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On Tournament Design

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itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9152 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-29 03:10:04
September 18 2012 00:35 GMT
#1
On Tournament Design


Introduction


A moderate amount of debate has existed for some time in our community about tournament design. A number of criticisms are leveled at the current set of procedures for conducting a tournament in existence. My goal in writing this is to aggregate these voices and put forth my proposed alternative to current procedures.

Defining the ideal tournament design


Before beginning, I feel that it is probably a good idea to look at just what an ideal tournament should be, in order to compare current and potentially future practices against this mold.

As such, I feel that an ideal tournament should:
  1. Be fair — the ideal tournament should provide to competitors a level playing field to the furthest extent possible.
  2. Be reliable — the ideal tournament should return the absolute best competitors in a given pool of fellow competitors as the top placers. The ideal tournament design should also establish a way for these top competitors to prove their position by their play. As such, each and every game in the ideal tournament should be meaningful and contributory to the aforementioned goal.
  3. Be entertaining — the ideal tournament must be conducted in a way that is meaningful and entertaining for the spectating community, while still maintaining the integrity of the previous two points.
  4. Be efficient — the ideal tournament should be easily explained and understood. It is also important that the ideal tournament be reproducible and able to be used by more than one event series or organization. It follows that once an ideal tournament design is achieved, all events seek to employ or at least emulate its design. To achieve this, the ideal tournament design should avoid excessive complexity.


A survey of current tournament practices


The single-elimination tournament

The most basic tournament design is the single-elimination tournament. In a single-elimination tournament, the competitors are paired against each other in a bracket. Winners of each individual match in a bracket move on, while the losers of each individual match are immediately knocked out of tournament contention.

The simplicity of the single-elimination tournament is hedged against by a number of problems. First, single-elimination tournament design can run against the first and second tenets of an ideal tournament: fairness and reliability.

The position of any competitor within a given elimination tournament bracket at its outset is defined as a seed in that tournament. The determination of how seeds are distributed amongst a given competitor pool is the classic problem of any elimination tournament, and is most acute in the single-elimination tournament, because of the unforgiving nature of the winner-take-all approach inherent in its design. As such, tournament organizers must make a conscious decision: should they attempt to determine a fair and accurate seeding of competitors into the bracket, or should they establish seeds randomly?

Attempting to seed competitors based on past results can run into a number of problems. With the ubiquity of tournaments in the modern competitive field, how are prior results of a given player to be accurately compared with the prior results of another player? Tournaments and events in the current structure are so varied, and the establishment of seeds based on these results inevitably results in some biasing. The only really viable way for a tournament organizer to claim impartiality in decisions of seeding is if only prior results in tournaments conducted by the tournament organizer are used in the calculation.

Random seeding has its own set of problems. In seeking to be fair, random assignment of seeds into a single-elimination tournament creates unbalanced brackets and severely limits the ability of any tournament conducted in this way to produce the best of the competitor pool as the ultimate winner. Random seeding introduces the perverse possibility of the top competitors meeting in the early stages of the tournament and being knocked out, while relatively weaker players may have an easier road to the finals.

The harsh nature of single-elimination also significantly reduces the number of potentially broadcasted games an eventual loser plays in a tournament. In the field of competitive gaming, this means a significant lack of face time and return on investment present in the system. A player can be 'one and done' and out of sight very early in a tournament.

The double-elimination tournament

The structure of the double-elimination tournament seeks to address some of the issues inherent with the single-elimination tournament and discussed above. A double-elimination tournament bracket is divided into two distinct parts: an upper (winner's) bracket, and a lower (loser's) bracket. All competitors are initially included in the winner's bracket, and match play proceeds similarly to a single-elimination tournament with one significant difference. In a double-elimination tournament, competitors are not immediately knocked out of tournament contention after a single match loss. Competitors who lose a match in the winner's bracket are placed into the loser's bracket, where they are given a second chance in the tournament in what is essentially a single-elimination procedure where they meet other competitors who have been knocked out of the winner's bracket. The distinction between the winner's and loser's bracket ends at the grand final, where the last competitor left in the winner's bracket meets the last competitor left in the losers bracket, determining the ultimate winner of the tournament.

There are a number of advantages to double-elimination tournament procedure. First, the forgiving nature of the tournament design hedges against the potential unfairness present in standard single-elimination design, especially if bracket seeds are inaccurately determined or are determined at random. Second, the existence of the loser's bracket builds the third place match directly into the design of the tournament, where it is an extra, seemingly 'meaningless' match in regular single-elimination procedure. Third, the problem isolated above of potentially reduced return on investment is much mitigated as players have a second chance in the tournament after their initial match loss in the winner's bracket.

However, double-elimination procedure also has a number of problems inherent in its design. The greatest problem confronting double-elimination procedure is the sheer number of games required to conduct it. This problem becomes larger as the number of tournament entrants increases, severely reducing the scalability of any double-elimination tournament. This large number of games required also works against fairness as well, as the competitor coming out of the lower bracket will almost certainly have played a substantially larger number of matches against their winner bracket counterpart. This difference in number of games played makes the conclusion of a double-elimination tournament, especially ones conducted 'offline,' tests of endurance and strength, not necessarily in-game skill.

