• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:55
CEST 20:55
KST 03:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru0BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack0Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation StarCraft 1 & 2 Added to Xbox Game Pass
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET [ASL19] Grand Finals NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 37824 users

"All-ins" that aren't all-in

Blogs > TrippSC2
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
TrippSC2
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States209 Posts
September 10 2012 03:38 GMT
#1
While watching SuHoSin versus Seed in Code S, I was listening to the commentary about SuHoSin's cheesy playstyle and Artosis made some comments about playing against styles like his as facing "a series of all-ins." It got me thinking that the community uses the term "all-in" in such a broad sense that it seems to have lost its original meaning.

The shift from the original definition of "a play that will either win or lose the game outright" toward a more loose definition of "any risky play that requires damage to be dealt to be worthwhile" is much less specific and harder to really draw a boundary for.

As an example, is a 2 base roach-ling-baneling push an all-in in ZvT? Well, if Zerg takes a third base behind it and terran defends flawlessly, zerg is behind for sure due to a lack of upgrades and lower drone count, but not out of the game. However, if a zerg 10 pools and pulls drones and that fails, it is a true all-in and the game is basically over.

This specifically gets kind of touchy when discussing strategy with people due to the negative connotations that the term "all-in" carries (at least for NA players) and the imprecise definition.

In short, I guess I feel like the lexicon of the game could use a term that bridges the gap between high risk-high reward play and "all-in." The other option is to refer to risky play as "all-in" but reserve a separate term for a true "do-or-die" all-in.

I'm anxious to hear the community's thoughts on this.

*
DRTnOOber
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
New Zealand476 Posts
September 10 2012 03:49 GMT
#2
Like a lot of things (e.g. "The Cloud") the phrase "all-in" has become a buzz word which doesn't really mean a lot anymore. I get a bit frustrated by the lack of vocabulary used by Tastosis and a lack of real analysis at an expert level and this is really part of that.
But I'm off creep... and so I slow down, what are hellions doing here? I don't belong here...
xmungam
Profile Joined July 2012
United States1050 Posts
September 10 2012 04:58 GMT
#3
all in to me means when you stop making workers and only attack.

but this is dumb because you can stop and start making workers whenever you want. so 4gate is only an all in until you expand...

which makes sc2 a hard game imo
youtube.com/xmungam ~~ twitch.tv/thenessman
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
September 10 2012 05:08 GMT
#4
On September 10 2012 13:58 xmungam wrote:
all in to me means when you stop making workers and only attack.

but this is dumb because you can stop and start making workers whenever you want. so 4gate is only an all in until you expand...

which makes sc2 a hard game imo

24 Probes at 10 minutes is not the same as 24 probes at 5 minutes.

It's an all-in if your failed attack puts you so far behind that you're forced to rely on your opponent's mistakes.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Leyra
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1222 Posts
September 10 2012 05:15 GMT
#5
If Zerg does a roach/bane timing and it's defended perfectly, they're at 35 drones vs a terrans 40-45, plus 2(or 3), mules, vs Banshee(presumably), potentially double upgrades, etc.

If Terran loses from this position it requires a really really big mistake. At high levels, those mistakes aren't made often. Thus, it's an "all-in." If your attack is required to do significant damage, otherwise you're behind so much that it takes a huge mistake, it's an all in. Otherwise, something like a 4gate isn't all in, cause you can say shit like "Well, Protoss has 20 probes, no natural, and the other player has more workers, better tech, and possibly an expo, but Protoss could technically come back!"
snexwang
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia224 Posts
September 10 2012 06:14 GMT
#6
On September 10 2012 12:38 TrippSC2 wrote:
As an example, is a 2 base roach-ling-baneling push an all-in in ZvT? Well, if Zerg takes a third base behind it and terran defends flawlessly, zerg is behind for sure due to a lack of upgrades and lower drone count, but not out of the game.
The correct (more precise) definition still holds in this case, as the zerg, in a perfect world, should still lose.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 10 2012 07:01 GMT
#7
I've had lots of arguments about this. Some people contend that some builds aren't all in because they could still do damage and transition into a regular game, but that just threatens to make the phrase totally meaningless. Surely you aren't saying that there's NO SUCH THING as an all in build?

If I 6 pool and kill all but 5 probes does that mean it wasn't an all in?

