• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:31
CEST 09:31
KST 16:31
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO8 - Group A Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 27493 users

Starcraft etiquette makes no sense

Blogs > pirsq
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
pirsq
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia145 Posts
May 12 2012 01:43 GMT
#1
I've never understood Starcraft etiquette. I like to think I have a strategy gamer's mindset, having played strategy games, some competitively, my whole life, but the things that are considered polite or impolite just don't make any sense to me.

The salutation
Apparently, it's well-mannered to start off your game wishing your opponent luck. I understand it's polite to greet your opponent. It makes sense that one might say "nice to meet you" or "nice seeing you again". If you want to acknowledge your opponent without typing so much, we have a word for that: "hi". But wishing them luck? Why would you do that?

Firstly, it doesn't really make sense, because the game mechanics are essentially deterministic. Build order losses exist, but they're not random, they're predetermined. Secondly, even if you interpret "luck" as the uncertainty regarding imperfect information, then you are wishing for your opponent to gain an advantage from that imperfect information. That is, you're saying "I hope you blind counter what I'm going to do". WTF?

The resignation
The loser is supposed to resign the game by proclaiming that it was a good game. That seems completely self-congratulatory to me. Your opponent won, so there's no question that he played well; by proclaiming a good game you're saying "you win, but I played well enough to make it a good game". And what if you didn't play well? Most of my losses come from playing poorly. Why would I want to proclaim it was a good game in full knowledge of the fact that it wasn't a good game? If anything, I'd say "sorry for playing badly, that wasn't a good game".

Besides, explicit resignation isn't necessary when the interface already allows for resignation. For example, in Go, you resign a game by grabbing multiple stones and placing them in a pile on the board, a blatantly illegal non-move that signifies your desire to end the game in defeat. In a tournament, I'll often take that option if I don't wish to speak due to disappointment in my own performance. Similarly, Starcraft allows you to exit the game in defeat. Why is that option considered rude?

The victory claim
It is considered rude for the winner to declare a good game before the loser does. This makes some sense, since resignation is the loser's prerogative. But following on from my point above, the sentiment expressed here seems to be a positive one - by saying "GG", the winner says "you've lost, but it was a good game", which I'd consider much more polite than "I've lost, but it was a good game". I understand how this would be unacceptable in a tournament, but in a casual rated game (ie. ladder), is it really so bad?

On the other hand, when the winner declares good game before it's fully decided, that's just bad judgement. When I'm on the receiving end of such a comment, I typically feel somewhat pleased. Using your opponent's overconfidence against him is a very useful strategy in imperfect-information games, and I'm more than happy to take that opportunity if he offers.

The victory dance
An acceptably polite alternative to the victory claim, players often sacrifice their own resources in an attempt to demonstrate their victory. I don't see it much in my own games, but Korean professional players love to do this. But why would you want to? You just spent the last week preparing for this match, practicing your defence against all sorts of unexpected situations to maximise your advantage in the safest way possible. Why would you then go and throw it away, increasing your opponent's chances of coming back? It happens occasionally, and in an emotional moment, your judgement could be impaired. Why would you want to risk losing a game you had in the bag? If I were a coach, I'd smack my players on the head for doing this.

The post-game rage
This one is the most inexplicable of all. I can understand being angry with yourself for losing. If I stretch my imagination to when I was 5 years old and couldn't control my temper, I can sort of understand being angry with your opponent for beating you. What I don't understand is why people universally seem to accuse their opponents of being bad players. How does it make any sense to accuse someone who just beat you of being bad? Doesn't that just make you an even worse player?

**
kerpal
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom2695 Posts
May 12 2012 02:02 GMT
#2
That's a fairly amusing way of looking at it.

To nit-pick, everyone hates 'unlucky' loses, so by gl i normally mean 'don't lose because you accidentally misclicked and built a second infestation pit instead of a ultra cavern (fml i do that so much)

Also, 'victory dance' is a demonstration that you're so much better that you could beat them without all the extra money, I don't remember ever seeing a pro get it wrong and lose despite it. It's showmanship and entertainment.

