• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:25
CEST 23:25
KST 06:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles7[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China10Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL73
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Server Blocker RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone Script to open stream directly using middle click ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 Last Minute Live-Report Thread Resource!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5 Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 649 users

Pro Players Assistance in Stategy Forums Part 2

Blogs > MrMcIntosh
Post a Reply
MrMcIntosh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia91 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-19 08:35:56
July 19 2012 08:23 GMT
#1
Ok, another thought came to mind.

Whilst at a friends house, I was telling my friend about my previous blog post [Part 1 here], and he informed be that for some games there are websites where professional LoL players post their guides and advice. This is the website known as LoLPro

The spoiler explains the concept of character building in LoL; if you play LoL or know how it works, skip it :D
+ Show Spoiler +
For those of you who don't play League of Legends (and I highly recommend you do, because its awesome), you play as champions and there are items you can buy to improve stats in game. Different items give different stats, of course. And with these many items, you can customize your stats with trillions of different combinations.

And there are more efficient ways of building your character than others. Getting Rabadons before boots is highly inefficient, because you will need the early game movement boost before anything else, save your starting item.


This website offers you these advantageous build orders as you will which have been formulated by professional players who know what they're doing. And these guides are comprehensive, with explanations to every item decision, ability leveling guides and so on.

Why can't Starcraft be like this?

Thanks for reading.




**
If only Windows came with StarCraft 2 already installed...If only
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-19 08:29:55
July 19 2012 08:28 GMT
#2
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Main_Page

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=34

What you want seems to already exist. In LoL do the items you get ever depend on what you scout your opponent doing? I'd assume at a cetain point in the game they do. Similarly in sc2 even though a guide can encompass many situations, to be a good player you must be able to interpret information on your own at a certain point.

And I really don't see why top players would want to provide their opponents such deep insight into their build orders and decision making process anyway.
MrMcIntosh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia91 Posts
July 19 2012 08:32 GMT
#3
On July 19 2012 17:28 Jonoman92 wrote:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Main_Page

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=34

What you want seems to already exist.


Read my other entry, then you'll see where I'm coming from.

The point isn't that the strategy forums don't exist, but rather they don't have many credible people to offer their information. In an ideal world, there would be professional players giving us their insight into peoples problems, instead of a random gold leaguer who thinks he's got the game worked out.
If only Windows came with StarCraft 2 already installed...If only
schimmetje
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands1104 Posts
July 19 2012 09:29 GMT
#4
Well this has been discussed before, but every time a pro player interacts in a meaningful way with the forums in general someone will feel the need to shit on them. The strategy forum, while better these days, is still full of people who lack the pro perspective but also the willingness to accept that, so it's hard to get something meaningful across. Some still try though, I remember Sheth's guides helping me a lot back in the day, but generally there's just little incentive for them to do so and I'd wager a lot of them just follow the Tasteless approach to community sites these days, which is to just stay the hell away.

Besides that, the non-micro portion of SC2 progress isn't really something that's dependent on item picks, you have build orders but gaining the required mechanics and decision making skills is, I feel personally please for the love of glod don't turn this into one of THOSE discussions, much more of a long term process. This requires coaching which is incidently also where there's money to be made.
Change to MY nostalgia? UNACCEPTABLE! Monkey paaaw!
MrMcIntosh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia91 Posts
July 19 2012 09:40 GMT
#5
On July 19 2012 18:29 schimmetje wrote:
Well this has been discussed before, but every time a pro player interacts in a meaningful way with the forums in general someone will feel the need to shit on them.


The pro's should expect people to shit on them, some people are jealous of their success and others would rather watch the world burn. Shits gonna happen.

Odds are however that the pros hypothetically adding their own advice would never go back to the thread again. Or that's how I think it would happen.

Coaching is the closest thing the pros do to help the community, but I feel that's only because there's money to be made. I don't want Starcraft to become so commercialized. And a lot of the younger people who play this game (18 years and under) can't pay people online, because of the lack of credit cards available.
If only Windows came with StarCraft 2 already installed...If only
dicedicerevolution
Profile Joined October 2009
United States245 Posts
July 19 2012 10:52 GMT
#6
It's largely a waste of time for pros to comment on threads as they usually do not have the patience to explain every little detail to other [less informed] posters. There's also an issue of quality control; there's no way to really "screen people out" from giving bad advice, such as having players with poor game knowledge (but think otherwise) give articulate, logically consistent arguments that in actual application are wrong.

In the most recent Inside The Game (hosted by djWheat) a community member asked about this and the response is basically what I wrote above. The Q&A is towards the end of the broadcast.
MrMcIntosh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia91 Posts
July 19 2012 10:55 GMT
#7
On July 19 2012 19:52 dicedicerevolution wrote:
It's largely a waste of time for pros to comment on threads as they usually do not have the patience to explain every little detail to other [less informed] posters. There's also an issue of quality control; there's no way to really "screen people out" from giving bad advice, such as having players with poor game knowledge (but think otherwise) give articulate, logically consistent arguments that in actual application are wrong.

In the most recent Inside The Game (hosted by djWheat) a community member asked about this and the response is basically what I wrote above. The Q&A is towards the end of the broadcast.


