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Starcraft 2 is young

Blogs > omgimonfire15
Post a Reply
omgimonfire15
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States233 Posts
January 26 2012 02:21 GMT
#1
I noticed a massive influx of why SC2 is designed terribly/sucks/etc threads these days and I would like to bring us back to the good old days of SC1. I would like to note, when it was first released and draw some comparisons to SC2 since its release. Please note, I was very young at the time and I don’t know the full details of how SC1 developed into what it is today. I only played the game casually for the custom games and campaign. Most of my data is taken from liquidpedia (both SC1 and SC2) and Wikipedia.

Starcraft 1-released March 31st 1998. I would consider this the “beta” period of Brood War despite there being a 3 year development period. There was some ridiculous stuff during this time that it could hardly be called a balanced game at all. Map imbalances, unit imbalances, building cost imbalances, etc. However, SC1 was not a well known game with hardly any interest. There was no starleague, no professionals, only casual gamers (and a couple hardcore I guess) that played the game.

Patch 1.01-1.03
Release: 1998-04-23
+ Show Spoiler +
Changes:
 Fixed cheat that allowed one player in a multiplayer game to see the map.
 Fixed bug that allowed players to receive extra resources when canceling building construction multiple times by exploiting lag in a multi-player game.
 Fixed pathing problem related crash bug that was most commonly exhibited in Terran 10.
 Fixed C Runtime Library crash bug exhibited during saved games when year was greater than 2098.
 Fixed sprite allocation errors that prevent normal combat and creation of units.
 Fixed occasional hang when joining and leaving Battle.net.
 Enemy Science Vessels no longer continually unmask after irradiating units.
 Missile turrets controlled by the AI properly acquire targets.
 Fixed blank game names in Battle.net game list.
 Game names with high ASCII characters now show up properly.


1.02
Release: 1998-08-24
+ Show Spoiler +
Changes:
 Flying units no longer receive 'cover' from terrain features.
 Fixed the bug when cancelling a guardian in high latency games that killed the Mutalisk and gave multiple refunds.
 Fixed the bug that could sometimes cause a map editor, hit point modified siege tank's hit points to be incorrect after transforming.
 Time elapsed while the game is paused no longer counts toward total elapsed game time.
 Increased the cost of a Zerg Hatchery from 300 to 350 minerals.
 Changed the damage type of the Photon Cannon weapon system from explosion to normal.
 Preplaced heroes for the AI will now auto acquire targets and defend themselves.
 Fixed a bug that could potentially, in high latency games, over-charge zerg players when morphing larva into units.
 Modified the 'Free For All' game type so that the rules of diplomacy apply to computer players. (Computer players are no longer allied in FFA.) Also, made FFA available for single player custom games.
 Fixed the crash that occurred when selecting a unit type, that would normally have shields, configured to have 0 shields via the map editor.
 Fixed the bug that bumped people back to the race select screen after they had completed a single player campaign mission.
 (Battle.net) Create game screen will now display ladder game speed as 'Fast' instead of 'Faster'.
 (Battle.net) Profile draw code will now handle different sized destination windows.
 Fixed 'attach to incomplete addon' crash bug.
 Added three new Computer AI scripts for use with the map editor (Protoss Insane, Terran Insane, Zerg Insane) to be used in custom campaign levels.
 Fixed bug that played the incorrect 'complete' sound for addons.
 Fixed bug that prevented rescued tanks and goliaths from acquiring targets correctly.
 Fixed bug that caused StarCraft to allocate unnecessary amounts of memory while running minimized.
 Fixed bug that could cause maps with a large number of pre-placed units to crash at load time.
 Fixed bug that, in rare cases, could cause game to crash when certain types of units died.
 Fixed bug that caused access violation when maps with unplaceable units were loaded.
 Fixed bug that caused access violation when any zerg air unit died while cloaked by an arbiter.
 (StarEdit) Fixed bug that prevented changes to Norad II Hero unit weapon damage fields
 (StarEdit) Mineral patches and geyser are now limited to 50,000.
 (StarEdit) Added exception handler.
 (StarEdit) Fixed bug that made it impossible to remove Map Revealers via a trigger.
 (StarEdit) Fixed bug that could cause triggers to 'disappear' on systems using large fonts.
 (StarEdit) Fixed bug that allows powerups to be placed in invalid locations on high terrain
 (StarInst) Fixed minor over-calculation of disk space used by saved games for uninstall.
 (StarInst) Moved file pre-cache requests to the install scripts.
 (StarInst) Added support for multiple events per screen item without the use of sub-scripts.
 (StarInst) Eliminated unnecessary screen refreshes.