This endurance problem is supercharged when fairness is articulated as justifying artificial intervention by tournament organizers. The most visible example of this is the 'extended series' rule employed by Major League Gaming. The 'extended series' rule establishes that if two competitors are matched up against each other for a second time within a given tournament, the match is extended into a larger best-of-X series with the match score from the previous game being taken into account. As such, if two competitors met previously in a tournament, with the score being 3 to 2, upon their second meeting, the results from this best-of-5 translate into the new match beginning at 3 to 2 in a best-of-11. The merits of 'extended series' have been debated to death, but it is clear that its existence remains controversial in our community, and its existence is made possible because of double-elimination procedure.

It is important, I feel, to make a distinction between 'extended series' and the normal conduction of double-elimination here. In the grand finals of a double-elimination tournament, the fact that the competitor coming out of the loser's bracket has two win two best-of-X matches in order to win is often confused by many in our community as being part of the 'extended series' rule. This is incorrect. The fact is the winner of the loser's bracket, having lost a match for the first time in the grand finals, is thus knocked into the same loser's bracket within which the competitor coming from it was given a second chance in the tournament. It would be fundamentally unfair to the winner's bracket competitor to not be given that same second chance that was afforded to the loser's bracket competitor in the first place. To deny the winner's bracket competitor this second chance is to impeach the integrity and suitability of double-elimination procedure in the first place. This is where this aside becomes more pertinent to the subject of this writing. I do agree that this presents a significant challenge to the use of double-elimination on the part of tournament organizers. It is fashionable in tournament design to increase the numbers of games required to win an individual match at certain stages during conduction of an elimination tournament. Grand finals of a tournament are oftentimes long series under best-of-5 or greater conditions. This can make the grand finals of a tournament inordinately long and potentially significantly disadvantageous for the competitor coming out of the loser's bracket. Take, for example, Team Liquid's performance at the IPL Team Arena Challenge 3 Main Event, where that team had to win two best-of-9s, an endurance feat conceded even by team management as an improbable event.


If timecoding does not work, skip to 3m 40s in the video


Finally, there is the elephant in the room regarding the appeal of broadcasting loser's bracket games in the first place. The large number of loser's bracket games inherent in the double-elimination system ensure that a good deal of loser's bracket games will be shown on any tournament broadcast. It seems to be hard, however, to make loser's bracket games compelling enough for the viewership unless the players in the loser's bracket are popular, or the loser's bracket is finally concluding and the grand final approaches. As such, double-elimination procedure places stress on the broadcasters to make the long process of concluding a double-elimination tournament compelling for the viewership through the construction of story lines.

Groups into elimination

The establishment of a group stage in tournament design, on its face, seeks to ameliorate the inherent problem of determining fair and accurate seeding for competitors in an elimination tournament.

In typical group stage procedure, a given competitor pool is divided up into one or more groups of competitors. Competitors in these groups play each other in round-robin procedure, where each competitor in a group plays all of the other competitors in a group once. At the conclusion of the round-robin, competitors within groups are ranked, and from these rankings players may be seeded into or eliminated from an elimination bracket to follow.

Group stage into elimination is rapidly becoming the procedure of choice for tournament organizers in our community. Yet, its current articulation is imperfect for a number of reasons. First, the procedure for which the division of competitors into groups is conducted is oftentimes unknown to the public and, not to mention, the competitors themselves. This division can be done in three ways:
  1. Group selection — in group selection, the competitors themselves decide the group composition, usually with certain restrictions or through a draw of some kind. There are two chief advantages to this procedure: first, the process is transparent to the players, and second, group selection offers the tournament organizer the opportunity to develop compelling pre-show content for their event
  2. Tournament choice — in tournament choice, the process is rendered completely opaque, and the composition of groups is determined, perhaps arbitrarily, by the tournament organizers. The most debilitating disadvantage for this procedure is the existence of a potential for corruption and matchfixing, as the opaque nature of this procedure allows decisions to be made which can influence tournament results in a way in which a limited number of people have knowledge that is unavailable to most prior to the start of an event.
  3. Random assignment — group compositions, when using this procedure, are determined randomly. This should be weighed against group selection as the only two legitimate ways of determining group composition within the options outlined here.


Ironically, it is the existence of multiple groups themselves in current tournament fashion that undermines current group stage into elimination tournament procedure. Let me explain.

Group subdivisions are an imperfect sampling of what is already a limited competitor pool. The existence of a 'group of death,' in which the best competitors in a tournament are seemingly placed within a single group and will thus knock each other out is a persistent problem. Where a competitor ends up being placed into groups also matters substantially, because the racial composition of a group in StarCraft II competition drastically changes play style and competitive level. For example, if a competitor whose weakest matchup is the mirror matchup, and is placed into a group completely consisting of said competitor's mirror races, the chances for this competitor to make it out of groups are predictably slim indeed. Contrast this example with a different situation, where a competitor is placed into a group consisting of other competitors whose played race is advantageous to said competitor; the chances of said competitor making it out of groups is predictably high indeed. As a final point, the incongruity of play and strength inherent in multiple groups make it hard to accurately determine of results within one group accurately represent the strength of the competitors within specific group compositions.

