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I dont want to treat this as an official statement (so please dont use it as one) but just a note to self on the current state of eSports. This is just a casual chat log between 2 guys, no serious opinion or anything  .
+ Show Spoiler +[12:33:41 AM] Me: do you have a bit time? :D [12:34:08 AM] Xeris: sup [12:34:13 AM] Me: hi i wana know [12:34:21 AM] Me: how the old fnatic practice [12:34:30 AM] Me: like they are on different severs [12:34:49 AM] Me: did they ever practice with each others? [12:35:06 AM] Xeris: not really [12:35:15 AM] Me: hmm [12:35:22 AM] Me: what do you think about this article then [12:35:23 AM] Me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302094[12:35:41 AM] Me: it basicly said team 8 is currently failing in BW scene [12:35:51 AM] Me: bc of lack of coaches and practice partners [12:35:57 AM] Xeris: yeh [12:35:57 AM] Xeris: thats big obv [12:36:11 AM] Me: could the same thing apply to internation teams such as Teamliquid or fnatic? [12:36:24 AM] Me: they are at diffrerent continents [12:36:31 AM] Me: so they cant exchange practices [12:36:42 AM] Xeris: kinda [12:36:49 AM] Xeris: its a bit different with a foreign team [12:37:22 AM] Me: so do you think in the future [12:37:31 AM] Me: teams will have different divisions [12:37:34 AM] Me: and get biggers? [12:37:42 AM] Me: like EG.US EG.KR [12:37:50 AM] Xeris: hmm [12:37:53 AM] Xeris: possibly [12:37:57 AM] Xeris: far away from that though [12:37:58 AM] Xeris: thats so expensive [12:38:11 AM] Me: also i wana ask about coaches [12:38:18 AM] Me: do you think lack of coach in sc2 [12:38:22 AM] Me: will hurt a team? [12:38:26 AM] Me: like BW? [12:38:49 AM] Xeris: no [12:38:54 AM] Xeris: its never existed [12:39:05 AM] Xeris: you need to differentiate pro scene from foreign [12:39:36 AM] Me: hmm, how would i do that :D? [12:40:01 AM] Xeris: because they're literally 2 different worlds [12:40:10 AM] Xeris: the way pro scene in korea works is not how it works for the foreign scene [12:40:31 AM] Me: but i thought we have same goal? [12:40:51 AM] Me: to win more by design better strategy [12:41:00 AM] Xeris: sure but [12:41:05 AM] Xeris: culture plays a huge role [12:41:32 AM] Me: ah u mean the language and distant? [12:41:53 AM] Me: what about a team that has a team house such as EG or RGN? [12:42:26 AM] Xeris: team house doesn't seem to have had a big impact [12:42:41 AM] Me: haha true [12:42:46 AM] Xeris: team house without a coach doesnt help at all [12:42:56 AM] Xeris: its just guys living together playing sc [12:42:59 AM] Xeris: its not structured [12:43:11 AM] Me: that is true [12:43:42 AM] Me: what do you think the reason for that is? [12:43:56 AM] Me: there is just no benefit to have a team house then? [12:44:14 AM] Xeris: there is , builds team chemistry, etc [12:44:27 AM] Xeris: the reason is that korean culture allows easily [12:44:34 AM] Xeris: for something like a coach to run a rigid practice regime [12:45:16 AM] Me: that sound a lot like pro soccer football then? [12:45:39 AM] Xeris: and like i told you before [12:45:45 AM] Xeris: there's no foreigners who are really qualified to be a coach anyway [12:46:07 AM] Me: no i mean its about scheduling right? [12:46:25 AM] Me: what if you let a pro football coach to EG? [12:47:12 AM] Xeris: sure [12:47:17 AM] Xeris: but why would anyone listen to him [12:47:41 AM] Me: hmm pulling an idra :D [12:47:58 AM] Me: i think except for special cases, most players respect their team manager [12:48:06 AM] Xeris: not really [12:48:09 AM] Me: :O [12:48:11 AM] Xeris: theres a big difference [12:48:15 AM] Xeris: between respecting your team manager [12:48:24 AM] Xeris: and if he tells you to practice from 10am - 2pm [12:48:30 AM] Xeris: following that schedule exactly [12:48:39 AM] Xeris: culturally, americans arent trained that way [12:48:54 AM] Me: thats true, i have never like my teach until i left the school [12:48:59 AM] Me: teachers* [12:49:14 AM] Me: well lastly do you mind if i quote the chat log to my next TL blog xD [12:50:17 AM] Xeris: hmm [12:50:20 AM] Xeris: ya sure [12:50:28 AM] Me: ty for your time :D
Thanks to Xeris! Such a great guy, always spare his time to answer my silly questions xD.
Peace
 
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It's just really general stuff. If you've been around for a while you probably would expect this sort of dialogue. Nothing I certainly don't already know.
You writing an article with regards to it or something?