1.03
Release: 1998-10-14
+ Show Spoiler +
Changes:
 Localized versions should all see Battle.net properly now (all buttons translated / all hot keys correct).
 Additionally, chat help and account information should be appearing correctly when connecting to battle.net.
 The length of time you have to leave a game before it counts on your record on battle.net has been reduced from 5 minutes to 2 minutes.
 Very long games using the Terran Insane AI will no longer lock up.
 Custom maps that use the "set next map" trigger will now work properly after loading them from a saved game.
 New ladder maps have been added for Season O3. The old ladder maps have been moved to the OldLadder directory and downgraded to "Blizzard Approved" status. The (8)Green Valleys.scm map has been promoted to "Ladder" status. This means you can no longer play these downgraded maps as ladder maps.
 There are 4 new ladder maps: (4)Ashrigo, (4)Remote Outpost, (2)Gauntlet, (4)Bone Canyon.
 Fixed bug where if Zerg burrowers burrowed just as they decloaked (when leaving an Arbiter's field of influence) it would desync a network game.
 The MOVE UNIT trigger action now behaves correctly with add-ons. Buildings with existing add-ons will detach from the add-on if either the building or the add-on moves. Add-ons under construction will be cancelled.
 Buildings that are created with the CREATE UNIT trigger action or moved with the MOVE UNIT trigger action will attempt to reattach to add-ons of the correct type that are in the correct location.
 Preplaced carriers owned by the Neutral player slot that have an initial hangar count greater than 0 will no longer crash the game.
 Executing a KILL UNIT trigger action immediately followed by a MOVE UNIT trigger action will no longer result in a crash.
 Doodads are no longer affected by the MOVE UNIT trigger action.
 The mission countdown timer now has a maximum value of 9999 (h:m:s)
 Fixed bug that caused Elapsed Time to display incorrectly when finishing a very short mission

Nothing really changed beside bug fixes.
SC1 has been out for about 8 months with no major changes to the massively imbalanced gameplay. This is easily explained by the lack of attention to the scene. The game rated very positively however despite the bugs, glitches, imbalances, etc. Criticisms were though drawn to potential imbalances (150 mineral pool=ez 4 pool), terrible AI pathfinding, and unit structures, whatever that means. Conclusions we can draw? Starcraft 1 would be a horrible game today if nothing changed. Even with the long development period, I would consider those 8 months a beta and bugfixing era.



Starcraft Brood War is released on November 30th, 1998. Starcraft is a popular game, but there is a distinct lack of a proscene. That’s all about the change though.

Patch 1.04 on December 17th, 1998:
+ Show Spoiler +
Changes:
 StarCraft compatibility with Brood War implemented.
 Resource Text Color changed to Green
 Custom AI has been strengthened...beware.
 Invincible Drone bug has been fixed
 You can select all burrowed units of the same type or cloaked units of the same type by using the Ctrl+select method or by double clicking.
 If you have multiple Carriers or Reavers selected you can build Interceptors and Scarabs for all of them at the same time.
 Cooldown times of units being dropped out of transports corrected.
 Stim Pack causing Firebats to fire slowly corrected.
 Zergling adrenal gland upgrade affects corrected.
 Fixed a bug where the muzzle flash on a full fire bunker aiming south displayed incorrectly.
 Air unit movement near the edge of the map corrected.
 The Ladder directory has been updated with the Season 4 ladder maps. Retired ladder maps have been moved to the OldLadder directory.
Changes to StarEdit (Map Editor):
 New save feature that identifies all 'enhanced' data in the scenario and specifies which versions of StarCraft will be able to load the scenario.
 Addition of the comparing conditional 'exactly' for use in such triggers as: ACCUMULATE, BRING, COMMAND, COUNTDOWN TIMER, DEATHS, ELAPSED TIME, KILL, OPPONENTS, and SCORE.
 Increased number of Switches to 256.
 Increased number of usable locations to 254.
 Added the ability to specify 'Random' in the SET SWITCH trigger action.
 Added the ability to name switches.
 Added the ability to set Fog-of-War for multiple players simultaneously by holding down Control or Shift.
 Added the ability to re-name any unit.
New triggers:
 ORDER UNIT (Move to, Patrol to, Attack to)
 The ability to specify a quantity for the following actions: CREATE UNIT, CREATE UNIT W/PROPERITIES, MOVE UNIT, KILL UNITS AT LOCATION, REMOVE UNITS AT LOCATION.
 PAUSE/UNPAUSE TIMER
 MODIFY UNIT ENERGY
 MODIFY HANGER COUNT
 MODIFY UNIT HIT POINTS
 GIVE UNITS TO PLAYER
 MODIFY UNIT RESOURCES
 MODIFY UNIT SHIELD POINTS
 SET ALLIANCE STATUS
 COMMENT TRIGGER
 END IN DRAW
 SET UNIT DEATHS
 You can now select locations obscured by other locations.
 Location operations are now undoable.
 You can now explicitly sort Conditions.
 You can remove all Map Revealers from a map (really!).
 The Unit and Hero Settings dialog has been enhanced.
 A new StarEdit help file with info on these triggers and all the new features in StarEdit can be downloaded from our FTP site.
Balance Changes:

