EPTHoping that both Jinro and Idra kick start their year and push on and do things in 2012!!!
TOP 30 Foreigner Ranking! - Page 3
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
Hoping that both Jinro and Idra kick start their year and push on and do things in 2012!!! | ||
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Epoch
Canada257 Posts
top 4 should obviously be stephano huk nani and idra, they are the only one's that compete for 1st place win's vs koreans in major tournaments. i don't know how you get ret as 4th instead of idra. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On March 17 2012 19:50 Epoch wrote: ^ jinro didn't just get code S, he got back to back round of 4s in gsl right after winning MLG.. that's a serious achievement. there hasn't been another one like it for foreigners since. foreigners get smashed in GSL. top 4 should obviously be stephano huk nani and idra, they are the only one's that compete for 1st place win's vs koreans in major tournaments. i don't know how you get ret as 4th instead of idra. Idra... right now? Idra competes with Koreans for 1st place in major tournaments? I want what you are smoking. | ||
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Chaves
Brazil315 Posts
On March 17 2012 19:55 SeaSwift wrote: Idra... right now? Idra competes with Koreans for 1st place in major tournaments? I want what you are smoking. Make 2 please!! | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
IdrA: Probably yes. SeleCt: hm, probably. Dimaga: It seems like it, but he always delivers offline somehow. maybe a tiny bit. SaSe: Didnt show anything tbh. i like his play and his style, therefore i put im higher than he probably should be DeMusliM/White-Ra: hard to judge, i disagree with demu though. Feast: much too high - others argue hes much too low. look at his recent results! Sheth: 1 allkill - what else did he show? watch at what he did (after i posted this) at redbull lan. i think you rly tend to overrate him cause hes a mannerbear and had 1 huge (online) result lately. BratOK: you didnt watch him play lately, right? you wont see him often, but when u see him, he delivers HasuObs: watch team-game results, aside from losing to illusion, he always wins somehow, even against koreans. Furthermore, he has decent offline results. ClouD: You probably dont even know him. Impressive results lately, if anything, hes rated too low. Strelok: well, hes still a very solid player and even beat lucky in assembly i believe, although still not making it out of the groups (very hard groups). i still think he belongs here, hard to judge. Nightend: i agree, he feels a little low. ToD/TiTaN: Probably, but there was no room left in the little higher ranks :D @Kraznaya: I explained why i didnt put sen, xigua, macsed in - its hard to judge them for me since the regions come closer together. i didnt see enough to know what skilllevel they rly are. if you want me to judge them, sen would probably get rank 6, xigua rank 9, macsed top 25. | ||
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
If it's on tournament win odds(assuming koreans are playing) I'd take out jinro, happy, stelok, cloud, kas and replace with elfi,bling,haypro, major, kiwikaki. for 15 protoss, 10 zerg and 5 terran, which is more accurate and reflective of foreigner success I think. If it's based on actual skill I'd probably take out bunch of the protoss put back terran, along with illusion, kawaii, dde, qxc, naama. Since they practice on korea and are actually good not just because P seems to "suit" foreigners much better. If it was a tournament with no Koreans also the terrans odds would go up. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On March 17 2012 16:46 Kraznaya wrote: where the fuck are sen and xigua Asia. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On March 18 2012 00:34 Nibbler89 wrote: Is this based on actual skill or on odds of being able to win a tournament. If it's on tournament win odds(assuming koreans are playing) I'd take out jinro, happy, stelok, cloud, kas and replace with elfi,bling,haypro, major, kiwikaki. for 15 protoss, 10 zerg and 5 terran, which is more accurate and reflective of foreigner success I think. If it's based on actual skill I'd probably take out bunch of the protoss put back terran, along with illusion, kawaii, dde, qxc, naama. Since they practice on korea and are actually good not just because P seems to "suit" foreigners much better. If it was a tournament with no Koreans also the terrans odds would go up. taking kas out of a top 30 foreigner list is pretty reflect how much your opinion is worth. probably a frustrated terran? thats how u sound. anyway, ty for the huge feedback, didnt expect that, makes me motivated to keep watching the players even more carefully to release better lists in the next months! | ||
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
On March 18 2012 02:39 KalWarkov wrote: taking kas out of a top 30 foreigner list is pretty reflect how much your opinion is worth. probably a frustrated terran? thats how u sound. anyway, ty for the huge feedback, didnt expect that, makes me motivated to keep watching the players even more carefully to release better lists in the next months! Wait so.. I replace kas with major and that means my opinion is worth little when you were the one that included kas but not major in the first place? If you think Major doesn't even belong on top 30 while kas is #8 that speaks to how much YOUR opinion is worth. ( not that it matters for either of us this is just for fun /fan obviously, I don't know why you had to get so aggressive) Kas is also still a very good player.Also, if it's based purely on tournament results(which I asked) then removing some of the lower terran and putting in the protoss I listed with more big tournament success makes sense.Also you reason you don't put major in top 30 because of lack of tournament entry / results. As opposed to