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On October 21 2012 09:09 Doubting wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 02:09 Irre wrote:
MVP played far superior, with Life basically just abusing how infestor protects/counters every unit in the game. MVP made some critical small mistakes despite being pretty ahead most games that he lost, and its a real shame that he lost the series. I appreciate that you mentioned the 4th going down in the first game I honestly think no matter what else happened he wins that game fi he had that 4th up for the viking production/reinforcements on his push or for a followup. Those crucial few seconds he didnt repair cost him game 1 IMO. The 3rd cancel on Ohana was pretty much GG. Daybreak was heartbreaking to watch a zerg go 10 pool do nothing, lose tons of drones late 3rd rush muta, do no damage, then just easily win with infestors. MVP should not have spread his army so much but i can see why he felt he had to push. Overall they both played well, I just wish the state of WoL wasn't so grim. After two years, players being so good, it just makes units like Sentry, Infestor, Collosus look so broken and damaging to the integrity of the game. Life outplayed Mvp very brutally. Mvp's only wins were from cheeses
It's probably worth pointing out that Life opened 10 pool twice in the series, on daybreak and whirlwind, and this build is designed to only be good against CC first. It's quite cheesy, though I guess it's fine if they go 1 rax fe?! He also went 14 (or 15?) pool on entombed before his hatchery, probably to try and catch out MVP doing 11/11, which is rather common on entombed.
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On October 21 2012 10:12 Fencar wrote:
Great analysis!
Does anyone else feel like Mvp was trying to do too much damage, rather than taking the least damage?
What I mean is, he kept suiciding most of his Hellions in most of his games and kept making Tanks, which is extremely aggressive which is not what Mech is about.
I also feel like everyone underestimates Thors in TvZ. Sure they're not as good as Tanks against Roaches, Lings, and Infestors, but they're not bad either, and are great as support units for Vikings, forcing the Zerg to spread his air, and are far better against tech switches which is what Mvp lost to in G2 after sending many of his Tanks to attack as if they were MM.
I would argue that in the current meta, mech v Z is about doing Eco damage early with hellions and pushing out before the Zerg has broodlords/corr/infestors in high number. A maxed mech army still doesn't trade well with that if both sides are spread. The best outcome is probably an even trade and Zerg will rebuild faster. So I actually think mech does have to be aggressive.
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I think a large factor Mvp lost this game was his followup in the early game; when the mutas came he made four Vikings to deal with the mutas. If he made two factories and an extra two turrets, he could have defended AND set up his production much much earlier. Then, his timing push to Life’s 4th would have come much much earlier.
I think this is a really interesting point. It also made me realize how expensive vikings are compared to production buildings lol.
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On October 21 2012 10:32 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 10:12 Fencar wrote:
Great analysis!
Does anyone else feel like Mvp was trying to do too much damage, rather than taking the least damage?
What I mean is, he kept suiciding most of his Hellions in most of his games and kept making Tanks, which is extremely aggressive which is not what Mech is about.
I also feel like everyone underestimates Thors in TvZ. Sure they're not as good as Tanks against Roaches, Lings, and Infestors, but they're not bad either, and are great as support units for Vikings, forcing the Zerg to spread his air, and are far better against tech switches which is what Mvp lost to in G2 after sending many of his Tanks to attack as if they were MM. I would argue that in the current meta, mech v Z is about doing Eco damage early with hellions and pushing out before the Zerg has broodlords/corr/infestors in high number. A maxed mech army still doesn't trade well with that if both sides are spread. The best outcome is probably an even trade and Zerg will rebuild faster. So I actually think mech does have to be aggressive. I feel like that depends on compositions. (note: lots of theory crafting, just spewing ideas here)
Say there have been no major engagements and both sides are maxed, the Terran opening Hellion/Banshee and the Zerg opening 6 queen in some way, the compositions can vary wildly for both players, but I feel like Mech has the advantage so long as the Mech player doesn't take huge amounts of damage, due to the power of static defenses like PF's, the fact that Mech players usually have huge Mineral banks in the late-game, letting them spend lots of money on relatively cheap Factories with tech labs, and (relatively) cost-effective but supply-inefficient Thors, Hellions, and Banshees, which cost less gas than Tanks.