 Wraith:
 Decreased cost to 150 minerals, 100 gas.
 Increased cooldown rate of ground attack.
 Increased air to air damage to 20.
 Dropship:
 Increased speed slightly.
 Science Vessel:
 Decreased cost to 100 minerals, 225 gas.
 Increased acceleration
 Increased overall damage of Irradiate
 Increased sight radius
 Battlecruiser:
 Increased starting armor to 3
 Increased Yamato Cannon damage to 260
 Goliath:
 Increased ground damage to 12
 Increased effectiveness of weapon upgrade on ground to air weapon system
 Nuke:
 Nuclear Missiles build faster
 ComSat:
 Decreased energy cost to 50
 Starport:
 Decrease cost of Starport to 150 minerals, 100 gas
 Decreased add-on cost of Control Tower to 50 minerals, 50 gas
 Decreased build time
 Archon:
 Increased acceleration
 Dragoon:
 Decreased cost to 125 minerals, 50 gas
 Decreased build time
 Increased range upgrade (Singularity Charge) by 1
 High Templar:
 Decreased energy cost of Hallucination to 100
 Scout:
 Increased Air to Air damage to 28
 Base Armor of Scout changed from 1 to 0
 Increased shields to 100 and hit points to 150
 Increased cooldown rate of ground attack
 Carrier:
 Changed build cost to 350 minerals, and 250 gas
 Increased hit points of Carrier to 300
 Increased starting armor of Carrier to 4
 Increased Interceptor shields and hitpoints to 40
 Increased Interceptor damage to 6
 Decreased Interceptor cost to 25
 Arbiter:
 Decreased cost to 100 minerals, 350 gas
 Shuttle:
 Increased build time
 Reaver:
 Increased build time
 Templar Archives:
 Increased cost to 150 minerals, 200 gas.
 Citadel of Adun:
 Decreased cost to 150 minerals, 100 gas.
 Stargate:
 Decreased cost to 150 minerals, 150 gas
 Decreased build time
 Robotics Facility:
 Increased build time
 Robotics Support Bay:
 Increased cost to 150 minerals, 100 gas
 Observatory:
 Decreased cost to 50 minerals, 100 gas
 Forge:
 Decreased cost to 150 minerals
 Photon Cannon:
 Decreased build time
 Fleet Beacon:
 Decreased cost of "Increased Carrier capacity" upgrade to 100 minerals, 100 gas
 Decreased research time of "Increased Carrier capacity" upgrade
 Shield Battery:
 Increased starting energy to 100
 Increased effective range of “Recharge Shields” ability
 Overlord:
 Increased speed bonus for "Pneumatized Carapace" upgrade
 Decreased research time of "Ventral Sacs" upgrade
 Scourge:
 Increase hit points to 25
 Hydralisk:
 Increased build time
 Queen:
 Increased range of Broodling by 1
 Increase energy cost of Parasite to 75
 Decreased Parasite casting range to 12
 Defiler:
 Increased cost to 50 minerals, 150 gas
 Hatchery:
 Decreased the speed at which the Hatchery/Lair/Hive spawn new larva
 Decreased build cost to 300 minerals
 Increased build time
 Sunken Colony:
 Decreased cost of Sunken Colony upgrade to 50 minerals
 Decreased build time
 Increased attack rate of Sunken Colony
 Increased damage to 40
 Spore Colony:
 Decreased build time
 Changed damage type to normal
 Greater Spire:
 Increased build time

Dang look at all those changes! Blizzard seemed to have finally realized that there were massive imperfections in their game. Still a ton of imbalances, but we are getting somewhere.
Patch 1.05-1.07
Release: 1999-05-15
+ Show Spoiler +
Changes:
 Reduced Academy cost to 150 minerals.
 Reduced Science Facility cost to 100 minerals, 150 gas.
 Reduced Spider Mine research cost to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
 Reduced the cooldown for units on unload from a transport.
 Added a limit so games can only be saved at most once every two minutes during a multiplayer game.
 Fixed a bug that caused save game compatibility problems with 1.03 save games loaded into 1.04 and Brood War.
 The 'something for nothing' cheat no longer gives Brood War upgrades in normal StarCraft games.
 When using the 'exactly' modifier in trigger conditions, incomplete units are no longer included in the comparison.
 Hallucinated devourers no longer leave acid spores on targeted units.
 Spider mines are now properly affected by disruption web.
 Neutral medics no longer auto-heal units.
 Added a wire-frame for Infested Duran in a dropship.
 The low memory version of the disruption web art is now correct.
 Terran insane AI no longer locks the system.
 Fixed the bug that allowed terran buildings to move after landing.
 Fixed the bug that incorrectly allowed 'morph to lurker' commands to be issued to units that weren't hydralisks.
 Miscellaneous minor bug fixes.
 (StarEdit) Eliminated dependence on updated comctrl32.dll
 (StarEdit) Now displays language based on installed version of StarCraft rather than operating system setting
 (StarEdit) Fixed a bug in the Player Upgrades dialog that could cause settings for one player to be inadvertently copied to another


