EPTThe State Of Shoutcasting In SC2 - Page 2
| Blogs > SinistarLives |
|
Imperium11
United States279 Posts
| ||
|
mierin
United States4943 Posts
| ||
|
Cydearrm
United States58 Posts
"Traditional" sporting events prominently feature instant replays, which allow more time for analysis, which hasn't happened much in Starcraft 2. NASL is experimenting a bit with it, with mixed results, IMO, but most other casts I've watched haven't used that. Maybe that's an area where casting/production can improve, but asking for in-depth, on-the-fly analysis is kind of silly IMO. | ||
|
Druuseph
United States6 Posts
To be completely frank there's just too many damn tournaments and I would argue that it would be a good thing if one or two of them merged or completely disappeared. Every single one of them is trying to be the major leagues with top talent and top viewership. Given that it's fully expected and assumed that a marquee name casting. If IPL were not to get Tasteless and Artosis or Day9 viewers would be vocal about it, it doesn't make sense to not invite them. This should solve itself in time because having so many leagues is unsustainable long term. When it does settle I do think you will see more casters introduced into the scene because there will finally be a demand for 'minor leagues' where the viewer expectation is not set as high. Right now, however, there's just so much 'major league' content that is all competing for views that no one is in a comfortable enough position to take that risk on unknown guys. Sure, you have things like Playhem and ESV Korean Dailies which new names can dip their toes in but very seldom does a chance come for that new talent to break into the majors because if it goes wrong they are going to lose ground to the competition. | ||
|
SinistarLives
United States19 Posts
On June 13 2012 08:02 Druuseph wrote: While I agree wholeheartedly that we need to get new blood in the scene the problem is that the amount of competing tournaments creates a huge incentive to stick with what works. You have the MLG, NASL, IPL and Dreamhack all competing for views and indirectly competing with the GSL (I say indirectly because of timezone differences. A lot of foreigner viewership of GSL is through VODs). To be completely frank there's just too many damn tournaments and I would argue that it would be a good thing if one or two of them merged or completely disappeared. Every single one of them is trying to be the major leagues with top talent and top viewership. Given that it's fully expected and assumed that a marquee name casting. If IPL were not to get Tasteless and Artosis or Day9 viewers would be vocal about it, it doesn't make sense to not invite them. This should solve itself in time because having so many leagues is unsustainable long term. When it does settle I do think you will see more casters introduced into the scene because there will finally be a demand for 'minor leagues' where the viewer expectation is not set as high. Right now, however, there's just so much 'major league' content that is all competing for views that no one is in a comfortable enough position to take that risk on unknown guys. Sure, you have things like Playhem and ESV Korean Dailies which new names can dip their toes in but very seldom does a chance come for that new talent to break into the majors because if it goes wrong they are going to lose ground to the competition. I agree with the general sentiment of "too many tournaments". I think the reason all the various leagues are apparently competing to get the "top casters" ala Day9/Tastosis etc is that they think they need to to draw a larger audience (possibly true) or that they need them to be taken seriously as a league (definitely not true). I think we all know that not even Day9 can save your league if your production is shit, your players are unknowns, and your format sucks, so it would be logical to think that your league can still be popular/relevant w/o a big name caster. To repeat one of my earlier points, I feel that leagues need to grow a spine and try new things (Specifically in regards to their casters, but also more broadly) and let people show up. Dreamhack has drawn a lot of popularity (w/o Tastosis or Day9) in part thanks to their innovations in production (graphics, venue layout). No one knew who Pomf and Thud were at Iron Squid but most of us watched because it was such an interesting event. | ||
|
SinistarLives
United States19 Posts
On June 13 2012 07:42 Cydearrm wrote: Every "traditional" sport I've ever watched with any sort of regularity featured "dumbed down" casting (ever hear John Madden's commentary?) and extra shows with in-depth analysis. Using the NFL as an example, on Sunday Mornings (and various times during the week), Ron Jaworski, a former pro Quarterback, would break down the Xs and Os in an in-depth fashion during a dedicated show. The SC2 comparison to this show would be a non Newbie Tuesday/Funday Monday Day9 Daily. "Traditional" sporting events prominently feature instant replays, which allow more time for analysis, which hasn't happened much in Starcraft 2. NASL is experimenting a bit with it, with mixed results, IMO, but most other casts I've watched haven't used that. Maybe that's an area where casting/production can improve, but asking for in-depth, on-the-fly analysis is kind of silly IMO. To be honest, I feel John Madden deserves a pass due to his celebrity/past accomplishments. I agree his commentary is uninspired and boring but I love him as a 'character' in the scene and find his personal story powerful. I feel the same way about a certain GSL caster.  The better question isn't 'do other sports do it this way' -- its 'do they do it this way because its the best way to do things'. | ||