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Nice, how do you know Xeris? Seems like you know each other for some time. I remember Incontrol and Artosis saying on State of the Game that in Korean pro houses they would take at least a year time to see signs of improvement. So I wouldn't be so quick to judge the EG house. But yeah, coaches are definitely something to look into in the future.
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I agree with Xeris look at pro houses without coaches like he mentioned EG, its bascily people laddering or practicing hours a day but with no coach?!
most of the stuff is just well known
Then again everyone needs to find their own solid playstyle
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post coming soon, i'll explain some stuff.
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I just want to add that... I really don't know the exact details of the EG house so it's really hard to say what their regime is like (if they have one), etc.
Mostly what I meant was ... the EG house has been around for about 5 months now? None of the members save Idra, HuK, Demuslim, and PuMa have shown significant results in that span.
There isn't even a drastic difference between the results of MLG events (i.e. compare MLG Dallas + Columbus to Anaheim, Raleigh, Orlando, and Providence, which I will do below)
+ Show Spoiler +
DALLAS
iNcontroL 4th
Lz 32nd
Axslav r7 open
COLUMBUS
Axslav 32nd
iNcontroL 22nd (pool, lost all champ games)
Strifecro r7 open
Machine (pool, lost all champ games)
Anaheim
Machine (pool, lost champ)
iNcontroL (pool, won 1 round champ)
DeMusliM r7 open
Raleigh
Machine (pool, won vs incontrol)
incontroL (pool, lost all)
DeMusliM did well
Orlando
Machine (pool, won vs tyler)
iNcontroL (pool, lost all)
Providence
no players into champ
Machine r8 open
StrifeCro r7 open
So if you take Anaheim as the middle point, where the players were just moving in, and getting adjusted. You'd say "ok with 3 months of super solid hardcore training there should be some improvement and increased consistency in results," but that didn't happen.
Aside from Machine and iNcontroL, who were seeded directly into pool play from their 2010 rankings -- and the EG core lineup (Puma Huk Idra Demuslim), only 2 times were EG's other players able to make it through the open bracket. The closest Strifecro made it to the championship bracket was getting 2 rounds away... Machine made it within 1 round at Providence, and that's essentially it.
Based on this, it's tough to gauge the effectiveness of the pro house. It seems like the before-after have yielded pretty similar results. Although ~4 months is probably not enough time to really gauge anything, I still firmly believe that a house, while an amazing idea and great way to build team chemistry, will be ineffective without a strong coach enforcing a practice schedule and providing the structure a player needs to succeed.
That's my 2 cents.
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The way I see it, the actual house is more like the hardware. But to make the best use of it, you would need to run an appropriate software on it as well.
Without some form of discipline and authority, it is hard to get the most out of the players when it comes to time investment. They'll wander off somewhere, or they'll start streaming, or they will just ladder with little direction or focus. Even when they do practice, it's far too individualistic and it's extremely difficult to find actual practice partners. This isn't the case only with foreigners living together, it's also the case with some Korean teams, I'd even say most Korean SC2 teams.
This is why Slayers are on the way to becoming the most dominant team. While they might not be that team yet, there is no doubt in my mind that given enough time other teams will fall behind if they do not adopt the same model. That said, if KeSPA is really about to bring corporate-sponsored teams into SC2, the current Korean teams are probably counting their last months/weeks/days of relevance anyway.
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One thing you can consider about the EG Pro house is that unlike Korea, the house isn't located near a central studio or event venue that is easily accessible. In Korea, I assume it doesn't take long for teams to travel to the GSL Studio, so its not a huge chunk of their day to attend a tournament. For foreigners, they have to put off days or weeks dedicated to just travelling around the country and the world. In Korea, you can actually dedicate most of your time to practicing.
I agree 4 months is definitely not enough time to gauge the effectiveness of a pro house, especially in the last half of 2011 where there was tournament after tournament and people were travelling nonstop. Even if the part of the team skips a tournament to stay at the house and practice, they're still missing their top tier practice partners. The team needs to stick together to make the most of their practice.
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Canada1637 Posts
I think Xeris is wrong about how there's no one in the foreign scene who could be a "coach", I really don't think it takes that special of a person, its more about having someone there to make sure players are playing, open proper dialogue in terms of keeping the players thinking about the game and practicing in an efficient manner, help find holes in their play and help prepare them for certain matches. This isn't really that hard to do, while you probably want someone who is pretty good at the game to be doing things like finding specific holes in a player's play, its more about finding money to pay this person to actually do it full time. Its more a matter of, this needs to be done in person, so it does require a team house, and this kind of setup is just not the norm in the foreign scene (hopefully eventually it will be though..).
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On January 12 2012 10:04 Adebisi wrote:
I think Xeris is wrong about how there's no one in the foreign scene who could be a "coach", I really don't think it takes that special of a person, its more about having someone there to make sure players are playing, open proper dialogue in terms of keeping the players thinking about the game and practicing in an efficient manner, help find holes in their play and help prepare them for certain matches. This isn't really that hard to do, while you probably want someone who is pretty good at the game to be doing things like finding specific holes in a player's play, its more about finding money to pay this person to actually do it full time. Its more a matter of, this needs to be done in person, so it does require a team house, and this kind of setup is just not the norm in the foreign scene (hopefully eventually it will be though..).
