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On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true.
Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?).
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On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?).
As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this.
People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true
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This thread was a....very interesting and engrossing read.
5/5 for the thread.
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On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true
Do you understand quantum mechanics?
Do you understand genetic studies?
Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud?
Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century?
Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school?
Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work?
Do you know the political story of your country?
Do you know the story of your country?
Can you name most of the influent persons of your country?
Do you know their past?
Can you see their motives?
Do you know your country's economical situation?
Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs?
... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on.
Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings.
I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same.
You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality.
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On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true Do you understand quantum mechanics? Do you understand genetic studies? Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud? Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century? Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school? Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work? Do you know the political story of your country? Do you know the story of your country? Can you name most of the influent persons of your country? Do you know their past? Can you see their motives? Do you know your country's economical situation? Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs? ... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on. Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings. I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same. You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality.
I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it.
Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity?
And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society.
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On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:
I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same.
No, because atheist won't come around and say ' I'm against gay marriage because something, that is not visible, nor in any kind of way provable, forbids it. '
Atheists won't necessarily be for gay marriage, but atleast you eliminate a point of discussion that is completely without substance and won't get anywhere.
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On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true Do you understand quantum mechanics? Do you understand genetic studies? Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud? Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century? Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school? Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work? Do you know the political story of your country? Do you know the story of your country? Can you name most of the influent persons of your country? Do you know their past? Can you see their motives? Do you know your country's economical situation? Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs? ... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on. Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings. I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same. You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality. I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it. Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity? And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society.
They aren't just essential for a functioning society. They are essential for the functioning of our species.
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On July 09 2012 23:16 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true Do you understand quantum mechanics? Do you understand genetic studies? Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud? Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century? Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school? Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work? Do you know the political story of your country? Do you know the story of your country? Can you name most of the influent persons of your country? Do you know their past? Can you see their motives? Do you know your country's economical situation? Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs? ... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on. Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings. I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same. You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality. I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it. Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity? And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society. They aren't just essential for a functioning society. They are essential for the functioning of our species.
It was obvious that somebody would give the wrongest of all possible replies. Our species does not depend on morals. Animals have no morals and they are doing fine. Morals are what divides us from animals, but we would no doubt survive without morals. Thus morals are not essential.
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"where one cannot love, one should pass by"
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On July 09 2012 23:21 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 23:16 Recognizable wrote:On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true Do you understand quantum mechanics? Do you understand genetic studies? Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud? Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century? Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school? Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work? Do you know the political story of your country? Do you know the story of your country? Can you name most of the influent persons of your country? Do you know their past? Can you see their motives? Do you know your country's economical situation? Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs? ... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on. Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings. I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same. You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality. I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it. Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity? And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society. They aren't just essential for a functioning society. They are essential for the functioning of our species. It was obvious that somebody would give the wrongest of all possible replies. Our species does not depend on morals. Animals have no morals and they are doing fine. Morals are what divides us from animals, but we would no doubt survive without morals. Thus morals are not essential.
I think he means that if we would all kill each other, we would be extinct pretty soon as a species.
on a sidenote: How would you know if animals don't have morals? I think most of our morals are basically instinct (are innate) and animals surely have that (not forgetting the fact that we are animals anyways). Just because all "animal morals" don't correspond with your own, doesn't mean they don't have any. Not that I know if they do
No, morals themselves are not essential, but the instincts (or whatever you wanna call those "innate morals") which they are based upon may very well be.
Also, you could argue that the survival of our species at this stage could depend on a functioning society.
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On July 09 2012 23:21 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 23:16 Recognizable wrote:On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true Do you understand quantum mechanics? Do you understand genetic studies? Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud? Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century? Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school? Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work? Do you know the political story of your country? Do you know the story of your country? Can you name most of the influent persons of your country? Do you know their past? Can you see their motives? Do you know your country's economical situation? Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs? ... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on. Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings. I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same. You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality. I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it. Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity? And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society. They aren't just essential for a functioning society. They are essential for the functioning of our species. It was obvious that somebody would give the wrongest of all possible replies. Our species does not depend on morals. Animals have no morals and they are doing fine. Morals are what divides us from animals, but we would no doubt survive without morals. Thus morals are not essential.
