EPTBronze Part 3: Casually Cruel - Page 8
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iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
Oh bronze leaguers | ||
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ExorArgus
Canada46 Posts
Good blogs, I'm still confused that worker rushing still works. | ||
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BTCOMM
United States25 Posts
On March 10 2012 10:09 architecture wrote: There's a way to tie a shoelace in one motion. If i told you hey all you have to do is this one motion, and you will be able to do this, what do you think responses in real life will be like? Not very different I imagine. Some people won't care, they don't see why they need to do it. Some people will be mad that you are showing them something new. Some people won't be able to do it the first time, even after you show them or tell them it. One difference is that attack moving is so much easier than to tie it in 1 motion if you have never learned it before. On March 11 2012 01:13 ExorArgus wrote: Lol that part about WoW reminded me that there is no skill in wow, only time and knowledge XD Good blogs, I'm still confused that worker rushing still works. Well, I would say knowlege is very important in starcraft and in a way your knowlege can be seen as part of your skill. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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BTCOMM
United States25 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:22 docvoc wrote: I remember when i was like this, day9, husky all that didn't help because i had no idea how to play the basics of the game well enough, basically that all changed when i got out of bronze and started using 3 gate robo 1 base all in. The difference here is that what makes getting out of bronze hard is that the league doesn't reward playing well, it rewards knowing how to beat cheese any way possible, the league is either filled with people who cannon rush, 6 pool, or 5 rax that those who use a legit strategy that encourages a next step are at the WAYYY top of the bronze ladder, i think i was top 3 for idk how long before i made it to silver and then gold within a week span or so. I would argue that if you know how to beat cheese you are playing reletively well compared to other bronze leaguers and you will be rewarded for it. | ||
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HerpDerp
United States8 Posts
 From his perspective (we talked about this day it happened and I figured it was you who did it), he took it as a chance to learn and he won't be beat by worker rushes ever again. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Part of the problem may be just over-microing, which heaps of lowbie players do. Instead of simply a-moving they screw around with targetting and actually make their units less efficient. Stubbornly laddering on thinking that their knowledge/mechanics are 'ok' is probably the other. When noobs lose it's to luck/imba/builds/timings/distractions/fags/cheese/lag etc They refuse to accept responsibility for their losses and until they do they'll never start learning from them. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
I mean, if you're looking for BM then team leagues are a great place to find it. I have never seen such foul language as that from an upset teammate. In all fairness, I never worker rushed in bronze... | ||
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TacticalBadger
18 Posts
The matchmaking system is another culprit. No matter what idiotic strategy you use, the matchmaking system will always find you someone who will lose to it. It's safe to assume, that most bronze player have no idea how SC2 matchmaking works and therefore assume, that their chosen strategy is effective, because it lets them win. I believe that it's the only way to explain the fact, that there bronze players with 1000+ wins over several seasons. | ||
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Aalo
United States33 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
The WoW issue was something that made me really dislike WoW PvE because new content has to be balanced around the assumption that people are reading a bunch of out-of-game information from unofficial sources. Checking EJ for optimal spec, rotation and gear selection, watching videos and reading guides to learn how to do encounters, and customizing the UI in a million different ways to minimize your mistakes are all incredibly efficient ways to accomplish more in the game. But it's all cheating. I believe that reading a guide should be a last ditch effort and it should be done only to experience content that is otherwise off limits. On the other hand, lines get blurred by the social aspect of MMO's. If a guy in your guild figures something out, it's not fair to call you a cheater for listening to him explain it. Players are supposed to work as a team. It's just that the web has made it far too easy for any player to tell every player what they know. 99.99% of the information being shared is between strangers. It's not social. I won't push the cheating accusation but I think it's pretty clear that a ton of WoW players do not consider all that research as part of the game. But if they don't research then they are significantly worse than everyone who does, sometimes to the point that they get kicked out of groups and blacklisted. That's because, as you say, knowledge is so much more important than skill. So I think there are three perfectly reasonable groups: (1)Players who race to complete content (they naturally have no knowledge of uncompleted content but they do research everything that is possible to research) (2)Players who copy everything group 1 does in order to accomplish as many things as efficiently as possible (3)Players who just play the game, figuring things out for themselves Of course there is a vast amount of gray area between these groups. Most players probably land between groups 2 and 3. They aren't trying their absolute best to optimize but they do use a lot of outside resources. Although