EPT
Trying out Mech in TvP
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Catweazle
United Kingdom8 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
as for targetting im not sure if it's wisest to focus down immortals so you get rid of their huge damage vs mech, or just take care of zealot/stalkers first. sorry if this is all confusing i ahvent had much sleep | ||
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TiTanIum_
Brazil1335 Posts
Tanks, Thor, Helions? If that´s it, then mech is just terrible in TvP. If it is marine tank, try to win in the first 10 minutes of the game. Upgrades for both marine and tanks are too expensive and have 0 synergy. That´s the strenght of the 1-1-1. If you are trying something less controversial (i don´t see the 1-1-1 the malign cancer that everyone thinks it is), Try a 2-2-2, 1 rax FE, into 2 gases, into 1 more rax, 2 more gases at the natural and 2 starports. It´s pretty strong, and you need to scout very well, because even a 3 rax push without bunkers can kill you. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On January 04 2012 04:59 TiTanIum_ wrote: I don´t know what should be considered mech in TvP... Tanks, Thor, Helions? If that´s it, then mech is just terrible in TvP. If it is marine tank, try to win in the first 10 minutes of the game. Upgrades for both marine and tanks are too expensive and have 0 synergy. That´s the strenght of the 1-1-1. If you are trying something less controversial (i don´t see the 1-1-1 the malign cancer that everyone thinks it is), Try a 2-2-2, 1 rax FE, into 2 gases, into 1 more rax, 2 more gases at the natural and 2 starports. It´s pretty strong, and you need to scout very well, because even a 3 rax push without bunkers can kill you. Mech is generally factory units. I'm not sure if starport units count, but they should. Both 1-1-1 and 2-2-2 rely on bio more or less. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
Furthermore, it's not so much about whether mech is good, but whether you are good with it. If you invest a lot of time in it, it can work on the ladder, and you can hit that niche strategy that you are very experienced with and know how to deal with a lot of unrefined responses, while your opponents won't be as experienced playing against it. Anyway, it's not standard, it doesn't really work at the highest level, and you probably shouldn't invest too much time and effort into it unless you're really bored with standard bio play. | ||
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
Then when you successfully open bio into mech, you will die BECAUSE you have 2+ factories up. | ||
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Goody's Ghostmech TvP: Hellion/Tank/Viking/Ghost. Primary focus on Tanks. Uses Tanks to kill everything on the ground, with just enough Vikings to discourage Stargate+Collosi prouction, and just enough Ghosts to deal with Immortal+Archon. Jinro's Skymech TvP: Hellion/Thor/Banshee/Ghost. Primary focus on Thors. Uses Thors to kill Obs and Ghosts to Nuke Cannons so Cloakshees can kill everything undetected. A third option, if neither of those appeal to you, is Pure Sky. It relies upon mass expanding with PFs to get a ton of gysers quickly, and then making a pure Starport army. (so no mineral sinks such as Marine/Hellion are built after 2 base) The core army is usually Banshee/Viking, but it can later transition into BC/Raven. Theres a bunch of threads in here about it if you search | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:19 RoboBob wrote: No, I think most pros have proven that pure mech does not work in TvP. The mech versions that do work are Goody-style Ghostmech, and Jinro-style Skymech. Goody's Ghostmech TvP: Hellion/Tank/Viking/Ghost. Primary focus on Tanks. Uses Tanks to kill everything on the ground, with just enough Vikings to discourage Stargate+Collosi prouction, and just enough Ghosts to deal with Immortal+Archon. Jinro's Skymech TvP: Hellion/Thor/Banshee/Ghost. Primary focus on Thors. Uses Thors to kill Obs and Ghosts to Nuke Cannons so Cloakshees can kill everything undetected. A third option, if neither of those appeal to you, is Pure Sky. It relies upon mass expanding with PFs to get a ton of gysers quickly, and then making a pure Starport army. (so no mineral sinks such as Marine/Hellion are built after 2 base) The core army is usually Banshee/Viking, but it can later transition into BC/Raven. Theres a bunch of threads in here about it if you search Hm... TvP mech works when I see it in pro gamers' replays... but never really when I try it myself... just like marine split vs. banelings... but of the styles u mentioned, goodies' looks the most promising. I'm gonna try that on ladder! thanks | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:38 RevTiberius wrote: Hm... TvP mech works when I see it in pro gamers' replays... but never really when I try it myself... just like marine split vs. banelings... but of the styles u mentioned, goodies' looks the most promising. I'm gonna try that on ladder! thanks Keep in mind, even both of the viable hybrids I mentioned still require Marine/Marauder in the early game. TvP mech doesn't work on 2 geysers, it needs at least 4, preferably 6. So you *will* need infantry to defend against early agression and secure your natural. And you can't 1 Rax FE comfortably with mech because its suicide to expand with no army AND tech up at the same time. With standard play if you 1 Rax FE and then see 1 base play then you can slam down extra Rax+Bunker no problem. But with mech, you just die. That's why you need to open agressively with mech. For example: 2 Rax gas pressure FE, Siege expand, Thor expand, Banshee(No Cloak/Cloaked), Hellion drop(Red/Blue), etc. The difference between mech and standard play is that instead of upgrading your Infantry, you upgrade Vehicles. And instead of taking slow gasses in order to afford extra Rax, you need to take fast gasses in order to afford extra Factories. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