|
SinistarLives
United States19 Posts
On June 13 2012 05:33 Vindicare605 wrote: The problem is a little more complicated than that. Caster's have their own fanbases right now. Having Tasteless and Artosis cast your tournament will draw viewers in that otherwise wouldn't bother watching your tournament just because they are the ones casting it. Do you think would it be fair to say that people who will only watch your tournament if Tastosis is casting it are actually 'Tastosis fans', not 'esports fans'? EDIT: Thanks for all the nice feedback so far guys | ||
|
SinistarLives
United States19 Posts
On June 13 2012 06:38 Angel_ wrote: I want to bold, underline, and make big the part where you related to "Hey, casters, it's not your job to criticize." I also want to add, I think it's really important as a general caster tip to try to remember and keep yourself in the frame of mind that what YOU see is not necessarily what the person saw. You have god vision, they don't. There's a lot of "OH HE SHOULDN'T BE PUSHING fajsasdlfsjdklfkbuttshitttt" but if you look from the players perspective and realize "o hey he has no idea about those colossi, and actually if there were no colossi this would be a great idea" you could sound a lot more accurate, insightful, AND make both yourself and the player not look like shit, especially when that's obviously what's happened. And then if you still feel the need to be judgemental you can go on and on about how the player should have scouted better, and elaborate to how a lot of players still scout terribly, and i can continue to be sad at you for being too judgemental. ---- EDIT: and it would help for fans to remember when something is obviously being done because the event told the casters to. for example, some mlgs get shit for not having the most high-level commentary (i'm not talking about having the wrong casters that don't know shit clearly), or for "directing the casting too much at stuff everybody knows", when clearly it's just to target a lower common denominator, or try to bring in new people. w/r/t to your edit, that is an interesting point. It hadn't occured to me that the 'dumbing down' effect might be due to pressure from the higher ups rather than a conscious caster decision. Do you really think that is the case? Why do leagues think this what we (the paying audience) want? edit: sorry for quad-post  | ||
|
Cydearrm
United States58 Posts
On June 13 2012 11:12 SinistarLives wrote: To be honest, I feel John Madden deserves a pass due to his celebrity/past accomplishments. I agree his commentary is uninspired and boring but I love him as a 'character' in the scene and find his personal story powerful. I feel the same way about a certain GSL caster. The better question isn't 'do other sports do it this way' -- its 'do they do it this way because its the best way to do things'. Considering that professional sports have been televised for over half a century, I would assume that it is, indeed, the best way to do things. We've established that solo casting is too hard on the caster, and I've seen experiments with three-man teams that didn't pan out (Monday Night Football several years ago comes immediately to mind). MLG had the beginnings of a good idea with the "analyst desk," but they flubbed the execution in Anaheim with the two-sentence remarks before throwing it back. Also, If we (I, you, whomever) want "esports" to become mainstream, it's going to have to share similarities, particularly in production, as "traditional" sports. MLG scores points with this; the very brand and logo are reminiscent of professional sports leagues, and the casters looked like casters in the suits and ties. | ||
|
SinistarLives
United States19 Posts
On June 13 2012 11:53 Cydearrm wrote: Considering that professional sports have been televised for over half a century, I would assume that it is, indeed, the best way to do things. We've established that solo casting is too hard on the caster, and I've seen experiments with three-man teams that didn't pan out (Monday Night Football several years ago comes immediately to mind). MLG had the beginnings of a good idea with the "analyst desk," but they flubbed the execution in Anaheim with the two-sentence remarks before throwing it back. Also, If we (I, you, whomever) want "esports" to become mainstream, it's going to have to share similarities, particularly in production, as "traditional" sports. MLG scores points with this; the very brand and logo are reminiscent of professional sports leagues, and the casters looked like casters in the suits and ties. I could not disagree with you more strongly. | ||
|
VisonKai
United States2203 Posts
Another thing that is good is about new blood. Day9 is great, Husky is good, and although I'm not the biggest Tastosis fan they're still plenty good enough. The thing is, the majority of the time they end up the same. Tastosis definitely has a style, K9 (Husky + Day, if you didn't know) is only slightly different, and then every other casting archon is almost, but not quite, the same. I love DJWheat because a lot of his casting is so unique (possibly because he's pretty much THE original caster. I don't think anyone in the modern scene besides Nick has anywhere near a comparable level of experience) despite how much a lot of people seem to not like him. New blood fixes a lot of that. Each casting archon is a bit different. Sheth/Day9 was so, so amazing during Red Bull Battlegrounds, it felt like a breath of fresh air. Day9/Husky is a lot of play-by-play, with Husky asking a lot of questions (hey, a way to work around talking down to the hardcores while helping the casuals!). I could go on and on about these slight changes that don't EXACTLY feel like Tastosis. I think with enough new people, those differences could be exaggerated (ex-pros are good for this, I think, since they aren't like a few particular casters with no knowledge of the game, obviously.) | ||
