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Australia8532 Posts
Hi everyone =)
So i am in my penultimate year of studying at university for my undergraduate degree. I am studying Commerce/Law (combined 5 year degree, majoring in finance - some context for international readers) and through some soul searching I have recently discovered i don't want to be a lawyer. I guess my father-in-law is happy because he has reminded me many times that "I don't know a happy lawyer, and i know a lot of lawyers!"
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lcOj0.jpg) Overruled!
So after realising that i don't want to be a lawyer and somewhat coming to terms with the fact that i still have to study 2 more years of subjects that may be interesting but ultimately useless, i decided it was time to start looking for internships for the end of the year. Once deciding that i want to pursue a career in 'finance' i thought i was set - i had made the hard decision about finance or law right? But no. Apparently 'finance' is an incredibly ambiguous term involving anything from 'banking' to 'insurance' to 'corporate finance' to 'consulting and advisory' - anyway you get the point.
So this undoubtedly led to more soul searching! After speaking to a few friends I stumbled across a field known as management consulting; it had everything i wanted from a career - challenging subject matter, significant focus on problem solving, good pay and career progression opportunities and most importantly it is mostly client facing. So now that i had narrowed down the area of finance that i wanted to work in, i thought it would be good to look into some internship opportunities for the end of the year.
What a process.
After speaking to a friend who is going down a similar path but looking for graduate jobs i realised just how hard it would be to secure a top tier consulting gig. My friend is the kind of guy that is somehow good at EVERYTHING! I asked to see his resume and his list of achievements went on for 3 pages - school captain, house captain, chair of charity committee, duke of edinborough gold award, sports captain, local club treasurer etc etc etc. Plus - he is a genius. So he obviously managed to secure a few interviews at some high profile consulting firms (McKinsey, LEK, Port Jackson etc) and he gave me a heads up. The process usually went something like this:
1) Online application with resume, cover letter and academic transcript
a) If unsuccessful, email stating how they received so many quality applications so they are unable to interview you.
2) If successful, you get invited along to a case study test day – these can range from a variety of things but they are generally incredibly hard and test your thinking on the fly.
For example: My friend was given a situation about a mining company in Namibia who were looking to expand by purchasing 1 of 3 mining sites. He was then given the information verbally about the mining sites and made to stand in front of the assessor and work out which mining site would be most appropriate; showing all his working on the whiteboard. Now they don’t just give you the information; they first tell you very vague bits and pieces so you have to ask them the right questions or you are never going to get an answer.
The assessor then intentionally fed him wrong information to lead him to a dead end to assess how he would handle the situation. The information involved pretty tough mathematics (probably not hard for the general TL user majoring in maths :p) with geometric progressions and present value discounting. After eventually coming to the decision of which mine to acquire, the assessor simply nods her head and moves on…
TO A BRAINTEASER!
You are in one room with 3 lights switches; there are 3 light bulbs in another room that you cannot see. You can flick two light switches and you can only enter the other room once to see which lights are on. How do you know which switch is for which bulb? Now when given time I managed to figure this one out – but this was done on the spot, no time to work it out you have to immediately try reason the answer in front of the assessor.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v3CMQ.jpg) I.. Uh.. Errr.. But?
The day then progresses to another section that is generally referred to as “market sizing.” The assessor gives you a question like “What is the market for light bulbs in Australia per annum?” or “How many car tires are there in Australia?” – it’s generally very vague, big picture questions that nobody knows the exact answer but they just want to see you work it through. The easy ones usually start with a population metric so for example the light bulb question above would usually go like this:
I assume 21 million people in Australia
I assume average of 3 people per household, therefore 7 million households in Australia
I assume on average each household has 2 bedrooms, a hallway, a living area, a kitchen, a study, a veranda and a front door light; that is 8 “areas” with an average of 1 – 2 light bulbs per room. I assume 1.5 light bulbs per room and this is 12 light bulbs per household. Therefore there are 84 million light bulbs in Australia. These would have to be replaced x amount of times per year and light bulbs cost $x. You get the idea 
So once you have progressed through these lovely mental obstacle courses you move on to what is called a “partner interview.” This is exactly as described – a one on one interview with a partner in the area you are applying for. These interviews usually go for 30minutes – 1 hour and focus on general competencies. The questions are generally focussed on leadership ability, goal setting, team work etc asking for scenarios from your life that demonstrate your abilities. For example, I got asked when I set a goal and then something happened that meant I was unable to achieve it – What was it? How did I react? These sorts of questions I find really easy to tell stories about due to my life experience and a little embellishment never hurt right?