1.06
+ Show Spoiler +
Release: 1999-09-30
Changes:
 Adds command completion to Battle.net chat. It can be accessed by pressing the "tab" key.
 Fixes some minor battle.net issues.
 Displays cancel dialog in situations when server is busy.
Feature Changes
 For Top vs. Bottom games, the default chat filter is now 'Chat To Allies'.
 In-game chat messages now show the speaker's name in his/her team color.
 Users can now use the mouse wheel to scroll chat and selection boxes in Windows 98 (or later) and Macintosh OS X.
 Screen shots now use a time/date stamp; they are no longer limited to 100.
 The high-color application icon from the Macintosh version is now used on PC.
 Small corrections to the Lost Temple and Dire Straits maps.
Bug Fixes
 Fixed Hatchery cancellation crash bug.
 Fixed crash that can occur when SCVs are repairing a unit boarding a Dropship.
 Fixed crash when Mac users very quickly cancel connection to Battle.net.
 Fixed a scoring bug that gave Zerg unit points for building cancellation.
 Users can now take screen shots on Macintosh OS X.
 Updated Battle.net account creation information text.
 Logging onto an account closed for a Battle.net Terms of Service violation will now say the account is closed, rather than 'invalid password'.
 Fixed bug preventing Portuguese StarCraft clients from receiving patches from Battle.net. Portuguese users must still patch to this level manually, but subsequent patches can be obtained automatically from Battle.net.
 No longer displays control characters in Battle.net's map description pane.
 Color codes and control codes are no longer allowed in chat messages.
 Fixed a crash in StarEdit when attempting to save modified Blizzard maps.
 Fixed undesired text wrapping in Spanish and Portuguese Battle.net screens.
 Fixed a rare crash in multiplayer games.
Exploits
 Fixed the Nydus Canal cancellation bug that allowed creating a mobile exit.
 Fixed two exploits that allowed players to gain minerals very quickly.
 Fixed exploit that allowed Zerg buildings to become cloaked.
 Fixed exploit that allowed units to kill themselves instantly.
 Fixed exploit that allowed Command Center infestation without a Queen.
 Fixed exploit that allowed Command Center infestation from a distance.
 Fixed exploit that allowed players to float Zerg Drones over obstacles.
 Fixed exploit that allowed worker units to mine at a distance.
 Fixed exploit that allowed Terran buildings to lift off while training units.
 Fixed exploit that allowed SCVs to repair Protoss buildings.
 Fixed exploit that allowed SCVs to detach Larvae from Hatcheries.
 Fixed exploit that allowed morphing Terran and Protoss buildings.
 Fixed exploit that allowed buildings to be stacked on top of each other.
 Playing against illegally named players on Battle.net no longer results in a disconnect game result.

1.07
Release: 1999-11-02
+ Show Spoiler +
Changes:
 Adds support for Korean tournament (KBK).
 Fixes lag meters on join game screen.
 Changes default Battle.net font so that it is easier to distinguish certain characters while in chat.
 Fixes German text for Brood War units which appeared as English on some systems after upgrading to v1.06.


Indications that Blizzard is moving towards a good direction. Perhaps this is why OSL was made.
First OSL starts on October 2nd, 1999 ended on December 30th, 1999 with Freemura as its champion. Why did the first major tournament (despite it not even being called pro at the time) start in Korea?
+ Show Spoiler +
Soon after Starcraft: BroodWar was released it began gaining popularity in South Korea. With the economy in crisis, South Koreans were drawn to StarCraft as a cheap and easy source of entertainment, particularly in the growing number of PC bangs, where the game became more competitive. In time tournaments like the KBK were drawing many domestic and international gamers and crowds of spectators. The earliest era of professional gaming took off in full swing in 2000, and as it became more and more structured players formed teams and were able to live off their earnings and sponsorships.
-Taken from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Portal:Foreign_Scene