The sad thing is mech tvp styles only work right now if you play bad protosses that a) dont' build warp prism b) don't scatter pylons everywhere c) only engage you in army vs army If they attack you in 4-5 places at once with multiple warp prisms, pylon warp-ins, blink stalkers, they can easily 1a steamroll whatever you have left at the center, which won't be much. | ||
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TiTanIum_
Brazil1335 Posts
It was pretty fun, but as avilo just said, I would be dead against a competent protoss. http://drop.sc/84371 Disclaimer: I suck as Terran. | ||
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Nizzy
United States839 Posts
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
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Catweazle
United Kingdom8 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On January 04 2012 03:31 darkness wrote: You should try your luck with thors & sky terran. I know one game isn't enough, but Puzzle (or was it Oz?) lost to that @ Daybreak, but who knows.. Jjakji used it against Puzzle and everybody went wild, but really the reason why Jjakji won that game is that Puzzle responded poorly (went Colossi/Robo Tech and never got High Templar) and Jjakji harassed really well (but at the same time had Puzzle shut down his harassment the game would have gone a completely different way. It's a good strategy, it can work, but it relies a lot on your opponent making mistakes. Feedback/Storm absolutely destroy it (Blizzard take away Thor energy...). | ||
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Limelights
United States219 Posts
If someone comes up with a way to Mech in every matchup then i'll probably switch from Zerg to Terran, but bio-terran doesn't really interest me at all. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
The only two mech styles I've seen work decently are Goody-style Ghostmech, and Jinro-style Skymech. Both of which involve leaning on Marine/Marauder to secure an FE, and then switching over to full mech instead of upgrading their bio. However keep in mind that both pros now mostly play bio TvP because its easier. The main problem with mech TvP is that the Hellion is only good for killing Zealots. If the P doesn't make Zealots you're kinda screwed. Also, the natural counter to mech is Robo. And Protoss open Robo all the time in PvT. | ||
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happyft
United States470 Posts
 Well, the first two times I've tried it today, I've won. The first replay is a Shattered Temple KOTH, my mech tvp is the first match, against a high diamond toss. The second is a ladder on Shakuras against a 500 masters toss. http://www.mediafire.com/?nhsp88c6qyxbx4a http://www.mediafire.com/?age278708p2sum9 As you can see in the replays, I play a pretty greedy 1 rax CC into 2 fact opening, but I'm still able to fend off 3 gate pressure in both games, holding on until my first tank pops out. I think I might adjust this to getting 1 fact and then a reactor on rax just in case I need to pump marines. Also, my build might just auto-lose against a void-ray 3 gate all-in/pressure build, but hardly anyone does that these days. I'm basically aiming to get 4 facts up (2 reactor 2 tech lab) on 2 base, and go for an attack while I secure my third. When my third kicks in, I begin getting mech attack upgrade, reactor starport, and ghost academy before I add another 2 facts. (I aim for 2 facts/base). I also put down several turrets when I move out because that third gives you a sick ton of excess minerals. Also, for tank spread, arc is quintessential. You actually want to minimize the depth of your tank line, and maximize your arc for optimal results. This can be pretty tricky because if your arc is not positioned well (depends GREATLY on the map), the toss might be able to figure out a way to engage your tank line without taking fire from some of your tanks. It's actually ok to clump your tanks somewhat. (Don't believe me? Test it yourself in unit testers) Hope this helps! | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
Note that I only recently started to play again and I think that the current trend for most Protosses to take Fast Expansions really helps mech play. I'm not saying that mech is viable on the highest level of play, and to be fair I seriously doubt it, but I have a lot of fun playing mech and in contrast to bio I always feel that I can do stuff better in order to win. I uploaded a replaypack of my TvP yesterday and today, maybe someone will find it useful. The level of play is in the 650-850 points master ranks (so pretty bad), note that I'm still playing my points up and haven't hit any wall yet, in some of the replays I felt that I was just mechanically better than my opponents. I always use the same build, although it is a really bumpy build and I'm not 100% sure how to order things correctly. It goes 12 rax 13 gas (with 1 or 2 workers in