If they still like you after a partner interview; you get the job! Yay! All of this happens over a period of a few weeks and for the very top tier firms, they generally take 12 out of approximatel 7,000 applicants. Long gone are the days where you simply submit a resume, get an interview and rock the interview.
So I guess I have a long road ahead…
Feel free to share any job interview experiences
  
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Wow, I would just get really flustered at the lightbulb brainteaser - no consulting in my future 
GL with everything!
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Fermi questions (averages and metrics) are stupid. Knowing the answer proves that (a) you already encountered a Fermi question, in person or in story, and (b) you have basic multiplication skills.
Brain teasers are stupid. Knowing the answer proves that you know the answer and that's it.
My job interview experiences are few and sparse, but I was lucky enough to never be faced with a stupid question (and not many boring questions ; when those happen, I instantly assume a very bored stance and draw the answer out forever without actually saying anything insightful, at which point people usually fall back to the interesting questions - don't do this if yout field of work is unemployment-heavy).
When I'm the one conducting interviews, the questions I enjoy the most are the ones that have no good answer : they are very easy to set up when there are two interviewers in the same room that have different values/objectives, and the way the candidate attempts to answer them tells a lot about him/her. The actual answer doesn't have to be important, although it's a plus if it is.
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 20 2012 08:26 Apom wrote:
Fermi questions (averages and metrics) are stupid. Knowing the answer proves that (a) you already encountered a Fermi question, in person or in story, and (b) you have basic multiplication skills.
Brain teasers are stupid. Knowing the answer proves that you know the answer and that's it.
My job interview experiences are few and sparse, but I was lucky enough to never be faced with a stupid question (and not many boring questions ; when those happen, I instantly assume a very bored stance and draw the answer out forever without actually saying anything insightful, at which point people usually fall back to the interesting questions - don't do this if yout field of work is unemployment-heavy).
When I'm the one conducting interviews, the questions I enjoy the most are the ones that have no good answer : they are very easy to set up when there are two interviewers in the same room that have different values/objectives, and the way the candidate attempts to answer them tells a lot about him/her. The actual answer doesn't have to be important, although it's a plus if it is.
The whole point of "fermi" questions is that the answer isn't important. They don't care about the final answer so long as it isn't too far off base. The whole idea is to see how you logically break down large scale problems and employ common sense, general knowledge and basic mathematics.
As for the braint easer question; yeah i don't get those.. i hate them so much.
Another experience i had which was pretty interesting was an E-tray exercise:
We all got given a laptop and they simulated an email inbox. They give you about 20 documents of information about a fictional client and their business. You are also given information about the consulting company you work for and the team you have. Over 50min you send and receive emails in this inbox with questions based on the information provided; based on your answers you get different email replies. You usually end up sending about 20 - 25 emails in 50min (involves time to find the answers in a sea of informational documents). After this you have to write an extended email to your boss recommending a company to invest in.
i thought it was pretty interesting; simulating an email inbox definitely gave it a work feel
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hehe the interview process sounds really rough, I just graduated with a CS degree and it's kind of similar. All the job interviews I went to, the interviewer gave me coding problems and I had to solve it on the whiteboard while they watched. You are not necessarily supposed to come up with the perfect answer but ur supposed to talk and describe ur thought process so they can see your problem solving skills. Sometimes there are brainteaster questions too like the lightbulb one.
I always thought the brainteasters questions were really dumb as I dont think it really lets you know how well an applicant will do on the job. Plust if its a famous one like your lightbulb question, then someone who had done a little research on the net would have already known the answer.
The economy these days, cant walk in with a college deg and expect to land a job anymore keke.
