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hey guys so this is something I would like to talk about. I have seen lots of complaining from terrans about the big maps GSL is doing like whirlwind (even though it's still super close to 50% off of the small sample size favoring terran slightly).
Now I don't have experience tvp so I am not going to really mention it and I can already know why a big map like that could be bad for terran just because protoss has warp in. My knowledge of this match up is minimal and will thus not comment on it very much.
I mainly want to look at tvz. I will read terrans say "whirlwind is to big and so bad for terran". I want to ask why. bl/corruptor/infestor isn't that good on big maps so that composition isn't a composition you are going to play vs much (and this is what I see terrans complain about the most is that composition). I am pretty sure most people would agree that, that composition is really good on smaller maps like daybreak, cloud kingdom, antiga, etc.
But on a big map like whirlwind it's not that great of a composition just because of how slow that army is. Drops are stronger because there is a lot more space to defend with and if you are going bl/corruptor/infestor you will just end up killing the zerg by just doing mass attacks around the deathball and if zerg commits to attacking terran then terran kills all of zergs base and with reinforcements from your produciton being rallied away from army you can do a full surround and kill the army or whatever.
Either way that composition is a lot weaker on a map like whirlwind then cloud kingdom/etc.
There is the larva for zerg. Yes zerg can instantly remax after losing an army, but that army still takes time (unless you are going pure zergling). Even when my whole army pops out it's not like it's instantly at the terrans base and so this feels fair to me. Terran makes production facilities and both have to make their units, they don't take seconds to complete.
So I don't know I would like to see why terrans say these big maps are bad. Both races will be expanding more, deathball for zerg isn't really that effective due to it being such a slow army. I remember when stephano said he went ultras instead of bl/corruptor/infestor zvt because it was so slow and insanely hard to deal with terrans who would mass drop and just go around the army (this was a few months ago and he wasn't even talking about big maps like whirlwind).
Anyway would like to see what you terrans think on this part of this blog.
Now for protoss. Most people would agree bigger maps are better for protoss in the since that as long as they have a pylon somewhere their reinforcements are instantly there unlike terran/zerg. For zvp on bigger maps like whirlwind I would say i have seen a couple of entertaining games on it compared to other maps where bl/corruptor/infestor vs colossi/stalker/archon/mothership is so strong that you have to do it.
On a big map like whirlwind it is an easier way for protosses to do harrassment and not have the zerg deathball knocking at the front door in 15 seconds (and vice versa). So you can do harrassment, a lot more of it on a map like whirlwind whether that be overlord drops, nydus or warp prisms.
It seems it makes zvp a bit more bearable to watch on a map like that then on maps like cloud kingdom and what not where it's just deathball vs deathball and if toss gets good vortex he wins and if zerg avoids it or neurals and gets vortex on toss army he wins. I feel these bigger maps gives zvp more potential to be fun to watch then what it is right now and from what I have seen on whirlwind it has shown.
I know in zvp its still deathball oriented even on whirlwind but idk just doesn't feel as bad as on a map like whirlwind.
I will note that I am using whirlwind as it's a big map that I have seen some good games on and I feel isn't as bad as some people are saying for certain races.
I have seen some incredible zvt's on atlantis spaceship but I just wanted to make whirlwind the map i am focusing on.
In generall I feel that big maps that don't have small chokes and more wide open like whirlwind/atlantis provide for way more entertaining games then a map like metropolis/daybreak where it's linear as monk says below and not wide or anything. They are easy for turtle games to happen where both players take half map and then duke it out where as on a map like whirlwind/atlantis that really isn't possible so to speak.
So would like to see some discusion from terran/toss users to this as well and hopefully can keep any balance complaint you want to make (whether true or false) out of it please! I'll be honest I am just curious why terrans hate it so much even though I don't feel they should, if anything I feel they should like it more because you don't face that dreaded tvz deathball bl/corruptor/infestor. I don't know much about tvp so again that is why I didn't really talk about that at all.
  
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United States8476 Posts
Yea, I completely agree with the spirit of this blog. The big defining factor of a huge, open, and square map, such as Whirlwind, is that it's viable to circumvent a broodlord/infestor deathball in order to go for counter attacks. On large, but more linear maps such as Daybreak and Metropolis, this just isn't viable. I feel the inability for counterattacks because of the linearity makes late game PvZ/TvZ on those maps harder than the mere fact that they're big.