Alternatively, the Terran can play it like Mvp does, making Vikings and Turrets for AA defense, lots of Tanks, few Thors later, suiciding Hellions, and taking down creep with Banshees rather than killing Drones.
My problem with this is that creep is going to extend no matter what you do, and the time frame in which Banshee harass is effective is very limited. Also, Hellions are great units for a meatshield in the Terran Mech army, since there are so many Zerg units, more splash is always good, especially when it doesn't damage your own units.
I find when playing and watching, Tanks are good in the early and mid game, but only against ground-based armies. As soon as the Zerg gets Air, their effectiveness is heavily diminished when made en-masse, and you have to rely on Vikings and Thors to kill the Air units.
All-in-all, for these reasons I feel like this makes Mvp's style more effective in the early and mid-game, but far less effective in the late-game since he keeps on making Tanks, and has few Hellions, while more Thors in the late-game would be better against tech switches as it has a very strong GtG attack as well as a GtA attack .5 range higher than the Broodlord, plus ability to be repaired.
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On October 21 2012 11:36 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 10:32 vthree wrote:On October 21 2012 10:12 Fencar wrote:
Great analysis!
Does anyone else feel like Mvp was trying to do too much damage, rather than taking the least damage?
What I mean is, he kept suiciding most of his Hellions in most of his games and kept making Tanks, which is extremely aggressive which is not what Mech is about.
I also feel like everyone underestimates Thors in TvZ. Sure they're not as good as Tanks against Roaches, Lings, and Infestors, but they're not bad either, and are great as support units for Vikings, forcing the Zerg to spread his air, and are far better against tech switches which is what Mvp lost to in G2 after sending many of his Tanks to attack as if they were MM. I would argue that in the current meta, mech v Z is about doing Eco damage early with hellions and pushing out before the Zerg has broodlords/corr/infestors in high number. A maxed mech army still doesn't trade well with that if both sides are spread. The best outcome is probably an even trade and Zerg will rebuild faster. So I actually think mech does have to be aggressive. I feel like that depends on compositions. (note: lots of theory crafting, just spewing ideas here) Say there have been no major engagements and both sides are maxed, the Terran opening Hellion/Banshee and the Zerg opening 6 queen in some way, the compositions can vary wildly for both players, but I feel like Mech has the advantage so long as the Mech player doesn't take huge amounts of damage, due to the power of static defenses like PF's, the fact that Mech players usually have huge Mineral banks in the late-game, letting them spend lots of money on relatively cheap Factories with tech labs, and (relatively) cost-effective but supply-inefficient Thors, Hellions, and Banshees, which cost less gas than Tanks. Alternatively, the Terran can play it like Mvp does, making Vikings and Turrets for AA defense, lots of Tanks, few Thors later, suiciding Hellions, and taking down creep with Banshees rather than killing Drones. My problem with this is that creep is going to extend no matter what you do, and the time frame in which Banshee harass is effective is very limited. Also, Hellions are great units for a meatshield in the Terran Mech army, since there are so many Zerg units, more splash is always good, especially when it doesn't damage your own units. I find when playing and watching, Tanks are good in the early and mid game, but only against ground-based armies. As soon as the Zerg gets Air, their effectiveness is heavily diminished when made en-masse, and you have to rely on Vikings and Thors to kill the Air units. All-in-all, for these reasons I feel like this makes Mvp's style more effective in the early and mid-game, but far less effective in the late-game since he keeps on making Tanks, and has few Hellions, while more Thors in the late-game would be better against tech switches as it has a very strong GtG attack as well as a GtA attack .5 range higher than the Broodlord, plus ability to be repaired.
