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So a few days ago, I was thinking a line to myself that I've thought often. "Man, I could be in Diamond if I didn't make all these stupid mistakes." And then I continued thinking. "How is it that I seem to outplay my opponents far more often than they outplay me? Most of the time I just do something dumb...it's so rare I get straight-out outplayed."
Then I started thinking about some of my OWN victories. The one-base colossus push against the fast expanding Protoss with FOUR sentries. The macro-fest against the Terran who never, ever dropped in the whole game. The Zerg who did this weird-ass all-in that hit at 10 minutes when I already had plenty of units.
Yeah...if I don't get outplayed when I do something stupid, neither did they. If I make a stupid mistake, and lose, I GOT OUTPLAYED. The opponent didn't do something stupid, and I did, and I have the audacity to not give them a fair victory? As soon as I realised this, the ladder suddenly seemed like a much fairer place.
We get outplayed more often than we think.
 
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
wonderful! that's exactly how it is. very cool you also came to that conclusion =)
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Very good point there, too many people aren't critical enough of their own play and therefore rage too easily at their opponent when they lose.
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The realization of failures where it is due, in my opinion, is the first step to becoming a more critical (and often times civil) person - and usually a better player, too. Kudos to you ^_^
Although some people take too much blame and end up becoming extremely negative, which is the opposite extreme.
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I've been thinking a lot about this, but with a much less humble conclusion. Your post made me think twice. Thanks.
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On April 20 2012 12:57 AKomrade wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about this, but with a much less humble conclusion. Your post made me think twice. Thanks.
What was your conclusion? Just a thought on humbleness - if you're not a gaming personality, being humble in something as stressful as SC2 is about the best thing you can be. It's too easy to let anger and stress from the ladder become the norm and spill over into the rest of your life, and it's very hard to compartmentalize stress.
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can anyone tell me why being humble is so damn important for english spoken persons?
isn't that more obnoxious than being hungry?
it's like you guys are trying to get to this nirvana/dhalsim/dalai lama/gandhi shit on videogames....
please give me a good reason because I don't get it.
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Very simple. If you are humble, you are not above blaming yourself for losses. If you think you're hot shit, you'll blame your opponent or lag or imbalance, and if you do that, you will never, ever be good. Ever. You have to be able to constantly find flaws in your own play so you can improve yourself, and that requires a reasonable level of humility.
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I've thought about this, but not so much in Starcraft as in LoL. You can play well and lose or win in SC2. If you execute your build well and he has nothing, well that's not your fault.
In LoL, though, there are some things that are just out of your control. If someone on your team decides to play horribly, the other 4 people can only do so much. Of course other people are going to tell you that there should be a horrible person on the other side or next game, but that's not much of a consolation when you're bleeding losses. And of course the unspoken accusation is that you really aren't losing in the manner you say you are or are an equal beneficiary. You'd have to be honest and keep careful track to really know I suppose.
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Baa?21247 Posts
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Jerubaal: Yeah, LoL can be punishing like that: I would never want to play LoL seriously. I only play it to mess around, because I dislike that loss of control. If I had an arranged team it would be different: I could handle it if we lost a game because someone I knew screwed up, as opposed to a random who just hemorrhages gold from every orifice.
While I know it will even out in the end (Actually, it should be better. If you don't hemorrhage money, there are 4 other players on your team who could, but five on the enemy team. Ergo, 5/9 terrible players should be on their team, not yours.) I don't want to deal with the variance in a game like LoL. Poker is okay because of how much volume you can put in...you can't multi-table LoL.
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5/5, I agree, completly... Altho my problems seem to lie in not sigeing tanks tvz vs masters zergs... and suiciding all my BL's to stalkers zvp... Q_Q. Army Controll Y U SO HARD.
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On April 20 2012 14:43 Salivanth wrote:you can't multi-table LoL.
Says you
Flash 16tables LOL while 12tabling 5kNL
...yeah maybe a bit of an exaggeration.
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On April 20 2012 12:27 Salivanth wrote:
So a few days ago, I was thinking a line to myself that I've thought often. "Man, I could be in Diamond if I didn't make all these stupid mistakes." And then I continued thinking. "How is it that I seem to outplay my opponents far more often than they outplay me? Most of the time I just do something dumb...it's so rare I get straight-out outplayed."
Then I started thinking about some of my OWN victories. The one-base colossus push against the fast expanding Protoss with FOUR sentries. The macro-fest against the Terran who never, ever dropped in the whole game. The Zerg who did this weird-ass all-in that hit at 10 minutes when I already had plenty of units.
Yeah...if I don't get outplayed when I do something stupid, neither did they. If I make a stupid mistake, and lose, I GOT OUTPLAYED. The opponent didn't do something stupid, and I did, and I have the audacity to not give them a fair victory? As soon as I realised this, the ladder suddenly seemed like a much fairer place.