Perhaps some lovely person could post the pylon heart vod? that was hilarious.

Obviously post-game rage at your opponent is silly, but i don't think people do it because they think logically and come to the conclusion that the correct response at this point is to type 'die of cancer'.
ACIDzap
Profile Joined May 2011
United States50 Posts
May 12 2012 02:05 GMT
#3
The post-game rage
This one is the most inexplicable of all. I can understand being angry with yourself for losing. If I stretch my imagination to when I was 5 years old and couldn't control my temper, I can sort of understand being angry with your opponent for beating you. What I don't understand is why people universally seem to accuse their opponents of being bad players. How does it make any sense to accuse someone who just beat you of being bad? Doesn't that just make you an even worse player


I am a diamond Zerg and I lose sometimes and I say that the opponent is bad for a good reason. And its not falsely accused, but rather because I AM better, but I made a simple error or miss-click that cost me the game. It does add to the self-hate aspect when you lose to someone who you KNOW you're better than because of something so silly and unfortunate that doesn't make the other player "better".
Day[9]
kerpal
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom2695 Posts
May 12 2012 02:10 GMT
#4
On May 12 2012 11:05 ACIDzap wrote:
Show nested quote +
The post-game rage
This one is the most inexplicable of all. I can understand being angry with yourself for losing. If I stretch my imagination to when I was 5 years old and couldn't control my temper, I can sort of understand being angry with your opponent for beating you. What I don't understand is why people universally seem to accuse their opponents of being bad players. How does it make any sense to accuse someone who just beat you of being bad? Doesn't that just make you an even worse player


I am a diamond Zerg and I lose sometimes and I say that the opponent is bad for a good reason. And its not falsely accused, but rather because I AM better, but I made a simple error or miss-click that cost me the game. It does add to the self-hate aspect when you lose to someone who you KNOW you're better than because of something so silly and unfortunate that doesn't make the other player "better".

But... this is a game of clicking accurately and fast. If one of your clicks at a crucial time was inaccurate that does mean you played bad. Not necessarily that you or he is a better player, but not miss-clicking is one of the requirements of playing well. You should be angry at yourself for miss-clicking. Also, how much worse can he really be if you're being matched against him?
Kwidowmaker
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada978 Posts
May 12 2012 02:16 GMT
#5
Perhaps this might be useful to you

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

User was warned for this post
Kk.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
May 12 2012 02:19 GMT
#6
On May 12 2012 11:02 kerpal wrote:
Also, 'victory dance' is a demonstration that you're so much better that you could beat them without all the extra money, I don't remember ever seeing a pro get it wrong and lose despite it. It's showmanship and entertainment.


There was a gsl game in which the players took turns dancing their way out of a victory.

Hippocleides doesn't care.
shikata ga nai
Hulavuta
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1252 Posts
May 12 2012 02:24 GMT
#7
On May 12 2012 11:16 Kwidowmaker wrote:
Perhaps this might be useful to you

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html


Haha, that's so mean but it's also so funny
Done with Team Liquid for a while. Don't expect to find me here.
pirsq
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia145 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 02:26:22
May 12 2012 02:24 GMT
#8
On May 12 2012 11:16 Kwidowmaker wrote:
Perhaps this might be useful to you

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I got 16. What does that mean? It doesn't give a scale.


On May 12 2012 11:19 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 11:02 kerpal wrote:
Also, 'victory dance' is a demonstration that you're so much better that you could beat them without all the extra money, I don't remember ever seeing a pro get it wrong and lose despite it. It's showmanship and entertainment.


There was a gsl game in which the players took turns dancing their way out of a victory.

Hippocleides doesn't care.

MarineKing vs Bomber at the GSTL finals, the game after the drop incident. Bomber drops a mule in MarineKing's base and loses 5 minutes later.
Kwidowmaker
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada978 Posts
May 12 2012 02:30 GMT
#9
On May 12 2012 11:24 pirsq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 11:16 Kwidowmaker wrote:
Perhaps this might be useful to you

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I got 16. What does that mean? It doesn't give a scale.



idk man I aint a doctor
Kk.
kerpal
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom2695 Posts
May 12 2012 02:33 GMT
#10
On May 12 2012 11:24 pirsq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 11:16 Kwidowmaker wrote:
Perhaps this might be useful to you

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I got 16. What does that mean? It doesn't give a scale.


