• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:14
CEST 22:14
KST 05:14
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off6[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event18
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax5Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris30Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax What mix of new and old maps do you want in the next 1v1 ladder pool? (SC2) : A Eulogy for the Six Pool Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away 2v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Monday Nights Weeklies
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Flash On His 2010 "God" Form, Mind Games, vs JD BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off No Rain in ASL20?
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group E [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro24 Group D [ASL20] Ro24 Group B
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The year 2050 European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment"
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Breaking the Meta: Non-Stand…
TrAiDoS
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2974 users

War Of The Machines: SC2 Parallel

Blogs > Setev
Post a Reply
Setev
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Malaysia390 Posts
March 05 2012 22:03 GMT
#1
Hi guys,

*Start of disclaimer
This is my first time writing a blog, and I am simply writing down my thoughts, opinions and imagination, sometimes backed by thorough research and sometimes not at all. So please excuse any statements I made in this blog that offends any parties dead or alive, past, present, and future. Oh, also forgive me for the (often) awkward language and occasional grammatical error.
*End of disclaimer

I just read the summary for the book on robotic warfare "Wired for War" by PW Singer, as well as Daniel Suarez's techno thrillers "Daemon" and "Freedom". In those books, especially Daniel's novels, highlighted the virtues of distributed systems over centralized systems in robotic and cyber warfare while Singer tried to remain neutral and made a case of combining the two systems to make a hybrid system which supposedly combines the advantages of both systems.

For those who haven't read the books, centralized systems means that there is a controller (human or otherwise) controlling a robot like a RV car. This is the system used by modern bomb squads to control and interact with the bomb disposal bot. On the other hand, distributed systems are much more exciting because they are autonomous systems and are kinda like Skynet - there is no central hub, and to destroy the system means having to destroy every single combat unit. I'll copy and paste a portion of Singer's book to explain distributed systems:

+ Show Spoiler +
As one Army colonel asks, “Obviously the birds lack published doctrine and are not receiving instructions from their flight leader, so how can they accomplish the kind of self-organization necessary for flocking?” The answer actually comes from a researcher, Craig Reynolds, who built a program for what he called “boids,” or artificial birds. As an Army report on the experience described, all the boids needed to do to organize themselves together as a flock was for each individual to follow three simple rules:

1. Separation: Don’t get too close to any object, including other boids;
2. Alignment: Try to match the speed and direction of nearby boids; and
3. Cohesion: Head for the perceived center of mass of the boids in your immediate neighborhood.

”This basic boid system worked so well that it was also used in the movie Batman Returns to create the realistic bat sequences.


And more:

+ Show Spoiler +
The Santa Fe Institute carried out a study on these proliferated autonomous weapons (PRAWNS), which shows how this concept might work in robotic warfare (Lockheed Martin has a similar program on robot swarms funded by DARPA, called the “Wolves of War”).

While each PRAWN would be very simple, and almost dumb (indeed, their artificial intelligence would be less than the systems already on the market today), the sum of their swarm would be far more effective than any single system. Why drive a single SWORDS or Packbot into a building, room by room, to see if an enemy is hiding there, when a soldier could let loose a swarm of tiny robots that would scramble out and automatically search on their own?


Meanwhile, in real life, with the rise of drones and robotics usage in recent wars, it seems that we are moving towards fighting proxy wars, where the business of war can be conducted between parties without the loss of human lives on the battlefield. Would this make wars more likely to happen? I think that is exactly what will happen. After all, violence solved more disputes than any diplomatic efforts. Its a quote I found in Sun Tzu's Art Of War. I think.

Now, there are a lot of ramifications in "outsourcing" the duty of soldiering to machines. To simplify, I will categorize said ramifications into 3 groups: Social, Economic, and Political ramifications.

Since this is my first ever blog, I won't talk about those boring, factual topics. Instead, I want to talk about this topic in a more fun manner.

Imagine that we are a defense contractor in the 23rd century. We have all the funding, political leverage and technological expertise we need to design a machine army from scratch, presumably to defend against a Protoss or Zerg invasion. So, what design philosophy shall we pursue?

Basic Land Based Fighting Units

There are two schools of thought that I encountered when searching the Internet - the basic fighting unit either is a humanoid, using contemporary weapons and tactics like a marine bot; or it could take the form of a vehicle or insect, like a hellion or stalker or zergling bot.

On another tangent, Scientific American reports that "soft bodied, shape-shifing" robots will be soon developed to bypass clunky gears, wheels, treads and components that use up a lot of energy to operate.

URL:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=shape-shifting-robot-shows-spine

According to Daniel H Wilson, he has 5 good reasons why humanoid robots will be the main fighting units on the battlefield of the future.

1. There is a one-to-one mapping between the human and the humanoid body.
2. Humanoid robots take advantage of human environments and equipment.
3. Humanoid robots are easier to train.
4. Teamwork is easier between humans and humanoids.
5. The locals could potentially interact with humanoid robots

Personally, I disagree with most of Daniel's reasons.

Reason number one,
I don't think that the human body allows for effective movement. A leonine body will allow faster travel across almost all types of terrain, although a valid argument is that the human body is built for endurance running, and can provide more mileage per unit energy. I wonder, will you rather build a zergling (4 legged leonine) or a marine (bipedal humanoid) or a hellion (wheeled) as your primary land based robotic fighting unit?