We don't kill eachother off because it hurts our chances of reproduction in various ways.
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On July 09 2012 23:57 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 23:21 Xiron wrote:On July 09 2012 23:16 Recognizable wrote:On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true Do you understand quantum mechanics? Do you understand genetic studies? Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud? Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century? Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school? Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work? Do you know the political story of your country? Do you know the story of your country? Can you name most of the influent persons of your country? Do you know their past? Can you see their motives? Do you know your country's economical situation? Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs? ... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on. Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings. I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same. You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality. I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it. Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity? And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society. They aren't just essential for a functioning society. They are essential for the functioning of our species. It was obvious that somebody would give the wrongest of all possible replies. Our species does not depend on morals. Animals have no morals and they are doing fine. Morals are what divides us from animals, but we would no doubt survive without morals. Thus morals are not essential. We don't kill eachother off because it hurts our chances of reproduction in various ways.
I highly doubt that's the only reason.
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On July 10 2012 00:02 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 23:57 Recognizable wrote:On July 09 2012 23:21 Xiron wrote:On July 09 2012 23:16 Recognizable wrote:On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true Do you understand quantum mechanics? Do you understand genetic studies? Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud? Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century? Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school? Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work? Do you know the political story of your country? Do you know the story of your country? Can you name most of the influent persons of your country? Do you know their past? Can you see their motives? Do you know your country's economical situation? Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs? ... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on. Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings. I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same. You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality. I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it. Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity? And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society. They aren't just essential for a functioning society. They are essential for the functioning of our species. It was obvious that somebody would give the wrongest of all possible replies. Our species does not depend on morals. Animals have no morals and they are doing fine. Morals are what divides us from animals, but we would no doubt survive without morals. Thus morals are not essential. We don't kill eachother off because it hurts our chances of reproduction in various ways. I highly doubt that's the only reason.
God sends us to hell for it after we die. That's a much better reason, ain't it?
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This is Bogus, Flash ain't dead!
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On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:
I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it.
Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity?
Exactly. You're just believing things that you've been thaught without questioning them.
Do you believe in gay marriage? Then why don't you believe in sister and brother marriage? In father and daughter relationships? In ephebophilia? Everything can be argued, morality is not logically built but is based on absolute "wrongs" (that do in turn constitute taboos, true), being a result of both necessity and contigency.
Maybe you feel "illuminated" after finding out that thunders are not signs that God is angry, but being the smart kid on the short bus does not give you the right the look at others with contempt. What would you say to christian scientists and scholars? Do you truly believe that you are essentially better than them in the intellectual field?
On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:
And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society.
Of course, that wasn't my point at all. My point is that this is our heritage. To understand it, is to understand ourselves.
On July 09 2012 23:00 Xiron wrote:
No, because atheist won't come around and say ' I'm against gay marriage because something, that is not visible, nor in any kind of way provable, forbids it. '
Atheists won't necessarily be for gay marriage, but atleast you eliminate a point of discussion that is completely without substance and won't get anywhere.
Atheists will use all kinds of moronic arguments, because this is how the brain is structured. Our survival has always depended on our capacity to make quick judgements and decisions, no matter how many generalizations, fallacious reasonings and erratic systems we use.
See above, "Then why don't you believe in sister and brother marriage? In father and daughter relationships? In ephebophilia?". If we legalize gay marriage, it's not because it's an absolutely good thing, it's because our traditions evolved. Gay marriage is good but incest is still wrong; why?
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On July 10 2012 01:35 Kukaracha wrote:
Atheists will use all kinds of moronic arguments, because this is how the brain is structured. Our survival has always depended on our capacity to make quick judgements and decisions, no matter how many generalizations, fallacious reasonings and erratic systems we use.
