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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I was going to make this post yesterday - what a mistake that would be seeing that a new patch came out! And wow, this patch changes a lot. Nearly everything I was going to complain about has been patched or fixed. Which, really, is great. A lot of your will have read my blog The Good, The Bad and The Ugly which gave you my first impressions of the units in HotS. Well, here are my new thoughts starting with the changes.
Movin' on up...
Energize - upgraded to Good
The ability I once called 'useless' has actually been my most used spell out of the mothership core. Why? Because many times you will want to sit back and macro and you know there are no immediate threats coming from your opponent. So you're chronoboosting away (on upgrades or probes if it's after a FFE) and whoops! No more chronoboost. Well, now you can just energise your nexus and keep chronoboosting. Surprisingly, it makes a big difference in getting out +1/+1 vs Terran as well as other upgrades. With the resurgence of bio play post-warhound; its sickeningly good.
Yes, it still has its cute uses with oracle and templar - but it really shines when you really want to power.
The Viper - upgraded to Good
Great synergy with Hydras (makes a ling/hydra/viper style viable) and blinding cloud does work pretty well vs Terran. I'm a little confused as to why it has consume, and why consume can only kill buildings, but whatever. While it may need some balance tweaking (hey, what doesn't!), it's a unit which:
- makes new styles viable
- synergises well with existing armies
- is fun
- actually introduces more micro for the protoss player by forcing them to control colossi better vs vipers (or lose them)
It's a winner.
The Widow Mine - upgraded to Neutral
It's still only barely passable as neutral, but Naruto claims that the mine has some utility in TvZ. I'm inclined to agree. It really helps with zergling runbys (35 damage splash = good against zerglings) and other counter attacks. Also kinda useful against mass mutalisks harass when going mech, as thors suck at being mobile. Basically, they work well with vs a mobile force which loves attacking.
This might have ended in something really cool, until they detonated on Stalkers
The unit still needs a lot of tweaking to be a good unit. As qxc (I think) said on CPC, the Widow Mine is a unit you need to position in a place that you know your enemy is going to be, otherwise its dead supply. Thus counter attacks or used aggressively to fortify a contain (or something like that) are really the only uses of the unit at the moment. But with tweaks, it might just see some further use. Then again, I could be completely wrong and that this unit fills its niche role nicely. For that reason, I'm happy to wait another week or so to see how the unit is developing before making changes.
Automine Workers - upgraded to Neutral
Basically, at this point I don't care if its in the final game or not. It simply doesn't have a big enough impact to be of any significance.
The Tempest - upgraded to Bad
With the Carrier back in the Protoss air fleet, I can definitely see a place for the tempest as a siege weapon. Not quite a Void Ray but not as strong as a Carrier - it's a unit the Stargate could do with actually. In fact, I'm starting to be sold on the concept of the unit now that it isn't the ultimate capital ship of protoss. There are a couple barriers for the unit to see use at the moment:
- it's 300/300 cost with 6 supply (50 more gas than carriers)
- it's fleet beacon requirement
Actually, the fleet beacon requirement doesn't change much - but it sure is annoying. The 300/300 cost means that you can produce one at a time when you have 4 gas going, assuming you're chronoboosting your tempest. This incredible gas requirement basically makes the fleet beacon requirement obsolete because you actually cannot afford to make tempests early on without dying to well, everything.
While super expensive, I think this unit has potential
But I think this unit could have some really sick possibilities, its just about getting the stats right to match the concept (at the moment, they don't). Here's what I would do:
- drop the fleet beacon requirement, give tempest 9 range with a +6 range upgrade at fleet beacon
Why? A 9 range tempest has utility in harassment and helps balance a more accessible tempest and means that you don't have to commit a lot (i.e. a fleet beacon) to begin using the unit. With the same range as a Viking, it can create some pretty interesting PvT uses. +6 Range is to still give the tempest the range it needs for Brood/Infestor.
- reduce the cost of the tempest to 200/200, rebalancing stats if necessary (keeping range)
If you drop the fleet beacon, then at 300 gas it's still inaccessible. 200 is more accessible and, again, makes them less of an investment. Pretty self explanatory.
DOWN DOWN DOWN
Ultralisk Charge - downgraded to Bad
There are certain aspects about this I don't like. For one, it's kinda awkward to use as you have to manually activate it. Next is the cost of getting charge and the time it takes to research. I can't see any situations where you will want to get charge before armour, so by the time you actually research charge (if you do) you will already be on your way to transitioning to Broods (most likely, unless the metagame changes which atm it isn't).
Nothing ever changes...
This section will contain some relevant comments on units, but their position in the rankings haven't changed.
Swarm Host - Good
Still a good unit. Still an interesting unit. Still a fun unit. The range nerf is super nice, but still, it might need some more tweaking. There's a definite niche for the unit within the metagame at the moment, although finding the sweet spot between broken and useless could be a little tricky. Basically, Blizzard need to diligently balance the unit so that it remains an awesome unit come release.
Battle Hellions - Neutral
The unit still isn't very interesting, but I like that the armory requirement was added for the unit. With that said, there's still a lot of use for the unit in the game. That is making me want to upgrade the unit to good, because it is becoming quite versatile:
- Bio/Battle Hellion is surprisingly good TvP, because Battle Hellions (Bellions?) simply crush Zealots forcing the protoss to have Colossus/Storm/not zealots to deal bio. This achieves Blizzards goal of Zealots not being so powerful late game pvt.