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On March 20 2012 08:30 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:26 Apom wrote:
Fermi questions (averages and metrics) are stupid. Knowing the answer proves that (a) you already encountered a Fermi question, in person or in story, and (b) you have basic multiplication skills.
Brain teasers are stupid. Knowing the answer proves that you know the answer and that's it.
My job interview experiences are few and sparse, but I was lucky enough to never be faced with a stupid question (and not many boring questions ; when those happen, I instantly assume a very bored stance and draw the answer out forever without actually saying anything insightful, at which point people usually fall back to the interesting questions - don't do this if yout field of work is unemployment-heavy).
When I'm the one conducting interviews, the questions I enjoy the most are the ones that have no good answer : they are very easy to set up when there are two interviewers in the same room that have different values/objectives, and the way the candidate attempts to answer them tells a lot about him/her. The actual answer doesn't have to be important, although it's a plus if it is. The whole point of "fermi" questions is that the answer isn't important. They don't care about the final answer so long as it isn't too far off base. The whole idea is to see how you logically break down large scale problems and employ common sense, general knowledge and basic mathematics.
Those questions are just a not-so-visible brain teaser. If the candidate has never met that kind of question, then yes, you can see how he handles what is a new problem for him. But if he has, then he pretty much already knows the thought process, hence the answer.
Even worse (and more so for brain teasers), if he already knows the thought process/answer, but is subtle enough to fake that he doesn't, then you will be led to believe that he's really good, when the only lesson learnt is that your question was bad.
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1.5 light bulbs per room x.X
the room i'm in right now has 10 + 1 that's disconnected (admittedly, it's a one room apartment) and my bathroom has another 4 + 1 that's broken. There's bulbs everywhere. Every kitchen has at least three bulbs (ceiling, oven, fume hood), every bathroom probably has more than two, every bedroom with a night stand has at least two. Every study with a desk lamp has at least two. Then there's hallways that have additional lamps, there's stair cases that have additional lamps, and then there's even additional lamps on the outside of houses. And then of course a lot of lamps actually have multiple blubs (my grandfather has one with 16 bulbs i think, two separate circuits). You need to work on that estimation :D If i do a quick guess i end up at .. over 50 bulbs in this house (2 stories + basement + my loft appartment), probably even over 60.
/edit: fridge and freezer have blubs too, another +1 on everything x)
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 20 2012 09:02 MisterD wrote:
1.5 light bulbs per room x.X
the room i'm in right now has 9 + 1 that's disconnected (admittedly, it's a one room apartment) and my bathroom has another 4 + 1 that's broken. There's bulbs everywhere. Every kitchen has at least three bulbs (ceiling, oven, fume hood), every bathroom probably has more than two, every bedroom with a night stand has at least two. Every study with a desk lamp has at least two. Then there's hallways that have additional lamps, there's stair cases that have additional lamps, and then there's even additional lamps on the outside of houses. And then of course a lot of lamps actually have multiple blubs (my grandfather has one with 16 bulbs i think, two separate circuits). You need to work on that estimation :D If i do a quick guess i end up at .. over 50 bulbs in this house (2 stories + basement + my loft appartment), probably even over 60.
I think you're slightly missing the entire point of the question; there's no way of knowing how many 1 bedroom apartments or studios there are in an entire country - if i count the light bulbs in my parents house i hit close to 50 as well - if i count the ones in my apartment where i live now i have 5.. it's about being reasonable and logical
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I looked up the answer to the light bulb problem, and... yeah that's kind of dumb. They should at least specify that it's a "real world" problem and not an abstract problem where the lightbulbs are just binary bits.
