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On October 10 2012 03:39 heyoka wrote:
Bonjwa is a term meant only to describe Savior that sometimes we use retroactively to talk about other player's careers. No one in SC2 will have that applied to them.
This. Calling anyone else a bonjwa would be just as ridiculous as saying, I don't know, we'll make Rain a dragon and now it'll be the Seven Dragons.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On October 10 2012 04:15 Diader wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:39 heyoka wrote:
Bonjwa is a term meant only to describe Savior that sometimes we use retroactively to talk about other player's careers. No one in SC2 will have that applied to them. This. Calling anyone else a bonjwa would be just as ridiculous as saying, I don't know, we'll make Rain a dragon and now it'll be the Seven Dragons.
Rain will need a new name. The 6 dragons represents a time period as well. This was a dominant time for protoss between 2008 and 2009. Quite a fun time to watch BW might I add. Bisu being the leader here of course also  So like we can't use bonjwa anymore, dragon is not possible either lol.
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On October 10 2012 03:37 DJWilma wrote:
Brings up discussion about if Rain pulls of both GSL and OSL, and continues to do so for an extended period of time, he will be considered dominant in SC2, and could get Bonjwa status on just a theoretical basis
Team Liquid reads the words Rain and Bonjwa in the same sentence and...
Your argument has no point. You could replace Rain with any other player and if he dominated for the next 5 years, you could consider it. Rain hasn't won anything yet, right now you're point is the same as if I said "If I go to Korea and win the next 8 GSL's and OSL's, there could be consideration for me becoming a bonjwa"
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Mvp destroys everything and has health issues, he is indeed God.
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On October 10 2012 02:01 LuckyFool wrote:How could the best broodwar player not be a bonjwa lol.
The same way the best SC2 players is somehow not a bonjwa? People are stupid.
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On October 10 2012 03:39 heyoka wrote:
Bonjwa is a term meant only to describe Savior that sometimes we use retroactively to talk about other player's careers. No one in SC2 will have that applied to them.
as I understand it, people looked back at Boxer, Nada, and oov's careers and decided Savior wasn't really much more dominant, if at all, than they were, so Boxer, Nada, and oov became bonjwas.
Flash is different, Flash was far more dominant than Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, or Savior, he had an 83% win rate over the course of 6 months, there were 6 major tournaments a year in BW and Flash made it to the finals of all of them and won 4, his team won both possible team leagues.
No one has ever approached Flash's dominance in BW or SC2 and he has raised the bar for "bonjwa", even if someone becomes as dominant as Boxer/Nada/oov/Savior (MVP hasn't, by the way) they will inevitably be compared to Flash and ruled to not be bonjwas.
The word is dead, Flash killed it.
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United States10252 Posts
On October 10 2012 00:54 monk. wrote:
No one is or has ever been even remotely close to Bonjwa status in sc2.
this.
also, bonjwa was a stupid word thrown around in bw anyways. -.-
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I think the skill ceiling is too low in SC2 for one player to ever be sufficiently dominant. Far too much is decided on luck at the highest levels, and lack of LAN support means that having higher APM at a point will just not make you a better player, due to internet lag.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Personally, I think the term needs to die. It's frustratingly undefined, hopelessly useless, and only good at starting arguments.
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I suggest anybody who wants to talk about bonjwa to read this before discussing:
Savior, where bonjwa starts and ends.
The only other player who even remotely fulfilled most of the criteria laid out there is Flash during 09-10 season.
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I think this blog is full of shit.
Rain has not even won a major tournament yet. Yes he is doing well in two of them, but he did only get 6th in WCS Korea.
I feel like this blog has no purpose/
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On October 10 2012 05:38 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:39 heyoka wrote:
Bonjwa is a term meant only to describe Savior that sometimes we use retroactively to talk about other player's careers. No one in SC2 will have that applied to them. as I understand it, people looked back at Boxer, Nada, and oov's careers and decided Savior wasn't really much more dominant, if at all, than they were, so Boxer, Nada, and oov became bonjwas. Flash is different, Flash was far more dominant than Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, or Savior, he had an 83% win rate over the course of 6 months, there were 6 major tournaments a year in BW and Flash made it to the finals of all of them and won 4, his team won both possible team leagues. No one has ever approached Flash's dominance in BW or SC2 and he has raised the bar for "bonjwa", even if someone becomes as dominant as Boxer/Nada/oov/Savior (MVP hasn't, by the way) they will inevitably be compared to Flash and ruled to not be bonjwas. The word is dead, Flash killed it.