- Battle hellions give mech a lot more durability, making it more viable. Still, sub-optimal to bio against Protoss I think (because Mech's real weakness is to air, and battle hellions don't help with that and aren't OP enough to make Mech super strong), but it could make Mech a better TvZ (compared to WoL).
These Battle Hellions are moment away from perfectly BBQ'd Zealot
Hydra Speed - Bad
I guess the upgrade is nice, but it still doesn't serve a purpose. Vipers make up for all the shortfalls of hydras once you reach Hive (imo) and by the time you get Hive you want to get rid of your hydras to make way for better units. So okay, there isn't any harm in leaving it in the game - but it isn't exactly useful.
Who needs speed when everything you want is pulled to you?
Oracle - Bad
Unit needs some more work - it is good that the cost of the unit was decreased, though. Still, in its current form it is an expensive observer which occasionally will cast entomb at awkward moments (in an effort to maximise the chance your opponent is distracted). How phase shield plays out in PvZ should be interesting, though, and looks like the only saving grace of the unit (thanks for pointing this out Luckyfool). Stalkers+Phase shield in the mid game could be a lot of fun. But its such a situational spell, which kinda annoys me.
This is what Phase Shield looks like. It's ability is as underwhelming as this graphic
Here are some ideas for the unit:
Suggestion 1: add twilight requirement, change phase shield to an ability which grants hardened shield to a unit for 5 seconds (think dmatrix, but not as good) keep other abilities unchanged. Balance cost etc. accordingly.
This would mean that the oracle requires stargate + twilight, and hence you shouldn't be able to get a robo as well. This makes the detection ability (revelation) super important because you're investing in a tech tree which doesn't offer detection (i.e. makes the spell more important, which is a good thing). Hardened shield would add more options for breaking mech lines, mass colossus and things like that - while the balance might be iffy, it certainly would make the unit more interesting and create some interesting scenarios.
Suggestion 2: add dark shrine requirement, give ability to convert oracle into a stationary 'cloaking field' for X seconds (whatever is balanced), give oracle maelstrom ability (freeze biological units for a few seconds), remove entomb and phase shield, probably up the gas cost quite a bit
This plays of the (I'm guessing) Dark Templar lore by adding the Dark Shrine requirement, but at the same time stops the Dark Shrine being a dead end tech tree. Makes it a late game caster and opens up some really interesting situations. Maelstrom seems like an interesting ability to add because it *could* be used to freeze workers (for economic harassment!) but also could be used against drops, mass biological air that is clumped (hi broods/corruptors) and opens up the possibility of weakening Vortex on the mothership (i.e. maelstrom broods rather than archon toilet, interesting proposition no?).
Point being, this unit could be so fucking cool yet it is relegated to the position of *another* early/mid game caster with terrible abilities.
Blizzard please look at revamping this unit. Please!!!!
EDIT here are some facts about phase shield:
On September 16 2012 04:20 StorrZerg wrote:The forums, said that the new shield ability on the orcale prevents effects. grabs and nurals, (but if you are nuraled it does not cut off control) EMP , it removes the cloaking defuff, idk if it prevents emp itself. Maras slow, gets removed I really think that ability is makes orcale viable. Well here is the quote, I'd be interested to know if this is correct, and how big the aoe is, (big as a fungle? bigger?) Show nested quote +
We have added a new area of effect ability for the oracle called Phase Shield.
Targeted friendly units are shielded from harmful effects for 5 seconds.
Fungal Growth, Corruption, Contaminate, Graviton Beam, Concussive Shells, Abduct, Revelation, Vortex, and 250mm Strike Cannons – Phase Shield removes the effect and prevents units from being affected.EMP – Phase Shield removes the anti-cloaking effect but not the damage dealt. Neural Parasite – Phase Shield will not remove this effect but it will prevent units from being affected.
New stuff!
Reapers - Neutral
I really like that they are trying to make the reaper viable, but I'm not convinced that allowing them to see up cliffs is the best way to make them more viable. Yeah it helps a ton in avoiding jumping to your death, but this should mean that reapers can really assist with marine/marauder/concussive early game pushes as the reapers ability to see on top of cliffs with give that a lot of strength. I'm willing to give it time to see how it helps the reaper, but I think that it isn't going to increase the use of reapers as they will remain a unit you build one of for scouting/attacking and then never touch them again.
HotS Terran - Bad
Now that the warhound is gone Terran feels a lot like Protoss does in HotS. Some 'additions' to their options, but only one real viable one (battle hellions/mothership). The stealth nerf to seeker missile (energy increased to 125, again) sucks as well. Another unit would be cool, looking at the raven and making it better would be cool, looking at removing thor energy would be another good thing to look at. Basically, I feel that Terran is now getting a raw deal and deserves some more love.
But just to be clear: this doesn't mean they should add the Warhound back (god no....) but they should look at doing something new and interesting with Terran.
 
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How does the Oracle Phase Shield have no uses? Could you elaborate on that a little? I was under the impression it wipes out/prevents any special ability which in my opinion is game changing especially in mid/late game PvZ. Keeping stalkers immune from fungal during key engagements will be an insanely useful thing, to a point where I would expect to see oracle use in almost every PvZ.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:47 LuckyFool wrote:
How does the Oracle Phase Shield have no uses? Could you elaborate on that a little? I was under the impression it wipes out/prevents any special ability which in my opinion is game changing especially in mid/late game PvZ. Keeping stalkers immune from fungal during key engagements will be an insanely useful thing, to a point where I would expect to see oracle use in almost every PvZ.