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On August 06 2012 07:41 NrGmonk wrote:
Yea, I completely agree with the spirit of this blog. The big defining factor of a huge, open, and square map, such as Whirlwind, is that it's viable to circumvent a broodlord/infestor deathball in order to go for counter attacks. On large, but more linear maps such as Daybreak and Metropolis, this just isn't viable. I feel the inability for counterattacks because of the linearity makes late game PvZ/TvZ on those maps harder than the mere fact that they're big.
Hmmm I actually didn't think to word it like that. You are right those are the types of maps I am talking about. You can look at metropolis and you are right it's a big map but it's linear where as whirlwind is very different. Thanks for pointing that out as I should have worded it like that :D
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Gigantic maps are complete hell for Terran.
It takes forever to reinforce, at least with more open maps you can get gigantic concaves. As long as Terran wins decisively, Terran will come out ahead, if Terran trades evenly they are on the back foot due to slower unit production + rally time + slow unit movement overall.
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On August 06 2012 11:08 Zombo Joe wrote:
Gigantic maps are complete hell for Terran.
It takes forever to reinforce, at least with more open maps you can get gigantic concaves. As long as Terran wins decisively, Terran will come out ahead, if Terran trades evenly they are on the back foot due to slower unit production + rally time + slow unit movement overall.
Yes but you have to realize it's the same way for zerg. Our units don't automatically appear at your front gates they have to go across the map just as much, if anything this also helps with drop play when zergs army is out of position. Dropping is stronger on these bigger maps and again both sides have to remake units and have to run their way across the map.
I don't see how this disadvantages terran in tvz (tvp I can see the argument).
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United States533 Posts
I think on larger maps (in zvt at least), controlling expansions and economic opportunities of your opponent becomes a lot more important.If Zerg is allowed to expand freely and T just doesn't drop, or has ineffective attempts at drops then Zerg has a much easier time simply because they can expand faster and just attack as soon as terran moves out and trade, while constantly remaxxing. It becomes increasingly difficult for Terran to reinforce their attack. However, if terran harasses well and keeps their Zerg opponents expansions in check while securing his own, eventually the Zerg cannot trade so readily because resources become a factor. Same concept in ZvP to an extent. For the toss victory becomes much less about rolling over the Zerg in a straight up fight, and more based in the realm of keeping Zerg expansions under control with things like DTs, warp prisms etc.
As a Zerg my stance on what map type is easier to win on is obviously consistent with the popular opinion. I like bigger maps, the more expansions the better. That said, the times I struggle on larger maps are when I cannot expand as much as I want. I wont pretend larger maps are theoretically just as easy for P/T in Zerg matchups, I'm merely suggesting maybe it's less a question of difficulty and more a question of method. You have to adjust your strategy with every map in a unique way.
It's like the OP says about playing as Zerg on smaller more narrow maps BL/Infestor is much stronger. And on bigger maps it's less effective because of the movement speed of those units. Is that because BL/Infestor is more powerful than other options and playstyles for Zerg, or is it simply the most figured out late game we have, based on the style of maps we tend to play on. IE:Ohana, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Etc. In my mind its a question of strategy. I'd be interested to hear how Protoss and Terran spefically change how they play on larger maps against Zerg.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
One thing I think that sticks in Terran's minds is that certain "large" maps (Shakuras Plateau and Daybreak come to mind) have chokey centers where it's difficult for Terran to do battle with the BL/Infestor army. As long as larger maps are also wider at the same time, in TvZ and TvP, terran will be able to deal with the deathballs with concaves, drops, and counter-attacks.
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Terran has no abilities to increase mobility. Zerg gets creep, protoss gets warpin, terran gets nothing.
Most T abilities kill mobility, in honesty. PDD, Nuke, Tanks, and Stim are all limited by your opponent running away-PDD is limited area, nuke is limited area and ghost doesn't move, tanks don't move, and stim is essentially wasted if your opponent runs-and chasing after means medivacs don't get as much healing done, leading to weaker army and less chance of success. If you siege up too early and you get flanked or the bad gaiz run around you, you have to wait for the unsiege to try and catch up. If you have PDD or Nuke, they don't work if your opponent moves at all (unless you have Taeja's godly prediction powers).
On large maps, it gets easier to destroy the weaker, less mobile terran army because they need to force engagements in their chosen locations to get decisive battle wins
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EPT