PFs are nullified once BLs are out. And Thors are not great vs BLs unless you have a lot of hellion support. And if you don't have enough tanks, the Zerg can tech switch to roaches which Thors are horrible against.
If you look at game 7, Mvp actually had too many Thors and thus late tanks and he got killed by the roach counter.
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On October 21 2012 12:11 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 11:36 Fencar wrote:On October 21 2012 10:32 vthree wrote:On October 21 2012 10:12 Fencar wrote:
Great analysis!
Does anyone else feel like Mvp was trying to do too much damage, rather than taking the least damage?
What I mean is, he kept suiciding most of his Hellions in most of his games and kept making Tanks, which is extremely aggressive which is not what Mech is about.
I also feel like everyone underestimates Thors in TvZ. Sure they're not as good as Tanks against Roaches, Lings, and Infestors, but they're not bad either, and are great as support units for Vikings, forcing the Zerg to spread his air, and are far better against tech switches which is what Mvp lost to in G2 after sending many of his Tanks to attack as if they were MM. I would argue that in the current meta, mech v Z is about doing Eco damage early with hellions and pushing out before the Zerg has broodlords/corr/infestors in high number. A maxed mech army still doesn't trade well with that if both sides are spread. The best outcome is probably an even trade and Zerg will rebuild faster. So I actually think mech does have to be aggressive. I feel like that depends on compositions. (note: lots of theory crafting, just spewing ideas here) Say there have been no major engagements and both sides are maxed, the Terran opening Hellion/Banshee and the Zerg opening 6 queen in some way, the compositions can vary wildly for both players, but I feel like Mech has the advantage so long as the Mech player doesn't take huge amounts of damage, due to the power of static defenses like PF's, the fact that Mech players usually have huge Mineral banks in the late-game, letting them spend lots of money on relatively cheap Factories with tech labs, and (relatively) cost-effective but supply-inefficient Thors, Hellions, and Banshees, which cost less gas than Tanks. Alternatively, the Terran can play it like Mvp does, making Vikings and Turrets for AA defense, lots of Tanks, few Thors later, suiciding Hellions, and taking down creep with Banshees rather than killing Drones. My problem with this is that creep is going to extend no matter what you do, and the time frame in which Banshee harass is effective is very limited. Also, Hellions are great units for a meatshield in the Terran Mech army, since there are so many Zerg units, more splash is always good, especially when it doesn't damage your own units. I find when playing and watching, Tanks are good in the early and mid game, but only against ground-based armies. As soon as the Zerg gets Air, their effectiveness is heavily diminished when made en-masse, and you have to rely on Vikings and Thors to kill the Air units. All-in-all, for these reasons I feel like this makes Mvp's style more effective in the early and mid-game, but far less effective in the late-game since he keeps on making Tanks, and has few Hellions, while more Thors in the late-game would be better against tech switches as it has a very strong GtG attack as well as a GtA attack .5 range higher than the Broodlord, plus ability to be repaired. PFs are nullified once BLs are out. And Thors are not great vs BLs unless you have a lot of hellion support. And if you don't have enough tanks, the Zerg can tech switch to roaches which Thors are horrible against. If you look at game 7, Mvp actually had too many Thors and thus late tanks and he got killed by the roach counter. At equal or similar supply with even a couple Tanks to support, Thors shred Roaches. It's in the early or mid game when you have less than 80 supply or so of Thor/Tank when Roaches crush you. If you trade okay in a fight aginast Zerg in the late game, then you can always retreat while harassing his bases with easy to replenish Hellions.
PF's are great for delaying as they have a moderately powerful attack, 1500 HP, and 5 armor after being upgraded with the relatively low cost of 550/150, though their build time is enormous. It also says to the Zerg "If you fight me in this area while I have any army here you die" because any Zerglings, Roaches, etc will have to go through that PF in order to get to your army.