If it were an AoE spell, sure I'd be inclined with agree with you. But at the moment it is cast only on a single unit. At 50 energy (iirc? could be 75) it's simply not feasible to phase shield everything =/. Still, even if it were AoE, with a more accessible recall, fungal is still partly negated by a more accessible recall. Although, AoE phase shield + blink stalkers could be mad fun.
EDIT: I am retarded. It is AoE.
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I wholehearted agree with all those thoughts - especially making the Oracle (which I hate too at the moment) have a Maelstrom like spell (thus making bio weaker/mech stronger).
However, why make it a lategame unit ? Protoss has enough of this and not enough early game units.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:55 ArcticRaven wrote:
I wholehearted agree with all those thoughts - especially making the Oracle (which I hate too at the moment) have a Maelstrom like spell (thus making bio weaker/mech stronger).
However, why make it a lategame unit ? Protoss has enough of this and not enough early game units.
I don't really care where it comes in, I think there is potential for it to be more interesting.
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I'd rather Blizz address some of the fundamental problems of Siege Tanks vs Protoss before they start adding anything new and tricky to balance to Terran Mech.
The biggest problem with the Warhound from a design perspective was that it completely supplanted the Siege Tank as the core unit of a Mech army, and that isn't ok. (For reasons that have been well discussed already on TL blogs)
If they change the unit to be primarily focused on Anti-Air then they are now overlapping with Vikings and Thors, so I don't know if that is a good change to make either.
At this point, I'm really of the opinion that Terrans have enough units already in HOTS, and that focusing on improving the viability of the ones that aren't performing as well in WoL (like the Raven and Siege Tank vs Protoss) is the best way to go.
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ah yeah it's AoE, if it were single unit I'd agree with you.
And hopefully they make the animation better for it, I heard it was basically an idea they got from Grubby in the bnet pro forums, so they probably didn't really have an animation/visual design for it.
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On September 15 2012 22:52 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 22:47 LuckyFool wrote:
How does the Oracle Phase Shield have no uses? Could you elaborate on that a little? I was under the impression it wipes out/prevents any special ability which in my opinion is game changing especially in mid/late game PvZ. Keeping stalkers immune from fungal during key engagements will be an insanely useful thing, to a point where I would expect to see oracle use in almost every PvZ. If it were an AoE spell, sure I'd be inclined with agree with you. But at the moment it is cast only on a single unit. At 50 energy (iirc? could be 75) it's simply not feasible to phase shield everything =/. Still, even if it were AoE, with a more accessible recall, fungal is still partly negated by a more accessible recall. Although, AoE phase shield + blink stalkers could be mad fun. EDIT: I am retarded. It is AoE.
If its AoE then wouldnt it help a ton if you have blink stalkers vs infestor ling? You can negate all the fungals, use your blink again and with good micro blink stalkers oracle would destory infestor ling in theory.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 15 2012 23:02 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 22:52 Plexa wrote:On September 15 2012 22:47 LuckyFool wrote:
How does the Oracle Phase Shield have no uses? Could you elaborate on that a little? I was under the impression it wipes out/prevents any special ability which in my opinion is game changing especially in mid/late game PvZ. Keeping stalkers immune from fungal during key engagements will be an insanely useful thing, to a point where I would expect to see oracle use in almost every PvZ. If it were an AoE spell, sure I'd be inclined with agree with you. But at the moment it is cast only on a single unit. At 50 energy (iirc? could be 75) it's simply not feasible to phase shield everything =/. Still, even if it were AoE, with a more accessible recall, fungal is still partly negated by a more accessible recall. Although, AoE phase shield + blink stalkers could be mad fun. EDIT: I am retarded. It is AoE. If its AoE then wouldnt it help a ton if you have blink stalkers vs infestor ling? You can negate all the fungals, use your blink again and with good micro blink stalkers oracle would destory infestor ling in theory.
I guess we'll have to see how good it ends up being. My gut says that it will relegate infestor/ling to neverused, particularly when Zergs have swarm hosts, vipers and a whole host of other interesting things to do instead. That, again, kinda makes oracle useless by virtue of infestor/ling being unused. Still, wait and see, I still wish the unit were tweaked more.
On September 15 2012 23:00 LuckyFool wrote:
ah yeah it's AoE, if it were single unit I'd agree with you.
And hopefully they make the animation better for it, I heard it was basically an idea they got from Grubby in the bnet pro forums, so they probably didn't really have an animation/visual design for it.
That's pretty interesting to hear, gives me a bit more hope for the spell/unit.
Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if it counters Viper's grab thingy? mmmm unit tester time. If it does negate it then the oracle deserves to be neutral, rather than bad. Entomb still sucks as a spell :D
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Phase shield is Grubby's idea from the pros-only BNet forums. I guess he enough support of other pros?
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Oh man, Maelstrom would be really really cool but really really powerful if it were in SC2...
Two big concerns come to mind:
1 - The clumping that comes from unlimited unit selection combined with the late game deathball design approach. Just imagine if a: the protoss player had the option to build two or three motherships so they could cast two or three smaller vortex's at a time and then b: the zerg player's broodlords, corruptors, and infestors could be attacked and killed while they are in the vortex. That is basically what maelstrom would be like. Even if it had a very small AoE and cost more than 100 energy it would still be possible for 4 to 6 of this spell to be cast at once in a deathball vs deathball scenario. Another way to think about it, imagine a fungal growth where the units can't even continue shooting...
2 - The fact that protoss already has really strong drop defense via warp-in. Would it still ever be worth while for a Terran or Zerg to drop versus Protoss? Think about how Kaydarin amulet worked out...