I grant that there are certain levels of 'deadness'. If a Protoss goes two base stalker and fails, they may not be dead yet but without tech I'd say they are very far behind. I think sometimes Zerg appears to be all in but if the opponent has no ability to apply pressure then they might be able to drone like crazy.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
PandaTank
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
South Africa255 Posts
September 10 2012 07:43 GMT
#8
On September 10 2012 14:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2012 13:58 xmungam wrote:
all in to me means when you stop making workers and only attack.

but this is dumb because you can stop and start making workers whenever you want. so 4gate is only an all in until you expand...

which makes sc2 a hard game imo

24 Probes at 10 minutes is not the same as 24 probes at 5 minutes.

It's an all-in if your failed attack puts you so far behind that you're forced to rely on your opponent's mistakes.


Yet if your opponent were to make a big enough mistake, you could still win. So how exactly is it "all-in"? The term is useless at describing SC2 in my opinion. Like other people said, its just a buzz word, sounds cool, doesn't really have any relevance to the game.
facebook.com/PandaTank \\\ @PandaTankSC2
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
September 10 2012 08:11 GMT
#9
On September 10 2012 16:43 PandaTank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2012 14:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On September 10 2012 13:58 xmungam wrote:
all in to me means when you stop making workers and only attack.

but this is dumb because you can stop and start making workers whenever you want. so 4gate is only an all in until you expand...

which makes sc2 a hard game imo

24 Probes at 10 minutes is not the same as 24 probes at 5 minutes.

It's an all-in if your failed attack puts you so far behind that you're forced to rely on your opponent's mistakes.


Yet if your opponent were to make a big enough mistake, you could still win. So how exactly is it "all-in"? The term is useless at describing SC2 in my opinion. Like other people said, its just a buzz word, sounds cool, doesn't really have any relevance to the game.

It's pretty dumb to try to describe it in SC2, it worked perfectly for the All-ins in Broodwar though.
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-10 08:16:08
September 10 2012 08:14 GMT
#10
Regarding Suhosin's play, the point they were trying to make is that his intial investments into, say, baneling drops, did so little for him that all he could do was try to pull off even more gimmicky play (i think he went hydra bust as a followup on Entombed while staying on 2 bases and having a worse economy than the Protoss for a very long time for example) that would only set him farther and farther behind.

The thing with "all-ins" is, you are completely dead if you try to followup with standard play because you are behind in the first place. It's like starting to play down a worker.

That said, some builds are more allin than others. A 20 probe 4gate is allin because if the opponent isn't dead 7 minutes into the game, he will most likely have twice as much stuff as you do 8-9 minutes into the game. A Protoss pre-hive timing attack on 3 bases is somewhat allin as if you don't do a ton of damage (say, kill the 4th and reset the infestor count to 0), you will not have the tools to deal with Broodlords efficiently, but it's still a situation you can get out of. A 2 Colossus push in PvT is somewhat allin as you delay a great deal of tech and upgrades to get enough units to protect your fast colossi so they can be a threat. The list goes on and on.

Wether something is "all-in" isn't a black and white thing, in Starcraft there's an insane amount of builds, and everyone can or can not be "all-in" in different shades of grey, and they are constantly changing.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Mstring
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia510 Posts
September 10 2012 08:49 GMT
#11
I use it as a technical term for the state of spending all of your income on army reinforcements. I haven't really [yet] put much thought into how this applies to zerg.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6539 Posts
September 10 2012 10:52 GMT
#12
Aggressive play
Aphasie
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway474 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-10 12:26:51
September 10 2012 12:20 GMT
#13
To me an all.in is:
A gambit where the agressor sacrifices economy and/or tech to do crippling damage or win out-right. The difference between an all-in or say agressive play/timing attack is that an all-in leaves you with virtually no outs/transitions and you wholly rely on your opponent making huge mistakes.

For instance going a 1-base DT strat is all-in. If you get shut down by permanent detection the game is virtually lost
If you go for a quick DT after expo you're investing heavily in tech that can do massive damage now, but wont be so useful later (next 10min+). So if you do next to no damage with your now "worthless" tech you're playing from behind, but you still have some means of transition because of the expo. So it's not as "all-in".