Show nested quote +
On May 12 2012 11:19 sam!zdat wrote:
On May 12 2012 11:02 kerpal wrote:
Also, 'victory dance' is a demonstration that you're so much better that you could beat them without all the extra money, I don't remember ever seeing a pro get it wrong and lose despite it. It's showmanship and entertainment.


There was a gsl game in which the players took turns dancing their way out of a victory.

Hippocleides doesn't care.

MarineKing vs Bomber at the GSTL finals, the game after the drop incident. Bomber drops a mule in MarineKing's base and loses 5 minutes later.


haha. i missed those matches. That's pretty special.

this was the game i was thinking of. particularly apt that it involves FBH if we're going to refer to them as 'victory dances'

Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
May 12 2012 02:34 GMT
#11
Offensive GG is usually seen a problem because it comes before the game ends and is easily interpreted at "I've won, but you're so bad you don't realize it yet."
Logo
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
May 12 2012 02:39 GMT
#12
A different game, but the same basic discussion, with SC references at times.

That might help you more. Basically, everyone feels differently but it has become a standard for SC.
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
kerpal
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom2695 Posts
May 12 2012 02:49 GMT
#13
Someone else made a comparison with fencing (i fence) referencing gl hf and gg as starcraft equivalents of the (mandatory) salute before and handshake after each bout. I think in fencing it goes along way towards preventing the aggression of the sport from spilling out of the confines of the bout, which is obviously more necessary when everyone is carrying swords!

I think everyone should force themselves to be manner, every game, no matter what. It helps me to have a better attitude to my loses to have the discipline to say gg when I lose. The first step towards improving is to take responsibility for you loses.

@OP: are you pointing out amusing discrepancies between what we say and what we mean, or are you suggesting it's stupid for us to say it? I assumed the first, but others seem to have taken your post as an attack on the status quo of etiquette.
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-12 03:18:23
May 12 2012 03:14 GMT
#14
On May 12 2012 11:05 ACIDzap wrote:
Show nested quote +
The post-game rage
This one is the most inexplicable of all. I can understand being angry with yourself for losing. If I stretch my imagination to when I was 5 years old and couldn't control my temper, I can sort of understand being angry with your opponent for beating you. What I don't understand is why people universally seem to accuse their opponents of being bad players. How does it make any sense to accuse someone who just beat you of being bad? Doesn't that just make you an even worse player


I am a diamond Zerg and I lose sometimes and I say that the opponent is bad for a good reason. And its not falsely accused, but rather because I AM better, but I made a simple error or miss-click that cost me the game. It does add to the self-hate aspect when you lose to someone who you KNOW you're better than because of something so silly and unfortunate that doesn't make the other player "better".

-.- You're not 'better'. You made one mistake too many and lost. There's so many mistakes in a diamond game it's basically whoever can make the least wins. Better players do things faster with less errors and mis-clicks.

@ OP: you don't ladder enough if you can't understand post-game rage.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
May 12 2012 03:43 GMT
#15
On May 12 2012 11:05 ACIDzap wrote:
Show nested quote +
The post-game rage
This one is the most inexplicable of all. I can understand being angry with yourself for losing. If I stretch my imagination to when I was 5 years old and couldn't control my temper, I can sort of understand being angry with your opponent for beating you. What I don't understand is why people universally seem to accuse their opponents of being bad players. How does it make any sense to accuse someone who just beat you of being bad? Doesn't that just make you an even worse player


I am a diamond Zerg and I lose sometimes and I say that the opponent is bad for a good reason. And its not falsely accused, but rather because I AM better, but I made a simple error or miss-click that cost me the game. It does add to the self-hate aspect when you lose to someone who you KNOW you're better than because of something so silly and unfortunate that doesn't make the other player "better".