Reason number two.
I partially agree with this point. Guns are good to have in a war. The ability to kill your enemy at range and quickly had always been the key to victory for most wars. The invention of the bow and arrow allowed Gengis Khan and his Mongols to conquer and build the largest medieval empire known to man. Improvements in gun technology allowed the American settlers to defeat and drive out American Indians. However, in a war where the combatants don't really stop fighting when they were maimed by bullets, will guns be as effective?

If a marine bot shot a charging zergling bot a few times, but failed to total the zergling bot, who will emerge the winner in the close quarters combat? Its still not safe to say that the marine bot will win. Plus, guns need ammunition, which will require more elaborate logistics to supply, compared to blades.

Before this gets too long, I'll stop here and continue next time. Although I write this mainly to put my thoughts to paper (as I intend to write SF novels in the far future), please feel free to provide inputs.


*****
I'm the King Of Nerds
Tomba
Profile Joined January 2012
Norway106 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-05 22:26:48
March 05 2012 22:24 GMT
#2
Interesting stuff you got here. I think the better bot weapon would be the one disconnected from humans and doing stuff on their own(only taking orders perhaps), because humans are slow and not very effective and will most likely make errors.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-05 22:24:58
March 05 2012 22:24 GMT
#3
I think your quotation about wars solving more disputes is from Starship Troopers.

I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Ixtlilton
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States67 Posts
March 05 2012 22:30 GMT
#4
I read the whole thing and it seemed somewhat interesting, but I feel the need to point out that bows and arrows predate recorded history, and Ghengis Khan lived very much so in recorded history. I can't really comment on the rest, since it all seems to be mainly based on speculation, especially your points. I can only really say that I think combat robots that cannot be shut down through a central mechanism seems like a bad idea, and who says you need hands when you can integrate guns into just about anywhere on a robot?
How about a nice slice of quiche?
TG Manny
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States325 Posts
March 05 2012 22:43 GMT
#5
As far as war becoming more likely, I disagree. However I'll limit my reasoning to a few simple statements. First, the more powerful everyone is the more careful they become toward each other. Second, it is not nearly as profitable in either monetary wealth or power to directly go to war with the other. In SC2 terms, it is "Cheesing" your opponent--but the game isn't 1v1 and the opponent has backup. Better to macro and get ahead in economy, upgrades, or tech and "timing attack".

Second, assuming the time of the setting it is safe to say that people have reached the singularity (at least the ability is there whether ethics says it is good to do so or not). Let us assume that drones are actually humane brains in mechanical systems--the top tier fighting machine that feels no fatigue and can be many places at once. Let us also assume we're still on the same relative earth and not intergalactic society yet, it is almost certain the main units of destruction will be unified machines of flight as well as aquatic movement. Surgical strikes will be so potent and precise that there would be no need to have a standing ground army that is of the same discipline (if at all).

One thing that games don't take into much consideration, SC2 especially, is that air-fighters are the most lethal and potent strikers that can go in and out in the blink of an eye and raze a city, or a single building, or just a single office...Submarines are just as potent in the sense of being a way to control the air as well as be used for intelligence at key locales.

Therefore I think that the primary unit of "ground war" will be something that works as a hyper mobile and long distance AA with high precision. If it had to be anything bio-mechanical I would bet that a genetic variation of the human would be ideal so that there would be tight reflexes, tons of utility in its dexterity, and ability to be hidden very quickly. 4-legged be damned, if I have a gun and a way to stop your claws/teeth from getting into my skin (chasis?) I won't be going down in a fight so easy and be able to keep you from coming in at all.

Singularity is at hand...
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 46m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 614
IndyStarCraft 160
UpATreeSC 122
JuggernautJason59
ProTech37
Nathanias 27
CosmosSc2 19
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 413
Larva 291
Dewaltoss 166
TY 49
Zeus 35
NaDa 14
Dota 2
Pyrionflax183
capcasts163
Counter-Strike
fl0m1698
pashabiceps1166
Stewie2K585
flusha285
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu455
Other Games
Grubby2797
FrodaN1665
summit1g751
B2W.Neo638
Sick325
KnowMe137
C9.Mang0105
QueenE64
ZombieGrub22
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 35
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 23 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 11
• Reevou 5
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 16
• Pr0nogo 5
• Michael_bg 3
• FirePhoenix1
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22133
• WagamamaTV772
• Noizen36
League of Legends
• TFBlade955
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie1108
• Shiphtur226
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
3h 46m
Afreeca Starleague
13h 46m
hero vs Alone
Royal vs Barracks
Replay Cast
1d 3h
The PondCast
1d 13h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 14h
Replay Cast
2 days
LiuLi Cup
2 days
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs herO
Cure vs Rogue
Classic vs HeRoMaRinE
Cosmonarchy
2 days
OyAji vs Sziky
Sziky vs WolFix
WolFix vs OyAji
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Hawk vs Team Bonyth
[ Show More ]
SC Evo League
3 days
TaeJa vs Cure
Rogue vs threepoint
ByuN vs Creator
MaNa vs Classic
Maestros of the Game
3 days
ShoWTimE vs Cham
GuMiho vs Ryung
Zoun vs Spirit
Rogue vs MaNa
[BSL 2025] Weekly
3 days
SC Evo League
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 3
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
Acropolis #4 - TS1
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
EC S1
Sisters' Call Cup
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.