The best way to eliminate this problem with the group stage is to only have a group of one, with the entire competitor pool in a single group. The most limiting factor preventing the implementation of this is scalability: as the number of tournament entrants increases, the number of games required to conduct a round-robin group procedure increases as well. At a certain point, the number of games required would make the group stage massively inefficient and undesirable from the standpoint of a tournament organizer.

Another way to mitigate this issue is to have a very large number of entrants into a tournament, such that groups can be made up of a suitably large number of competitors whose composition is much more balanced than what traditional groups of four can offer to a tournament. Time constraints and number of games required to be played are dealt with articulating and presenting this group play as an actual 'season' as part of a league. What the North American Star League does, in this regard, is the most successful implementation of such a procedure in the current mold of tournaments and events in our community. This procedure is what makes the North American Star League an actual league, and an overwhelming majority of their actual content is the broadcast of each and every single game in this group play, culminating in their offline finals at the very end.

There is also a problem which, I feel, is similar to the loser's bracket problem with double-elimination tournaments. Group stages can often times feel extraneous and unimportant relative to the elimination bracket stage of a tournament. Organizations that draw out group stages into an actual league, such as the North American Star League, largely eliminate this problem, in my view, by making the group stage a compelling reason as to why you are tuning into their broadcast into the first place. I've also heard of some tournaments held with competitive gaming titles that are not StarCraft II skipping the broadcast of the group stage entirely, showing only the elimination bracket in their broadcasts. This might be an option that is worth exploring perhaps in our community as well. Ultimately, I feel, this problem, as well as the one mentioned previously about double-elimination, can largely be handled by the skill of the people a tournament organizer has working for them in making compelling story lines and content for the viewership to consume.

Bracketception

'Bracketception' is a word I've just made up. It refers, however, to tournament design practices that go from elimination bracket into elimination bracket into elimination bracket. Take, for example, the 2012 MLG Pro Circuit Summer Championship in Raleigh held last month. In this tournament, an extremely large double-elimination open bracket led into a 'group play' that was really just another double-elimination bracket of invites plus 'seeds' from the open bracket play and then, after that, concluded by leading into yet another double-elimination championship bracket to decide the winner at the very end.

[image loading]
THIS. IS. BRACKETCEPTION!


It is hard to see the advantage this tournament structure has over the more traditional tournament structures available to the tournament organizer, unless they consider making Liquipedia's job in covering their tournament brackets that much harder an advantage. At any rate, fairness is not something necessarily demonstrated or introduced into a system through added complexity.

Swiss tournament

The Swiss tournament is not a common sight in our community, but I will mention it here because it influences the design of my chosen alternative to the tournament structures listed so far in this writing.

In a Swiss tournament, competitors are paired off to face against each other over several rounds of competition. After every round, winners are paired against other winners of the round previous, and the same goes for the losers of each round as well. No two competitors are allowed to meet more than once in a given tournament. At the end of the rounds, the top ranked competitor based on wins and perhaps other tiebreakers is declared the winner, with other placements in the tournament going to the respective competitors and their ranks determined from in-round play.

The main advantage of this procedure is that a clear winner is established by the tournament, as well as a clear ranking of the competitor pool and thus a clear loser too. The number of matches required to establish this ranking is generally equal to or only slightly more than a traditional elimination tournament.

The main disadvantage to this procedure is the sheer lack of hype and excitement inherent in it. Elimination tournaments, by their very nature, clearly show the competitor pool being whittled down to a chosen few; the elimination part of elimination tournaments gives these tournaments an added excitement outside of the games being played and the competitors playing them. Swiss tournaments, on the other hand, have no clear winner until the very end, generally. It is also hard to construct compelling story lines for a competitor's run in a Swiss tournament.

An alternative: introducing Tabulation procedure


Overview

For the remainder of this writing I will describe a tournament procedure I have had much experience with over the last couple of years and of which I feel does a very good job harnessing the advantages of the above systems (except 'bracketception,' of course) while mitigating the attendant negatives of the use of said systems independently.

'Tabulation' is a word borrowed from the world of the academic debate activity in the United States. In essence, the tournament design I describe here is a modified Swiss tournament where rounds are cut off after a certain point, determining the composition of and seeds within an elimination bracket. 'Tabulation' is the process conducted by 'tab' rooms at debate tournaments, where the results of each round are tabulated in order to determine pairings for the next round in the preliminaries.

Prelims

The goal of the preliminary rounds (prelims) is to determine who gets to make it into the elimination bracket after their conclusion. Not all competitors who enter into the tournament will make it to the elimination stage (elims); depending on how many rounds a tournament organizer wants to conduct, only the top 32 to 16 competitors make it (or 'break' out) into the elimination brackets.