Anyone can be a manager but a coach is different. I know I wouldn't listen to some random gm player and definitely not anyone below gm because all they can do is give me extremely generalized, or otherwise completely wrong advice.
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On January 12 2012 10:10 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:04 Adebisi wrote:
I think Xeris is wrong about how there's no one in the foreign scene who could be a "coach", I really don't think it takes that special of a person, its more about having someone there to make sure players are playing, open proper dialogue in terms of keeping the players thinking about the game and practicing in an efficient manner, help find holes in their play and help prepare them for certain matches. This isn't really that hard to do, while you probably want someone who is pretty good at the game to be doing things like finding specific holes in a player's play, its more about finding money to pay this person to actually do it full time. Its more a matter of, this needs to be done in person, so it does require a team house, and this kind of setup is just not the norm in the foreign scene (hopefully eventually it will be though..). Anyone can be a manager but a coach is different. I know I wouldn't listen to some random gm player and definitely not anyone below gm because all they can do is give me extremely generalized, or otherwise completely wrong advice.
and most of the GM would wana become a player themself rather than a coach.
The problem is about the 'coaching system'. I believe BW pros scene has 2 type of 'coaches': manager and strategy coaches. The first one is really close to the manager side of the team such as head coach for example. These people schedule your practices and judge your strength which then base on that to send you out on Proleague etc..
The second type, however, is extremely rare and ineffective as mentioned in iloveoov most recent interview. The coach need to be an experienced player and have a good knowledge of the meta game. The coach will help the players to design and execute strategy better. The down size is people who are suited for this type of coach is extremely rare and players who would pay attention to this type of coach is even MORE rare.
As mentioned in iloveoov interview, most players in the B-team of SKT1 were truggling to stay in the team and scared to try out new/unstable strategy. Same for A-team except a few star such as Bisu or Fantasy... We could even hear how he mentioned Best is a very hard player to convince and mostly do his own stuff rather than relying on coaches.
Personally, i think our western scence even though cant provide a strategy coach we could still use some manager coaches. Some people mistook the manager coach's role with team captain or team manager and i think its a huge misunderstanding. Lets talk about sirscoot for example, he doesnt even play the game once, how could he schedule anything? For example in the next NASTL where EG is playing, who would decided who to send out next if they are down 1 game? Team captain doesnt do it either... Watch RGNcam stream and you could see all of the players just sit there browsing reddit or have a LAN BF3... Compare to koreans who are practicing 10 hours a day to prepare for their match it is notthing but a joke. Last night marineking stream and it was litterally 4 AM in korea... Imagine the guy play all day long and still stream at midnight for fan service... Like HuK said in one of the interview, 'westerners work hard but they still dont know what it takes to become the best', and i think he is right. If you think 40 games a day is too much, i dont think you got what it take to win a championship ever... I mean even combatex could play 40 games aday and that kid just doing it for fun, how could you call yourself a progamer if you are not pushing yourself to the limit?
It is true, however, that due to the culture, a lot of players will not listen to their coaches. But hey, how many people out their actually love and listen to everything their boss said? Boss need to be awesome and employees also need to be open minded and thats the real professional enviroment to work in. Same should, soon, be applied to gaming. Bitching, complaining should soon be the intolerable in the gaming scene... Look at korean streams, have you ever seen a ladder game between 2 pros that is not ended with a 'gg' but 'fuck you faggot'? No, because they know what they are doing is their job, their life time career and they have respect for people who are doing the same thing. Thats once of the reason why Naniwa got so many backfire from the community after the probe rush incident. Its like throwing stuff into boss face after to lose the job instead of asking him for a letter of recommendation.