Still, the idea of an anti-bio ability that allows late game ZvP to not entirely revolve around vortex, which can also provide utility against Terran bio play is very cool to think about.
Some other spell possibilities...
Stasis, single target only, unit is invulnerable during stasis.
Pros: Could be used en mass to fight against broodlord infestor (allowing for nerf of vortex to ground only), could be used to intercept drops but the dropping player has a chance to save their units by sending reinforcements. Like entomb, it does damage without actually killing units. Could be used to help keep the oracle alive when harassing if the defending player sends only a couple air units to kill it. Could be a strong counter to vipers. Queen harassment.
Cons: Too strong of a hard counter to mothership. Not sure if viper-abduct vs oracle-stasis wars would be a good thing or bad thing...
"Recall" with a smaller radius than the "Mass Recall" of the MS/MSC.
Pros: Fits with the harassment theme and not being part of the death ball, creates possibility for some extreme multi-pronged aggression
Cons: Overlaps with the functionality of the mothership and warp prism. Could be too much mobility
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Please no Maelstrom... we don't need another "Fungal growth" in the game.
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On September 15 2012 23:21 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Phase shield is Grubby's idea from the pros-only BNet forums. I guess he enough support of other pros?
Is this a real thing?
Anyhow, phase shield is a super good ability. Blink stalks without fungal, templars eithout emp, etc etc it makes things viable
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I think the "missing piece" for Terran right now is a big buff to the Widow Mine. We already know that it's a unit concept that can work very well and synergize with mech...it's just in its current form it has too many drawbacks to make it worthwhile.
Also, yeah, it seems a lot like the Tempest is going to have to be adjusted more to acclimate it to its "new" position in the Protoss arsenal. A non-capital ship that's more expensive than the actual capital ship is very awkward.
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On September 16 2012 01:06 Bippzy wrote:
Anyhow, phase shield is a super good ability. Blink stalks without fungal, templars eithout emp, etc etc it makes things viable
Unfortunately, it doesn't negate the most harmful of EMP's effects, only the decloak. It does, however, completely revolutionize PvZ, because it negates both Fungal Growth AND Abduct. It can also be used as a preventative measure against Neural Parasite, if it comes to that, and players probably wouldn't mind dispelling Corruption from their Colossi/Tempests/Carriers (remember that it would prevent Abduct at the same time). Grubby did good.
You don't have to burrow to activate burrow charge... In fact, you CAN'T burrow charge if you're burrowed. xD
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On September 16 2012 01:06 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 23:21 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Phase shield is Grubby's idea from the pros-only BNet forums. I guess he enough support of other pros? Is this a real thing? Anyhow, phase shield is a super good ability. Blink stalks without fungal, templars eithout emp, etc etc it makes things viable
yeah its real
For one, you have to burrow then activate charge
Is this accurate? Isnt the burrow automatic when you charge?
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On September 16 2012 01:27 Torte de Lini wrote:Is this accurate? Isnt the burrow automatic when you charge?
I was thinking the exact same thing. Isn't it automatic?
I'm confused...
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On September 16 2012 00:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Please no Maelstrom... we don't need another "Fungal growth" in the game.
Exactly what I was thinking. I was thinking phase sheild would make alot of sense on collusi, immortals and high templar and big, game changing units that toss has to keep alive, which makes alot of sense to me.
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Isn't the oracle a stargate observer?
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Getting more and more exited for HotS! :D So many new strategies waiting to be discovered!
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What I'm scared the most about the oracle is the potential use for it in late-ish game for protoss with a deathball.
I mean, it might turn the damn things nearly indestructible. :/
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You say you can't see a use for ultra charge in the current metagame (that's not old at all) why are you disregarding it because it's not got a use right now?
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Are you judging good or bad based on how interesting and well designed something is or how poweful something is?
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Personally I am glad that the terran had a stealth nerf for seeker missile. It does way too much damage in late late game, making it very cost effective. Its either keep it 100 energy but lessen the damage, or keep it the way it is now.
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the phase shield i dont think will last long, the whole reason you go infestors zvp is to root the army to stop them blinking under your army, otherwise the gas cost is better spent on broods. With this the now infestor will die much quicker than it ever did before as when you hit a PS unit there is that reaction time. Players will have to micro immediately to get them to safty or the other player is going to be on them. well in my games the biggest fear is the blinking stalker . .what do i do now? Build more roaches?
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On September 16 2012 03:06 YipCraft wrote:
Personally I am glad that the terran had a stealth nerf for seeker missile. It does way too much damage in late late game, making it very cost effective. Its either keep it 100 energy but lessen the damage, or keep it the way it is now.
Most Terrans were like "finally! They saw our lategame woes and realized we needed help in that department, vs brood/infestor/corruptor, and more importantly vs all the new units the other races get lategame! FINALLY!!!"
And then blizzard says it was a "bug" ..... that meme of the "Are you kidding me?" face is basically how every Terran reacted to that lol.
"Blizzard balances lategame TvZ...on accident" would also be an appropriate meme.
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How is phase shield situational? The way I see it is you use it whenever you're about to take damage. That almost seems like you'd want to use it all the time, rather than just some of the time.
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I enjoy reading these plexa. I am trying to reserve judgement on HOTS stuff until I play it for myself, (hopefully beta key, or when the game comes out lol)
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The forums, said that the new shield ability on the orcale prevents effects. grabs and nurals, (but if you are nuraled it does not cut off control)
EMP , it removes the cloaking defuff, idk if it prevents emp itself.
Maras slow, gets removed
I really think that ability is makes orcale viable.