jinro? Or is it because I substituted a lot of the weaker terrans with protoss to reflect the tournament results(which i thought this was based on, thats why i specifically asked if it was based on skill or just results) which also makes sense considering results / racial distribution of the foreign players in the first place ( a lot more p compared to T). You also include korean terrans(dde,illusion,select) which is just weird you might as well include OGS MC since hes SK gaming now. Even though they may have lived in US I wouldn't really consider them western player Select still says his English is poor and his TLPD lists him as SK and I believe he trains in SK too? Illusion usually identifies as korean as well, I was saying that just because they lived in US for awhile doesn't mean they should count as westerner player imo, but then you act like i'm an idiot for having that opinion too.. I also even included the caveat that if there are no koreans the terran will do better, terran just have a hard time beating superior opponents compared to p and z, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317571. Partially because of how volatile zvz / pvp is and partly because of how its really hard to beat a superior player in tvt compared to zvt / pvt because of various all ins. Yes I am frustrated terran but it wasn't really relevant to the truth of the matter or my opinion on your power rank. TBH I think most people in the top 30 will be pretty close anyways and then its more about just organizing the top 6-10 or so I just disagreed with some of the terrans you put in. Anyways more aggressive posting from you saying I'm banned for stupidity (which to your credit you edited out) sure my first post may have been a bit tongue in cheek but it was still based on facts. I think you were just offended that I implied there's more successful foreign protoss players because there are more foreign protoss players because protoss suits foreigners who are usually considered slower compared to koreans( I didn't even realize you were protoss player until afterwards but I guess that explains your reaction).Once again lol, that several of the terrans are asian/korean but none of the protoss or zerg are. Keep your head in the sand though , considering you only addressed one argument(barely) before calling me stupid and banning me, I imagine it will be there for quite some time  | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
dde illusion and select lived in the us before sc2 even came out, so does MC right. oh w8. Kas showed offline results. wc3 3rd, iem 3rd, incredible online results. Major didnt show anything. i think hes good, but he didnt even play any notable tournament lately didnt get agressive on you, i just stated that i think you dont know much about the foreign scene which you prooved to be true once again. And you also stated your bias towards terran being the weakest race. i dont have a problem with ppl disagreeing with me as you saw in the answers i gave before, but your statements are just of a different level. you are banned from my blog, sir. | ||
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laLAlA[uC]
Canada963 Posts
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
On March 17 2012 14:53 tree.hugger wrote: Gut reactions: + Show Spoiler + 1. Stephano 2. HuK 3. NaNiwa 4. Ret 5. ThorZaIN - (No issues with the top five, although I'd hasten to add that all of these guys are really really close. Huge gap between #5 and the rest) 6. IdrA - Much too high 7. SeleCT - A little high 8. Kas 9. DIMAGA - Much too high. 10. SaSe - Too low 11. MaNa 12. Nerchio - Too low 13. DeMusliM - A little high 14. White-Ra - too high 15. Feast - Much too high 16. Sheth - Way too low 17. BRAT_OK - No, no, no. Not in the top 30 at all. 18. MorroW - Too low 19. Grubby - I have no idea about Grubby, some days he's up here, some days he's off the top by a mile. 20. Happy - No idea about Happy either. Online, he's been a beast, offline he's been terrible. 21. Socke 22. SjoW - Another confusing one. Could be up, could be down or off. Dunno. 23. HasuObs - Recent results aside, until Hasu shows us more than one style, I don't think he belongs here 24. ClouD - Not in the top 30 25. DarKFoRcE - I don't think DF is so good, but he keeps winning, so what do I know? 26. Strelok - Not in the top 30 27.NightEnD - A little low 28. Jinro 29. ToD - Too low 30. TITAN - Too low Deserved to be on this list: Beastyqt 100%, Naama 95%, GosI[Terran] 80%, sLivko 80%, BlinG 50% I think TLO and HayprO are on here too, but I recognize I'm a little biased on that front. Criminal omissions from your "Close but no Cigar" list: Livezerg, Abver, LucifroN totally disagree with Feast, he showed amazing resuslts (went through in 3 IEM groupstages) he should be higher, not lower or out | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
While I'm sure everyone will disagree on the exact placement, I think the overall list is more important, and I do think it's a pretty good list. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On March 17 2012 23:14 KalWarkov wrote: @tree.hugger: IdrA: Probably yes. SeleCt: hm, probably. Dimaga: It seems like it, but he always delivers offline somehow. maybe a tiny bit. SaSe: Didnt show anything tbh. i like his play and his style, therefore i put im higher than he probably should be DeMusliM/White-Ra: hard to judge, i disagree with demu though. Feast: much too high - others argue hes much too low. look at his recent results! Sheth: 1 allkill - what else did he show? watch at what he did (after i posted this) at redbull lan. i think you rly tend to overrate him cause hes a mannerbear and had 1 huge (online) result lately. BratOK: you didnt watch him play lately, right? you wont see him often, but when u see him, he delivers HasuObs: watch team-game results, aside from losing to illusion, he always wins somehow, even against koreans. Furthermore, he has decent