The prelims are essentially a group stage, with all of the competitors placed into a single group. The two rounds of pairings are randomly assigned (and can be released to the competitors and the public before the start of the tournament), with following rounds conducted as so:
  • Competitors play the same or similarly ranked competitors only — this essentially means that certain bracket classes will be established through group play. Thus, a competitor with a record of 2-0 is part of the 2-0 bracket class and will end up being paired against another competitor of the same rank. If there is a non-even number of competitors in a certain bracket class, the top ranked competitor from the bracket class immediately below the one in question will be 'pulled up' to the higher bracket class in order to fill the space.
  • High-high power-matching procedure — what this means is that top rank in a certain bracket class will meet second rank in a bracket class, and so forth. The point of the preliminary stage is to prove whether or not competitors deserve their seed at the end.
  • Tiebreakers — in the following order: (1) head-to-head matches won, (2) head-to-head games won, (3) total matches won, (4) total games won


These rules ensure that the preliminary stage is made up of matches that accurately determine the skill of a given competitor relative to their rivals at a given tournament.

Elims

The elimination bracket procedure for this system is a fairly-straightforward single-elimination bracket seeded based on the tabulation rankings established in preliminary play. Seeds will be power-protected: thus 1st seed hits 64th, 2nd hits 63rd, etc. This gives an incentive to players in the preliminary stage to ensure they get the highest seed possible.

Why single-elimination versus double-elimination? I'm of the opinion that once solid seeds have been established by a tournament via preliminary play, there exists no need to add the complexity and second chances to competitors given in double-elimination procedure. Simply put, if you manage to be top seed in this tournament, but you manage to lose to the 64th seed in the first round of elims, you deserved the loss because based on preliminary play, the 64th seed's victory against you in elims was a huge upset.

To avoid the issues of having to determine rankings throughout the elimination bracket, awards and prizes should be given out (past first and second place) to competitors who are semifinalists, quarterfinalists, and so forth equally based on their final respective elimination stage reached. If this is not an option, consolation matches should be played outside of the broadcast, in general.

Advantages and disadvantages of Tabulation

The principal advantage of this procedure, in my opinion, is the ability to demonstrate, through tournament play, a fair and accurate ranking of the skill of all tournament entrants at a given time. This advantage does not just benefit the tournament organizer in developing fair seeds into an elimination bracket, because it would fundamentally alter the way we can determine overall player skill throughout a long period of time. If multiple major and premier tournaments adopted this procedure, the ability to analyze aggregate and relative player skill will become much more reliable.

It also simplifies tournament structure, and above all gets rid of the perceived need to have things such as double-elimination second chances and the 'extended series' rule based on the inadequacies of a given tournament structure.

There are also a number of disadvantages to this procedure, however. Chief among these is the actual tabulation of the preliminary matches. A computer program or spreadsheet would probably be the most efficient and accurate means by which to calculate the tabulations. Hand tabulation of tournament results will end up bogging down the system. Along the same vein, all matches in a certain round must conclude until tabulation of results and the creation of pairings for the next round can be released to the competitors and the public. Stalemated games, connection drops, and their like in one individual match might just end up influencing the entire tournament, bringing it to a potential standstill.

The system of tabulation might also be too complicated for easy explanation to the viewership of a tournament. However, I feel that this disadvantage is at least already present in current groups into elimination tournaments. With apt explanation on the part of the public faces of the tournament, I feel like this should not actually be much of a problem.

In terms of entertainment, I know for a fact that the limitation of knowledge as to who is hitting whom in the next preliminary stage is a moment of excitement (and sometimes dread) for many in the community from which I am transplanting this tournament procedure. The pairings themselves, and their eventual release, can become part of the tournament story line, bringing tension to the event and making it more compelling for the viewership. The ability to determine relative skill of competitors at any given time during the preliminary proceedings also enables tournament organizers to strategically deploy their broadcasters onto games that will be certain to be good.

This limited information also acts as a significant hedge against players attempting to game the system and not play their best based on knowledge of who they are going to hit in the next rounds (and especially in the elimination rounds). This situation has many a time mired a tournament in controversy, and is best avoided whenever possible through the structure of the tournament itself.

Tabulation also provides a guaranteed number of rounds for each entrant: they will at least be playing all rounds of the prelims, meaning there is no symptom of 'one and done' or 'two and done' that is possible in the elimination tournament structures. This guaranteed number of rounds (translated into a typical tournament, this would be about two days of still being in actual contention) assures a certain level of return on investment for competitors and their teams, making it more palatable for their sponsors.

Finally, Tabulation procedure gives tournament organizers another significant advantage in the broadcast of preliminary group stage rounds compared to traditional groups to elimination tournament structures. When the last few rounds come along, broadcasters can focus on the middle of the pack, those on the cusp of being able to break out into elimination bracket contention, rather than focusing only on those who will for sure make it into the elimination rounds.