Well here is the quote, I'd be interested to know if this is correct, and how big the aoe is, (big as a fungle? bigger?)
We have added a new area of effect ability for the oracle called Phase Shield.
Targeted friendly units are shielded from harmful effects for 5 seconds.
Fungal Growth, Corruption, Contaminate, Graviton Beam, Concussive Shells, Abduct, Revelation, Vortex, and 250mm Strike Cannons – Phase Shield removes the effect and prevents units from being affected.EMP – Phase Shield removes the anti-cloaking effect but not the damage dealt. Neural Parasite – Phase Shield will not remove this effect but it will prevent units from being affected.
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wait, are you saying they removed the warhound for this patch?
edit: just answered my own question when I saw the patch notes..
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Doesn't the Tempest now overlap with the Void Ray? In terms of damage to massive? I guess the advantages are the range and the damage (not just in terms of damage but also because they don't have to charge up). I'd assume this is why the cost is so prohibitive as Tempests, in PvZ for example, could be used to pick off BLs while the main Protoss army sits happily out of spine/fungal range. I assume this would mean Zerg being a lot more active in picking off scouting observers and Protoss being careful with Oracle vision vs its other abilities. Heck Protoss could even use Hallu to spot for Tempests target firing BLs.
(Hmm, just thinking aloud, here.)
I'd still prefer some reworking of the VR, myself. It's a cool unit (reminiscent of Vorlon ship design from Babylon 5) and cool concept. I think giving it a range upgrade at FB and a reworked flux vanes speed upgrade, also at FB, could mean that it could perform the supposed new functions of the Tempest at a lower (overall) cost, and be a cooler supplement to the Protoss fleet.
Maybe, I'm just not a fan of the Tempest. But, I don't see a place for it with both the Void Ray and Carrier in the game.
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On September 16 2012 02:53 Denzil wrote:
You say you can't see a use for ultra charge in the current metagame (that's not old at all) why are you disregarding it because it's not got a use right now?
It kinda sucks. I have tried it a few times and it's not very good. It might be good vs bio, but vs mech it's awful. Since everybody is going mech in the beta haven't been able to test it vs bio yet.
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Another nice write-up!
I agree completely with your suggestions on the tempest. It really could make toss air interesting again if it weren't too powerful but actually were accessible. 
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On September 16 2012 06:02 aZealot wrote:
Doesn't the Tempest now overlap with the Void Ray? In terms of damage to massive? I guess the advantages are the range and the damage (not just in terms of damage but also because they don't have to charge up). I'd assume this is why the cost is so prohibitive as Tempests, in PvZ for example, could be used to pick off BLs while the main Protoss army sits happily out of spine/fungal range. I assume this would mean Zerg being a lot more active in picking off scouting observers and Protoss being careful with Oracle vision vs its other abilities. Heck Protoss could even use Hallu to spot for Tempests target firing BLs.
(Hmm, just thinking aloud, here.)
I'd still prefer some reworking of the VR, myself. It's a cool unit (reminiscent of Vorlon ship design from Babylon 5) and cool concept. I think giving it a range upgrade at FB and a reworked flux vanes speed upgrade, also at FB, could mean that it could perform the supposed new functions of the Tempest at a lower (overall) cost, and be a cooler supplement to the Protoss fleet.
Maybe, I'm just not a fan of the Tempest. But, I don't see a place for it with both the Void Ray and Carrier in the game.
My thoughts exactly about the void ray and tempest. They could just take away the speed upgrade and replace it with a range upgrade and it would do exactly what the tempest is now slated to do, but with smoother transitions and a more interesting attack mechanic.
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It seems like the raven is either too powerful or it is too expensive and useless without enough energy to seeker missile. I would like to see the Science Vessel take its place. With Irradiate, Mech-repair, and EMP, the Vessel would be able to replace the Raven's utility as well as better suit the mech army.
What do you think?
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On September 16 2012 08:19 imJealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:02 aZealot wrote:
Doesn't the Tempest now overlap with the Void Ray? In terms of damage to massive? I guess the advantages are the range and the damage (not just in terms of damage but also because they don't have to charge up). I'd assume this is why the cost is so prohibitive as Tempests, in PvZ for example, could be used to pick off BLs while the main Protoss army sits happily out of spine/fungal range. I assume this would mean Zerg being a lot more active in picking off scouting observers and Protoss being careful with Oracle vision vs its other abilities. Heck Protoss could even use Hallu to spot for Tempests target firing BLs.
(Hmm, just thinking aloud, here.)
I'd still prefer some reworking of the VR, myself. It's a cool unit (reminiscent of Vorlon ship design from Babylon 5) and cool concept. I think giving it a range upgrade at FB and a reworked flux vanes speed upgrade, also at FB, could mean that it could perform the supposed new functions of the Tempest at a lower (overall) cost, and be a cooler supplement to the Protoss fleet.
Maybe, I'm just not a fan of the Tempest. But, I don't see a place for it with both the Void Ray and Carrier in the game. My thoughts exactly about the void ray and tempest. They could just take away the speed upgrade and replace it with a range upgrade and it would do exactly what the tempest is now slated to do, but with smoother transitions and a more interesting attack mechanic.
Wow, I just had an idea for how to make the void ray actually good. First get rid of the charge mechanic, which we all discovered is failed design. It caused the unit to be nerfed hard and now you never even see a void ray charge up.
Instead, void rays could still have their beam attack, and could still have two sets of damage, but range would determine which was used. At long range the beam is low DPS, and at short range the beam becomes higher DPS (more concentrated closer up). So maybe 5 or less range, they have a thick beam, but 5 to 10 range, they have a thin beam. The exact amount of damage could be adjusted easily.
