack of competition, and people ignored the flaws of the game because they had no worries of the boom ending. And with Halo:Reach coming out, people expected it to just continue. But out came SC2, LoL, DotA, etc, and suddenly everyone was complaining about how Halo:Reach sucked, how MLG had deserted Halo and switched to SC2, how Halo pros were streaming SC2 occasionally (sound familiar to SC2 players complaining about Tasteless casting GOM, or players switching to LoL?), etc. Then FINALLY came everyone admitting that the game is crap, and complaining to the devs, Bungie. Bungie didn't really give af, and after ignoring our begging for a patch, finally passed Halo over to 343 Studios, who patched the game, but too late. A bunch of the community had gone/switched to other games, pros were already frustrated, older pros had lost their drive and retired... the community/pros tried to have a "revival" where they all came together and were positive and released content and tried to have a huge showing at MLG to keep Halo at events, but it didn't work. Why? Because the game still needs to be good. The community can be as positive as they want, but if the game is boring then you are not going anywhere. SC2 right now is boring in ZvT and ZvP. TvP is decent, ZvZ and PvP are stable and can have some interesting builds, but still usually end up the standard roach/infestor/hydra vs roach/infestor/hydra and war of the worlds, respectively. Or an all in. The most interesting match up is TvT, due to the skill ceiling of Terran. What we need is a generalized consensus between the pros, the community, and Blizzard on how exactly we need to approach this game in HotS from a design perspective to make it more skill oriented. Casuals can always be brought in using tactics described in other blogs (lots more fun arcade/custom games, friendlier UI, etc) but we NEED a top level game to remain the premier e-sport. This post takes the thread. There is really nothing left to be said, SC2 has been running on hype for 2 years. There are too many glaring flaws for it stay sustainable with how its like right now. | ||
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