See above, "Then why don't you believe in sister and brother marriage? In father and daughter relationships? In ephebophilia?". If we legalize gay marriage, it's not because it's an absolutely good thing, it's because our traditions evolved. Gay marriage is good but incest is still wrong; why?
Every argument an atheist will bring up can be argued against. Yet you can't argue against something that does not exist for 99% of people. What if there were 100mio people in America claiming 'The spaghetti monster told us to forbid standard marriage, but we can't show you any proof besides a book drunken men wrote 2000 years ago'? Does that give them the right to deny someone marriage? No, but you can't possibly argue with them!
Now if an atheist comes up and says 'It deminishes the amount of kids annually born by 10%!' Then you can find something that disproofs this and you can continue the discussion.
On a sidenote: Did I ever say incest is wrong? It happens all the time between animals.
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On July 10 2012 03:15 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 01:35 Kukaracha wrote:
Atheists will use all kinds of moronic arguments, because this is how the brain is structured. Our survival has always depended on our capacity to make quick judgements and decisions, no matter how many generalizations, fallacious reasonings and erratic systems we use.
See above, "Then why don't you believe in sister and brother marriage? In father and daughter relationships? In ephebophilia?". If we legalize gay marriage, it's not because it's an absolutely good thing, it's because our traditions evolved. Gay marriage is good but incest is still wrong; why?
Every argument an atheist will bring up can be argued against. Yet you can't argue against something that does not exist for 99% of people. What if there were 100mio people in America claiming 'The spaghetti monster told us to forbid standard marriage, but we can't show you any proof besides a book drunken men wrote 2000 years ago'? Does that give them the right to deny someone marriage? No, but you can't possibly argue with them! Now if an atheist comes up and says 'It deminishes the amount of kids annually born by 10%!' Then you can find something that disproofs this and you can continue the discussion. On a sidenote: Did I ever say incest is wrong? It happens all the time between animals.
No one here is arguing in favor of religious justifications of socially conservative policies, in fact I can guarantee you Kukaracha is just as critical of the anti-gay marriage camp as you are. The problem here is that you are creating your own personal conception of the typical Christian and then judging said conception without any acknowledgement of the incredible variance in belief among Christians or any religious group for that matter. It might seem natural and logical to assert a certain sort of understanding before such an assertion is truly reasonable, a dynamic made ever worse by the "unlimited" yet ultimately temporal access to information via the internet. For every ignorant, bible-thumping evangelical Christian your mind conjures up there are devout Catholics who care little for the politicization of their beliefs and extremely religious lesbian Episcopal ministers. Avoid the temptation to think in absolution or totality whenever possible, only then can one truly be open to the world around them.
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On July 10 2012 00:21 MaGariShun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 00:02 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On July 09 2012 23:57 Recognizable wrote:On July 09 2012 23:21 Xiron wrote:On July 09 2012 23:16 Recognizable wrote:On July 09 2012 21:41 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 21:09 Kukaracha wrote:On July 09 2012 13:54 MaGariShun wrote:On July 09 2012 13:48 farvacola wrote:On July 09 2012 13:36 MaGariShun wrote:
In the end, all religion is BS. I used to be moderate and stuff, but really, if you believe in this crap, I can't take you serious.
The whole atheism/theism discussion is moot, there is no argument I know of for the existence of god other than "it's in the bible - and the bible is true because god wants it so", or "because I just know it". No atheist can say with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but then again, that holds true for anything and that doesn't automatically mean everything exists.
The fact that there exist hundreds of religions, all claiming to be the single true one, should ring a bell.
There is a reason people stick to scientific method: It works. Religion does not work. It may give you "comfort", but you can't deduce how to construct a computer to play starcraft on off it. In fact, you can't reliably deduce anything worthwhile from it.
The T-shirt just shows it: If you believe most of this shit, you probably don't understand much at all.