This would create interesting micro and more of the positional battles everyone wants to see. The opponent would be trying to stay out of close range until they knew they had enough firepower to take it out quick, or just try to kill it from a distance with vikings. The void ray player would be deciding whether it's right to move in close and go for the kill, or if it's better to just pick away from the outside.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 16 2012 01:27 Torte de Lini wrote:Is this accurate? Isnt the burrow automatic when you charge? Yes you are right. Still kinda awkward to use :D
On September 16 2012 02:58 MCDayC wrote:
Are you judging good or bad based on how interesting and well designed something is or how poweful something is?
It's a completely arbitrary ranking based on;
- whether or not the addition brings anything new to the race
- whether or not the addition is interesting and/or fun
- how good my gut says it is
On September 16 2012 04:05 Roe wrote:
How is phase shield situational? The way I see it is you use it whenever you're about to take damage. That almost seems like you'd want to use it all the time, rather than just some of the time.
Doesn't counter damage; I've included storrzerg's post on it in my OP. Useful mostly against fungal, and potentially grab
On September 16 2012 09:06 banjo1735 wrote:
It seems like the raven is either too powerful or it is too expensive and useless without enough energy to seeker missile. I would like to see the Science Vessel take its place. With Irradiate, Mech-repair, and EMP, the Vessel would be able to replace the Raven's utility as well as better suit the mech army.
What do you think?
As cool as the science vessel would be, EMP overlaps with ghost and mech repair is kinda boring. Ravens are more interesting, but only if seeker missile is viable. 100 mana for missile isn't asking for too much.
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I really like how you take the time to talk about the game so that people who don't have a beta key yet can still enjoy some good information.
I kind of feel like the Tempest and Void ray have similar roles, since the Tempest now deals bonus damage to massive units. Why would anyone choose the Void Ray over the Tempest when the Tempest can safely fire away with its 15 range? I really liked the idea of the V.R when SC2 first came out, but now its just a shell of its former self.
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On September 15 2012 22:40 Plexa wrote:
HotS Terran - Bad
Now that the warhound is gone Terran feels a lot like Protoss does in HotS. Some 'additions' to their options, but only one real viable one (battle hellions/mothership). The stealth nerf to seeker missile (energy increased to 125, again) sucks as well. Another unit would be cool, looking at the raven and making it better would be cool, looking at removing thor energy would be another good thing to look at. Basically, I feel that Terran is now getting a raw deal and deserves some more love.
But just to be clear: this doesn't mean they should add the Warhound back (god no....) but they should look at doing something new and interesting with Terran.
I think they removed the Warhound so they could diagnose the problems of mech and later add a new unit (or possibly a heavily modified Warhound) which solves it.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:32 iremnant3847 wrote:
I really like how you take the time to talk about the game so that people who don't have a beta key yet can still enjoy some good information.
I kind of feel like the Tempest and Void ray have similar roles, since the Tempest now deals bonus damage to massive units. Why would anyone choose the Void Ray over the Tempest when the Tempest can safely fire away with its 15 range? I really liked the idea of the V.R when SC2 first came out, but now its just a shell of its former self.
VRs are much better at dealing with BC's while Tempests are better at Broods. Basically, a VR is a unit which deals a ton of damage but is fragile while the Tempest is a siege weapon which can assault a base from a distance and/or initiate an engagement - unfortunately, it too is fragile.
Theres a place for both units in the protoss airforce imo
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Actually, I just looked up VR and Tempest DPS vs massive... they are frighteningly similar (15.15 DPS (Tempest) vs 15.96 DPS (VR)).
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 16 2012 14:46 Antylamon wrote:
Actually, I just looked up VR and Tempest DPS vs massive... they are frighteningly similar (15.15 DPS (Tempest) vs 15.96 DPS (VR)).
yeah exactly, but voids are much cheaper with less range - there's definitely a place for both units
Tempests atm kinda serve as an anti-noobie zerg unit. You make one and harass them and then they throw their hands up in the air and go 'WTF MY SHIT CAN'T HIT THAT' and the leave the game
Hilarious.
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On September 16 2012 14:56 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 14:46 Antylamon wrote:
Actually, I just looked up VR and Tempest DPS vs massive... they are frighteningly similar (15.15 DPS (Tempest) vs 15.96 DPS (VR)). yeah exactly, but voids are much cheaper with less range - there's definitely a place for both units Tempests atm kinda serve as an anti-noobie unit. You make one and harass them and then they throw their hands up in the air and go 'WTF MY SHIT CAN'T HIT THAT' and the leave the game Hilarious.
That is quite funny!
But with BCs having 100 energy Yamato now, they can take out voids in 1 shot more easily than ever before. Plus Voidray's high charged DPS against them wouldn't even have a chance to kick in. It seems they wouldn't be ideal, unless you get some feedbacks off first.
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I think Oracles and Carries have great synergy against lategame Zerg. I tried it out when it got to that point. I have around 3 orcacles 4 carriers and 4 tempests. Protecting my carriers and tempests from being abducted or fungaled by using phase shield. It's really awesome. For me Phase shield is becoming better and better the more I'm playing around with it. It's pretty useless against Terran though but that's fine.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 16 2012 17:00 Seiniyta wrote:
I think Oracles and Carries have great synergy against lategame Zerg. I tried it out when it got to that point. I have around 3 orcacles 4 carriers and 4 tempests. Protecting my carriers and tempests from being abducted or fungaled by using phase shield. It's really awesome. For me Phase shield is becoming better and better the more I'm playing around with it. It's pretty useless against Terran though but that's fine.