it, stop mining after ~50-150 gas, not sure what is best), 14-15 scout, build 2 marines and get reactor, then command center, build a bunker at ramp. After that its time to get second gas and 2 factories. The followup pretty much depends on what you scouted earlier, if there is 2 gas and you weren't able to scout an expansion (or for certain saw that there is no expansion) you have to get 1 factory into tank first, also dont stop marine production. If you already saw an expansion, swap reactor to factory and build hellions, 2nd factory and tech lab on rax. The key to my strategy is to never stop hellion production until you get into the later stages of the game (~150 supply). Everything else is based on what I see the protoss doing while poking with my hellions. Hellions have a huge amount of advantages in TvP: - They basically contain the Protoss in the early game if he goes robo tech - You can poke regularly without losing a lot of units. This is basically a free scan because you see their unit composition, so its fine to lose a couple of hellions while doing it. - They absolutely destroy Sentries and HTs - Once you get to high unit numbers they vaporize zealots and are on a pretty even footage against stalkers because of splash and low stalker damage - Protoss has to build a lot of buildingwalls to be safe from poking and harassing hellions in the midgame - Possibility of drops in the midgame - They build incredibly fast. I mean REALLY fast. They almost build as fast as marines. Disadvantages: - Losing track or getting out of positiong with your big chunk of hellions in the main fight can lose the game instantly - Die very fast (esp. to Colossi and Archons) - Once you get to low numbers (<8) they are useless against anything but zealots/sentries/hts - Lack of good Anti Air in the Mech composition means a lot of turrets in the midgame Also I regularly get 1 more Orbital Command than I have active bases. Having a lot of MULEs and Scans really profits mech, because you have to get as much out of your bases as possible and you need scans a lot once you push. Also once you push its nice to reproduce a lot of workers which were lost in the fight. One of the most important things is to get rid of observers asap because it hurts the Robo Production a lot and as very few Protoss play against mech regularly it will also make them very nervous if they don't see what you are doing and when hellions are moving out. The most important thing to acknowledge is right in the early game. You basically have to fear 2 different things: Immortals and blink Stalkers. Blink Stalkers+Colossi are the worst thing EVER to face with mech and against a good opponent it will be an auto loss on many maps where the cliff to your main base is not protectable from all angles (like Shattered Temple). I played a TvP yesterday against very aggressive blink stalker on Shattered Temple play and I lost it right away, sadly the replay is not stored in the Recent archive so I lost it  But you always absolutely and firstly have to count their stalker numbers. If they have solely stalkers in the early game, PREPARE for it. Also start thor production very early, don't bother trying to defend stalkers with tanks. Your big advantage is that you have a huge push window in the midgame if you are able to defend their harass, because stalkers are one of the worst units against a mech ball and only like 2 thors with scvs repairing can hold a base quite well against pure stalkers. Also if you see them getting a lot of stalkers very early I'm experimenting with using the techlab rax (which is meant for ghosts in the mid game) for some marauder production early on. Not sure how that would turn out, haven't faced a lot of blink stalker protosses yet (but I'm sure I will once I get higher).Immortals are dangerous in a way that they can catch you offguard very fast and just bust through your lines extremely fast and you lose immediately. If they go Immortals, always keep track of where they are heading, don't get caught offguard. Thats one of the biggest reasons I never stop hellion production in the early and midgame. Also hellions are just good at deflecting a lot of stuff like Warp Prism harass or Chargelot warpins all around the map. Once you get a lot of hellions you can also deal with stalkers. Also, if they have robo tech: You will lose the fight hardcore if you don't prepare it exactly the way you want it to be. Your ghosts have to be positioned properly, your hellions have to poke in all the time and you can't afford to get flanked. Replaypack: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9962/TvP_Replaypack.rar Tell me what you think after you watched the replays I know they are still pretty low level replays, but I think the strategy can work up to 1000 points in master for me and there is so much that can be improved, so I'm pretty sure someone with better mechanics and better game sense could get far using it. I agree to avilo that the main problem of mech is that it is hardcore exploitable and there are a lot of problems that hellions cant solve, but I still think that hellions are the answer in TvP.The biggest problem of mech is that you have to respond very fast to different protoss techs and thats why the hellion is crucial. I haven't had a lot of trouble in my TvP games so far, as soon as I will hit a wall I can upload more losses of my strategy if some ppl here are interested. | ||
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