Despite this, there was an era of silence in 2000 despite the proscene starting (albeit slowly). Team liquid was also started in 2000.
Then in 2001…
Patch 1.08
Release: 2001-05-18
+ Show Spoiler +
 Adds support for a new template "Top vs Bottom". This template functions like Melee, with the exception that players in each half are automatically allied and share vision at game start, thus removing the "who am I allied with" question (and reducing the amount of clicking done after the game starts). The game creator can move players around between the two sides as needed to assign teams properly. Note that Top vs Bottom only works for games with two sides - if you want to play 2x2x2 games, you will still need to use Melee.
 Adds support for Game Recording. When a game is over, there will be a new button "Save Replay" in the victory/defeat screen. If you save a replay, you can watch it at a future date. Replays are saved to the "replay" folder inside your Maps folder. Create a game and pick your replay from the "replay" folder. A replay is always passworded. Up to 7 other people can your your replay game to watch it with you; chat is from the people currently connected to the replay game. Replay files can be transferred to other people automatically (if someone joins your replay game, they get your replay transferred to them via the automatic map download facility), or you can copy your replay files (replays end in .REP) from your "replay" folder to a desired destination manually. Seewww.blizzard.com\starcraft\replay for more information.
NOTE: game recording does not work for Team games (Team Melee, Team Free for All, Team Capture the Flag).
 Adds support for gateway selection. You can now specify which Battle.net cluster to connect to. In normal cases, you will do nothing, and you will be sent to the "closest" Battle.net cluster. If you wish to override the automatic selection, you can pick a cluster manually.
Save Game clarification - the save game window now shows:
Saving Multiplayer Game
Save Game Name: XXX
in order to avoid the "Saving Starcraft Virus 1.0 to Hard Disk" joke.
 If you are really clever, you can crush tanks by landing buildings on them. This is the unexpected consequence to fixing a cheeze that allowed players to have siege tanks underneath barracks.
 Better proxy support
 Clearer battle.net messages.
 Updated "Connecting to fastest server" messages to be clearer.
 Ladders maps updated.
 Ladder cheating fix - Ladder map alteration fix (Japanese version too)
 Fixed various language translation problems.
 Fixed "gliding SCV" and "teleporting drone" bugs
ADDITIONAL KBK SUPPORT Template Types
 KBK (Beginner)
 KBK (Game Room)
 KBK (Professional)
 KBK (Single)
 KBK (TEAM)
 KBK (Zone)
Account Types:
 KBK Beginner
 KBK Game Room
 KBK Professional
 KBK Single
 KBK Team-6
 KVK Zone-6
Balance Changes 1.08

 Valkyrie:
 Damage increase to 6 per missile.
 Acceleration and velocity increased slightly.
 Build time decreased.
 Science Facility:
 Build time decreased.
 Irradiate research cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
 Yamato Cannon research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
 Missile Turret:
 Decreased cost to 75 minerals.
 Factory:
 Charon Missile Booster research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
 Dropship:
 Increased speed.
 Goliath:
 Increased ground attack range.
 Battle Cruiser:
 Build time decreased.
 Supply cost decreased to 6.
 Dragoon:
 Build time increased.
 Scout:
 Decreased cost to 275 minerals, 125 gas.
 Carrier:
 Supply cost decreased to 6.
 Templar:
 Psi Storm Damage reduced.
 Corsair:
 Disruption Web spell duration decreased.
 Zealot:
 Shields decreased to 60 and hit points increased to 100.
 Queen:
 Decreased build cost to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
 Ultralisk:
 Supply cost decreased to 4.
 Queen's Nest:
 Spawn Broodling cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
 Hydralisk Den:
 Lurker Aspect cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
 Hydralisk speed upgrade cost increased to 150 minerals, 150 gas.
 Spawning Pool:
 Increased build cost to 200 minerals
 Sunken Colony:
 Building armor increased to 2.
 Hit points decreased to 300.
Part B
Release: 2001-05-20
 Fixed a bug that caused the game to crash when a damaged morphing creep colony changed into a sunken colony.
 Mac ladder maps are now correct.
 Corrected URLs for KBK. www.kbk21.com.
 Removed URL for replay FAQ.


Holy balances Idra! Major changes. Perfect? No. But it was possibly one of the balancingist patches yet (with a lot of tech fixes!) Coincidently, this year, Boxer wins the OSL and starts his reign as the emperor (although he started his reign earlier than the patch). I don’t know for sure, but I feel like this is when the proscene took off. Most in game balances were fixed at this point, and over the next patches (2002-2009, patches 1.09-1.16), they fixed exploits and glitchs. It took them until 2005 to fix major map balances, but by then, most people were using custom maps.
Last patch was January 21st, 2009. Almost 11 years after they released the game and about a year and a half before starcraft 2.