So the question is: "Should the Western scence culture change in order to adapt with the professional enviroment?". I think the answer is simply "Yes". Why? Because we can and it is better. So to KawaiiRice, i think soon enough you will have to 'listen to your coach' even though its hard simply because it is a part of your job. Ofc teams should be careful in coaches selection in order to avoid conflicts. A BW pros team has head coach, vice coach and at least coach for each races (>=3) beside team captains and soon i will see big western team doing the same thing in order to improve.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On January 12 2012 07:23 Xeris wrote:I just want to add that... I really don't know the exact details of the EG house so it's really hard to say what their regime is like (if they have one), etc. Mostly what I meant was ... the EG house has been around for about 5 months now? None of the members save Idra, HuK, Demuslim, and PuMa have shown significant results in that span. There isn't even a drastic difference between the results of MLG events (i.e. compare MLG Dallas + Columbus to Anaheim, Raleigh, Orlando, and Providence, which I will do below) + Show Spoiler +
DALLAS
iNcontroL 4th
Lz 32nd
Axslav r7 open
COLUMBUS
Axslav 32nd
iNcontroL 22nd (pool, lost all champ games)
Strifecro r7 open
Machine (pool, lost all champ games)
Anaheim
Machine (pool, lost champ)
iNcontroL (pool, won 1 round champ)
DeMusliM r7 open
Raleigh
Machine (pool, won vs incontrol)
incontroL (pool, lost all)
DeMusliM did well
Orlando
Machine (pool, won vs tyler)
iNcontroL (pool, lost all)
Providence
no players into champ
Machine r8 open
StrifeCro r7 open
So if you take Anaheim as the middle point, where the players were just moving in, and getting adjusted. You'd say "ok with 3 months of super solid hardcore training there should be some improvement and increased consistency in results," but that didn't happen. Aside from Machine and iNcontroL, who were seeded directly into pool play from their 2010 rankings -- and the EG core lineup (Puma Huk Idra Demuslim), only 2 times were EG's other players able to make it through the open bracket. The closest Strifecro made it to the championship bracket was getting 2 rounds away... Machine made it within 1 round at Providence, and that's essentially it. Based on this, it's tough to gauge the effectiveness of the pro house. It seems like the before-after have yielded pretty similar results. Although ~4 months is probably not enough time to really gauge anything, I still firmly believe that a house, while an amazing idea and great way to build team chemistry, will be ineffective without a strong coach enforcing a practice schedule and providing the structure a player needs to succeed. That's my 2 cents.
But in Korean pro houses there are members that don't do well also. So by your logic, Korean pro houses don't work either? I don't think that there's something wrong with the EG house, sometimes players improve but others may be more talented by default. They may be improving in the pro-house but still lose to players that are just simply better than them.
I don't see how it can hurt or not let them improve if they are able to talk strategies, watch over each others shoulders, get more motivated living in a place with other people massing games with them. I think team houses help but there are people that may be more talented ontop of the competition just simply getting tougher; more Koreans in foreigner tournaments and people training in Korea.
On January 12 2012 10:10 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:04 Adebisi wrote:
I think Xeris is wrong about how there's no one in the foreign scene who could be a "coach", I really don't think it takes that special of a person, its more about having someone there to make sure players are playing, open proper dialogue in terms of keeping the players thinking about the game and practicing in an efficient manner, help find holes in their play and help prepare them for certain matches. This isn't really that hard to do, while you probably want someone who is pretty good at the game to be doing things like finding specific holes in a player's play, its more about finding money to pay this person to actually do it full time. Its more a matter of, this needs to be done in person, so it does require a team house, and this kind of setup is just not the norm in the foreign scene (hopefully eventually it will be though..). Anyone can be a manager but a coach is different. I know I wouldn't listen to some random gm player and definitely not anyone below gm because all they can do is give me extremely generalized, or otherwise completely wrong advice.
yeah but most of the Korean coaches are below GM; only one I can think of that fitting your description is Choya for FXO.
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On January 12 2012 10:55 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:10 KawaiiRice wrote:On January 12 2012 10:04 Adebisi wrote:
I think Xeris is wrong about how there's no one in the foreign scene who could be a "coach", I really don't think it takes that special of a person, its more about having someone there to make sure players are playing, open proper dialogue in terms of keeping the players thinking about the game and practicing in an efficient manner, help find holes in their play and help prepare them for certain matches. This isn't really that hard to do, while you probably want someone who is pretty good at the game to be doing things like finding specific holes in a player's play, its more about finding money to pay this person to actually do it full time. Its more a matter of, this needs to be done in person, so it does require a team house, and this kind of setup is just not the norm in the foreign scene (hopefully eventually it will be though..). Anyone can be a manager but a coach is different. I know I wouldn't listen to some random gm player and definitely not anyone below gm because all they can do is give me extremely generalized, or otherwise completely wrong advice. and most of the GM would wana become a player themself rather than a coach. The problem is about the 'coaching system'. I believe BW pros scene has 2 type of 'coaches': manager and strategy coaches. The first one is really close to the manager side of the team such as head coach for example. These people schedule your practices and judge your strength which then base on that to send you out on Proleague etc.. The second type, however, is extremely rare and ineffective as mentioned in iloveoov most recent interview. The coach need to be an experienced player and have a good knowledge of the meta game. The coach will help the players to design and execute strategy better. The down size is people who are suited for this type of coach is extremely rare and players who would pay attention to this type of coach is even MORE rare. As mentioned in iloveoov interview, most players in the B-team of SKT1 were truggling to stay in the team and scared to try out new/unstable strategy. Same for A-team except a few star such as Bisu or Fantasy... We could even hear how he mentioned Best is a very hard player to convince and mostly do his own stuff rather than relying on coaches. Personally, i think our western scence even though cant provide a strategy coach we could still use some manager coaches. Some people mistook the manager coach's role with team captain or team manager and i think its a huge misunderstanding. Lets talk about sirscoot for example, he doesnt even play the game once, how could he schedule anything? For example in the next NASTL where EG is playing, who would decided who to send