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On March 20 2012 09:05 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:02 MisterD wrote:
1.5 light bulbs per room x.X
the room i'm in right now has 9 + 1 that's disconnected (admittedly, it's a one room apartment) and my bathroom has another 4 + 1 that's broken. There's bulbs everywhere. Every kitchen has at least three bulbs (ceiling, oven, fume hood), every bathroom probably has more than two, every bedroom with a night stand has at least two. Every study with a desk lamp has at least two. Then there's hallways that have additional lamps, there's stair cases that have additional lamps, and then there's even additional lamps on the outside of houses. And then of course a lot of lamps actually have multiple blubs (my grandfather has one with 16 bulbs i think, two separate circuits). You need to work on that estimation :D If i do a quick guess i end up at .. over 50 bulbs in this house (2 stories + basement + my loft appartment), probably even over 60. I think you're slightly missing the entire point of the question; there's no way of knowing how many 1 bedroom apartments or studios there are in an entire country - if i count the light bulbs in my parents house i hit close to 50 as well - if i count the ones in my apartment where i live now i have 5.. it's about being reasonable and logical
Well, having learned that one usually underestimates stuff by a ton, i think estimating something too low is actually bad. the actual result would probably still be 10 times as high because you have bulbs in cars, on street lamps, and there's tons of public places that are not peoples households and thus come additionally and have even sooo much more bulbs, so actually the whole estimation goes down the drain. And then there's the occasional kim dotcom with probably over 5000 bulbs in a single household.
underestimating stuff can be huge danger towards budgets and deadlines. It's actually often realistic for any estimation that's out of your knowledge zone, that you say afterwards "and for all the stuff i forgot, i will just multiply that guess value by 5, so here you go, its about X". I wonder, how would your average interviewer react to anyone saying that? good or bad?
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 20 2012 09:19 MisterD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:05 bkrow wrote:On March 20 2012 09:02 MisterD wrote:
1.5 light bulbs per room x.X
the room i'm in right now has 9 + 1 that's disconnected (admittedly, it's a one room apartment) and my bathroom has another 4 + 1 that's broken. There's bulbs everywhere. Every kitchen has at least three bulbs (ceiling, oven, fume hood), every bathroom probably has more than two, every bedroom with a night stand has at least two. Every study with a desk lamp has at least two. Then there's hallways that have additional lamps, there's stair cases that have additional lamps, and then there's even additional lamps on the outside of houses. And then of course a lot of lamps actually have multiple blubs (my grandfather has one with 16 bulbs i think, two separate circuits). You need to work on that estimation :D If i do a quick guess i end up at .. over 50 bulbs in this house (2 stories + basement + my loft appartment), probably even over 60. I think you're slightly missing the entire point of the question; there's no way of knowing how many 1 bedroom apartments or studios there are in an entire country - if i count the light bulbs in my parents house i hit close to 50 as well - if i count the ones in my apartment where i live now i have 5.. it's about being reasonable and logical Well, having learned that one usually underestimates stuff by a ton, i think estimating something too low is actually bad. the actual result would probably still be 10 times as high because you have bulbs in cars, on street lamps, and there's tons of public places that are not peoples households and thus come additionally and have even sooo much more bulbs, so actually the whole estimation goes down the drain. And then there's the occasional kim dotcom with probably over 5000 bulbs in a single household. underestimating stuff can be huge danger towards budgets and deadlines. It's actually often realistic for any estimation that's out of your knowledge zone, that you say afterwards "and for all the stuff i forgot, i will just multiply that guess value by 5, so here you go, its about X". I wonder, how would your average interviewer react to anyone saying that? good or bad?
As to the first paragraph; the assessors generally love it when you separate variables like that - domestic, industrial, public sector etc but they usually restrict the focus onto one area as it is usually a timed exercise.
As to the 'danger' in underestimating variables - you are absolutely correct. But again not the point of the exercise - they don't actually care about the number. They want to see how you handle being confronted with a vague and challenging question and break down the variable components. The exercise has NOTHING to do with budgets and deadlines. NOTHING.
Another example is "how many people are at Sydney airport at 9am on Monday morning?" or "What is the demand for cocoa beans by the Hershey company per annum?" or "How many pieces of paper are required to cover the equator end to end?"