I completely agree with what you've said, and thanks for the link to ITG I'll check it out
If only Windows came with StarCraft 2 already installed...If only
schimmetje
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands1104 Posts
July 19 2012 11:24 GMT
#8
On July 19 2012 18:40 MrMcIntosh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2012 18:29 schimmetje wrote:
Well this has been discussed before, but every time a pro player interacts in a meaningful way with the forums in general someone will feel the need to shit on them.


The pro's should expect people to shit on them, some people are jealous of their success and others would rather watch the world burn. Shits gonna happen.


Yeah but then shit like what you're asking for is also not going to happen. If the community wants something, the community should shape up.

As for the commercialization, well.. that's what you get when your pro-scene develops. There have been alternatives to one-on-one coaching, can't think of the sites off the top of my head but there's a few where pros show builds and things they use, but these come with memberships too.

On the upside, I guess it allows us to appreciate Liquipedia and the likes more right?
Change to MY nostalgia? UNACCEPTABLE! Monkey paaaw!
MrMcIntosh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia91 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-19 11:40:49
July 19 2012 11:39 GMT
#9
On July 19 2012 20:24 schimmetje wrote:
Yeah but then shit like what you're asking for is also not going to happen. If the community wants something, the community should shape up.


The point to this blog was to raise the awareness of these problems so the community see's something they want

On July 19 2012 20:24 schimmetje wrote:
On the upside, I guess it allows us to appreciate Liquipedia and the likes more right?


Liquipedia isn't regularly updated. If you check out the build orders they're horribly outdated.

But thanks for your opinion :D
If only Windows came with StarCraft 2 already installed...If only
Ghin
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States2391 Posts
July 19 2012 12:06 GMT
#10
They actually do post here. It's also mostly meaningless to the majority of starcraft players because they don't possess the necessary skills to capitalize on a professional's advice. Almost every time a pro posts in the strategy forum, ten idiots post disagreeing with it.
Legalize drugs and murder.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
July 19 2012 13:51 GMT
#11
TL (community? website? maybe a bit of both) really screwed the pooch on this one.

Some pros couldn't be asked to 'waste their time' on forums so every normal poster realized that there was very little useful in the strategy forum. Consequently, the only people posting there are people asking dull, generic questions that any joe can answer or the worst trolls who just don't care.

It doesn't matter whether you're running a thread or a senatorial campaign, the way to deal with shit is by drowning the shit with constructive posts, not recoiling at the slightest suggestion of shit.

You think the strategy is shit, pros? It should be; you made it that way.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
July 19 2012 13:54 GMT
#12
On July 19 2012 18:40 MrMcIntosh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2012 18:29 schimmetje wrote:
Well this has been discussed before, but every time a pro player interacts in a meaningful way with the forums in general someone will feel the need to shit on them.


The pro's should expect people to shit on them, some people are jealous of their success and others would rather watch the world burn. Shits gonna happen.

Odds are however that the pros hypothetically adding their own advice would never go back to the thread again. Or that's how I think it would happen.

Coaching is the closest thing the pros do to help the community, but I feel that's only because there's money to be made. I don't want Starcraft to become so commercialized. And a lot of the younger people who play this game (18 years and under) can't pay people online, because of the lack of credit cards available.


How do you think people learn tennis, football, basketball etc? They get coached or join a team, both of which usually cost money. If you want to be a pro tennis player you have to start at 5 years old and it costs a lot of money. The current model for coaching is precisely what this game needs, people outside of esports need to see that there are sustainable business models and parents need to see that their child getting coaching COULD one day lead to a career in esports.

Its not commercialization, its life. Everything you do costs money. Pro coaches should be paid for their time if only because its a service you simply can't get from anyone else, they are the experts in their field and should be paid accordingly.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
July 19 2012 14:01 GMT
#13
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255

If you think these threads are written by some random gold leaguers, you are deluded.
Official Entusman #21
Aro
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada36 Posts
July 19 2012 15:47 GMT
#14
Why do you feel that pros owe it to the community to post this kind of advice? I understand that they wouldn't be able to make a living without the community, but it goes both ways: the community would be diminished without pro players as well. As I see it, it takes no special skill to be part of the community, but it takes tremendous hard work and talent to reach the level that these pro players have. That disparity makes me think that it's the community that should be doing more to support the pros, and not the other way around.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
DaveTesta Events
18:00
Kirktown Ready Room #3
davetesta107
Liquipedia
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 1
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
ZZZero.O277
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 192
Livibee 67
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 277
HiyA 81
Dota 2
syndereN358
monkeys_forever293
Pyrionflax119
League of Legends
Grubby5175
Dendi1177
Counter-Strike
fl0m1933
Stewie2K857
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor469
Trikslyr58
Other Games
summit1g6627
mouzStarbuck310
ToD155
ViBE125
Sick75
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick54636
StarCraft 2
angryscii 38
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 215
• printf 49
• musti20045 23
• tFFMrPink 19
• OhrlRock 2
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21593
League of Legends
• Doublelift4204
• Jankos2609
Other Games
• imaqtpie2244
• Shiphtur463
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
12h 35m
RSL Revival
12h 35m
Classic vs Clem
FEL
17h 35m
Elazer vs Spirit
Gerald vs MaNa
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
20h 35m
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Wardi Open
1d 13h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
HSC XXVII
NC Random Cup

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.