29 patches (I am counting patches broken into pieces) later, look at how far we have come.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Not only in how blizzard fixed the game, but strategies too. Strategies always existed, but most of the time, pros only popularized and perfected them. If we look back at old Starcraft games, they were nothing compared to what we get today. Newer, younger players are showing us what it means to really play, and that’s not even tapping into the full potential that the world could offer. If you don’t know the environment in Korea, it is focused on academics. One test can determine the rest of their lives. It is quite possible Korea can offer better, it’s just that the majority of the population hold no interest in being a pro. The same can be said for the rest of the world. For the rest of the world, videogaming is looked down on. Many people would call it immature, childish, geekish, and for losers. I personally would not consider a job in videogaming, not because I don’t love it, but because it is not a very good job if you’re not a winner. The players with the best potential could be playing casually while attempting a degree in college. The point is though; Broodwar still has room to grow with even better players. We call Flash “God” now, but we could be calling someone “La Persona Superiore a Dio” in five years.

Now we get starcraft 2. Let us first evaluate the environment in which starcraft 2 has been born into. It is 2010, and there is a massive fanbase who has played beta and is ready for the game. The proscene has millions of dollars invested into it. The internet and media are a lot more developed, and are better at analyzing things like videogames.

The beta alone had 17 patches. That’s more patches than the first starcraft had in 7 years. No doubt due to the game being in beta and being developed while people were playing it. About a year and a half after release, we have had another 17 patches. So far, we have had 34 offical patches, 5 more than brood war, in only a year and a half . What does this say about the game? That it sucks? That they can’t balance it?

I doubt it. BW took almost 3 years to get to major balance changes at 5 years for map balances that persisted on the ladder. That’s the final product as well, no more expansions for BW. To be fair, there was less attention at that time, and in today’s day and age, and with this many fans, should the game not develop faster?

Starcraft has been around for 1.5 years in this environment, but with 2 expansions packs left. And the game keeps changing. Blue flame hellions weren’t considered a problem until the terrans figured them out completely and dominated. During the beta, HT with the amulet was fine but as people figured it out, it got taken out. I find in slightly odd we are complaining so much about a game that will be radically different in 3-4 years (assuming they don’t pull a starcraft Ghost). Look at the changes in HOTS. Although I disagree with many of them, think of how much the game is going to change. Everything we say balance wise isn’t really gonna matter because we are going to enter another period of balancing and discovery. Yes we should complain though. If there is a problem, Blizzard needs to fix it. But is it reasonable to just say, “SC2 sucks, will never be as good as BW” and drop everything? Is it reasonable to say, “SC2 is designed terribly, has terrible units, terrible maps, terrible everything,” and give up? No way in hell. It is because SC2 is still very young.

We have to wait for the greatest players to arise. We have to wait for all the expansions to release and wait for better micro and better strategies to develop. We have to wait for a good system to firmly establish. We have to wait people, stop being so impatient. Complaining is good, but complaining is different from whining. Telling the makers that this feature is a problem and offering solutions is different from saying that SC2 sucks because of X,Y, and Z.

The reason I write this is I feel like people aren’t giving the game a big enough chance. All they are doing is looking back at the perfected Brood War and drawing comparisons. Remember when the game first came out and people criticized the AI movement as a fault? I read just a while ago someone praising the AI movement for not causing unit clumping. Many things considered faults, are now lauded as the defining features of the game. Stop being so impatient guys, just slowly offer blizzard solutions to the perceived problems, test them out, and let the game mature. We still got a long way to go.


**
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
January 26 2012 02:39 GMT
#2
You seem to be confusing balance and design. I haven't seen people talking about balance in the those recent threads you mention. Also, sc1+bw had only 4 balance patches total with the rest being bug/exploit fixes.
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
Diglett
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
600 Posts
January 26 2012 02:41 GMT
#3
sure it's young but sc2 had a wealth of information on competitive rts that bw did not have. so you would expect the makers of sc2 to take prior successful rts into account, thus making sc2 more awesome more quickly as a competitive game.

but i agree we should give it a chance. saying sc2 will never be better than bw is a bit naive, it could very well become the greatest rts of all time or it could fail miserably, only time can tell.
spacebob42
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States78 Posts
January 26 2012 02:43 GMT
#4
I have thought exactly this way. Thank you for posting this thought. Some people don't realize how long it took even the Brood War proscene to get started.
Go big or go home.
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
January 26 2012 02:44 GMT
#5
I'm glad you tried to address the issue, but I don't think you know what issues people are seeing. They're not balance or anything, the biggest things are design flaws, the kind of things that'll require a complete rework of the game. Things like defender's height advantage, balls of units, easy to use spells and underwhelming effect of siege tanks and zerglings. These aren't the kind of things that get patched, or at least easily. Whats more is that BW was built off nothing. There was no competitive scene until AFTER it came out, SC2 had 12 years of history to learn from. I really don't think it's too much to ask to expect the developers to actually learn from it.
boomer hands
reincremate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China2213 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-26 02:49:46
January 26 2012 02:47 GMT
#6
SC2 was a well-funded e-sport right from the get-go whereas BW didn't become one until about two years later (the earliest televised games in 1999 could hardly be considered to be 'esports' like SC2 or modern BW). It doesn't make sense to compare the timelines of the two.
ToKoreaWithLove
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Norway10161 Posts
January 26 2012 02:53 GMT
#7
Sc2 is played by a lot more people, the progaming scene is well developed and there are tons of tournaments. Thus you would expect the game to be perfected and figured out a lot faster. Heck, we didnt even have replays when we started playing starcraft.