out next if they are down 1 game? Team captain doesnt do it either... Watch RGNcam stream and you could see all of the players just sit there browsing reddit or have a LAN BF3... Compare to koreans who are practicing 10 hours a day to prepare for their match it is notthing but a joke. Last night marineking stream and it was litterally 4 AM in korea... Imagine the guy play all day long and still stream at midnight for fan service... Like HuK said in one of the interview, 'westerners work hard but they still dont know what it takes to become the best', and i think he is right. If you think 40 games a day is too much, i dont think you got what it take to win a championship ever... I mean even combatex could play 40 games aday and that kid just doing it for fun, how could you call yourself a progamer if you are not pushing yourself to the limit? It is true, however, that due to the culture, a lot of players will not listen to their coaches. But hey, how many people out their actually love and listen to everything their boss said? Boss need to be awesome and employees also need to be open minded and thats the real professional enviroment to work in. Same should, soon, be applied to gaming. Bitching, complaining should soon be the intolerable in the gaming scene... Look at korean streams, have you ever seen a ladder game between 2 pros that is not ended with a 'gg' but 'fuck you faggot'? No, because they know what they are doing is their job, their life time career and they have respect for people who are doing the same thing. Thats once of the reason why Naniwa got so many backfire from the community after the probe rush incident. Its like throwing stuff into boss face after to lose the job instead of asking him for a letter of recommendation. So the question is: "Should the Western scence culture change in order to adapt with the professional enviroment?". I think the answer is simply "Yes". Why? Because we can and it is better. So to KawaiiRice, i think soon enough you will have to 'listen to your coach' even though its hard simply because it is a part of your job. Ofc teams should be careful in coaches selection in order to avoid conflicts. A BW pros team has head coach, vice coach and at least coach for each races (>=3) beside team captains and soon i will see big western team doing the same thing in order to improve.
but I am my team's coach (sort of) o,o soo...
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On January 12 2012 12:22 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:55 NB wrote:On January 12 2012 10:10 KawaiiRice wrote:On January 12 2012 10:04 Adebisi wrote:
I think Xeris is wrong about how there's no one in the foreign scene who could be a "coach", I really don't think it takes that special of a person, its more about having someone there to make sure players are playing, open proper dialogue in terms of keeping the players thinking about the game and practicing in an efficient manner, help find holes in their play and help prepare them for certain matches. This isn't really that hard to do, while you probably want someone who is pretty good at the game to be doing things like finding specific holes in a player's play, its more about finding money to pay this person to actually do it full time. Its more a matter of, this needs to be done in person, so it does require a team house, and this kind of setup is just not the norm in the foreign scene (hopefully eventually it will be though..). Anyone can be a manager but a coach is different. I know I wouldn't listen to some random gm player and definitely not anyone below gm because all they can do is give me extremely generalized, or otherwise completely wrong advice. and most of the GM would wana become a player themself rather than a coach. The problem is about the 'coaching system'. I believe BW pros scene has 2 type of 'coaches': manager and strategy coaches. The first one is really close to the manager side of the team such as head coach for example. These people schedule your practices and judge your strength which then base on that to send you out on Proleague etc.. The second type, however, is extremely rare and ineffective as mentioned in iloveoov most recent interview. The coach need to be an experienced player and have a good knowledge of the meta game. The coach will help the players to design and execute strategy better. The down size is people who are suited for this type of coach is extremely rare and players who would pay attention to this type of coach is even MORE rare. As mentioned in iloveoov interview, most players in the B-team of SKT1 were truggling to stay in the team and scared to try out new/unstable strategy. Same for A-team except a few star such as Bisu or Fantasy... We could even hear how he mentioned Best is a very hard player to convince and mostly do his own stuff rather than relying on coaches. Personally, i think our western scence even though cant provide a strategy coach we could still use some manager coaches. Some people mistook the manager coach's role with team captain or team manager and i think its a huge misunderstanding. Lets talk about sirscoot for example, he doesnt even play the game once, how could he schedule anything? For example in the next NASTL where EG is playing, who would decided who to send out next if they are down 1 game? Team captain doesnt do it either... Watch RGNcam stream and you could see all of the players just sit there browsing reddit or have a LAN BF3... Compare to koreans who are practicing 10 hours a day to prepare for their match it is notthing but a joke. Last night marineking stream and it was litterally 4 AM in korea... Imagine the guy play all day long and still stream at midnight for fan service... Like HuK said in one of the interview, 'westerners work hard but they still dont know what it takes to become the best', and i think he is right. If you think 40 games a day is too much, i dont think you got what it take to win a championship ever... I mean even combatex could play 40 games aday and that kid just doing it for fun, how could you call yourself a progamer if you are not pushing yourself to the limit? It is true, however, that due to the culture, a lot of players will not listen to their coaches. But hey, how many people out their actually love and listen to everything their boss said? Boss need to be awesome and employees also need to be open minded and thats the real professional enviroment to work in. Same should, soon, be applied to gaming. Bitching, complaining should soon be the intolerable in the gaming scene... Look at korean streams, have you ever seen a ladder game between 2 pros that is not ended with a 'gg' but 'fuck you faggot'? No, because they know what they are doing is their job, their life time career and they have respect for people who are doing the same thing. Thats once of the reason why Naniwa got so many backfire from the community after the probe rush incident. Its like throwing stuff into boss face after to lose the job instead of asking him for a letter of recommendation. So the question is: "Should the Western scence culture change in order to adapt with the professional enviroment?". I think the answer is simply "Yes". Why? Because we can and it is better. So to KawaiiRice, i think soon enough you will have to 'listen to your coach' even though its hard simply because it is a part of your job. Ofc teams should be careful in coaches selection in order to avoid conflicts. A BW pros team has head coach, vice coach and at least coach for each races (>=3) beside team captains and soon i will see big western team doing the same thing in order to improve. but I am my team's coach (sort of) o,o soo...