most players aren't really making an effort to figure things out for themselves. They either copy something or they're bad at it. Players in group 3 are more hardcore than those in group 2, even though they have worse gear and progression. Group 2's pride for being so much better than group 3 is bizarre. They must know how little skill it takes to play the game and how little knowledge they've gained by themselves. Their condescension is unreasonable because it assumes everyone plays only after they've consulted a guide. But then there's the catch: Blizzard makes the raids require an amount of knowledge that an average guild is not willing (or able) to figure out for themselves. So that assumption is not so unreasonable for WoW. If Blizzard lowers the knowledge ceiling, hardcore players will be unhappy. Well, everyone might be unhappy if it makes the game less interesting. If Blizzard raises the skill ceiling, the average player will be unhappy. Heroics and hard modes could be a way to raise the skill ceiling without letting content go to waste. But I don't think they've been particularly successful at raising the skill ceiling because a lot of the skill problem is with the UI, not the encounters. I land very close to a pure group 3 player. But it is nearly impossible to find a big enough group of people to form a guild under the condition that no one ever consults a non-Blizzard resource except each other. I'm sure some exist but I'm also sure that they knew each other before they formed the guild. Oh well! P.S. For the record, I don't play WoW anymore. | ||
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johnnywup
United States3858 Posts
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Risljaninasim
Netherlands228 Posts
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salvulant
United States2 Posts
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Vojjin
Sweden5 Posts
The people in our Raid group (me included) all study EJ and several different sites to keep up to date on the best way to play in different encounters. For us it is a part of the game we enjoy. Saying it is cheating to look at an encounter guide is like saying Liquipedia's strategy sections shold be deleted, since it enables a player to simply look up what to do insted of figuring it out for himself. In a similar fashion, players should stop copying what they see pro-players do if this was the proper way to look at things. I can tell you from first hand experience that watching a strategy guide does not make you a master of the encounter. Just like reading a complete build order will not make you a master of whatever build you are studying. Now, about the skill ceiling you talk about. It doesn't exist. instead there are several skill levels that can all be realted to "Time available". A person who has time to spend will (often) be more skiled than a player who has very small amounts of time to spend. Therefore Blizzard has introduced different difficulty levels for raids. There are currently 3: LFR (Looking For Raid) is the easiest, this mode requires VERY little skill to complete, but it enables people with very little time to spend to see the content they are paying Blizzard to create. Normal Mode is simply Normal difficulty. Heroic is for the people who wants to push themselves to the edge. Imo, this is the perfect way for Blizzard to go about this, of course there will still be people who fit best somewhere between Normal and Heroic and so on and so forth. But with 10+ million players, it will be very difficult to appease all of them perfectly. Thats my 2 cents =) | ||
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Gheed
United States972 Posts
On March 11 2012 08:23 Liquid`NonY wrote: Well written as always. The WoW issue was something that made me really dislike WoW PvE because new content has to be balanced around the assumption that people are reading a bunch of out-of-game information from unofficial sources. Checking EJ for optimal spec, rotation and gear selection, watching videos and reading guides to learn how to do encounters, and customizing the UI in a million different ways to minimize your mistakes are all incredibly efficient ways to accomplish more in the game. But it's all cheating. I believe that reading a guide should be a last ditch effort and it should be done only to experience content that is otherwise off limits. On the other hand, lines get blurred by the social aspect of MMO's. If a guy in your guild figures something out, it's not fair to call you a cheater for listening to him explain it. Players are supposed to work as a team. It's just that the web has made it far too easy for any player to tell every player what they know. 99.99% of the information being shared is between strangers. It's not social. I won't push the cheating accusation but I think it's pretty clear that a ton of WoW players do not consider all that research as part of the game. But if they don't research then they are significantly worse than everyone who does, sometimes to the point that they get kicked out of groups and blacklisted. That's because, as you say, knowledge is so much more important than skill. So I think there are three perfectly reasonable groups: (1)Players who race to complete content (they naturally have no knowledge of uncompleted content but they do research everything that is possible to research) (2)Players who copy everything group 1 does in order to accomplish as many things as efficiently as possible (3)Players who just play the game, figuring things out for themselves Of course there is a vast amount of gray area between these groups. Most players probably land between groups 2 and 3. They aren't trying their absolute best to optimize but they do use a lot of outside resources. Although most players aren't really making an effort to figure things out for themselves. They either copy something or they're bad at it. Players in group 3 are more hardcore than those in group 2, even though they have worse gear and progression. Group 2's pride for being so much better than group 