Btw I would argue that the proscene took off way before boxer. HOT and fellow zerg twins jinnam/jinsu among others were stars, not to mention Garimto and of course the superstar from Canada, Grrrr..

We tend to think it all started with Boxer because he introduced us to modern Starcraft and almost single-handedly saved the Terran race.
ModeratorFather of bunnies
accordion
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada58 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-26 02:57:52
January 26 2012 02:57 GMT
#8
It's irrelevant what they did with BW during it's launch. Games are handled differently today and they had tons of data from BW and WC3 on what works and what doesn't.

Your system won't be there if the game sucks.
Kaolla
Profile Joined January 2003
China2999 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-26 03:27:29
January 26 2012 03:27 GMT
#9
On January 26 2012 11:57 accordion wrote:
It's irrelevant what they did with BW during it's launch. Games are handled differently today and they had tons of data from BW and WC3 on what works and what doesn't.

Your system won't be there if the game sucks.


and that it does...

dang, 4 words and i still managed to make a typo -_-;;
its me
Xenocide_Knight
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Korea (South)2625 Posts
January 26 2012 03:57 GMT
#10
The beauty of mankind is that we build on previous experience and learn from mistakes. We don't always start from the same place.
Shine[Kal] #1 fan
omgimonfire15
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States233 Posts
January 26 2012 04:34 GMT
#11
Thank you for your replies. I will better write blogs in the future. I don't think I addressed enough in my post that what you guys said is true, the playing field today is much different from what it was before, there is much more to work off of. I think it became not clear when I ranted. But I do not think that is an excuse to say that the game should be as perfect as brood war without remaking brood war.

We certainly learn from the past, but when making something new, unless we recreate the original, can we really make a perfect product? I intentionally did not go into game design as I either believe they can be fixed with patches or they are not really issues at all, and given time, they will be fixed. My intention was not to start a game design controversy thread.

I brought in the BW timeline to show how long it took to get here in all of its aspects. Strategy, skill, game balance, etc. Even with its "flaws". When it first came on, early critics for the first couple of years said that the way AI movement was terrible. yet as I mentioned, people now laud it for not creating deathballs. I believe that if we give it time, it is highly possible that the perceived "game flaws" can turn out to not really be problems at all or they will be fixed entirely if they are truly an issue.


Keyboard Warrior
Profile Joined December 2011
United States1178 Posts
January 26 2012 04:42 GMT
#12
On January 26 2012 11:53 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Sc2 is played by a lot more people, the progaming scene is well developed and there are tons of tournaments. Thus you would expect the game to be perfected and figured out a lot faster. Heck, we didnt even have replays when we started playing starcraft.

Btw I would argue that the proscene took off way before boxer. HOT and fellow zerg twins jinnam/jinsu among others were stars, not to mention Garimto and of course the superstar from Canada, Grrrr..

We tend to think it all started with Boxer because he introduced us to modern Starcraft and almost single-handedly saved the Terran race.

Boxer is Starcraft Royalty!
Not your regular Keyboard Warrior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8097 Posts
January 26 2012 06:03 GMT
#13
honestly i would sort of argue that "real" competitive starcraft wasnt developed until like 2003/4 when players started to realize the importance of good macro and the map pools started to cater to macro-oriented play. i mean look at the maps for the cocacola OSL: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/63_Coca-Cola_OSL . only one map had a legitimate natural lol.

I think a big problem with the way blizzard is patching sc2 is how they keep trying to balance the game with patches instead of maps. BW is only so balanced because of very smart map design. but i guess that's just going to be how sc2 players will have to develop to remain good at the game, since with 2 more expansions coming out, blizzard is going to be constantly changing unit stats and such for at least 3 more years.

Free Palestine
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
January 26 2012 06:48 GMT
#14
The biggest problems with SC2 are at the core of the engine, and so far Blizzard doesn't seem to have the slightest intent to address them. That's because those aren't issues that Kim & Browder can deal with in a "balance patch", but rather the core developers have to remake many fundamental aspects of the game, and it seems that's not very likely at this point.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
January 26 2012 06:58 GMT
#15
You're confusing game balance and game design. You're also confusing the point of all the design whine threads popping up everywhere. You're also confusing why people whine about SC2, and really about anything, in general.

People are worried about more fundamental issues with SC2's core gameplay. Game balance is a part of that. The most common issues we're seeing people bring up is the overly smooth unit AI/boring deathballs, and units having too high a damage output/no defender's advantage. Balance will naturally get pulled in as a part of that discussion, but it's not the focus.