I like it, someone pushed bar higher, so then why there is need to put it lower again? Competition has to go on, and if we settle for Bonjwa which is worse than God than we are actually admittingly giving a second rate title to the best SC2 player ever.
Not to even mention the "God" himself was preoccupied with BW while MVP was already racking titles, competition maybe was not farce, but was lets say "incomplete" ?
Imho give MVP, MVP title
btw from jpak link this quote always made me chuckle
Boxer and Nada, "I look so good..."
Iloveoov and Savior, "I AM so good..."
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Ok let me get this straight, you are comparing rain to a bonjwa and not MVP. Let's wait til someone has maybe won at least 1 tournament before we start saying they are better than a dude who has won 8...
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United States10252 Posts
On October 10 2012 05:33 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 02:01 LuckyFool wrote:On October 10 2012 01:58 fabiano wrote:
Flash was not a bonjwa, wtf.
How could the best broodwar player not be a bonjwa lol. The same way the best SC2 players is somehow not a bonjwa? People are stupid.
no. you are being stupid. take flash's accomplishments. now take the closest SC2 pro to him. bonjwa status? i think not.
good day to you.
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On October 10 2012 00:20 DJWilma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 00:18 mizU wrote:
I feel like if MVP takes his fifth GSL... that's it already. I dont know about that though, I feel he's never dominated a time, he has had slumps during this time. Where if Rain take a GSL and OSL, where MVP alrady got eliminated from the OSL, I feel Rain will have a better shot at getting the title than MVP will.
While bonjwa isn't really used for pros anymore MVP did dominate a time.
There was a time he won a GSL and then won an MLG not long after and he was just dominating for a good 6 months or something. He did have his period of domination until his injury just makes it so he will probably never go back to that dominant force again and even if it were magically healed tomorrow I don't know if he could anymore either due to Kespa players now and how much better everyone is.
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Canada11378 Posts
On October 10 2012 03:37 DJWilma wrote:Brings up discussion about if Rain pulls of both GSL and OSL, and continues to do so for an extended period of time, he will be considered dominant in SC2, and could get Bonjwa status on just a theoretical basis Team Liquid reads the words Rain and Bonjwa in the same sentence and... *TL Reaction* ![[image loading]](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb8nbaqFs61ruqdo9.gif)
That pretty much was my reaction. I am currently borrowing a computer as a result. But more seriously, regardless of any talk of whether Bonjwa is a strictly BW term, the biggest problem with these bonjwa discussions is it is always brought up when we see a rising star. The discussion in SC2 always revolves around someone who is starting to get really good rather than someone who has been dominating for a long period of time. Current and looking back (emphasis on past) rather than current and looking forward (theoretical future). The only correct response then is to throw it on the ground!
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If someone wins something like consecutive GSL's and throws in an OSL and an MLG/DH whilst his team wins GSTL; all over the same period with an 80+% win rate (in the post-Elephant era). Then we can talk about an SC2 Bonjwa.
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On October 10 2012 11:15 Scarecrow wrote:
If someone wins something like consecutive GSL's and throws in an OSL and an MLG/DH whilst his team wins GSTL; all over the same period with an 80+% win rate (in the post-Elephant era). Then we can talk about an SC2 Bonjwa.
If we want to draw comparisons to the BW bonjwas, then said player doesn't just win games, he wins games convincingly against all but the best of best, and even those games should practically be a given. The player must also instigate huge metagame shifts that completely change a matchup(s).
This thread reminds me of God of the Battlefield, and how much I want to read Part II.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On October 10 2012 11:21 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 11:15 Scarecrow wrote:
If someone wins something like consecutive GSL's and throws in an OSL and an MLG/DH whilst his team wins GSTL; all over the same period with an 80+% win rate (in the post-Elephant era). Then we can talk about an SC2 Bonjwa. If we want to draw comparisons to the BW bonjwas, then said player doesn't just win games, he wins games convincingly against all but the best of best, and even those games should practically be a given. The player must also instigate huge metagame shifts that completely change a matchup(s). This thread reminds me of God of the Battlefield, and how much I want to read Part II.
here you go!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242118
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Bonjwa or not, MVP is by far the best SC2 player since release.
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EPT