Of course you need Tanks early if the Zerg is going for Roaches, but you severely underestiamte Banshees Edit: We forgot about Banshees (standard hellion banshee opener gives you at least 3), which give you ample warning and the ability to defend any point of your base from Roaches, albiet with relatively low DPS due to their double attack and lack of numbers.
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On October 21 2012 12:52 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 12:11 vthree wrote:On October 21 2012 11:36 Fencar wrote:On October 21 2012 10:32 vthree wrote:On October 21 2012 10:12 Fencar wrote:
Great analysis!
Does anyone else feel like Mvp was trying to do too much damage, rather than taking the least damage?
What I mean is, he kept suiciding most of his Hellions in most of his games and kept making Tanks, which is extremely aggressive which is not what Mech is about.
I also feel like everyone underestimates Thors in TvZ. Sure they're not as good as Tanks against Roaches, Lings, and Infestors, but they're not bad either, and are great as support units for Vikings, forcing the Zerg to spread his air, and are far better against tech switches which is what Mvp lost to in G2 after sending many of his Tanks to attack as if they were MM. I would argue that in the current meta, mech v Z is about doing Eco damage early with hellions and pushing out before the Zerg has broodlords/corr/infestors in high number. A maxed mech army still doesn't trade well with that if both sides are spread. The best outcome is probably an even trade and Zerg will rebuild faster. So I actually think mech does have to be aggressive. I feel like that depends on compositions. (note: lots of theory crafting, just spewing ideas here) Say there have been no major engagements and both sides are maxed, the Terran opening Hellion/Banshee and the Zerg opening 6 queen in some way, the compositions can vary wildly for both players, but I feel like Mech has the advantage so long as the Mech player doesn't take huge amounts of damage, due to the power of static defenses like PF's, the fact that Mech players usually have huge Mineral banks in the late-game, letting them spend lots of money on relatively cheap Factories with tech labs, and (relatively) cost-effective but supply-inefficient Thors, Hellions, and Banshees, which cost less gas than Tanks. Alternatively, the Terran can play it like Mvp does, making Vikings and Turrets for AA defense, lots of Tanks, few Thors later, suiciding Hellions, and taking down creep with Banshees rather than killing Drones. My problem with this is that creep is going to extend no matter what you do, and the time frame in which Banshee harass is effective is very limited. Also, Hellions are great units for a meatshield in the Terran Mech army, since there are so many Zerg units, more splash is always good, especially when it doesn't damage your own units. I find when playing and watching, Tanks are good in the early and mid game, but only against ground-based armies. As soon as the Zerg gets Air, their effectiveness is heavily diminished when made en-masse, and you have to rely on Vikings and Thors to kill the Air units. All-in-all, for these reasons I feel like this makes Mvp's style more effective in the early and mid-game, but far less effective in the late-game since he keeps on making Tanks, and has few Hellions, while more Thors in the late-game would be better against tech switches as it has a very strong GtG attack as well as a GtA attack .5 range higher than the Broodlord, plus ability to be repaired. PFs are nullified once BLs are out. And Thors are not great vs BLs unless you have a lot of hellion support. And if you don't have enough tanks, the Zerg can tech switch to roaches which Thors are horrible against. If you look at game 7, Mvp actually had too many Thors and thus late tanks and he got killed by the roach counter. At equal or similar supply with even a couple Tanks to support, Thors shred Roaches. It's in the early or mid game when you have less than 80 supply or so of Thor/Tank when Roaches crush you. If you trade okay in a fight aginast Zerg in the late game, then you can always retreat while harassing his bases with easy to replenish Hellions. PF's are great for delaying as they have a moderately powerful attack, 1500 HP, and 5 armor after being upgraded with the relatively low cost of 550/150, though their build time is enormous. It also says to the Zerg "If you fight me in this area while I have any army here you die" because any Zerglings, Roaches, etc will have to go through that PF in order to get to your army. Of course you need Tanks early if the Zerg is going for Roaches, but you severely underestiamte Banshees Edit: We forgot about Banshees (standard hellion banshee opener gives you at least 3), which give you ample warning and the ability to defend any point of your base from Roaches, albiet with relatively low DPS due to their double attack and lack of numbers.