offline results. ClouD: You probably dont even know him. Impressive results lately, if anything, hes rated too low. Strelok: well, hes still a very solid player and even beat lucky in assembly i believe, although still not making it out of the groups (very hard groups). i still think he belongs here, hard to judge. Nightend: i agree, he feels a little low. ToD/TiTaN: Probably, but there was no room left in the little higher ranks :D Results aren't everything. Players become good before they achieve results, only rarely the other way around. A good ranking shouldn't list results or be too overly based on results, imo, because that tells us what we already know. A really good ranking should tell us who is good at the moment, and then be borne out by the results of the following events. I'm a firm believer in figuring out how good someone is by watching them, and not by putting too much stock into their finishes or TLPD. DIMAGA - I think he has flaws in his play that he hasn't corrected in a year. He doesn't manage large armies so well; that's huge. He's the world champion of losing large armies with no micro. He rarely ever harasses; he loses too often against smart players because they know they can get away with a ton and just hold his single, strong attack. I think DIMAGA gets terribly inconsistent. I'd place him behind Nerchio and Sheth, neither of whom have such gaping flaws in their play. SaSe - #10 is probably a good placement actually, but he could edge up a few spots. His control is among the best in the world, and he's one of the smartest and most dedicated players in the game, which tells me that he's not going to lose his form any time soon. Sheth - Actually had the second best record for TL in all the recent teamleagues; better than Ret and Zenio, and only behind HerO. It wasn't just the all-kill. Move Sheth to Nerchio's spot, put Nerchio in DIMAGA's spot, and move DIMAGA to Sheth's current spot. Sheth is playing better than IdrA at the moment too. All his match-ups are good, he doesn't have one really bad MU. Brat.Ok - Many people who watch what little we get to see of him alway say he's the most underrated player, yet he never achieves results that would in any way validate this. So whenever he plays, I pay special attention to him, because I keep believing that he's got this top gear that's going to blow me away. I've never seen it. He's good, but man, he's not that great. Hasu - I just can't stand Hasu or DarKFoRcE. They're so similar to me; two players with one super safety style that's remained identical forever. And yeah, it works for them, but I tend to appreciate players with potential to win things more than players who tread water at a high-ish level. I'll be stunned if either of these two win a large tournament. They're the ideal players for group stages, but they're just never ever going to win something unless they become more dynamic. ClouD - Of course I know who ClouD is, I hung out with him and Lip at Dreamhack! He's the cookie monster toss! But he's not in the top 30 players at the moment. He's pretty solid, and he can play some really good games, but I don't think he's so amazing. All of the players I mentioned as ones you left out are players that should beat ClouD handily. Strelok - So disappointing lately, and I have nothing against the guy. Still unsieges all his tanks at once. Hasn't looked so good in months. Again, everyone I mentioned as players you should've included; they could all beat Strelok. | ||
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anApple
Singapore275 Posts
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
@tree.hugger i personally disagree about sheth being higher than dimaga, but maybe thats because i follow dimaga more than sheth and dimaga is a more established progamer imo. i agree with your opinion on cloud tho. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On March 19 2012 01:08 Kaitokid wrote: Are you DiaBoLuS on eu ladder KalWarkov? if you are then props to you sir, you have a lot of knowledge about the sc2 scene while you play the game at a pretty high level yourself @tree.hugger i personally disagree about sheth being higher than dimaga, but maybe thats because i follow dimaga more than sheth and dimaga is a more established progamer imo. i agree with your opinion on cloud tho. no im not. seems like i overrated select a bit :/ | ||
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Nizzy
United States839 Posts
Love watching Jinro, big fan, however I don't think people realize how far he's fallen off the map. | ||
Poopi
France12738 Posts
On March 18 2012 00:34 Nibbler89 wrote: Is this based on actual skill or on odds of being able to win a tournament. If it's on tournament win odds(assuming koreans are playing) I'd take out jinro, happy, stelok, cloud, kas and replace with elfi,bling,haypro, major, kiwikaki. for 15 protoss, 10 zerg and 5 terran, which is more accurate and reflective of foreigner success I think. If it's based on actual skill I'd probably take out bunch of the protoss put back terran, along with illusion, kawaii, dde, qxc, naama. Since they practice on korea and are actually good not just because P seems to "suit" foreigners much better. If it was a tournament with no Koreans also the terrans odds would go up. Lol if it's a ranking on odds of being able to win a tournament with koreans in it, there is only room for Stephano, NaNiwa and Huk (but imo only Stephano & NaNiwa, arguable though :D) edit2 : + ThorZain but he is terran so not sure lol. I think it's tree.hugger who had more or less the same opinion as me, with your list in spoiler and green color for underrated / red for overrated players so I won't repeat what he said. edit : oh and currently for the players being able to win a tourney, because A LOT of other foreigners will be eligible for that list soon, SaSe, ToD, maybe Major, but not yet. | ||
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