Yeah I'm warming up to the ability, but I'm a bit conflicted about where and when you should be aiming to use it. I tried messing around with it on a blink stalker 2 base which didn't work out so well.
On September 16 2012 15:12 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 14:56 Plexa wrote:On September 16 2012 14:46 Antylamon wrote:
Actually, I just looked up VR and Tempest DPS vs massive... they are frighteningly similar (15.15 DPS (Tempest) vs 15.96 DPS (VR)). yeah exactly, but voids are much cheaper with less range - there's definitely a place for both units Tempests atm kinda serve as an anti-noobie unit. You make one and harass them and then they throw their hands up in the air and go 'WTF MY SHIT CAN'T HIT THAT' and the leave the game Hilarious. That is quite funny! But with BCs having 100 energy Yamato now, they can take out voids in 1 shot more easily than ever before. Plus Voidray's high charged DPS against them wouldn't even have a chance to kick in. It seems they wouldn't be ideal, unless you get some feedbacks off first.
Yes Yamato is more useful as well - which is good imo. Still, I went up against BCs the other day and the best counter to them was voids hands down (with some feedbacks). Tempests just cost too much gas to be built reactively against BCs.
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On September 16 2012 18:59 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:00 Seiniyta wrote:
I think Oracles and Carries have great synergy against lategame Zerg. I tried it out when it got to that point. I have around 3 orcacles 4 carriers and 4 tempests. Protecting my carriers and tempests from being abducted or fungaled by using phase shield. It's really awesome. For me Phase shield is becoming better and better the more I'm playing around with it. It's pretty useless against Terran though but that's fine. Yeah I'm warming up to the ability, but I'm a bit conflicted about where and when you should be aiming to use it. I tried messing around with it on a blink stalker 2 base which didn't work out so well.
I find it also useful when you go for phoenix harrasment. Usually when infestors are out phoenix harrasment is shut down really hard but you can for example phase shield just when you see infestors. If your reaction is fast enough fungal growth doesn't affect the phoenix and you can kill them. To be honest, I think the ability might be even too strong but we'll see. It's a fun ability for sure which I made many zergs already cry.
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Italy12246 Posts
It looks like Phase Shield is just meant as a way to stop Fungals, and doing that with air play also makes the transition into a lategame sky protoss army a lot more doable; tbh i'm ok with that. Right now Archon Toilet is just a silly way to stop a lategame, and the gas saved from going mothership+mass archons could make getting just a few Oracles, Tempests or Carriers out a lot easier.
Plexa, have you run into a Z protecting his broods with both Fungal and Blinding Cloud from Vipers, and if so, is it stronger than current Infestor/Broodlord?
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On September 16 2012 18:59 Plexa wrote:
Yes Yamato is more useful as well - which is good imo. Still, I went up against BCs the other day and the best counter to them was voids hands down (with some feedbacks). Tempests just cost too much gas to be built reactively against BCs.
Do Void Rays effectively counter Tempests in PvP? I imagine they would.
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I'm really worried that the Tempest is going to overlap with the Void Ray, which has already fallen out of a lot of its cooler uses.
I think they're on the right direction, but I hope some more tweaking is done. I don't know why they reduced the Tempest range from 22 to 15, the 22 range was what made the thing unique.
What if the Tempest had even lower DPS, but did AoE damage? That would I think make it better for plinking away at an entrenched army from a distance, but worse as a frontline combat unit. And then it would mesh with the VR better.
Good read though Plexa. Do one for every patch!
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Can someone update me on the status of the Battlecruiser afterburners upgrade, the Ghost cloaking system, and the burrowmove banelings? Are they all gone? I can't find it online. .__.
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On September 17 2012 08:58 Brutaxilos wrote:
Can someone update me on the status of the Battlecruiser afterburners upgrade, the Ghost cloaking system, and the burrowmove banelings? Are they all gone? I can't find it online. .__.
They aren't in the beta, they've likely been scrapped.
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Is a melee unit for Terran evening the odds vs the other races, considering that the lack of a cheap and effective cannon fodder is what basically made WoL Terran weaker in longer lower league matches? Or is it some other issue with spells, unit comp in the other races just being better, weak something else, etc?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 16 2012 20:44 Teoita wrote:
It looks like Phase Shield is just meant as a way to stop Fungals, and doing that with air play also makes the transition into a lategame sky protoss army a lot more doable; tbh i'm ok with that. Right now Archon Toilet is just a silly way to stop a lategame, and the gas saved from going mothership+mass archons could make getting just a few Oracles, Tempests or Carriers out a lot easier.
Plexa, have you run into a Z protecting his broods with both Fungal and Blinding Cloud from Vipers, and if so, is it stronger than current Infestor/Broodlord?
Have not run into this. Most Zergs who use Vipers use them with aggressive unit compositions like Ultras, Hydra/ling etc. Stealing colossus atm is really powerful and underexploited since every zerg is using swarm hosts right now.
On September 16 2012 21:02 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 18:59 Plexa wrote:
Yes Yamato is more useful as well - which is good imo. Still, I went up against BCs the other day and the best counter to them was voids hands down (with some feedbacks). Tempests just cost too much gas to be built reactively against BCs. Do Void Rays effectively counter Tempests in PvP? I imagine they would.
No idea, but I suspect VRs would beat them for cost (250/150/3), stalkers might too. Keep in mind that tempests are 300/300/6
On September 17 2012 00:48 Ketara wrote:
I'm really worried that the Tempest is going to overlap with the Void Ray, which has already fallen out of a lot of its cooler uses.