Mvp didn't build banshees in g7 because mutas were already out.
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Thanks Kawaii! I missed the finals so this was the perfect thing to help me catch up on it. Cheers!
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These games did not feel healthy. It really felt like the culmination of terran auto-loss late game. Literally the difference between games Life won and lost was whether he made it to brood lords or not.
This is not a balance whine, it was clear MVP and Life were evenly matched. Early game hellions offset late game brood lords.
Something has gone wrong though. As WoL has gotten more refined it is starting to reveal gaping holes in how the matchups play out. ZvT should not be decided by a timer.
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On October 21 2012 19:35 r691175002 wrote:
These games did not feel healthy. It really felt like the culmination of terran auto-loss late game. Literally the difference between games Life won and lost was whether he made it to brood lords or not.
This is not a balance whine, it was clear MVP and Life were evenly matched. Early game hellions offset late game brood lords.
Something has gone wrong though. As WoL has gotten more refined it is starting to reveal gaping holes in how the matchups play out. ZvT should not be decided by a timer.
They were not evenly matched.
Life outplayed MVP. He got into his head, constantly delaying his pre-Brood timings with the THREAT of runbys. He out micro'd him at key moments when it counted (that lack of Viking split probably lost MVP the series). Sure, it's easy to fungal, but it doesn't take much effort to pre-split Vikings either.
I wish we could have seen MVP incorporate just a few ghosts in the late game for EMP. Why do people think you can beat the best spell caster in the game without using your own spell caster? Ghost vs HT is standard in late game TvP, why are ghosts ignored in TvZ? Just because Snipe isn't OP any more doesn't mean they are useless.
I remember IdrA talking about ghost mech over a year ago and how once Terrans mastered it, it would be imbalanced... maybe I'm just theorycrafting out of my ass here, but have any of the top Terrans in here tried it? I figure it's worth it to get 3-4 rax w/ tech labs, a ghost academy, and get cloak as opposed to going for tight window, pre-Brood timings. With lower amounts of fungals due to EMP, Viking splits and Thor/Hellion Support with repairing scvs... you should be even with BL/Corruptor/Infestor/Queen... right?
Not to mention you can use the tech lab rax for marauders if he switches over to Ultras. But then the issue would be the rauders would lack upgrades...
Hmm Terran upgrades are really tough.
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I found the monotonic play of mvp pretty questionable. Mech every game, with only 2 build orders over 7 maps. I like the blue flame hellion build, but i think he could have done a better job hard countering life.
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wow, this is so awesome.
i learned so much about tvz from this
6/5 
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I think it wasn't just that MVP played sloppy as much as Life's style eventually got to him and wore him down both mentally and certainly physically with the issues hes been having.
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On October 22 2012 00:28 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
I found the monotonic play of mvp pretty questionable. Mech every game, with only 2 build orders over 7 maps. I like the blue flame hellion build, but i think he could have done a better job hard countering life.
Yes, because MKP and Taeja showed everyone how to counter Life's mass ling style with bio and bio tank, right? I think Life is at a level where going bio or bio tank is pretty suicidal. Why are people still questioning Mvp's strategy when he went 3-4 compare with 1-6 from MKP and Taeja.
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On October 21 2012 20:28 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 19:35 r691175002 wrote:
These games did not feel healthy. It really felt like the culmination of terran auto-loss late game. Literally the difference between games Life won and lost was whether he made it to brood lords or not.
This is not a balance whine, it was clear MVP and Life were evenly matched. Early game hellions offset late game brood lords.