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On March 20 2012 09:23 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:19 MisterD wrote:On March 20 2012 09:05 bkrow wrote:On March 20 2012 09:02 MisterD wrote:
1.5 light bulbs per room x.X
the room i'm in right now has 9 + 1 that's disconnected (admittedly, it's a one room apartment) and my bathroom has another 4 + 1 that's broken. There's bulbs everywhere. Every kitchen has at least three bulbs (ceiling, oven, fume hood), every bathroom probably has more than two, every bedroom with a night stand has at least two. Every study with a desk lamp has at least two. Then there's hallways that have additional lamps, there's stair cases that have additional lamps, and then there's even additional lamps on the outside of houses. And then of course a lot of lamps actually have multiple blubs (my grandfather has one with 16 bulbs i think, two separate circuits). You need to work on that estimation :D If i do a quick guess i end up at .. over 50 bulbs in this house (2 stories + basement + my loft appartment), probably even over 60. I think you're slightly missing the entire point of the question; there's no way of knowing how many 1 bedroom apartments or studios there are in an entire country - if i count the light bulbs in my parents house i hit close to 50 as well - if i count the ones in my apartment where i live now i have 5.. it's about being reasonable and logical Well, having learned that one usually underestimates stuff by a ton, i think estimating something too low is actually bad. the actual result would probably still be 10 times as high because you have bulbs in cars, on street lamps, and there's tons of public places that are not peoples households and thus come additionally and have even sooo much more bulbs, so actually the whole estimation goes down the drain. And then there's the occasional kim dotcom with probably over 5000 bulbs in a single household. underestimating stuff can be huge danger towards budgets and deadlines. It's actually often realistic for any estimation that's out of your knowledge zone, that you say afterwards "and for all the stuff i forgot, i will just multiply that guess value by 5, so here you go, its about X". I wonder, how would your average interviewer react to anyone saying that? good or bad? As to the first paragraph; the assessors generally love it when you separate variables like that - domestic, industrial, public sector etc but they usually restrict the focus onto one area as it is usually a timed exercise. As to the 'danger' in underestimating variables - you are absolutely correct. But again not the point of the exercise - they don't actually care about the number. They want to see how you handle being confronted with a vague and challenging question and break down the variable components. The exercise has NOTHING to do with budgets and deadlines. NOTHING. Another example is "how many people are at Sydney airport at 9am on Monday morning?" or "What is the demand for cocoa beans by the Hershey company per annum?" or "How many pieces of paper are required to cover the equator end to end?"
The equator is a line, a one-dimensional object. You can't cover a one-dimensional object with two-dimensional objects.
// edit : well technically you can, it's just that you need zero of them.
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Australia8532 Posts
I think that may be a language barrier issue but when i say cover i mean putting pieces of paper next to each other, end to end, all the way across the equator - or maybe better expressed as across the surface of the equator all the way around the globe? I don't know if that makes more sense but it's just another example of breaking down a large, potentially vague distance and expressing it terms of # of paper (which is approximately 30cm in length)
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across the surface of the equator all the way around the globe That's my point, the equator is a line, and as such it has no surface. Not a language issue, rather a math issue.
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Australia8532 Posts
Lol seems to be a comprehension issue more than anything.
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Light bulb question is dumb, esp. since it depends more on whether or not you've heard of it before. I heard that one in elementary school. I'm sure it's the same for others. :/
Fermi questions are also ridiculous, because they basically test random facts and trivia. I have a fair amount of experience with them b/c of Science Olympiad in HS, and it says next to nothing about a person's ability to break down problems, IMO, esp. if he's already encountered those questions before. They'd almost do better giving out a sheet of USAMO problems.
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What university are you from? And how much does university ranking play a role when looking for a job? Like, do you see alot of ANU students taking up roles at top law firms, bulge brackets etc?
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 22 2012 19:25 sharky246 wrote:
What university are you from? And how much does university ranking play a role when looking for a job? Like, do you see alot of ANU students taking up roles at top law firms, bulge brackets etc?
I'm at Macquarie Uni - so nothing glamorous; while certain universities come with reputation (ANU, Sydney Uni etc) i think they focus a lot more on your actual marks (from my experience personally.) I chose my university based on convenience for commuting - i got the marks for Sydney and UNSW but realised if i had to travel 45min to get to class, i wasn't going to be going to many classes :p
Your academic transcript is pretty important for getting your first job; plus extra curricular activities - they love the good ol' leadership examples =) if you only have examples of leadership and teamwork from university experiences you won't go very far.
I am not sure if that answers your question?
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EPT