Conclusion


Whew, this has been quite a long writing, and the first of its kind from me here on Team Liquid at least. Let me know what you think about my analysis and Tabulation procedure itself in the comments below. I'd appreciate it if you read the entire post before replying, and please try not to get hung up on debating the merits of extended series.



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****
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28085 Posts
September 18 2012 01:03 GMT
#2
wow. This is great
Administrator
Aphasie
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway474 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 01:09:35
September 18 2012 01:08 GMT
#3
First off, let me say it was a good write up. I think you covered the basic concepts well, but I found it to be lacking in weighing format and participants against a time scale. Some tournaments mutually excludes certain formats.

For instance there can be little doubt that the korean format (code S/OSL) is by far superior in;
1. fairness, the screening process to maintain talent works throughout the system but isnt a safe card (for instance the old Code S was a bit too "safe"
2. reliability, scheduled matches that you can prepare for, hence prepare your strategies and bring your A-game
3. entertainment (understood in its most definitive term - the best starcraft - and not favorite vs. underdog, korean vs. foreigner, etc.)

However their format solely works with A) fewer than 64 player and B) their lenght extends over a month or more. This allows players to prepare, fans to tune in to primetime on most dates and each player (at least from ro16) has a "storyline". This makes for the best games possible, and even better it does so in the context of a story. This format creates anticipation, which is amazing for any type of tournament.

This format would obviously not work for the likes of MLG, DH, Assembly, etc. They orient themselves against "broader" tournaments and recruitment, which im positive about. But with no anticipation, encouragement of "robot-play" rather than mindful play and abundance of mediocre matches makes it inferior IMO.

As far as fairness goes you could argue that DH is a fair tournament, but "running the gauntlet" and making the tournament an endurance contest, at least partially, goes against the notion of a strategy game.

My 2 cents
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9152 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 01:23:18
September 18 2012 01:18 GMT
#4
On September 18 2012 10:08 Aphasie wrote:
First off, let me say it was a good write up. I think you covered the basic concepts well, but I found it to be lacking in weighing format and participants against a time scale. Some tournaments mutually excludes certain formats.

For instance there can be little doubt that the korean format (code S/OSL) is by far superior in;
1. fairness, the screening process to maintain talent works throughout the system but isnt a safe card (for instance the old Code S was a bit too "safe"
2. reliability, scheduled matches that you can prepare for, hence prepare your strategies and bring your A-game
3. entertainment (understood in its most definitive term - the best starcraft - and not favorite vs. underdog, korean vs. foreigner, etc.)

However their format solely works with A) fewer than 64 player and B) their lenght extends over a month or more. This allows players to prepare, fans to tune in to primetime on most dates and each player (at least from ro16) has a "storyline". This makes for the best games possible, and even better it does so in the context of a story. This format creates anticipation, which is amazing for any type of tournament.

This format would obviously not work for the likes of MLG, DH, Assembly, etc. They orient themselves against "broader" tournaments and recruitment, which im positive about. But with no anticipation, encouragement of "robot-play" rather than mindful play and abundance of mediocre matches makes it inferior IMO.

As far as fairness goes you could argue that DH is a fair tournament, but "running the gauntlet" and making the tournament an endurance contest, at least partially, goes against the notion of a strategy game.

My 2 cents


I don't advocate the OSL / GSL tournament structure at the end. However, I'll agree that the structure I actually do explain is probably best suited for one-off tournaments. If a tournament series is thinking of making an actual league, I isolate NASL as the best example for actually doing this in a way that works pretty well.

Returning once again to my system, in debate points are given to placings are certain tournaments, granting access to a large national tournament that will determine the overall greatest within a given 'circuit' of events within a year; this could be the basis for events to have a large number of events that compare against the dual tournament structures of OSL and GSL. The system is also uniquely developed such that it can take place over the course of a weekend if needed.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
Kiarip
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1835 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 01:29:11
September 18 2012 01:24 GMT
#5
I like the idea, but it would only work in invitational-only tournaments. I think in some ways NASL is very similar to this because they have stages with large groups.

I really don't like the standard 4 man-groups in most tournaments, because groups of death destroy the landscape of the tournament results without giving enough credit to the players that may have very well played at top-4 caliber.

Tabulation is a very nice way to manage large groups. It can also be successfully applied on multiple groups in my opinion.

The tournament that first enters my head that would be perfect for a tabulation-based pre-lims is DreamHack (the recent summer one) because it's an invitational with a very large pool of players.

They had 32 groups of 4 players each... Instead they could have had 4 groups of 32 players each with tabulation and then advanced the top 8 in each group into a standard 4-player round-robin stage (with convincing seeding coming from a 32 player group stage,) and from there had their top 16.

It would have been easier than keeping track of a group stage with 32 different groups, and it would have avoided the fact that 3 consecutive stages are bound to create several groups of death at different stages in the tournament.
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9152 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 01:31:00
September 18 2012 01:28 GMT
#6
On September 18 2012 10:24 Kiarip wrote:
I like the idea, but it would only work in invitational-only tournaments. I think in some ways NASL is very similar to this because they have stages with large groups.