3 is bizarre. They must know how little skill it takes to play the game and how little knowledge they've gained by themselves. Their condescension is unreasonable because it assumes everyone plays only after they've consulted a guide. But then there's the catch: Blizzard makes the raids require an amount of knowledge that an average guild is not willing (or able) to figure out for themselves. So that assumption is not so unreasonable for WoW. If Blizzard lowers the knowledge ceiling, hardcore players will be unhappy. Well, everyone might be unhappy if it makes the game less interesting. If Blizzard raises the skill ceiling, the average player will be unhappy. Heroics and hard modes could be a way to raise the skill ceiling without letting content go to waste. But I don't think they've been particularly successful at raising the skill ceiling because a lot of the skill problem is with the UI, not the encounters. I land very close to a pure group 3 player. But it is nearly impossible to find a big enough group of people to form a guild under the condition that no one ever consults a non-Blizzard resource except each other. I'm sure some exist but I'm also sure that they knew each other before they formed the guild. Oh well! P.S. For the record, I don't play WoW anymore. Some of the most fun I had in WoW was when Cataclysm first came out. I was one of the nerds who poopsocked my way to 85 within the span of a day. Because everyone who had also done so was a WoW veteran, the random dungeon finder was filled with people who, for the first time in years, were clueless about the encounters but knowledgeable about their characters. People were willing to stick around and work with the random group composition to eventually complete the dungeons. Raids, too, no longer required a link to a prior achievement because nobody had any. There were more external resources available with regards to the raids, but a great deal of time was still spent discussing strategies, like which dragon order to use on Halfus. Not sure if you quit playing before Cata came out or not, but you get the idea: a lot of people are willing to spend time to figure things out on their own, at least if they are forced to do so. Eventually though, as more people leveled up the dungeon finder and the potential raid member pool filled up with impatient people who had been coddled by the previous expansion which was much easier. People became so frustrated at this group of people that the DPS queues for randoms reached the one hour mark at prime time. Nobody wanted to play with people who were deemed "Wrath babies." As you commented, the people who want to learn things on their own were thrown in with people who either a., already knew the fights by this point, b., would rather read a guide than learn on their own, or c., refused to put any effort to learning anything. In response, everyone retreated into guild runs or quit playing altogether. In response to the complaining that things were "too hard," Blizzard responded by nerfing the heroics. Then they nerfed the raids. Nerfing tier 11 was one of the reasons why TB quit playing WoW, because it showed that philosophically Blizzard would rather just nerf things into oblivion than create content tiers that a group of people could progress through. Their latest trend has been to just nerf everything, even the current content tier, which leaves the game in a completely whacked state. You have 5 man heroics/the new raidfinder which are so easy that they're boring. Then you have normal modes which are pretty easy, too. They're enjoyable at first, but they become stale once you get the fights down. Then you have heroic raids which are a huge rampup in terms of difficulty and commitment. A few months after Cata's release, I wrote an very long piece from the perspective of a tank that discussed, among other things, how the community is largely intolerant of people learning things on their own. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1965624671?page=1 if anyone is interested. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
what actually happened, is they stood in the fire for 3 times as long as they needed (draining healer mana) were generally very slow selecting targets (the biggest problem i see, people taking 2 seconds to hit the tab key) and then sloppy execution of their rotation. in their mind, they have moved at the right times, attacked the correct mob, and used the correct rotation. but what really happened was everything took 2,3 even 4 seconds longer than it should. you see this same problem in low level starcraft. this guy will read up how to stop a 2 rax attack, and presume their play was exactly what they read up about. but its so sloppy, so lacking the give a fuck required to play as fast as possible, that its actually almost unrecognizable from what was written on the internet. im unsure if its because they honestly dont see the difference, are unable to 'be' faster, or if their ego refuses to allow them to believe they arent as good as other people. i think it some mixture of the three, resulting in this cartmanesque problem of immense rage when confronted by irrifutable proof of their badness. this attitude is what stops them from improving overall. i think the wow pve'r and the bronze level starcraft player comparison is very apt. | ||
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box-killa
Australia13 Posts
You also have to look at context. For some, having fun is getting kills (league of legends example), for others its showing off items (wow), and for others its winning(sc2). Having fun does not involve learning, or in other words, the only step in the goal, is to achieve the goal. To sum it up, for a game like super mario, you don't fall in the same hole 100 times, because you remember the hole is there after the first few times. In a game like starcraft, this is not the case because learning is not clear, and because the true improvement is masked by the desire for items(wow) and for wins(sc2). | ||
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