Up to this day I haven't met a single christian who could even remotely convince me that any of this stuff was true. I believe that it "helps" them and "gives them comfort", but that does not make it true. Every single thing you've said is meaningless and sounds reminiscent of a high school science club speech by the newly declared atheist student president. Meet some more people, read some more books, and learn to open your mind. The world owes you nothing but a chance for dialogue, and you'd do well to listen as well as talk (and read the thread maybe?). As I said, I used to think a bit more moderate (like you apparently) about this matter, but as time got on, I just realized more and more how stupid it all was. Of course my post was pretty superficial, because I don't really care to go in depth about this. People can believe what they want, I don't care, but please don't base educational and political decisions on it when you have no evidence that it is actually true Do you understand quantum mechanics? Do you understand genetic studies? Do you understand Jung and Adler's seperation with Freud? Do you understand the evolution of art in the past century? Do you understand the keypoint differences between keynesians and the Austrian school? Do you understand the concept of "misery" in Pascal's work? Do you know the political story of your country? Do you know the story of your country? Can you name most of the influent persons of your country? Do you know their past? Can you see their motives? Do you know your country's economical situation? Are you aware of your country's foreign affairs? ... no? Then you're a regular person, like everyone, and you vote, make decisions and go through life without having a single clue of what's going on. Have you ever heard of the confirmation bias? Hindsight bias? Normalcy bias? The Dunning-Kruger effect? The third-person effect? They are fundamental shortcuts that the mind will always take, and that make us essentially irrational beings. I would say that the "last" step in this field is to realize that christians and atheists are just the same. You can also say that it is stupid, but western countries have tied their lives with christianity, and it is as such a great part of our history and morality. I don't get your point... seriously, I don't get it. Are you trying to say that me "believing" those things without actually having researched and fully understood them is the same as believing in christianity? And please don't give me the "morality comes from christianity" crap. Maybe certain specific moral values do (e.g. monogamy), but then again, if christianity didn't exist, we would not have these values and thus wouldn't see the lack of them as "bad". Basic moral principles like "don't kill", don't steal" etc. exist in other non-christian cultures too, because they are essential for a functioning society. They aren't just essential for a functioning society. They are essential for the functioning of our species. It was obvious that somebody would give the wrongest of all possible replies. Our species does not depend on morals. Animals have no morals and they are doing fine. Morals are what divides us from animals, but we would no doubt survive without morals. Thus morals are not essential. We don't kill eachother off because it hurts our chances of reproduction in various ways. I highly doubt that's the only reason. God sends us to hell for it after we die. That's a much better reason, ain't it?
Nope. People love oversimplifying that which they don't understand. Accepting things as complex is overrated.
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I think it's far more offensive that he's arguing all human beings are irrational to be honest. Saying things like "morality is not logically built" ... I don't agree with that statement, and I don't believe he can prove it, but many of his assertions rely upon it. It is one of those mistakes people who are bad at constructing arguments consistently commit. They will say things like "let's be honest" or "such and such is nature" or some other bold and broad claim that they can't support other than what might be popular belief. It is one of those reasons it is good not to argue on the internet, because there is no end to these kinds of statements and no way to reprimand the users that make them.
I'm not analysing the quality of Xiron's posts here because I haven't really read them, but just in Kukaracha's I see too much of this. It might sound cool to say "human beings are irrational" and to level the playing field, but basically fuck you lol. There are many human beings very capable of understanding the limitations of their knowledge. Do they sometimes have to make decisions on not ideal knowledge? Sure. Does that mean they don't know the knowledge is not ideal? If they do, how is that irrational? I'm sure not every cave man thought thunder had to be from the Gods, or was satisfied with such a stupid conclusion. I'm sure some were able to say "I don't know" when asked meaningless questions. And then others would make everyone dance to please the rain god lol. Or worse, sacrifice a goat or person because some god must be upset and causing a severe drought. I'm sure plenty of people in societies like that thought it was ridiculous, but people with knives are scary and people telling stories around the fire are harmless and entertaining.
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EPT