Here's the other thing, and the more important thing, that you're missing. No one is whining and giving up on SC2. SC2 is not a bad game. It's a good game. It's no BW, but nothing ever will be. People are bringing up these issues because they care about this game. They're whining because they like or even love this game, and want these trouble spots they see fixed. They don't like that the game has perceived flaws, and so they're explicating what exactly those flaws are to see whether or not others feel the same way. If enough of the community feels the same way about something, it could possibly (not likely) enact change from Blizzard, and we could see a great game get even better.

When people whine and complain about something, that's a good thing -- that means they care about it.
Hello
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
January 26 2012 07:25 GMT
#16
On January 26 2012 15:58 PH wrote:
You're confusing game balance and game design. You're also confusing the point of all the design whine threads popping up everywhere. You're also confusing why people whine about SC2, and really about anything, in general.

People are worried about more fundamental issues with SC2's core gameplay. Game balance is a part of that. The most common issues we're seeing people bring up is the overly smooth unit AI/boring deathballs, and units having too high a damage output/no defender's advantage. Balance will naturally get pulled in as a part of that discussion, but it's not the focus.

Here's the other thing, and the more important thing, that you're missing. No one is whining and giving up on SC2. SC2 is not a bad game. It's a good game. It's no BW, but nothing ever will be. People are bringing up these issues because they care about this game. They're whining because they like or even love this game, and want these trouble spots they see fixed. They don't like that the game has perceived flaws, and so they're explicating what exactly those flaws are to see whether or not others feel the same way. If enough of the community feels the same way about something, it could possibly (not likely) enact change from Blizzard, and we could see a great game get even better.

When people whine and complain about something, that's a good thing -- that means they care about it.


This. The criticism of SC2 is not regarding balance. Everyone knows it's impossible to have a game balanced starting from version 1.0, and what the heck there are still 2 expansion packs to come out. We are criticizing design issues. People here have followed starcraft for years before the SC2 beta even came out and we knew exactly what about starcraft so great as a professional game. Watching Activision blizzard steer away from that path to cater to casuals at the expense of the professional scene is what gets people worked up, and for good reason.
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
how
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States538 Posts
January 26 2012 08:03 GMT
#17
On January 26 2012 11:44 seRapH wrote:
I'm glad you tried to address the issue, but I don't think you know what issues people are seeing. They're not balance or anything, the biggest things are design flaws, the kind of things that'll require a complete rework of the game. Things like defender's height advantage, balls of units, easy to use spells and underwhelming effect of siege tanks and zerglings. These aren't the kind of things that get patched, or at least easily. Whats more is that BW was built off nothing. There was no competitive scene until AFTER it came out, SC2 had 12 years of history to learn from. I really don't think it's too much to ask to expect the developers to actually learn from it.


While I agree with many of the points, BW was not built of nothing. It was a new engine, but they had already started making RTS's with Warcraft. Also, just because the design is different doesn't make it bad, I know you didn't say that, but it seems to be what a lot of people imply via comparing it to BW. They complain about units that don't require micro, then also complain about battles just being balls of units, guess what, a ball of units isn't the best way to fight, make a concave. Also, people seem to neglect (mainly all non pros) dropship micro. As for spells that "remove micro" (Force field, fungal, etc) they are just different. Yes, if you are bad, they will remove micro, but ang good player knows they just after micro pre preemptively. These spells were in BW (lockdown, stasis, plague.)

The game IS still young, a LOT will change. What was GSL champion play last year will be masters level play next year.
http://twitter.com/howsc
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
January 26 2012 08:41 GMT
#18
Got some great points in here, Blizzard did have tons of knowledge to go off of and still haven't made things how you would think they would turn out after such a great RTS like BW. But I doubt there real thoughts would ever be on competetive play anymore when the big money is still in casual players who don't even know what ICCUP, GSL or Teamliquid even is, people who don't care either way. From how these new units sound that there thinking about for that next expansion they want to make the game even more simplified than it currently is.
ToKoreaWithLove
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Norway10161 Posts
January 26 2012 10:06 GMT
#19
On January 26 2012 15:03 Ideas wrote:
honestly i would sort of argue that "real" competitive starcraft wasnt developed until like 2003/4 when players started to realize the importance of good macro and the map pools started to cater to macro-oriented play. i mean look at the maps for the cocacola OSL: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/63_Coca-Cola_OSL . only one map had a legitimate natural lol.



I have to disagree on this. The game at the time was no focused on macro and econ, but more on micromanagement and tactics. It would not work today, but at the time that was the metagame and it was as much competitive sc as the macro games we see today.

I've probably played a 1000 games on those 4 maps combined. I think they are absolutely amazing.
ModeratorFather of bunnies
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