yeah thats what i mean, you are still a player and a team captain. you should be focus more on playing and somebody else gona handle the coaching. Ofc LighT is small so currently that is not needed but as we(esport) get bigger, the model i mentioned is not unlikely.
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It comes down to perfect practice. Not all teams follow the same schedule not even the Koreans. The Korean model in BW is something else.
I will tell you this based on your bit about EG:
Let's say someone like Incontrol, someone who many consider to be the player coach of EG, stops playing competitively and decides only to focus on being the player coach. Do you honestly think every player under him will improve? Personally I think it will be more of the same. There is no reason for it as he already provides the players guidance. Its unnecessary and unless it increases his salary and role within the team there is no point. You need to validate the promotion. Not to say he isn't a good cheerleader and helps bring morale up. He's been doing that to every team he joins since his role in 88). It was his baby after all. He knows what he's doing when it comes to leading. He's a natural at it.
I don't think it will change a thing though for Geoff to just coach the players. His casting should be a good indication of this as he just goes on and on without taking all the action in. Consequently his predictions and the result are usually off. He got a few things right at HSC though. ;o
My advice to him specifically would be to relax and let the game come to him. Not vice versa.
This doesn't even touch base on the fact that the Korean BW system has player coaches for each specific race or coaching philosophy. -.-;;
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On January 12 2012 13:07 StarStruck wrote:
It comes down to perfect practice. Not all teams follow the same schedule not even the Koreans. The Korean model in BW is something else.
I will tell you this based on your bit about EG:
Let's say someone like Incontrol, someone who many consider to be the player coach of EG, stops playing competitively and decides only to focus on being the player coach. Do you honestly think every player under him will improve? Personally I think it will be more of the same. There is no reason for it as he already provides the players guidance. Its unnecessary and unless it increases his salary and role within the team there is no point. You need to validate the promotion. Not to say he isn't a good cheerleader and helps bring morale up. He's been doing that to every team he joins since his role in 88). It was his baby after all. He knows what he's doing when it comes to leading. He's a natural at it.
I don't think it will change a thing though for Geoff to just coach the players. His casting should be a good indication of this as he just goes on and on without taking all the action in. Consequently his predictions and the result are usually off. He got a few things right at HSC though. ;o
My advice to him specifically would be to relax and let the game come to him. Not vice versa.
This doesn't even touch base on the fact that the Korean BW system has player coaches for each specific race or coaching philosophy. -.-;;
i think you are going off topic by quite a bit.... i dont see how Incontrol case would apply here when we are talking about future esport model in general. I am not suggesting people who are not having any significant result like him to become a coach. Its more like if we find a coach he might do better than what he have done so far.
Its undeniable how EG house didnt bring back any significant result. In fact, incontrol is now scheduled to leave for korean end of jan early feb and following up would be demuslim. They soon will have their own 'korean model' with coach and serious practice schedule.
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The point is the Korean SC2 teams don't all have the same setup and your overarching theme is perfecting practice, which was my preface.
I think it's silly to make future predictions and estimates like this in general. I heard you when you spoke about qualifications and only the best of the best as team coaches and team captains (another role in BW).
Lots of the BW teams follow the same cookie cutter builds once they're given the thumbs up. It's very rare that we see things like SK Terran build/style transpire now based on how posh the play is. We would need more substantially different maps instead of reflections of old maps.
Having a demanding schedule is one thing. Just like massive gaming. It comes down to how they use that time, which will be detrimental to their success, i.e. perfect practice.
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On January 12 2012 14:41 StarStruck wrote:
The point is the Korean SC2 teams don't all have the same setup and your overarching theme is perfecting practice, which was my preface.
I think it's silly to make future predictions and estimates like this in general. I heard you when you spoke about qualifications and only the best of the best as team coaches and team captains (another role in BW).
Lots of the BW teams follow the same cookie cutter builds once they're given the thumbs up. It's very rare that we see things like SK Terran build/style transpire now based on how posh the play is. We would need more substantially different maps instead of reflections of old maps.