Wait so you lost because you made a SINGLE mistake?
lol why aren't you GM or something then? Every player makes mistakes in every match, who wins and who loses is determined by the scale and frequency of those mistakes. And honestly, there are so many mistakes even in a masters game anyways
¯\_(シ)_/¯
ZeKk
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sweden320 Posts
May 12 2012 03:59 GMT
#16
Thinking alot about this? Why would u care so much for starcraft ettiquetts to overanalyze this? Make no sense
Just play and be happy
Leyra
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1222 Posts
May 12 2012 04:10 GMT
#17
On May 12 2012 11:05 ACIDzap wrote:
Show nested quote +
The post-game rage
This one is the most inexplicable of all. I can understand being angry with yourself for losing. If I stretch my imagination to when I was 5 years old and couldn't control my temper, I can sort of understand being angry with your opponent for beating you. What I don't understand is why people universally seem to accuse their opponents of being bad players. How does it make any sense to accuse someone who just beat you of being bad? Doesn't that just make you an even worse player


I am a diamond Zerg and I lose sometimes and I say that the opponent is bad for a good reason. And its not falsely accused, but rather because I AM better, but I made a simple error or miss-click that cost me the game. It does add to the self-hate aspect when you lose to someone who you KNOW you're better than because of something so silly and unfortunate that doesn't make the other player "better".


Rofl. This is exactly what's wrong with people on Ladder, and so mindblowing that prolly 25% of the time the dude rages about how bad the other player is, yet they're LOSING to the awful player, rofl.
Kanil
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1713 Posts
May 12 2012 04:13 GMT
#18
On May 12 2012 11:34 Logo wrote:
Offensive GG is usually seen a problem because it comes before the game ends and is easily interpreted at "I've won, but you're so bad you don't realize it yet."

Precisely.

You win when your opponent leaves the game, or he has no buildings left. It doesn't matter if you're 200 food against 20, you still haven't won if he still has buildings. Therefore, saying GG before you've won is rather presumptive, and you sound like you're telling your opponent to leave -- even though he hasn't lost yet.

Of course, some opponents might be just pointlessly delaying the game, and those players probably aren't worth your respect... but most of them aren't, and thus don't deserve to be told when to leave.
I used to have an Oz icon over here ---->
affinity
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States266 Posts
May 12 2012 04:14 GMT
#19
Like kerpal said, I view the "gl hf" and "gg" as more of handshakes than phrases. That being said, it IS pretty funny how the phrases are kinda backward in meaning - never really thought about it before this!
Azera
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3800 Posts
May 12 2012 04:14 GMT
#20
On May 12 2012 11:05 ACIDzap wrote:
Show nested quote +
The post-game rage
This one is the most inexplicable of all. I can understand being angry with yourself for losing. If I stretch my imagination to when I was 5 years old and couldn't control my temper, I can sort of understand being angry with your opponent for beating you. What I don't understand is why people universally seem to accuse their opponents of being bad players. How does it make any sense to accuse someone who just beat you of being bad? Doesn't that just make you an even worse player


I am a diamond Zerg and I lose sometimes and I say that the opponent is bad for a good reason. And its not falsely accused, but rather because I AM better, but I made a simple error or miss-click that cost me the game. It does add to the self-hate aspect when you lose to someone who you KNOW you're better than because of something so silly and unfortunate that doesn't make the other player "better".


If you lost because of a mis-click, you're actually still worse.
Check out some great music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 59m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Livibee 119
ProTech63
trigger 14
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 33906
TY 793
Pusan 515
actioN 488
Nal_rA 263
ToSsGirL 138
Aegong 126
Shine 125
Leta 55
Movie 32
[ Show more ]
NaDa 25
NotJumperer 16
Dota 2
XcaliburYe176
Fuzer 136
BananaSlamJamma15
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1126
shoxiejesuss284
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor134
Other Games
summit1g6579
WinterStarcraft454
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream3657
Other Games
gamesdonequick601
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 52
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 12
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
GSL Code S
1h 59m
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
16h 29m
Replay Cast
18h 29m
GSL Code S
1d 1h
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
1d 2h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
SOOP
3 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Cheesadelphia
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.