• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:51
CEST 23:51
KST 06:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28)10[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June4Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th156Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0
StarCraft 2
General
TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 2026 Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners High level ptr replays? where can I find them? StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th
Tourneys
Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) GSL Code S Season 2 (2026)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 530 One For All The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected
Brood War
General
Where is EffOrt? BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ vespene.gg — BW replays in browser Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Does Workplace Frustration D…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9220 users

How Much Time to Kill?

Blogs > VGhost
Post a Reply
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3620 Posts
January 20 2012 04:07 GMT
#1
I noticed a comment recently in one of the interminable SC2 balance-in-light-of-BW/RTS generally threads regarding the relative time involved. This is not the answer to that question, but it is a quick-and-dirty first approximation data point to consider.

I ran "suicide times" for every unit in both games that can attack itself (or rather, another unit of the same kind). I didn't even attempt to adjust for shield recharge/heal + repair/regenerate but hopefully the fact that I ignored it completely means it cancels out. I didn't even bother to work in stim, though I did calculate the differences in both games for tanks in their two modes and Vikings in SC2.

I ran two sets of calculations: one includes any buildings with attacks (including a marine-loaded bunker, not including turrets and spore obviously) and special/summoned units. The other includes only normal fighting units.

BW times were calculated using the 1/26th sec per frame/cooldown that I found a bunch of places. All stats are from liquipedia.

tl;dr: All the above says is that I have some numbers now that may or may not be useful.

Everything

Brood War
Protoss: The average kill time is 16.87 seconds, after 16.36 attacks.
Terran: The average kill time is 9.29 seconds, after 7.25 attacks.
Zerg: The average kill time is 9.38 seconds, after 8.73 attacks.

Protoss are tough bastards. Note that while their HP clearly is higher, attacks aren't much overall. Terran and Zerg really come out about equal – Terran may actually be more fragile. (Obviously medics beat hell out of this estimate.)

Starcraft 2

Protoss: The average kill time is 19.91 seconds, after 11.42 attacks.
Terran: The average kill time is 18.28 seconds, after 23.00 attacks.
Zerg: The average kill time is 14.23 seconds, after 11.33 attacks.

Terran are speedy bastards. Zerg are super-fragile.

Regular Units Only

Brood War

Protoss: The average kill time is 17.72 seconds, after 17.00 attacks.
Terran: The average kill time is 9.19 seconds, after 6.27 attacks.
Zerg: The average kill time is 11.09 seconds, after 9.88 attacks.

Protoss are still much tougher unit for unit. (Obviously this isn't taking into account the supply differences.) I can't tell if Terran just do a ton of damage, or are fragile, or both. Zerg average is thrown way the hell off by the Ultralisk since they don't have as many units as the other races.

Protoss: The average kill time is 19.90 seconds, after 11.00 attacks.
Terran: The average kill time is 13.11 seconds, after 21.83 attacks.
Zerg: The average kill time is 15.47 seconds, after 12.22 attacks.

The huge drop in kill time here for Terran is due to the fact that the Planetary and Auto-Turret stat out as super-tough against another one of themselves (and really in general). Zerg's goes up a little because the Broodling and Infested Terran are cut out.

In both games nothing really changes here. Obviously these straight averages don't really reflect common unit composition etc. but they do show a baseline that could suggest something. Not sure what though, other than to suggest that the initial post provoking this blog was dead wrong in saying SC2 units "die too fast" compared to Brood War. (Though stim is hellaciously better in SC2 which probably creates the impression so maybe it wasn't completely off base.)

One thing of note: BW unit cooldown times range from 8 (the Corsair) to 100 (Devourer), a spread of about 12x with an average around 31, 4x the lowest and about 1.5x the most common (22).

SC2 unit cooldown ranges from 0.225 (the Battlecruiser) to 3 (the Seige Tank in siege mode), a spread of about 13x with an average of about 1.45, right at or just under the most common cooldowns (1.4~ or 1.5).

Taking out these outliers, BW goes from 15 (Marine) to 64 (Valkyrie), about 4x. SC2 runs from 0.6 (Void Ray) to 2.21 (Mothership) slightly less than 4x. (Again, not accounting for stim.) SC2 features more specific variations (1.41 and 1.44 are both actual cooldowns) but feels like there's actually less overall variation. Though that could be just the fact that units which in BW saw wide use – corsair, reaver, sieged tanks – were noticeably different from the "standard" and I'm imagining stuff.

I really have no idea what this means, if anything. Any sort of detailed examination would have to balance for actual compositions, non-mirror rates, etc. etc. If I have to draw a conclusion on so little data, it's this: if SC2 is flawed (and I'm more and more thinking it's not, just young), it's not because of any radical overall differences from BW as far as the basic units go.

#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 04:25:38
January 20 2012 04:22 GMT
#2
Have you taken into account the Storms, EMPs, Plagues, Irradiate, Mines and the uphill attacks, darkswarms, and ... well, the spells?

200 hydras can be destroyed by 20 high templars with full energy.

What I mean to say is that one thing I've realized in playing games is that, it's not the games that are balanced. It's the players that balance the games.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 04:41:40
January 20 2012 04:36 GMT
#3
Good effort, but you can't really judge anything from this.

Stim is also twice as poweful in BW than SC2.

There is no denying that BW battles last up to 10 times longer than in SC2.

There are many things like Siege Tanks being more powerful, Darkswarms, pathing, etc, which cause battles to go for a LOT longer. Even small skirmishes between zealots/marines/lings seem to last a lot longer, don't really know why.

Is this in-game seconds or real-life seconds. It should really be calculated in real life seconds. iirc SC2 everything happens 20% or so faster.

I think a good example is the siege tank vs dragoon. The damage outputs are extremely high and an entire dragoon army can melt in an instant. But often there is a lot of jockeying because dragoons will be backpedaling while taking pot-shots at unsiege tanks, while the tanks are leap frogging forward. This means that while there is almost no shooting, the action is going for a very long time.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
Suichoy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada397 Posts
January 20 2012 04:52 GMT
#4
I think the main thing that makes Starcraft 2 battles short is not the damage but the natural unit clumping.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 9m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub323
ProTech95
Dota 2
LuMiX0
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps1432
Super Smash Bros
PPMD16
Other Games
summit1g9348
Grubby3901
shahzam622
uThermal330
FrodaN301
Trikslyr299
B2W.Neo276
mouzStarbuck251
C9.Mang0210
Liquid`Hasu146
UpATreeSC55
Mew2King50
ROOTCatZ26
Tefel14
fpsfer 1
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream2694
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 62
• StrangeGG 55
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 66
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2908
League of Legends
• TFBlade798
Other Games
• imaqtpie865
• Shiphtur172
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 9m
ByuN vs Shameless
PiGosaur Cup
1d 2h
Replay Cast
1d 11h
The PondCast
2 days
OSC
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
GSL
4 days
Maru vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Reynor
herO vs Lambo
Solar vs Clem
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
4 days
XuanXuan vs Jaystar
Mihu vs Messiah
eOnzErG vs Dewalt
Bonyth vs Jaystar
TerrOr vs Messiah
XuanXuan vs Mihu
eOnzErG vs Jaystar
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL
5 days
[ Show More ]
Patches Events
5 days
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
5 days
Dewalt vs Messiah
Bonyth vs Mihu
TerrOr vs XuanXuan
eOnzErG vs Messiah
Jaystar vs Mihu
Dewalt vs XuanXuan
Bonyth vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - GSB
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
Proleague 2026-06-15
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
Murky Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
BCC 2026
Heroes Pulsing #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.