|
SirGoodMood
United States18 Posts
I was hoping that there would be a discussion about how we can help up and coming casters gain some popularity and visibility, but I find that a lot of people are still stuck in talking about what the pros do. Tasteless and Artosis, Day[9] and Husky, they are really high standards set for casters. It's kinda difficult as a starting caster, I feel that too often, we're compared against professional casters. Even at the MLG, with a whole host of some of the most well known casters, I'd frequently found a very vocal group complaining about some of the 'smaller' casters compared to the Tastosis archon. Why would you go and browse Youtube for a bunch of no-name casters who are just starting out, when you know that there are VODs of already established casters? I haven't been able to find a large and active community that supports amateur casting and provides a venue for them to improve and work together. The subreddit r/Castit isn't that large, and without having a that big established figure or voice calling for people to take up and support casting, it's difficult. I feel that it's going to quickly become a stagnant field, where amateur casters only gain popularity among other fellow amateur casters, but the general community at large is more than happy to simply disregard it. And if it does try to come into the spotlight, it's quickly shouted at and boo-ed because it's not as exciting as Husky, or not as in-depth as Artosis. Just some thoughts from one of those small time casters trying to get their name out. | ||
|
Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
- Don't expect every caster to have the knowledge of Artosis and the energy of TotalBiscuit at the same time - Don't expect every caster to cast exactly the way you want because, well, there are other people out there that enjoy a different style - Don't expect casters to listen to your feedback if you are condescending instead of constructive - Don't expect casters to watch and remember every single tournament game because that is g****mn impossible in a 24h day and most casters don't earn their living with casting, they have other fulltime jobs. - Don't expect casters to stop having a unique personality and style (casting/clothing/etc.), tournaments decide which style they want and they will hire casters that fit the style. Different tournaments have different styles (GSL/MLG vs HSC). - Don't expect casters (especially new ones) to be willing to continue casting if all he hears is how bad he is. - Don't expect casters to notice everything on the minimap if they have to control the camera themselves. Just because you as a "lazy viewer" have time to watch it constantly doesn't mean they have. - Don't expect tournaments to always feature your favourite caster Casting is a d*mn hard thing and we should welcome anyone who tries, especially but not exclusively if he does something differently. If he prefers to dress in jeans and t-shirt then let him, it's his style, part of the whole "caster product" he sells, if you don't like it, don't watch him. If that "product" doesn't fit the tournament, for example the GSL, then he won't get hired. I watch casting for entertainment, which is why i think TotalBiscuit is the best caster in the world atm (especially but not neccessarily if paired with dApollo). If a caster manages to entertain me, i don't care about anything else. If he doesn't, well, i don't watch him but i know that there are always others who enjoy his style so there is no need to say he's bad just because I don't like his style. If a tournament notices that a caster doesn't get watched a lot (i.e. lower viewers/vod views), then, well, they don't hire him again and i don't have to bother with it. No need to email the sponsors. What i agree with: Trying things differently is good, i would for example love to see more casting trios. I know there was Tastosis&Day9 a year or so ago on a blizzcon but that wasn't exactly a perfect combination. On June 13 2012 17:15 SirGoodMood wrote: Just a question, are any of the people who've posted currently small time casters? I tried casting, had about 100 casted games (about 50/50 english/german) on my youtube channel... and 7 subscribers and a grand total of 3 video comments over all videos. Then i gave up. | ||
|
Nallen
United Kingdom134 Posts
| ||
|
Robin_thewonder
154 Posts
Ill keep reading through, always nice to see the community talking about small time casters. It's a hard road to climb, and it's great to see people are thinking about us all. =) | ||
|
Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On June 13 2012 11:24 SinistarLives wrote: w/r/t to your edit, that is an interesting point. It hadn't occured to me that the 'dumbing down' effect might be due to pressure from the higher ups rather than a conscious caster decision. Do you really think that is the case? Why do leagues think this what we (the paying audience) want? edit: sorry for quad-post I know that specific casters like Day9 have continuously modelled their image around the idea of trying to always appeal to the lowest common denominator (i know that sounds like a bad phrase). Specifically if you looked at Anaheim, there was a lot of obvious hype things that was probably some caster oh god fanboyism, but honestly probably a lot "hey guys these are the kespa players you need to make them look like gods. that's your job today." If you watched the battle reports with rob and day9 it was obvious that it was entirely centered on showcasing the hots units, and done in a very very again, common denominator way. Everything was very, "And the widow mine does not require a tech lab, meaning that if you make them from a factory, you can add a ractor two it, which allows you to make two units at a time for simple units, and make two widow mines at a time from it at a time." Which isn't a bad thing at all, and that specifically was about hots and it makes sense that they'd especially want to cater EVERYONE, even people that know know a lot about starcraft 2. At MLG specifically I think they do do that on purpose though, primarily because it's a mixed event and you never know when you're going to have some fps or fighting game or lol community person watching that may or may not want to get into the game. Casters have talked about if sc2 wanted to ever be on anything like espn, or pick up people that don't know much of anything about rts gaming, it'd be very important to make sure to communicate it on a level where everyone can find it easy to understand, and again, at really mixed events like mlgs, it'd be sort of silly not to, and it's evident. | ||
|
SirGoodMood
United States18 Posts
I feel that as a community, there definitely is a lot of fan-boyism going on at many of the major events. And yes, there are casters that some people like and others don't. I believe that Tasteless and Artosis are really the highest you can get to in terms of being enjoyed by everyone, but then again, they've been established for many years and it's possible that people have just gotten used to it. Not to mention, their personalities and experience most definitely give them an edge when comparing them to some of the other casters in Europe or North America. But like it's been said here, there's really no way to please everyone, and we shouldn't be striving to please everyone, because ultimately, that's impossible. With such a vocal community like Starcraft, I'm sure there are people out there who dislike Tasteless and Artosis. I like the various choices we have casters, some are analytical, some are exciting and so on, but I also think that we should try to get away from that "Play by play" versus "In-depth" caster paradigm. It's tried and true, and it works, but it relies heavily on the chemistry between the two casters, something that's pretty difficult to achieve consistently. Tastless and Artosis are perfect since they've worked so long with each other, but there have been many flops (Gretorp and Orb, anyone?). What I'm most worried about is that eventually the pool of casters will settle down in just a handful of the casting giants. Day[9], Husky, Khaldor, TotalBiscuit, etc., and that'll be it. I'm currently trying to get started on my own casting, but it's not easy. Resources are few and far between and a lot of the times, I end up finding youtube channels of similar casters who once aspired to be great, only to find out that their latest video was 8 months old. A couple of "great casts!" and "good job!" comments on the videos, but not much more. I kinda feel like we need to have some form of a 'support group' if you will for casters, just like we have for players. If you're in Bronze or Silver, you can take lessons, watch youtube tutorials, read up on guides, interact with an incredible community like Team Liquid and r/Starcraft. But there's nothing like that for casters. At most, there's a small group of people who cheer each other on, but don't really get anything constructive happening. I know that it ultimately falls upon the caster him/herself to dig deep and get that motivation, to just force yourself to cast games when you don't want to. To cast those long difficult games because you know that you need to work on your casting endurance. But it's really hard when the landscape seems so barren. Most of my casting friends, I've met on r/Castit, and they're all small time casters just struggling along like me. Just a couple of thoughts, apologies for going on so long about it. | ||
|
dereksmifz
United States64 Posts
Step 1. Cast a few hundred games and record the VoDs for my own personal review. If I feel they are good enough, I'll post on youtube. Step 2. Consistently upload some casted games to my YouTube channel. Step 3. Reach out to smaller tournaments to ask if they need casters, provide them my YouTube channel for review. Step 4. Begin casting smaller tournaments with an attempt to find a "steady" gig From there, I'll keep casting for my channel as well as casting at my "steady" gig with more and more as time allows. I'll also be streaming on my own time and playing as well as commentating and maybe hosting a show. This thread has been awesome and really encouraging for someone interested in casting this "late in the game" | ||
|
SirGoodMood
United States18 Posts
On June 14 2012 22:54 dereksmifz wrote: In my opinion, youtube casts are NOT the way to get noticed.. They are a way to get your material online to get potential "employers" (not saying you'll get paid) to check you out. I'm about to start casting, and this is my plan for myself. Okay, that's is pretty cool. I'd actually never thought of it that way. I guess since I saw Husky and HD rise to fame by just making Youtube videos, I'd do the same. You know the whole, "Do what the pros do" kind of mentality. Just that sentence has inspired me to start finding different ways to get noticed in the community. Thanks for the little boost!  | ||
| ||