I don't think so. The structure of tabulation would make it such that the group stage can also be the 'open bracket' of the event. Regardless of how they got there, each and every player in the pool is going to have to prove they belong.

At a certain point (say like more than 256) perhaps more rounds are going to need to be added to the prelims or more people are going to have to be able to break out into elims.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
Kiarip
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1835 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 01:33:07
September 18 2012 01:31 GMT
#7
On September 18 2012 10:28 itsjustatank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2012 10:24 Kiarip wrote:
I like the idea, but it would only work in invitational-only tournaments. I think in some ways NASL is very similar to this because they have stages with large groups.


I don't think so. The structure of tabulation would make it such that the group stage can also be the 'open bracket' of the event. Regardless of how they got there, each and every player in the pool is going to have to prove they belong.


but then too many games would have to be played in a very "swiss"ish style (no story-line, hard to understand the actual value of each lost/won match because you're not sure who each player has yet to play) to arrive at a small enough pool of players for the final bracket

edit: on the other hand, i agree it's not a bad way to deal with the open bracket, as long as there are enough computers available to play all the matches, and another round is introduced for further elimination.
iTzSnypah
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1738 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 02:52:19
September 18 2012 02:43 GMT
#8
Good, except its extremely strung out. I had to drag myself through it.

Also you didn't talk about BoX and how it affects fairness, reliability and efficiency.

Edit: I would like dynamic BoX series. Lets say in a Bo7 if player A starts 2-0 then the series would turn into a Bo5 with score's carried over. It would increase efficiency while negligibly affecting reliability and fairness. However only Bo7's and larger could use this.
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itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9152 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 03:00:19
September 18 2012 02:50 GMT
#9
On September 18 2012 11:43 iTzSnypah wrote:
Good, except its extremely strung out. I had to drag myself through it.

Also you didn't talk about BoX and how it affects fairness, reliability and efficiency.


BoX isnt the issue though, and it's generally decided that Bo1 in elim is bad, Bo3 is somewhat standard, Bo5 is better, Bo7-9 is pushing it and Bo11+ is ridiculous. Larger tournament design choices than BoX have a bigger effect on play.

In the tournament structure I introduce, I generally think prelims should be Bo3. Elims should probably be Bo5 through to finals, depending on time constraints.

On September 18 2012 11:43 iTzSnypah wrote:
Edit: I would like dynamic BoX series. Lets say in a Bo7 if player A starts 2-0 then the series would turn into a Bo5 with score's carried over. It would increase efficiency while negligibly affecting reliability and fairness. However only Bo7's and larger could use this.


the point is to avoid extended series because of good tournament design in the first place
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
dangthatsright
Profile Joined July 2011
1158 Posts
September 18 2012 03:40 GMT
#10
I suspect the biggest issue is going to be time, since a Bo3 series could last anywhere from half an hour to three times that, or possibly worse. If the tournament was sufficiently large, I could see the prelim stage taking longer than an entire standard weekend tournament. It might be beneficial to run the prelims as an online stage of the tournament before gathering everyone into a LAN finals, as NASL and The International do. The algorithm makes a lot of sense though, and should be able to run faster than a global round robin would.

Just some thoughts.

I may try this (on a smaller scale) with my school's starcraft club, just to see how it runs.
strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
September 18 2012 03:54 GMT
#11
TRPC tournaments are great. I have always asked myself why SC tournaments don't have prelims like debate tournaments did.
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itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9152 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 04:25:08
September 18 2012 04:24 GMT
#12
On September 18 2012 12:40 dangthatsright wrote:
I suspect the biggest issue is going to be time, since a Bo3 series could last anywhere from half an hour to three times that, or possibly worse. If the tournament was sufficiently large, I could see the prelim stage taking longer than an entire standard weekend tournament. It might be beneficial to run the prelims as an online stage of the tournament before gathering everyone into a LAN finals, as NASL and The International do. The algorithm makes a lot of sense though, and should be able to run faster than a global round robin would.

Just some thoughts.

I may try this (on a smaller scale) with my school's starcraft club, just to see how it runs.


Yeah that is one potential problem with the system. I will say that the system itself is transplanted from an activity where the normal length of a round is about 2 hours or so, and rarely do Bo3s last that long at all. It can happen though.

Let me know how it works out for you, I'd be interested to see how it works in real action.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
LlamaNamedOsama
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1900 Posts
September 18 2012 04:30 GMT
#13
Echoing dangthatsright's comment, the time problem is unfortunately a crippling one in the SC2 context. This format works for debate because all debates technically should occur within the same length of time given standardized speech and prep times. Not so for SC2. Games can range from 3 minutes of a 6pool to 1 hour and 15 minutes of a late-late-late-game TvT. A tournament proceeding at the pace of its slowest games (likely TvTs) would be impossibly lengthy, or at the least, have huge downtime for a multitude of players who all await the results of one game.