I think they're on the right direction, but I hope some more tweaking is done. I don't know why they reduced the Tempest range from 22 to 15, the 22 range was what made the thing unique. 22 range was absolutely stupid. You couldn't even see the tempest and the unit it was hitting in the same screen. That is terrible for spectators. 15 range is still more than anything in the game (afaik) and still keeps its utility. VR and Tempest won't overlap, they have two very different roles.
On September 17 2012 08:58 Brutaxilos wrote:
Can someone update me on the status of the Battlecruiser afterburners upgrade, the Ghost cloaking system, and the burrowmove banelings? Are they all gone? I can't find it online. .__.
Gone, not in this patch nor the last.
On September 17 2012 10:56 imBLIND wrote:
Is a melee unit for Terran evening the odds vs the other races, considering that the lack of a cheap and effective cannon fodder is what basically made WoL Terran weaker in longer lower league matches? Or is it some other issue with spells, unit comp in the other races just being better, weak something else, etc?
It's the fact that Terran units have a higher skill requirement for each unit than the other races. A normal marine sucks, but a MKP marine is godlike. The game needs to be balanced for MKP, and that can make it rough for lower leaguers who dont have the same ability. Although really, they should be playing mech because mech kills everything at 200/200
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does blinding cloud prevent non melee damage from being taken or does it just not let units see anything until they are in melee range? like a scan doesnt undo the effects of it, does it?
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I'd sort of like the warhound to be brought back, but with a substantially different role.
Goliath :|
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On September 17 2012 14:21 Froadac wrote:
I'd sort of like the warhound to be brought back, but with a substantially different role.
Goliath :|
Buffing ground-mode viking by making them benefit from mech upgrades could be a cool alternative. After all the Goliath's anti air role in SC2 Mech is primarily filled by vikings.
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On September 17 2012 13:17 Aveng3r wrote:
does blinding cloud prevent non melee damage from being taken or does it just not let units see anything until they are in melee range? like a scan doesnt undo the effects of it, does it?
Max attack range for units in the AoE is reduced to melee. The spell does not affect vision, scan doesn't make it go away.
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On September 17 2012 21:04 BobMcJohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 14:21 Froadac wrote:
I'd sort of like the warhound to be brought back, but with a substantially different role.
Goliath :| Buffing ground-mode viking by making them benefit from mech upgrades could be a cool alternative. After all the Goliath's anti air role in SC2 Mech is primarily filled by vikings.
I like you, good talk.
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I'd like to see Vikings have some sort of a unique upgrade. They're the only Terran unit that doesn't have its own upgrade.
I think that would be a great design goal for Blizz to have. Every unit should have its own unique upgrade, even if it's just like a speed boost. Players who want a strategy that revolves around an individual unit they like should be able to have it.
There's all kinds of unique upgrades you could give the Viking, although buffing its ground mode would be the most sensible option I think.
I guess Widow Mines don't have an upgrade now. Should have an upgrade that changes them to 1 supply!
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I would like Vikings to be removed because that unit is shit and boring. It is a typical a-moving unit with little micro potentials beside kitting.
I wish they would fuse Reaper + Vikings together.
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Allow vikings to move and shoot while transforming. Would make kiting sort of interesting.
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Imo the energize ability will be removed at the end of the beta, I think it's here so you can test the new spells more easily and frequently, but I feel it'll be too powerful to stay in the game. Ignoring the rest and imagining it could only be used to inject energy into nexus to chronoboost probes, that would be too much for instance vs terran. Being at 25% worker deficit can work because of mule (common scenario in wol), being at more than that would not work imo.
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On September 18 2012 09:43 MrCon wrote:
Imo the energize ability will be removed at the end of the beta, I think it's here so you can test the new spells more easily and frequently, but I feel it'll be too powerful to stay in the game. Ignoring the rest and imagining it could only be used to inject energy into nexus to chronoboost probes, that would be too much for instance vs terran. Being at 25% worker deficit can work because of mule (common scenario in wol), being at more than that would not work imo.
Blizzard said if that becomes an issue, they would just not let the ability target buildings...
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Terran needs serious help. The changes to toss are really quite good(tempest still too expensive) which gives me hope that blizz is moving in the right direction(I was feeling pretty hopeless about HotS), but I really have no enthusiasm for the game if terran stays anywhere close to where it is.
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I think reapers should be able to see upcliffs, but only for them, so other units should be able to shoot up with reapers vision, dont really know if that would be to weird to implement
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On September 18 2012 21:16 Matkap wrote:
I think reapers should be able to see upcliffs, but only for them, so other units should be able to shoot up with reapers vision, dont really know if that would be to weird to implement
I don't quite understand what you are saying. Reapers granting vision to high ground allows other units to attack up? I think it woudl be a pretty cool mechanic if the reapre granted you vision, but units and buildings that are visible due to the reaper can't be targeted by your units, so you would have to kill them with spells or use the reapers for scouting.
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On September 18 2012 03:23 imBLIND wrote:
Allow vikings to move and shoot while transforming. Would make kiting sort of interesting.
haha dude that would be so sick, you could piss off zerg players so much with this
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I would like entomb to be replaced with stasis, and cost a lot more energy, also remove vortex and archon toilets.
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/HotS/W1/energise.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/HotS/W1/widowmines.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/HotS/W1/tempest.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/HotS/W1/bellion.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/HotS/W1/viper.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/HotS/W1/phaseshield.jpg)