I dont think its over used. If you go for a strategy that will give your oponent a next to insurmountable advantage unless you
kill him, it's an all-in


Edit:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/All-in
TrippSC2
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States209 Posts
September 10 2012 12:29 GMT
#14
On September 10 2012 17:14 Teoita wrote:
Regarding Suhosin's play, the point they were trying to make is that his intial investments into, say, baneling drops, did so little for him that all he could do was try to pull off even more gimmicky play (i think he went hydra bust as a followup on Entombed while staying on 2 bases and having a worse economy than the Protoss for a very long time for example) that would only set him farther and farther behind.

The thing with "all-ins" is, you are completely dead if you try to followup with standard play because you are behind in the first place. It's like starting to play down a worker.

That said, some builds are more allin than others. A 20 probe 4gate is allin because if the opponent isn't dead 7 minutes into the game, he will most likely have twice as much stuff as you do 8-9 minutes into the game. A Protoss pre-hive timing attack on 3 bases is somewhat allin as if you don't do a ton of damage (say, kill the 4th and reset the infestor count to 0), you will not have the tools to deal with Broodlords efficiently, but it's still a situation you can get out of. A 2 Colossus push in PvT is somewhat allin as you delay a great deal of tech and upgrades to get enough units to protect your fast colossi so they can be a threat. The list goes on and on.

Wether something is "all-in" isn't a black and white thing, in Starcraft there's an insane amount of builds, and everyone can or can not be "all-in" in different shades of grey, and they are constantly changing.

I agree with most of your post.

I do understand what Artosis was getting it and I think it was totally appropriate for the target audience, since GSL viewers are more likely to understand the game and terms used better than viewers of other tournaments. I also agree that the plays that he was going for were highly risky and did warrant being called "all-in." In fact, I only mentioned it because it was what got me thinking about the term in the first place.

I also understand that casters need terms like that to be able to convey what they want to say concisely during a cast.

I also completely agree that it is situational. In a very scrappy game, attacking with a low worker count at a later portion of the game isn't an all-in because you know that your opponent is in the same boat, but the same attack in a very passive game is most likely an all-in.

My only big point of contention is that the term loses it's meaning if thrown around too often and in too many situations. Is any time that a zerg attempts to be aggressive an all-in? Violet has made a pretty solid career off of being aggressive throughout long macro games, but I doubt that anyone would say that his aggression is all-in. For non-zerg, how big does an investment need to be (or a pause in worker production) to consistute an "all-in"?
TrippSC2
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States209 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-10 12:40:55
September 10 2012 12:37 GMT
#15
On September 10 2012 21:20 Aphasie wrote:
To me an all.in is:
A gambit where the agressor sacrifices economy and/or tech to do crippling damage or win out-right. The difference between an all-in or say agressive play/timing attack is that an all-in leaves you with virtually no outs/transitions and you wholly rely on your opponent making huge mistakes.

For instance going a 1-base DT strat is all-in. If you get shut down by permanent detection the game is virtually lost
If you go for a quick DT after expo you're investing heavily in tech that can do massive damage now, but wont be so useful later (next 10min+). So if you do next to no damage with your now "worthless" tech you're playing from behind, but you still have some means of transition because of the expo. So it's not as "all-in".

I dont think its over used. If you go for a strategy that will give your oponent a next to insurmountable advantage unless you
kill him, it's an all-in


Edit:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/All-in

I'm aware of the definition of the term and that was included in the OP.

My point is there are clear-cut strategies that are all-ins (4 gate, 1 base DT rush, 1 base roach, 6-9 pool, etc.) and others that are aggressive and risky, but not necessarily all-in, like the 2 base roach-bane aggression that I mentioned in the OP. I'm sure there are several other plays that are ambiguous like that, as well. Casters tend to call them all-ins anyway, because there doesn't appear to be a clear term for an aggressive timing that is risky and puts you at a disadvantage if it fails, without losing you the game outright.
Tommie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
China658 Posts
September 10 2012 14:31 GMT
#16
I think it is better to say: I am going 'all in' with this than to say: this is 'an all in'.