We get outplayed more often than we think.
You are thinking Brood War. Welcome.
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On April 20 2012 14:10 Salivanth wrote:
Very simple. If you are humble, you are not above blaming yourself for losses. If you think you're hot shit, you'll blame your opponent or lag or imbalance, and if you do that, you will never, ever be good. Ever. You have to be able to constantly find flaws in your own play so you can improve yourself, and that requires a reasonable level of humility.
This basically. Being humble (or at least trying to) can give you a clearer picture of the world rather than seeing everything from a self-righteous perspective.
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On April 20 2012 13:44 SOyuncastor wrote:
can anyone tell me why being humble is so damn important for english spoken persons?
isn't that more obnoxious than being hungry?
it's like you guys are trying to get to this nirvana/dhalsim/dalai lama/gandhi shit on videogames....
please give me a good reason because I don't get it.
Ummm, it's about being nice to other people?
Assume you fail to defend a 2 base all-in because you got supply blocked twice. You can:
1) Blame imba protoss and rage about how n00b the other person is for playing that n00b race with no-skill builds. You get angry, the other person gets annoyed. You continue into next game, having learned nothing but how imba and newb toss is.
2) Acknowledge that your opponent made fewer mistakes than you did, and type out with a "gg wp". You watch the replay, and pay more attention to overlords next game. Other guy feels good for the "wp".
That is how it works in my head at least. If you prefer a battlenet where everyone shout at and insult each other despite being in the wrong, then I guess you are allowed that opinion, but I'm happy that you are not on my server. 
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I guess it depends on your definition of outplayed. I generally don't like to think that I outplay my Platinum opponents, nor that they outplay me. I make dumb mistakes, they make dumb mistakes... sometimes, they just use downright crappy builds, like when I run into Platinum Tosses who try to 4gate me, as if a competent zerg should ever lose to a 4gate nowadays, but that's not really me outplaying them, it's them making a mistake by using a crappy build and not even using it properly.
However, when I play on my smurf account, that's when I'm talking outplaying... where I use ridiculous builds and composition to stomp players who, while making a ton of mistakes, wouldn't have had a chance regardless.
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Cascade's right. It is really, REALLY annoying to lose to an all-in, especially an easy one to hold off, due to supply block. Once I got supply blocked on 32 and lost to 4-gate in PvP, and really, nobody should lose to 4-gate against an equally skilled player any more. (At least at platinum level.) But the fact is, my opponent didn't get lucky, I threw the game away. I deserved to lose that game, and I am lucky if my opponent DOESN'T punish my mistake, not unlucky if he does.
Plus, what's better for your long term skill?
A) Get pissed, play more games. Possibly lose more games because you're on tilt.
B) Get pissed, realise you're angry, stop playing. Don't practice for a while, come back later.
C) Accept you made a mistake, and keep playing calmly or while slightly irritated at yourself. Continue to gain practice experience without being at a large disadvantage.
Obviously B > A, but C is better than B. A poker article put it best, and I've never forgotten it.
"If you realise you're at risk of tilting, and quit before you lose any money, that is still going on tilt."
On April 20 2012 17:15 Tobberoth wrote:
I guess it depends on your definition of outplayed. I generally don't like to think that I outplay my Platinum opponents, nor that they outplay me. I make dumb mistakes, they make dumb mistakes... sometimes, they just use downright crappy builds, like when I run into Platinum Tosses who try to 4gate me, as if a competent zerg should ever lose to a 4gate nowadays, but that's not really me outplaying them, it's them making a mistake by using a crappy build and not even using it properly.
However, when I play on my smurf account, that's when I'm talking outplaying... where I use ridiculous builds and composition to stomp players who, while making a ton of mistakes, wouldn't have had a chance regardless.
And that's a perfectly valid view to have. As long as you apply the same standards to both sides of the table. It's okay to say "I made a dumb mistake, I wasn't outplayed" as long as you accept that you usually don't outplay the other guy either, he just made a dumb mistake. My problem was that I was applying different standards to myself and to my opponents: They didn't outplay me if I did something dumb, but I outplayed them if the situation was reversed.
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Yeah man. Also getting outplayed doesn't mean you're bad and don't deserve to be in X league; it means you got outplayed in that 1 game. I've seen people be down on themselves for losing 1 game poorly, though it was just one game.
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All my victories come from a few powerful timing push build orders that I've pretty much perfected, killing my opponent outright or doing unacceptable amounts of damage.
And all my losses come from top masters that actually scout well and hold off these pushes.