Casting would also be a problem, having too many games to follow. While there is a similar problem with, say, open brackets in MLG, this format would exacerbate the issue come the latter half of prelims where power-matching ensures a multitude of big-name matchups.

Also, I'm not sure how ties would be resolved. A set number of prelims does not guarantee the exact number of elim rounds that you want - while debate has speaker points, tiebreaks would be harder to resolve in SC2. Beyond winrates of opponents (which can also tie), I'm not too sure what else would be used as a tiebreaker.
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itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9152 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 05:12:57
September 18 2012 05:08 GMT
#14
On September 18 2012 13:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Echoing dangthatsright's comment, the time problem is unfortunately a crippling one in the SC2 context. This format works for debate because all debates technically should occur within the same length of time given standardized speech and prep times. Not so for SC2. Games can range from 3 minutes of a 6pool to 1 hour and 15 minutes of a late-late-late-game TvT. A tournament proceeding at the pace of its slowest games (likely TvTs) would be impossibly lengthy, or at the least, have huge downtime for a multitude of players who all await the results of one game.


I do agree that time is an issue in holding back rounds. It is, however, pretty rare that StarCraft II games last that long; the risk, of course is always there. The longest debate rounds (and delays) are scheduled to take place within 2 hours or so.

Perhaps the solution is to get away from the Bo3 format and adopt the debate round robin approach of having a panel of two judges in the back of the room. As such, a round would consist of two games, and these games operate as the 'ballots' for tabulation purposes. 2-0 could be a win, 1-1 could be a tie, and 0-2 could be rated as a loss for a secondary tiebreak in this new two round system.

Because of the format change, more rounds can be loaded into the preliminaries, from say six to like nine. Even with your stated length of 1hr 15mins, two games like that would be 2hrs and 30 minutes, introducing half an hour of delay.

Also, I'm not sure how ties would be resolved. A set number of prelims does not guarantee the exact number of elim rounds that you want - while debate has speaker points, tiebreaks would be harder to resolve in SC2. Beyond winrates of opponents (which can also tie), I'm not too sure what else would be used as a tiebreaker.


What I have in what I wrote is directly taken from MLG's tiebreaking procedures. They have been sufficient for that organization thus far, but if anyone has additional viable tiebreaking procedures for StarCraft II other than the ones listed, lemme know.

Casting would also be a problem, having too many games to follow. While there is a similar problem with, say, open brackets in MLG, this format would exacerbate the issue come the latter half of prelims where power-matching ensures a multitude of big-name matchups.

This isn't an issue with the system, only an issue with the organization and its lack of streams and hiring casters. You cannot possibly fault a tournament system for delivering too many good matches can you? And also in latter half of prelims, broadcast should focus on the break rounds at any rate, which are limited in number and much easier to choose from.

I mean I guess mitigating tactics can include: (1) having off-site casting like DreamHack; (2) having more on-site casting and streams (a la MLG).
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
September 18 2012 06:03 GMT
#15
Swiss is very common for chess tournaments. I wonder how it'd work for Starcraft.
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iTzSnypah
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1738 Posts
September 18 2012 06:42 GMT
#16
On September 18 2012 11:50 itsjustatank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2012 11:43 iTzSnypah wrote:
Edit: I would like dynamic BoX series. Lets say in a Bo7 if player A starts 2-0 then the series would turn into a Bo5 with score's carried over. It would increase efficiency while negligibly affecting reliability and fairness. However only Bo7's and larger could use this.


the point is to avoid extended series because of good tournament design in the first place


I meant that if a player in a bo7 goes 2-0 the bo7 turns into a bo5 (aka the person that went 2-0 only has to win 1 more game instead of two).
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Epoxide
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Magic Woods9326 Posts
September 18 2012 06:44 GMT
#17
Woah this is huge, going to have to read this when I get home.
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]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
September 18 2012 06:50 GMT
#18
hmm, I'd like to point out that a double-elim tournament doesn't "increase the number of games exponentially"; it just doubles them.

In single elim, you need to play enough matches for all but 1 player to lose once = players - 1. In double elim, you need to play enough matches for all but 1 player to lose twice = 2*players - 1 if the winner loses once; if not, then 2*players-2.

(The reason why the double-elim bracket you posted looks so huge is because there are 64 players )

I do agree that a Swiss/modified Swiss (like your tabulation-style) tournament might be better, though it does remove the ability to guess who you're going to play next. Admittedly, in dropping to losers' brackets, this might not be clear anyway...
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itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9152 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 07:06:16
September 18 2012 07:02 GMT
#19
On September 18 2012 15:42 iTzSnypah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2012 11:50 itsjustatank wrote:
On September 18 2012 11:43 iTzSnypah wrote:
Edit: I would like dynamic BoX series. Lets say in a Bo7 if player A starts 2-0 then the series would turn into a Bo5 with score's carried over. It would increase efficiency while negligibly affecting reliability and fairness. However only Bo7's and larger could use this.


the point is to avoid extended series because of good tournament design in the first place


I meant that if a player in a bo7 goes 2-0 the bo7 turns into a bo5 (aka the person that went 2-0 only has to win 1 more game instead of two).