Something has gone wrong though. As WoL has gotten more refined it is starting to reveal gaping holes in how the matchups play out. ZvT should not be decided by a timer. They were not evenly matched. Life outplayed MVP. He got into his head, constantly delaying his pre-Brood timings with the THREAT of runbys. He out micro'd him at key moments when it counted (that lack of Viking split probably lost MVP the series). Sure, it's easy to fungal, but it doesn't take much effort to pre-split Vikings either. I wish we could have seen MVP incorporate just a few ghosts in the late game for EMP. Why do people think you can beat the best spell caster in the game without using your own spell caster? Ghost vs HT is standard in late game TvP, why are ghosts ignored in TvZ? Just because Snipe isn't OP any more doesn't mean they are useless. I remember IdrA talking about ghost mech over a year ago and how once Terrans mastered it, it would be imbalanced... maybe I'm just theorycrafting out of my ass here, but have any of the top Terrans in here tried it? I figure it's worth it to get 3-4 rax w/ tech labs, a ghost academy, and get cloak as opposed to going for tight window, pre-Brood timings. With lower amounts of fungals due to EMP, Viking splits and Thor/Hellion Support with repairing scvs... you should be even with BL/Corruptor/Infestor/Queen... right? Not to mention you can use the tech lab rax for marauders if he switches over to Ultras. But then the issue would be the rauders would lack upgrades... Hmm Terran upgrades are really tough.
In theory, this could work. However, I think you can max out on BL/corr/Infestor quite a bit faster then ghost/hellion/thor/vikings. And if you cannot harass effectively mid game, you are probably look at a 5 base (possibly 6) zerg. And even if you do trade evenly, they can surely remax much much faster and just kill you before you can rebuild with mech. You simply can't 'trade' with mech since it just takes so much longer to build.
That is why when you see mech win vs Zerg, it is all about the harassment throughout the game to slow down the zerg. It is rare to win a max vs max fight. You can do it with ravens and seekers but that transition is even harder and not possible on most maps (Hello, Metropolis)
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Mvp didn't build banshees in g7 because mutas were already out. Please elaborate on how this matters. Mvp was ahead before his mistake attacking too early.
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On October 21 2012 20:28 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 19:35 r691175002 wrote:
These games did not feel healthy. It really felt like the culmination of terran auto-loss late game. Literally the difference between games Life won and lost was whether he made it to brood lords or not.
This is not a balance whine, it was clear MVP and Life were evenly matched. Early game hellions offset late game brood lords.
Something has gone wrong though. As WoL has gotten more refined it is starting to reveal gaping holes in how the matchups play out. ZvT should not be decided by a timer. They were not evenly matched. Life outplayed MVP. He got into his head, constantly delaying his pre-Brood timings with the THREAT of runbys. He out micro'd him at key moments when it counted (that lack of Viking split probably lost MVP the series). Sure, it's easy to fungal, but it doesn't take much effort to pre-split Vikings either. I wish we could have seen MVP incorporate just a few ghosts in the late game for EMP. Why do people think you can beat the best spell caster in the game without using your own spell caster? Ghost vs HT is standard in late game TvP, why are ghosts ignored in TvZ? Just because Snipe isn't OP any more doesn't mean they are useless. I remember IdrA talking about ghost mech over a year ago and how once Terrans mastered it, it would be imbalanced... maybe I'm just theorycrafting out of my ass here, but have any of the top Terrans in here tried it? I figure it's worth it to get 3-4 rax w/ tech labs, a ghost academy, and get cloak as opposed to going for tight window, pre-Brood timings. With lower amounts of fungals due to EMP, Viking splits and Thor/Hellion Support with repairing scvs... you should be even with BL/Corruptor/Infestor/Queen... right? Not to mention you can use the tech lab rax for marauders if he switches over to Ultras. But then the issue would be the rauders would lack upgrades... Hmm Terran upgrades are really tough.
Over a year ago Ghosts were a different unit. After the nerf to snipe I doubt Idra would say that nowadays.
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EPT