I guess that makes me a bad player X_X
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On April 20 2012 14:10 Salivanth wrote:
Very simple. If you are humble, you are not above blaming yourself for losses. If you think you're hot shit, you'll blame your opponent or lag or imbalance, and if you do that, you will never, ever be good. Ever. You have to be able to constantly find flaws in your own play so you can improve yourself, and that requires a reasonable level of humility.
I agree with this, but to what point is it true?
Look at players like MC or HerO. Their confidence gives them unique attributes / the ability to do things other protoss would NEVER do (see HerO always out on the map with small armies).
if you're sitting there thinking how bad you are while you are behind in a game, you probably won't win. if you are confident in your raw skill you might gain the brain power to find a way to win the game. I see this COUNTLESS times on HerO's stream.. I'll say "i know he's ridiculously far behind, and any other protoss would lose from here.. but he'll find a way to win. just watch." (5 minutes later hero pulls off some sick micro/ decision and starts to win) Again, this stems from his confidence.
Conclusion? Have humility to the point where you blame your losses on yourself and focus on what you could have done/ improved on and REMEMBER it. But do not have humility to the point where, if you're ever in a bad situation in-game, you immediately start telling yourself that you're awful, "this is embarassing" etc.. confidence in your own skill to manage tough situations WILL result in you being a better player.
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On April 20 2012 15:51 hkf wrote:Says you Flash 16tables LOL while 12tabling 5kNL ...yeah maybe a bit of an exaggeration.
Yup, saying only flash can play that few tables is an exaggeration, I'm sure jaedong and bisu could do it just as easily, too.
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United States10548 Posts
Very well said. I used to rage whenever I lost and always call their strats some cheesy all-in. Now I actually type out that GG when I play unless they cheese. Great writeup. 5/5
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Im the opposite. When I loss I say "damn I suck". When I make a mistake ingame I say "fuck Im sucking so hard" and if I win I say "LOL that guy had to be sooo bad to lose to me after all the shit I did"...
idk what to do ;(
nice writeup and Im sure it applies to many people!
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does anyone else remember day9 saying during a daily something along the lines of "until u hit about diamond and masters your opponent doesn't even really matter because your loses are all completely related to something you could have done better that had nothing to do with your opponent"(build order, macro etc.) i just started playing mid and high diamonds and only recently have i felt like i make as few mistakes as i can and still lose because i got out played instead of me just beating my self with a dumb or risky idea/play back when i was below plat.
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On April 20 2012 22:34 Zephirdd wrote:
Im the opposite. When I loss I say "damn I suck". When I make a mistake ingame I say "fuck Im sucking so hard" and if I win I say "LOL that guy had to be sooo bad to lose to me after all the shit I did"...
idk what to do ;(
nice writeup and Im sure it applies to many people!
That's the same thing, not the opposite!
You're recognizing that when you lose, you screw up more than your opponent, and when you win, your opponent screwed up more than you.
The only difference is you're assuming a base level of screwed-up-ness from your own play.
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On April 20 2012 22:41 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 22:34 Zephirdd wrote:
Im the opposite. When I loss I say "damn I suck". When I make a mistake ingame I say "fuck Im sucking so hard" and if I win I say "LOL that guy had to be sooo bad to lose to me after all the shit I did"...
idk what to do ;(
nice writeup and Im sure it applies to many people! That's the same thing, not the opposite! You're recognizing that when you lose, you screw up more than your opponent, and when you win, your opponent screwed up more than you. The only difference is you're assuming a base level of screwed-up-ness from your own play.
Well, the thing is: I don't feel better. I feel horrible for thinking that I screw up so hard. And tht's what makes me mad.
Reason I like to play DOTA2 or WoW is that I can always blame others.
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Imagine if IdrA woke up one day and came to this realization. Would his stream montages be as much fun to watch?
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On April 20 2012 13:03 Vod.kaholic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 12:57 AKomrade wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about this, but with a much less humble conclusion. Your post made me think twice. Thanks. What was your conclusion? Just a thought on humbleness - if you're not a gaming personality, being humble in something as stressful as SC2 is about the best thing you can be. It's too easy to let anger and stress from the ladder become the norm and spill over into the rest of your life, and it's very hard to compartmentalize stress.
I figured I needed to cooldown and realize that I AM getting outplayed. Its less stressful entering a game and more relaxing for my mind (chokes out a lot of my ability to think straight). Its hard and I'm always struggling with it, but my alternative is to stop playing if I can't control myself and I don't want that.
I guess it really stems from the fear of hitting my "skill cap" and not advancing anymore than I can, which in a way probably is a wall a lot of people hit when they're trying to develop skill.
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Wow, it's like a rational reaction to losing and being bad at StarCraft. Want a gold medal? lol
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I'd love one, but I live in Australia so the postage might be a little steep for you.
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EPT