Having a demanding schedule is one thing. Just like massive gaming. It comes down to how they use that time, which will be detrimental to their success, i.e. perfect practice.
well i dont care how koreans sc2 teams dont have the same set up. The fact that the very worst of them still be able to top out westerner in major competition is something undeniable. Reason? Dont say Korean race is imba. Its their practice training method that we dont have.
Lets say RGN team for example, Go watch their house cam and you see a very minimum number of practice. Hell kiwikaki their ace even went to a poker tournament the week before MLG. The practice schedule among western teams is almost unexistence and unheard off. I have a hard time imagine member of teamliquid such as Tyler or Sheth or Ret having any 'Inhouse training'. In fact, Haypro and TLO is currently share a house with mouz members which they are very likely to counter in any team invitational tournament. There is no way a non-teamate would go all out to help you practice a tournament that they are also practicipating in.
To sum up: the western teams model are currently fraigile and uneffective which soon to be replaced by a better model which is currently the Korean one. There is a reason why FXO drop their internation division, fnatic also dropped all of its US member only keeping ToD(now in Korea) and nightend(EU) and rain(korean). Model changing is no longer a fairy tale but is something that happening soon in 2012. EG moving to korea, FXO is korean only now, Teamliquid start picking up korean players, Quantic promise most of their players for a korean training enviroment. IT IS COMING.
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On January 12 2012 10:58 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 07:23 Xeris wrote:I just want to add that... I really don't know the exact details of the EG house so it's really hard to say what their regime is like (if they have one), etc. Mostly what I meant was ... the EG house has been around for about 5 months now? None of the members save Idra, HuK, Demuslim, and PuMa have shown significant results in that span. There isn't even a drastic difference between the results of MLG events (i.e. compare MLG Dallas + Columbus to Anaheim, Raleigh, Orlando, and Providence, which I will do below) + Show Spoiler +
DALLAS
iNcontroL 4th
Lz 32nd
Axslav r7 open
COLUMBUS
Axslav 32nd
iNcontroL 22nd (pool, lost all champ games)
Strifecro r7 open
Machine (pool, lost all champ games)
Anaheim
Machine (pool, lost champ)
iNcontroL (pool, won 1 round champ)
DeMusliM r7 open
Raleigh
Machine (pool, won vs incontrol)
incontroL (pool, lost all)
DeMusliM did well
Orlando
Machine (pool, won vs tyler)
iNcontroL (pool, lost all)
Providence
no players into champ
Machine r8 open
StrifeCro r7 open
So if you take Anaheim as the middle point, where the players were just moving in, and getting adjusted. You'd say "ok with 3 months of super solid hardcore training there should be some improvement and increased consistency in results," but that didn't happen. Aside from Machine and iNcontroL, who were seeded directly into pool play from their 2010 rankings -- and the EG core lineup (Puma Huk Idra Demuslim), only 2 times were EG's other players able to make it through the open bracket. The closest Strifecro made it to the championship bracket was getting 2 rounds away... Machine made it within 1 round at Providence, and that's essentially it. Based on this, it's tough to gauge the effectiveness of the pro house. It seems like the before-after have yielded pretty similar results. Although ~4 months is probably not enough time to really gauge anything, I still firmly believe that a house, while an amazing idea and great way to build team chemistry, will be ineffective without a strong coach enforcing a practice schedule and providing the structure a player needs to succeed. That's my 2 cents. But in Korean pro houses there are members that don't do well also. So by your logic, Korean pro houses don't work either? I don't think that there's something wrong with the EG house, sometimes players improve but others may be more talented by default. They may be improving in the pro-house but still lose to players that are just simply better than them. I don't see how it can hurt or not let them improve if they are able to talk strategies, watch over each others shoulders, get more motivated living in a place with other people massing games with them. I think team houses help but there are people that may be more talented ontop of the competition just simply getting tougher; more Koreans in foreigner tournaments and people training in Korea. Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 10:10 KawaiiRice wrote:On January 12 2012 10:04 Adebisi wrote:
I think Xeris is wrong about how there's no one in the foreign scene who could be a "coach", I really don't think it takes that special of a person, its more about having someone there to make sure players are playing, open proper dialogue in terms of keeping the players thinking about the game and practicing in an efficient manner, help find holes in their play and help prepare them for certain matches. This isn't really that hard to do, while you probably want someone who is pretty good at the game to be doing things like finding specific holes in a player's play, its more about finding money to pay this person to actually do it full time. Its more a matter of, this needs to be done in person, so it does require a team house, and this kind of setup is just not the norm in the foreign scene (hopefully eventually it will be though..). Anyone can be a manager but a coach is different. I know I wouldn't listen to some random gm player and definitely not anyone below gm because all they can do is give me extremely generalized, or otherwise completely wrong advice. yeah but most of the Korean coaches are below GM; only one I can think of that fitting your description is Choya for FXO.