I don't understand why this is at all desirable. You are artificially changing the format of the tournament in favor of a certain player simply because someone has gone 2-0 in what was slated to be a Bo7.

On September 18 2012 15:50 ]343[ wrote:
hmm, I'd like to point out that a double-elim tournament doesn't "increase the number of games exponentially"; it just doubles them.

In single elim, you need to play enough matches for all but 1 player to lose once = players - 1. In double elim, you need to play enough matches for all but 1 player to lose twice = 2*players - 1 if the winner loses once; if not, then 2*players-2.


Woops, yeah you are right, I'll make the appropriate edit.

(The reason why the double-elim bracket you posted looks so huge is because there are 64 players )


The only double-elim tournament I remember linking here isn't just huge because there are 64 players. It's huge because there's an elim bracket into an elim bracket into an elim bracket: bracketception.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
huameng
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States1133 Posts
September 18 2012 07:14 GMT
#20
Why is this better than a straight double elimination bracket? Consider a tournament with the cutoff and number of swiss rounds such that anyone with 0 or 1 loss makes the cut and anyone with 2 or more losses is eliminated. (7 rounds of swiss with 256 people, cutting to 16, should accomplish this.) Now a double elimination bracket accomplishes the same thing, except if MLG uses your format, they have to host hundreds of useless games at the same time the real tournament is happening. Instead, MLG would be better off just eliminating everyone else, since they have no interest in discerning the 134th best player in the room from the 135th. You touch on this but just shrug it off; I really think you should take it more seriously. I obviously don't have any authority over this, but if I had to guess I would say your suggestion is an impossibility based on scheduling and logistics along. And removing the unnecessary games, your prelim is at this point no different from a predetermined bracket, besides the perfect knowledge about future rounds. I also disagree with your opinion on this, since it seems to me a lot of hype is generated by "omg Naniwa is gonna play Flash in round 2!!!", but that's not so important.

Even if you cut players after they lose twice due to logistics, I don't see why you would want to switch to a single elimination bracket instead of just continuing with a double elimination bracket! I don't see why that's worth invalidating the fact that, say, the 2nd place person with 7-0 performed a lot better than the 3rd place person with 6-1, yet they share almost equally valuable seeding. Meanwhile, 16th place is also 6-1, and how reliable are the tiebreakers going to be? You bring up a set of tiebreakers that are basically totally valueless, since most people in the 6-1 bracket won't have played each other, and the difference in games won can be at most 1. (Assuming bo3s) So it's quite possible the 16th seed is a better player than the 3rd seed, and had a better tournament even, but lost out because they went 0-2 vs Stephano at 6-0 instead of 1-2 vs some newbie in the 1-0 bracket. Other swiss tournaments have better tiebreak systems which solve the tiebreaker problem, at least, so I'd borrow from there. The average of your opponents' match win percentages is the best one that I know. Roughly, this is the sum of your points in each round, as someone who went WWWWWWL should've had a harder run than someone who went LWWWWWW, and should be rewarded for it.

You say that because the 1st seed gets to play the lowest seed, that means the 1st seed deserves to be eliminated if they lose to the 64th seed, let's say. Yet in your tournament, it's perfectly reasonable that two players could play the exact same players, and have the exact same records against them, yet one player (say the 1st seed) could be eliminated while the other player is still in the tournament. To quickly visualize this, imagine Idra is 7-0 and Huk is 6-1, losing only to Stephano early on in the tournament, and Stephano is 6-1 as well. It's perfectly reasonable that Idra loses to Stephano in the first round of single elimination and is out of the tournament, while Huk beats one of Idra's old opponents and advances, even though both of their results are identical up to that point. I don't see how you can classify a tournament like this as fair, when Huk is advancing over Idra simply because he was fortunate enough to run into Stephano before the single elimination.

Your tournament also suffers from some problems that group stage + open bracket solves that I think you didn't mention. The biggest one is that the open bracket can be played in the background while the group stage plays. That way, people will be able to watch the stars duke it out while the unknown v unknown matches play themselves out. In your tournament, the early broadcast would end up being a bunch of slight variations on that game where Sase built a 10 nexus wall against a little kid. The formula tournaments seem to be trying to hit to me is having stars playing meaningful games in the early stages and having an exciting final day, hopefully with many of the stars still around. Your tournament structure doesn't seem to produce as many meaningful games between stars, since lots of their games will be either noob bashing or just for seeding. Then if you cut to a large single-elimination bracket, it's definitely possible all of the stars will fall out, and you'll be left with an underwhelming final few matches. Tournaments really don't want this to happen, and the MLG approach to group stages is a great way to prevent it.

I don't want this post to ramble on, so I'll stop here for now. I'd just like to say that I find this topic really interesting and I think MLG is making great strides toward finding the best tournament structures, even if they are a little more complicated than they might need to be.
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