However, there are some builds that you just go all in with. Those builds are all ins.
Being a ho doesn't automatically make you "immoral" or a bad person, but it does make you a ho.
happyft
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States470 Posts
September 10 2012 15:16 GMT
#17
Why can't people just use the term, "semi all-in"? It's just like in poker when someone semi-bluffs at a flop with only an open ended straight draw -- it's not a true bluff, but it is a pretty strong bluff nonetheless.
StateofReverie
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States633 Posts
September 10 2012 19:09 GMT
#18
I use all in as a very loose term. I have played many games where I have won after doing a roach/banelng all in or a proxy 2 rax or a 3 rax all in. Sometimes the game stabilizes, and from an all in start, the game proceeds to a macro game
TORTOISE
Profile Joined December 2010
United States515 Posts
September 10 2012 19:46 GMT
#19
There is no such thing as an all in.

It is an illusion.

The SC2 fanbase latched onto this notion of "all ins are bad" early into SC2's life, poopularized by Grack Fields who was quick to ridicule anyone who attacked him. It was for good reason, however, that Grack took this stance. Early SC2 was almost purely 1 base play, quick attacks on very small maps.

Sadly, as SC2 grew and the metagame shifted toward favoring macro play, the fan base was unable to let go of their negative views of "all ins". The collective fanbase silently took "no rush 20 minute" to be the be-all, end-all of standard play. Any aggression and you were a "cheesy faggot" and needed to "learn to play" and should even "uninstall, you baddy-poo-poo-trash".

There was and is plenty of all in play in Brood War, and it's a legitimate way to play. I think we as a community need to let go of our unnecessary fear of "all ins" and start using them more. For fun. Or science.
◕ ‿‿ ◕ ๑•́ ₃ •̀๑ ( ͡ ° ͜ ʖ ͡°)
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-10 20:46:07
September 10 2012 20:44 GMT
#20
On September 10 2012 16:43 PandaTank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2012 14:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On September 10 2012 13:58 xmungam wrote:
all in to me means when you stop making workers and only attack.

but this is dumb because you can stop and start making workers whenever you want. so 4gate is only an all in until you expand...

which makes sc2 a hard game imo

24 Probes at 10 minutes is not the same as 24 probes at 5 minutes.

It's an all-in if your failed attack puts you so far behind that you're forced to rely on your opponent's mistakes.


Yet if your opponent were to make a big enough mistake, you could still win. So how exactly is it "all-in"? The term is useless at describing SC2 in my opinion. Like other people said, its just a buzz word, sounds cool, doesn't really have any relevance to the game.

All-In does not mean that you either win or lose the game then and there. It doesn't in SC2, and it doesn't in Poker, where the term originates.

It's exactly what it says on the tin, you're putting the entire focus of your strategy into one attack. Just because you could fail horribly and still clamber back through some miracles does not change the fact that your intent was to end the game with that one attack.

By your definitions, being "All-In" in Poker is wrong, because your opponent could just fold, and the game keeps going for another 50 hands.

On September 11 2012 00:16 happyft wrote:
Why can't people just use the term, "semi all-in"? It's just like in poker when someone semi-bluffs at a flop with only an open ended straight draw -- it's not a true bluff, but it is a pretty strong bluff nonetheless.

Because All-In in Poker has no relation to your chances at winning or losing, or even if the game will end at that moment. You're All-In if you put all your chips in the middle, and that's it.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 5m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 739
BRAT_OK 96
UpATreeSC 80
MindelVK 49
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 5563
Sea 2518
Mini 646
Dewaltoss 167
Aegong 52
sSak 30
yabsab 19
Sacsri 19
Backho 18
Counter-Strike
fl0m6491
olofmeister3243
rGuardiaN82
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu362
Khaldor168
Other Games
tarik_tv39888
gofns13596
Grubby886
FrodaN801
Beastyqt632
ceh9385
shahzam248
Mew2King84
TKL 64
Trikslyr57
QueenE49
ZombieGrub45
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream1313
Other Games
BasetradeTV88
StarCraft 2
angryscii 43
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta29
• Reevou 5
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 3
• FirePhoenix2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21272
League of Legends
• Nemesis5420
• Jankos1688
• TFBlade1333
Other Games
• imaqtpie912
• Shiphtur311
• WagamamaTV147
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
5h 5m
GSL Code S
14h 35m
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 7h
GSL Code S
1d 14h
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
1d 15h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
[ Show More ]
SOOP
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Cheesadelphia
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.