I think you don't understand my logic... I didn't claim that because EG's players don't do well therefore pro house == bad. Obviously, Korean players on pro teams don't do well either. The point is that, you have this very clear indication based on evidence (tournament results) that being in the pro house has not had a recognizable impact on the EG players' results. I.E. LzGaMeR (who doesn't live in the house) has had pretty similar results to the other EG players who DO live in the house.
The fact that relatively unknown people like Jjaki, Puzzle, Sound, etc, can come through and perform really well in Code A / Code S after previously being very unknown shows that Korean pro houses are able to produce top skilled players. IdrA and HuK were top foreigners before the EG house, and they still are. Jjaki was not a top player before he was in the pro house, but now he is. Axslav and StrifeCro were not top players before moving into the EG house, and they still aren't.
This is what I'm saying -- there is of course a talent factor, perhaps some of the Koreans have better mechanical ability and more talent, but the big difference between foreign pro houses and Korean ones is that: Korean teams generally have a coach, whose job it is to manage the practice schedule and provide advice to players. Read Sage's interview -- as the team captain / player coach, he literally works with the other players to construct build orders for them, they refine their game very precisely.
Foreign teams/houses don't have that type of leadership or precision. Even if the EG guys are playing 10 hours a day in the house, they don't get the same out of it that a Korean would from playing 10 hours a day, because the style of practice is very different.
I also highly disagree with Adebisi -- I really don't think there is anyone who can really be qualified as a coach in the foreign scene. TWO people I can think of that come close are Gretorp and Mondragon. They both have a very high level understanding of the game, were former competitive gamers, and have been able to play Starcraft 2 at a competitive tournament level before. Mondragon especially commands quite a bit of respect due to his past history from Brood War (I.E. just how Coach Lee from TSL has a lot of respect because he was a successful coach in BW), so if he tells you something, you're much more inclined to listen to it.
It isn't about paying a guy who know Starcraft a lot of money so that he can 100% focus on coaching. Respect plays a huge role. KawaiiRice won't listen to me if I talk about strategy with him, because what can I tell him that he doesn't already know, or that he can't figure out by watching a replay. Sure I can offer some advice on mindset and such, but a coach needs to be equally adept at offering real and insightful analysis of game situations, strategy, builds, etc.
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On January 12 2012 14:57 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 14:41 StarStruck wrote:
The point is the Korean SC2 teams don't all have the same setup and your overarching theme is perfecting practice, which was my preface.
I think it's silly to make future predictions and estimates like this in general. I heard you when you spoke about qualifications and only the best of the best as team coaches and team captains (another role in BW).
Lots of the BW teams follow the same cookie cutter builds once they're given the thumbs up. It's very rare that we see things like SK Terran build/style transpire now based on how posh the play is. We would need more substantially different maps instead of reflections of old maps.
Having a demanding schedule is one thing. Just like massive gaming. It comes down to how they use that time, which will be detrimental to their success, i.e. perfect practice. well i dont care how koreans sc2 teams dont have the same set up. The fact that the very worst of them still be able to top out westerner in major competition is something undeniable. Reason? Dont say Korean race is imba. Its their practice training method that we dont have. Lets say RGN team for example, Go watch their house cam and you see a very minimum number of practice. Hell kiwikaki their ace even went to a poker tournament the week before MLG. The practice schedule among western teams is almost unexistence and unheard off. I have a hard time imagine member of teamliquid such as Tyler or Sheth or Ret having any 'Inhouse training'. In fact, Haypro and TLO is currently share a house with mouz members which they are very likely to counter in any team invitational tournament. There is no way a non-teamate would go all out to help you practice a tournament that they are also practicipating in. To sum up: the western teams model are currently fraigile and uneffective which soon to be replaced by a better model which is currently the Korean one. There is a reason why FXO drop their internation division, fnatic also dropped all of its US member only keeping ToD(now in Korea) and nightend(EU) and rain(korean). Model changing is no longer a fairy tale but is something that happening soon in 2012. EG moving to korea, FXO is korean only now, Teamliquid start picking up korean players, Quantic promise most of their players for a korean training enviroment. IT IS COMING.
Kaki always does that man. He's a semi-pro poker player for a reason. Fortunately for him, he can do both quite well. I never watched the RGN stream. I'm familiar with several of their players and I've known Fayth for years yet I am at no libery to comment on what and what they don't do as I have paid very little attention to them. I can only comment on what I see. Well aware of how many other players practice and I'm not surprised to hear this story as it falls into the same old bullshit.
Better yet more players are going to Korea; however, we still see their mindsets work against them. Latest example, what Geoff said about Stephano. He thinks his Korean training is done and he learned everything he could. It doesn't end there.
The foreign model isn't changing so to speak. The foreigners are going there for the damn model and competition itself.
Xeris I'd agree with you on Mondragon, but I have a hard time believing Andre could fit that role. I know you two are very close, but we have to be realistic.
If I'm to fill that position I would only look at the most dynamic players who understand the game completely, have high consistency, good leadership and know how to articulate themselves. They need to be the total package.
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